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  1. #1
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    Default Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Is there any safety glazing or tempered glass requirement for mirrored walls above a bathtub? This house is 6 years old. I saw no tempered stamping on the mirrors but I'm not sure if it applies here.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    I doubt it applies based on mirrored ceilings at motels not in violation.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Depends on how the mirror is mounted:

    R308.4: The Following shall be Considered Specific Hazardous
    Locations for the Purposes of Glazing:..
    Exception: The following products, materials and uses are exempt from the above hazardous locations:
    8. Mirrors and other glass panels mounted or hung on a surface that provides a continuous backing support.



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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Depends on how the mirror is mounted:

    R308.4: The Following shall be Considered Specific Hazardous
    Locations for the Purposes of Glazing:..
    Exception: The following products, materials and uses are exempt from the above hazardous locations:
    8. Mirrors and other glass panels mounted or hung on a surface that provides a continuous backing support.

    Guess that leaves out double sided tape.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Is there any safety glazing or tempered glass requirement for mirrored walls above a bathtub? This house is 6 years old. I saw no tempered stamping on the mirrors but I'm not sure if it applies here.
    I take it you are a lefty Nick?


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Looks like Nick has some coffee stains down the middle of that shirt.

    It also looks as if someone is coming out the closet.

    And don't you just love all that decorating crap they put around the tub for us to knock off.

    rick


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I take it you are a lefty Nick?
    Let's not get into politics, now!

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post

    And don't you just love all that decorating crap they put around the tub for us to knock off.

    rick
    I had one a while back where the "staging" included fake rose petals tossed around the bathroom, including inside the tub, which I had to remove, of course, before running water.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    John,

    I will raise you on your "rose petals" and throw down some "rocks in a sink".

    This is the newest thing these staging people are doing around here. Sure keeps the peeing in the sinks to a minimum.

    rick

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I take it you are a lefty Nick?
    Nope. I'm a righty. That's the mirror effect here. I wear my watch on my left wrist.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I take it you are a lefty Nick?
    Nah, it's a mirror image ...

    No, that mirror does not require safety glazing.

    The reason for safety glazing is for impact loads in breaking through glass, and when supported by a wall behind the glass, you will not break through the glass (unless you also broke through the wall).

    And, yes, that one word is key:
    R308.4: The Following shall be Considered Specific Hazardous
    Locations for the Purposes of Glazing:..

    Exception: The following products, materials and uses are exempt from the above hazardous locations:
    8. Mirrors and other glass panels mounted or hung on a surface that provides a continuous backing support.
    When stuck up with patties of Black Magic, the mirror can be broken and lead to serious injury as large pieces could come down.

    Okay, now how often do you see mirrors installed with "continuous" backing support"? Note: this is not referring to the patties of Black Magic, it is referring to the space between the mirror and the wall created by the patties of Black Magic ... i.e., the "backing support" is not "continuous", which will allow the mirror to flex under human impact loads, which could lead to the mirror breaking. The pieces stuck on the Black Magic will still be on the wall, the rest will not ...

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    .
    Is that a Coffee Pot by the basin Plugged into a Non GFCI Outlet ?
    .

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Is that a Coffee Pot by the basin Plugged into a Non GFCI Outlet ?
    What makes you think that receptacle outlet is not GFCI "protected"?

    (The receptacle is not required to be a GFCI device receptacle, just have GFCI protection.)

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Is that a Coffee Pot by the basin Plugged into a Non GFCI Outlet ?
    .

    That is funny seeing the coffee pot in the bathroom. Seeing things like that always reminds me that my daughters would never drink water from a bathroom faucet. They even brought in glasses of water to rinse after brushing. One grew out of it over the years and the other in her mid thirties will still not drink water from a bathroom faucet. She thnks it is discusting and shivers when ever she thinks of it.

    Yeah yeah, a little off subject but funny.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    John,

    I will raise you on your "rose petals" and throw down some "rocks in a sink".

    This is the newest thing these staging people are doing around here. Sure keeps the peeing in the sinks to a minimum.

    rick
    That is so dumb as the last time I saw that they were clogging the trap.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    The "backing support" on mirrors is typically provided by a fiberglass sheet glued to the back to prevent the broken mirror from coming apart, cutting someone. The next time you see a mirrored sliding closet door look at the back of it. You'll most likely see fiberglass or sometimes a thin fiberboard glued to the glass.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Is that a Coffee Pot by the basin Plugged into a Non GFCI Outlet ?
    .
    The outlet was GFI protected. The main reset was in the hall bathroom. And yes, that is a coffee pot/hot pot. The owner had bags of tea next to it. She had a chair lift on the stairs from the 1st to 2nd floor so since it appeared she had some mobility issues, she kept the pot and tea up there to limit her trips up and down the steps.

    Before my wife and I were married, we were looking at houses. One that our realtor took us into was a wreck (he said he had no idea it looked like that). The who owners were there at the time had a toaster over in their bedroom and were cooking bacon in it.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Where is the receptacle outlet serving the basin and countertop furthest away from the toilet? wouldn't think those coffee pots/hot pots would be by the toilet if there was one. Don't see one pictured.

    Ewww on the tea/etc. on the toilet privacy wall or the hot pot/coffee pots! Fountain spray of atomized water & bacteria every time that thing is flushed without the lid down. Yuck.

    Mirror support/edge clip/moulding decorative, proud of wall more than just thickness of glass usually an indication of the non-supported GLOBS of mirror/glass mastic supporting, not continuous backing on paper lined gyp board, not exception criteria should be safety.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    The "backing support" on mirrors is typically provided by a fiberglass sheet glued to the back to prevent the broken mirror from coming apart, cutting someone.

    That's not the "backing support" the code is referring to, and, I've never seen anything like that applied to the backs of mirrors which go on the walls at sinks and tubs.

    Besides, there is no exception to:
    - R308.4 Hazardous locations. The following shall be considered specific hazardous locations for the purposes of glazing:
    - - 2. Glazing in fixed and sliding panels of sliding door assemblies and panels in sliding and bifold closet door assemblies.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Besides, there is no exception to:
    - R308.4 Hazardous locations. The following shall be considered specific hazardous locations for the purposes of glazing:
    - - 2. Glazing in fixed and sliding panels of sliding door assemblies and panels in sliding and bifold closet door assemblies.
    No exception but they must conform to this:

    Mirror panels shall be 1/8" (3mm), 5/32" (4mm) or 3/16" (5mm) thick. For reach-in wardrobe closet applications the mirror panels shall be safety glazed to conform with ANSI Z97.1. For passage door applications, the mirror panels shall be safety glazed to conform with Consumer Product Safety Commission Specification 42FR1428; 16 CFR Part 1201.
    As I previously stated the mirrors are typically mounted to fiberglass to meet the specifications. I was a glazier for 7 years. On large mirrored walls or tub surrounds we used the same fiberglass mounted mirror. There is no labeling to be seen from the front of the mirror. The only way to tell it's there is to look at the back.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Huh?

    1) :
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    No exception but they must conform to this:

    "Mirror panels shall be 1/8" (3mm), 5/32" (4mm) or 3/16" (5mm) thick. For reach-in wardrobe closet applications the mirror panels shall be safety glazed to conform with ANSI Z97.1. For passage door applications, the mirror panels shall be safety glazed to conform with Consumer Product Safety Commission Specification 42FR1428; 16 CFR Part 1201."
    CFR 1201 *IS* the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which covers *safety glazing*.

    So, I said that the glass closet doors had to be safety glazing and you said no exceptions (okay so far), then said "but" ... "but they must conform to" ... the safety glazing CFR 1201??

    Is that like saying 'Yes, but, yes'?

    As I previously stated the mirrors are typically mounted to fiberglass to meet the specifications. I was a glazier for 7 years. On large mirrored walls or tub surrounds we used the same fiberglass mounted mirror. There is no labeling to be seen from the front of the mirror. The only way to tell it's there is to look at the back.
    That is not allowed* as the safety glazing mark is required to be visible AFTER glazing ... *unless possibly the mark was not covered by the backing you said, which, if it was as you said, it would hide the safety glazing mark ... ???

    Another 'Yes, but, yes.'????

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry, Please post any mandate that states safety glazed mirrors must be labeled on the front of the glass.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry, Please post any mandate that states safety glazed mirrors must be labeled on the front of the glass.

    Ken,

    Please clean your glasses and read what I wrote.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    Please clean your glasses and read what I wrote.
    § 1201.5 Certification and labeling requirements.

    (a) Manufacturers and private labelers of glazing materials covered by this part 1201 shall comply with the requirements of section 14 CPSA (15 U.S.C. 2063) and regulations issued under section 14.
    (b) [Reserved]
    (c) Organic-coated glass that has been tested for environmental exposure from one side only must bear a permanent label on the coating stating “GLAZE THIS SIDE IN” and shall bear in the central 50 percent of the surface area the following message in letters at least 1/4 inch (7 millimeters) high: “SEE PERMANENT LABEL FOR IMPORTANT MOUNTING INSTRUCTION.” The latter message shall be attached to either side of the glazing by any means which shall ensure the message will remain in place until installation.
    [42 FR 1441, Jan. 6, 1977, as amended at 45 FR 66007, Oct. 6, 1980]
    This is the labeling requirements for the regulation you cited. Even after cleaning my glasses I don't see the requirement that safety glazed mirrors must have the label visible once mounted. In fact, the mirror I've described would be considered "organic coated" and would fall under sub section (c). A similar material is described on page one of this pdf. http://www.nationalglass.com.au/cata...Section_08.pdf

    If you'd like more information I suggest you read this http://www.glasswebsite.com/publicat...0Standards.pdf
    This states, in part:
    ANSI Z97.1 specifies how to label glazing materials cut to size after manufacturing -- stock
    sheets of laminated and fire-resistant wired glass must be labeled by the manufacturer, and all
    cut-sizes of laminated, fire-resistant wired glass, and tempered glass must be labeled by the
    company producing the cut-to-size glass. The safety-film installer must label all field-applied
    organic coatings (films). Glazing materials intended for use in indoor applications only must be
    permanently marked with the words, “Indoor Use Only,” and the phrase, “Glaze This Side In,”
    on all organic-coated glass that has a specific side that should be exposed
    .
    So an organic coated mirror would have the information on the back side, the side you don't see once it's installed.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 09-23-2010 at 09:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    John,

    I will raise you on your "rose petals" and throw down some "rocks in a sink".

    This is the newest thing these staging people are doing around here. Sure keeps the peeing in the sinks to a minimum.

    rick

    I see that and wonder A) why in the h%ll would they ever do that? and 2) is there any possible way that could hide something? Then realized a few scoops of my hand could get them out of the way. How tacky.

    I think I may go into staging houses and tell people to fix things that are obviously wrong and in need of repair, and leave the rocks and petals to the new owners for installation. Then charge for my oh-so-helpful insight


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Ken,

    I thought you would go back and review the references, only I did not suspect (but I guess I should have) that you would only go back and review only one of the references.

    The glazing section in the IRC is R308. I posted only a portion of that section, specifically R308.4, but figured that you would, as you did with the other reference I posted, go back and read through the entire reference. My error, I should have been more specific and not allowed you to pick and chose, I should know that by now.

    For your reading pleasure, and so you will not have to go back and read the reference, and so you will not be able to pick and chose which reference to read: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - Section R308
    - - Glazing
    - - - R308.1 Identification.Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    - - - - - 2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.

    My apologies for over-guessing your resourcefulness.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry, The key to your previous post is:

    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    Mirrors are not tempered. At least most of them aren't because tempered mirrors are expensive and look like crap. Building plans and any glazing contractor will specify organic coated safety mirrors which will be accepted by the building official as long as it meets ANSI Z97.1 specifications.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 09-25-2010 at 07:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Mirrors are not tempered.
    Mirrors are SUPPOSED TO BE TEMPERED when installed in covered locations as they ARE GLAZING.

    R308 does not say transparent or translucent glass, mirrors not included, it simply says "Glazing".

    R308.4 which covers hazardous locations also simply says (bold and underlining are mine): "R308.4 Hazardous locations. The following shall be considered specific hazardous locations for the purposes of glazing:"

    There is NO EXEMPTION FOR MIRRORS other than "8. Mirrors and other glass panels mounted or hung on a surface that provides a continuous backing support."

    Any "mirror" which is not mounted or hung on a surface that provides CONTINUOUS backing support is not exempt.

    We finally get to the crux of the issue ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe
    I was a glazier for 7 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe
    At least most of them aren't because tempered mirrors are expensive and look like crap.
    You were a glazier for 7 years and you put cost and looks before code requirements, and you are STILL standing behind those actions? Even now that you are no longer a glazier and you are an inspector and you should KNOW doing as you did was wrong and you are refusing to change?

    I was a contractor for many years, building things as I was taught, then I became an inspector ... at which time I went "HOLY CRAP! I WAS DOING THAT WRONG all those years!", so I learned and changed.

    Building plans and any glazing contractor will specify organic coated safety mirrors which will be accepted by the building official as long as it meets ANSI Z97.1 specifications.
    And ANSI Z97.1 states, per your other post, that labeling of glazing FOR USE IN INDOOR APPLICATION ONLY - that DOES NOT ADDRESS the labeling requirements of safety glazing, and the label for safety glazing must be visible after the glazing is installed:
    ANSI Z97.1 specifies how to label glazing materials cut to size after manufacturing -- stock sheets of laminated and fire-resistant wired glass must be labeled by the manufacturer, and all cut-sizes of laminated, fire-resistant wired glass, and tempered glass must be labeled by the company producing the cut-to-size glass. The safety-film installer must label all field-applied organic coatings (films). Glazing materials intended for use in indoor applications only must be permanently marked with the words, “Indoor Use Only,” and the phrase, “Glaze This Side In,” on all organic-coated glass that has a specific side that should be exposed.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Mirrors are SUPPOSED TO BE TEMPERED when installed in covered locations as they ARE GLAZING.
    The codes you keep quoting require "safety glazing", not tempered glass. A non-tempered safety glazing does not require labeling visible after installation. In case you're having a tough time reading it,
    R308.1 Identification.Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    And ANSI Z97.1 states, per your other post, that labeling of glazing FOR USE IN INDOOR APPLICATION ONLY - that DOES NOT ADDRESS the labeling requirements of safety glazing, and the label for safety glazing must be visible after the glazing is installed:
    ANSI Z97.1 specifies how to label glazing materials cut to size after manufacturing -- stock sheets of laminated and fire-resistant wired glass must be labeled by the manufacturer, and all cut-sizes of laminated, fire-resistant wired glass, and tempered glass must be labeled by the company producing the cut-to-size glass. The safety-film installer must label all field-applied organic coatings (films). Glazing materials intended for use in indoor applications only must be permanently marked with the words, “Indoor Use Only,” and the phrase, “Glaze This Side In,” on all organic-coated glass that has a specific side that should be exposed.
    Do you see many mirrors hanging outside? I see where your confusion comes from. Where I live our bathroom mirrors are indoors.

    You were a glazier for 7 years and you put cost and looks before code requirements, and you are STILL standing behind those actions? Even now that you are no longer a glazier and you are an inspector and you should KNOW doing as you did was wrong and you are refusing to change?
    Sorry Jerry, but as a glazier I had nothing to do with the cost. That's between the client and salesperson. As far as code requirements, the organic backed mirrors do meet the requirements and were passed by the inspector in every situation they were installed; bathtub surrounds, floor to ceiling installations, full wall counter top mirrors and full closet doors. So yes, I still stand behind my actions. But since you decided to get personal, please tell us how many years experience do you have glazing?

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 09-25-2010 at 03:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    The codes you keep quoting require "safety glazing", not tempered glass. A non-tempered safety glazing does not require labeling visible after installation. In case you're having a tough time reading it,
    Ken,

    You are correct that I have sometimes interchanged the words "safety glazing" and "tempered glass" and, yes, "tempered glass" *IS* "safety glazing" and, yes, not all "safety glazing" is "tempered glass" ... HOWEVER ... it seems to be you are the one having the tough time reading it - see below, I have highlighted it in larger, bold, and red text so you will not have a tough time reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    For your reading pleasure, and so you will not have to go back and read the reference, and so you will not be able to pick and chose which reference to read: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - Section R308
    - - Glazing
    - - - R308.1 Identification.Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    - - - - - 2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.

    Ken, do you see it now? "each pane of glazing", that does not use the term "safety glazing" or the term "tempered glass", it simply refers to "as defined in Section R308.4" and then requires that each and every one, i.e., *ALL*, of the glazing in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible after glazing.

    No matter how you tried to wiggle out of it, EACH and EVERY (*ALL*) pane of glazing in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible AFTER GLAZING ... which is what I have been saying.

    Do you know understand that the label of all safety glazing in those locations is required to be visible after glazing, and, yes, that safety glazing may be tempered glass or it may be another type of safety glazing, nonetheless, though, ALL are required to have labels which are visible AFTER the glazing is installed ... do you not get that?

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry,

    The requirements do not say "EACH and EVERY (*ALL*) pane of glazing in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible AFTER GLAZING" The requirements say "EACH and EVERY (*ALL*) pane of tempered glass (except for tempered spandrel glass) in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible AFTER GLAZING".

    In fact the requirement clearly states,
    For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    I don't understand why you keep ignoring the exceptions.

    Yes, all glass in the indicated areas need to be safety glazing. That does not mean they have to be tempered. And non tempered glass safety glazing is not required to have the label visible once installed. In fact, exclusion two allows "Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation". So not even all tempered glass needs to have a permanent mark.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Lammie and other non-tempered safety glass does not require etching or perm face identification. It requires only a sticker or affidavit affixed at time of inspection, which may be removed as soon as it is passed, but should be kept on file for future inspections or needs.Its an exception that meets the rules.However the pictured mirror does not appear to meet the specifications or exceptions. It is proud of the wall, with applied edging obviously applied with splotches of glass adhesive. As is the mirror above the vanity sink area.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry,

    The requirements do not say "EACH and EVERY (*ALL*) pane of glazing in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible AFTER GLAZING" The requirements say "EACH and EVERY (*ALL*) pane of tempered glass (except for tempered spandrel glass) in those areas shall be labeled with a label which is visible AFTER GLAZING".
    Ken,

    You must be reading something other than what I have been posting ...

    *READ* the code section below, I have posted it before (above), and you and I have both referred to it, and ... well, let's look for the word "tempered glass" in the requirement for labeling which must be visible after glazing ...

    To that end I will post that part as one entire part, then post it again broken down word-by-word and see if the term "tempered glass" is in that section. I will highlight that term "tempered glass" with underlining, bold, and larger red text so we can all see it.

    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation.

    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1
    each
    pane
    of
    glazing
    installed
    in
    hazardous
    locations
    as
    defined
    in
    Section R308.4
    shall
    be
    provided
    with
    a
    manufacturer’s
    designation
    specifying
    who
    applied
    the
    designation,
    designating
    the
    type
    of
    glass
    and
    the
    safety
    glazing
    standard
    with
    which
    it
    complies,
    which
    is
    visible
    in
    the
    final
    installation.

    Gosh, Ken, I did not find anything I needed to highlight.

    Will you point it out for all of us?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry!
    If other than tempered its a LABEL, which can be removed!!!

    Just like a MATRESS TAG, it is allowed to be removed by the final purchaser, the label is allowed to be removed by the occupant after inspection!!!!! (just like the owner is allowed to remove the ENERGY GUIDE Label from appliances after delivery and installation!).

    The Mythical Matress Police, The Energy Guide Label Police, and the Code Inspector looking for the Laminated Glass/Mirror Label, do NOT mind that the LABEL for the glazing is removed AFTER INSPECTION!!!!!

    (It makes keeping clean/sanitary difficult; and the mirror or glass obstruction is unsightly, especially after its been there a while!!).

    - Section R308
    - - Glazing
    - - - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.

    Exceptions:

    1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.
    You have cut and pasted the EXCEPTIONS yourself, suggest you READ THEM, this time stop being so fixated about heat tempered safety glass, and read the last sentance of the citation AND the exceptions this time!!! More than one way to accomplish safety glass provisions, one being laminated glass.

    Enough! Give that gator jaw or pit bull jaw a rest and release, you're chewing a tire, and it was never alive!!!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-25-2010 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Inserted R308.1 with the exceptions highlighted so Jerry could read what he cut-and-pasted before without reading & comprehending!

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Wow, I never thought I'd say this but thank you H.G. But, if that mirror from the OP is an organic backed safety glass (which it probably is) nobody could tell unless they looked at the back of the mirror.

    Jerry, you keep posting the regulations but apparently are not comprehending them.

    The first line reads: " Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1"

    then that section (Section R308.1.1) reads: "For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code."

    This means that if the safety glass is not tempered glass the regulations for labeling tempered glass do not apply.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Mirror above sink area no longer above sink area.

    Fortunately... no one was living in the house... brushing their teeth at the time!

    Was glued directly to the drywall.

    With high humidity of bathroom and then "drying out", how many cycles does it take for glue to fail???

    The "black magic" pucks lost their magic..

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Charles, there's no telling how long it will take for the adhesive to fail. Realistically, there should have been mechanical fasteners along with the adhesive.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry, you keep posting the regulations but apparently are not comprehending them.

    This means that if the safety glass is not tempered glass the regulations for labeling tempered glass do not apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Jerry!
    If other than tempered its a LABEL, which can be removed!!!

    You have cut and pasted the EXCEPTIONS yourself, suggest you READ THEM,
    Ken and H. G.,

    I have read the exceptions, apparently you have not, not ALL of THAT exception which applies to all safety glazing. I will highlight that part for you.

    - Exceptions:
    - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.


    Check with your building official, ask them when the last time they have had a "certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code".

    Repeat after me: When that IS NOT done, the label for ALL safety glazing IS REQUIRED TO BE VISIBLE AFTER INSTALLATION.

    Criminey, guys. Read and understand what it says. IT DOES NOT give Cart Blanche to NOT LABEL all safety glazing such that the label is not visible after glazing. That exception is a very specific and very restrictive exception - I figured that H. G. would not miss that (but I could tell that Ken had missed it.

    When I finally got Ken to understand that ALL SAFETY GLAZING IS REQUIRED TO BE LABELED SUCH THAT THE LABEL IS VISIBLE AFTER GLAZING ...

    ALL SAFETY GLAZING IS REQUIRED to have that label, not just tempered glass - read the code, it is "REQUIRED" - ... I was going to point out that part of the exception and ask Ken what I just asked above - when was the last time, or even the first time, or even if ever, his local building department was given the information stated.

    If the building department is not given that specified information ... the label IS REQUIRED.

    I can't believe H. G. missed that part.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    I thought I would add this before someone cries foul and thinks that was not a legitimate question ...

    Ken said he was a glazier for 7 years, he should have thought of that exception right away, and if not right away then within less than the 5 days we have been discussing this, and if not within that 5 days, at the very least when H. G. pointed that exception out, but Ken did not even think of it then, Ken stated that that exception meant: "This means that if the safety glass is not tempered glass the regulations for labeling tempered glass do not apply."

    I believe that line of questioning was completely fair and legitimate given who the participants were, and it was for the benefit of all readers to work through the code, understand what was being said in the code (after all, we spend a fair amount of time here discussing and applying code to what we see), and see the final outcome of what the code says.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Charles, there's no telling how long it will take for the adhesive to fail. Realistically, there should have been mechanical fasteners along with the adhesive.
    I can tell you how long it lasted.... 15 years or over 5000 days of humidity / temperature cycles. I just wouldn't want to be washing my hands on day 5001 when gravity wins again.

    This is New Mexico where the humidity is often 20 percent or less.

    And yes it is obvious to me there should be a mechanical fastener that can support the weight of the mirror and not depend on "multi-glopping" of some adhesive.

    Charles @ PreVue Property Inspections, Santa Fe, NM
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Check with your building official, ask them when the last time they have had a "certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code".
    As I said previously Jerry, I was a glazier for 7 years and not once did the building official ever question the use of organic tempered glass when we met the above requirement.

    Repeat after me: When that IS NOT done, the label for ALL safety glazing IS REQUIRED TO BE VISIBLE AFTER INSTALLATION.
    Yes, you're finally getting it. If it is not visibly labeled it must meet the exception of Section R308.1.1. That's exactly what myself and H.G. have been saying.

    ALL SAFETY GLAZING IS REQUIRED to have that label, not just tempered glass - read the code, it is "REQUIRED" - ... I was going to point out that part of the exception and ask Ken what I just asked above - when was the last time, or even the first time, or even if ever, his local building department was given the information stated.

    If the building department is not given that specified information ... the label IS REQUIRED.
    Now you're loosing it again. You've flip flopped in two paragraphs. Your first statement says, "ALL SAFETY GLAZING IS REQUIRED to have that label, not just tempered glass - read the code, it is "REQUIRED"
    Then your second paragraph says, "If the building department is not given that specified information ... the label IS REQUIRED" Do you have any clue as to what your position is on this anymore?

    The fact is if the glass is not tempered safety glazing with a permanent mark visible after installation then it must meet the exception listed in Section R308.1.1.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken said he was a glazier for 7 years, he should have thought of that exception right away, and if not right away then within less than the 5 days we have been discussing this, and if not within that 5 days, at the very least when H. G. pointed that exception out, but Ken did not even think of it then,
    .
    What planet are you from? If you want to make me look bad at least get your time-line and sequence of events straight. This post started on the 9/21.
    • The same day I posted a reference to organic glazing.
    • The second day of this thread I posted the Consumer Product Safety Commission Specification 42FR1428.
    • The third day I posted the Safety Glazing Standards of the Glazing Association of North America
    • On 9/24 I pointed out your error when you neglected to consider the exception:
      Jerry, The key to your previous post is:

      Quote:

      - - - - Exceptions:
      - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.


      Mirrors are not tempered. At least most of them aren't because tempered mirrors are expensive and look like crap. Building plans and any glazing contractor will specify organic coated safety mirrors which will be accepted by the building official as long as it meets ANSI Z97.1 specifications.
    • HG didn't mention anything about the glazing until 9/25.
    • Why are you blaming me for not thinking of the exception right away? According to your last post the exception has no application here. Unless you've finally recognized that the exception is correct and you were mistaken. In my defense though, yes I was a glazier for 7 years, over 10 years ago. Sorry it took me a couple days to remember that one sentence in the building code.
    Ken stated that that exception meant: "This means that if the safety glass is not tempered glass the regulations for labeling tempered glass do not apply."
    That is exactly correct. Why on earth would a glazier follow the tempered glass guideline if the safety glass they're installing is organic backed or laminated safety glass and has its own guidelines that must be followed?

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 09-26-2010 at 04:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Ken,

    How many times did you provide the AHJ the required documentation to be able to apply that exception?

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    How many times did you provide the AHJ the required documentation to be able to apply that exception?
    Never. As a glazier I never provided or even spoke with the AHJ. The type of glass was mandated by the architect. We provided the glass and installed it. We supplied the documentation to the general contractor who (I would imagine) supplied them to the AHJ. Literally thousands of times. One high rise condo complex had over 500 living units. Each unit received a full wall mirror in the bathroom with a two piece mirrored tub surround. So over 1500 pieces of organic backed safety glass, all documented, all given to the general contractor and all passed by the AHJ.

    How many times did you provide the AHJ the required documentation and have the AHJ refuse it? Oh that's right, you've never installed glass professionally.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Hi, ALL &

    Now, then - getting back to the issue of food-preparation in a Bathroom - I heard the expression "toilet coffee" just this weekend, during a conversation after dinner.

    They were talking about the scenario where one goes into a typical old-style Motel bathroom & see that typical coffee service on the counter...

    Now I "get it" !


    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Six years old.....That gold is sooooo 80's

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry, you've gone off the deep end again. Double speak, posting in circles, with flawed spiraling logic and twisting what you've both said and failed to state, as well as mistating the preserved and evident historical sequence of posting events in a forum where posts are date and time stamped is disingenuous.

    The label is NOT required to be permanent. It is required to be self-destructive if removal is attempted, i.e. so it may not be removed and then applied to another surface.

    IF that label from the manufacturer of the safety glazing is visable upon inspection - post installation, there is NO requirement that it remain in place (the label) AFTER that inspection.Mfg's labeling esp. referencing standards and certifications, IS sufficient.

    Acid etching, laser engraving, permanently visable after installation for all time, is NOT required for ALL forms of safety glazing!!!

    Ken, you're welcome, and yes, even a broken 12-hour analog time piece is right in its display of time twice a day; and a blinking, unprogrammed (I know old-school) VCR is right once a day! Don't let it throw you.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-30-2010 at 07:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The label is NOT required to be permanent. It is required to be self-destructive if removal is attempted, i.e. so it may not be removed and then applied to another surface.

    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.

    I would say that "which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed" is a good explanation of "permanent".

    1per·ma·nent
    adj \-nənt\
    Definition of PERMANENT
    : continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable

    If the label, once applied, "cannot be removed without being destroyed", then the label is "continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change". Once the label is removed the label is destroyed, and in that sense everything which is considered permanent can be destroyed and fundamentally changed, yet those things are still referred to as "permanent".

    Based on your thinking, *nothing* is "permanent" other than matter itself as "matter" cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form into another form.

    IF that label from the manufacturer of the safety glazing is visable upon inspection - post installation, there is NO requirement that it remain in place (the label) AFTER that inspection.Mfg's labeling esp. referencing standards and certifications, IS sufficient.

    Acid etching, laser engraving, permanently visable after installation for all time, is NOT required for ALL forms of safety glazing!!!
    Quite incorrect as a statement. That is only correct with specific qualification, as in the exception to R308.1 I posted above:

    - Exceptions:
    - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    - - 2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.

    As I stated above to Ken, 1. only applies where the building official has been provided with "a certificate, affidavit, or other evidence" and where the building official has approved the use of that in place of a label for other than tempered glass. That exception, exception 1., is not an automatic exception to not label safety glazing other than tempered, and when that evidence is not provided and/or the building official does not approve that evidence, the label must conform to the labeling requirements.

    IF that label from the manufacturer of the safety glazing is visable upon inspection - post installation, there is NO requirement that it remain in place (the label) AFTER that inspection.
    See Exception 2. as posted above. That is the same as Exception 1. in that it is a very specific exception and exception 2. *only* applies to "Tempered spandrel glass", not to other safety glazing in other uses.

    You made a blanket statement which is untrue as stated. Both sections are ONLY TRUE when applied in accordance with the proper and applicable exception.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.

    I would say that "which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed" is a good explanation of "permanent".

    1per·ma·nent
    adj \-nənt\
    Definition of PERMANENT
    : continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable

    If the label, once applied, "cannot be removed without being destroyed", then the label is "continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change". Once the label is removed the label is destroyed, and in that sense everything which is considered permanent can be destroyed and fundamentally changed, yet those things are still referred to as "permanent".

    Based on your thinking, *nothing* is "permanent" other than matter itself as "matter" cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form into another form.


    Jerry Peck,

    You stuck one foot in your virtual "mouth" with your proclamation that all safety glazing, mirrored MUST BE TEMPERED, which is of course WRONG.

    I really don't care what YOU say, because of course, you are wrong.

    Perhaps for Peck's back-water carnival fun-house mirror maze but not in the residential bathroom and not required by the code section you keep quoting, twisting, and now are inserting a word which doesn't exist in it! I really don't CARE what YOU think permanent means, it has no relavance to the topic.

    Now, you've crammed your other virtual "foot in mouth" with that latest post!

    THE REQUIREMENT refers to a NON-TRANSFERABLE Designation (LABEL, decal, etc.). This is of course why it may also be a PAPER designation.

    There is NO requirement that the Designation be PERMANENT as in to outlast the transport, installation, and inspection of said installation.

    There is no requirement that the material - specifically the GLAZING, will be destroyed when said DESIGNATION is removed!

    A label, decal, or DESIGNATION as in the typeS described AS PERMISSIBLE as in "SHALL BE ___, OR BE...", is one that when applied to the glazing cannot be later removed and re-applied either to the original glazing surface or transfered to yet another - the self-destructive upon removal attempt is to make the designation (label, etc.) unusable or DEFACED, so as to make it visually apparent should it be attempted to be applied elsewhere THAT IT WAS NOT applied by the manufacturer AND IS NOT A LEGIT DESIGNATION!! Another is the type of adhesive, such as fixative as opposed to fugative with a paper label - so that the paper thus bonded will peel/rip/disfigure when attempted to be removed or floated off!

    THAT (REMOVABLE DESIGNATION) IS ALLOWED on the VISABLE FACE so that it can be seen after install INSPECTION, and MAY THEN BE REMOVED. Some WILL allow the installer to remove PRE-INSPECTION and will accept a CERTIFICATION FROM THE INSTALLER that the mfg designation was in place upon the material from mfg at time of installation.

    It (the label/designation) must not be able to be removed WITHOUT BEING DESTROYED (THE LABEL must be destroyed when removed, NOT THE GLAZING!!!!!). The glazing is allowed to remain installed, and intact when the paper label is removed! The label must not be able to be applied or reapplied to a surface once it (the label - thus the mfg's designation) is removed from the glazing!

    I'll make it SIMPLE for you, its like a split face price tag or a license plate (vehicle) renewal tag - it will split into pieces when you peel it: making it less likely to be able to be "lifted" off of one surface and "afixed" to yet another (product of a greater price - or another license plate, thus faking the price reduction, or in the case of the license plate faking your having paid for the renewal and/or submited/passed the safety and/or emissions testing, etc.). Obviously that wouldn't be the case with a fugative glued label or a static label - and SUCH would NOT be allowed.

    You are flat out in error in your assertions and your continued attempts at supporting your postering "positions" are further erroneous.

    There are TWO exceptions, note the plurality of the word exceptionS.

    There is no conjunction between those exceptionS, each has a PERIOD. The exceptionS may be independant in its/their application as an exception to the section.

    Despite your highlighting of limited portions of phrases and sentances, you cannot IGNORE the remaining portion of the phrase, compound nouns, etc.

    The paper label and OTHER forms of NON-PERMANENT labeling is referenced IN THE SECTION PRIOR to the exceptionS: it follows a comma and begins with the word "or"!!!! It completes the SENTANCE that you constantly fail to read through to its conclusion (period)"." and has YET another final sentance to the section!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-30-2010 at 08:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There are TWO exceptions, note the plurality of the word exceptionS.
    I see you got out your large colored crayons again.

    Too back you do not know how to use them to write yet.

    There is no conjunction between those exceptionS, each has a PERIOD. The exceptionS may be independant in its/their application as an exception to the section.
    Huh ... H. G., did you even read what I wrote? *I* pointed out that there were TWO exceptions, and that they WERE DIFFERENT, and that NEITHER APPLIED unless ... UNLESS the exception was met. And there has been no evidence that the exception which MAY BE met has actually been met, and using your large colored crayons does not change that.

    In your previous post you started to drift off into "HISTORICALLY", so, let's continue there ...

    HISTORICALLY no GFCI protection was required, thus you are trying to say that no GFCI protection is now required BECAUSE it was not required HISTORICALLY?

    Or that HISTORICALLY when GFCIs were first installed the electrical contractors removed them right after passing inspections because those first GFCI failed so often, and therefore GFCI protection is not required BECAUSE it was not installed HISTORICALLY?

    HISTORICALLY mirrors in safety glass area has been installed wrong (not evidence submitted to the building official mean that the label was required to be permanent - see your very good definition of permanent and how it applied to those labels, as I pointed out.

    HISTORICALLY how something was done incorrectly does not mean that it is allowed NOW, TODAY, OR TOMORROW.

    Here is another example: Yesterday I was inspecting an addition to a house and discovered that the bathroom receptacle circuit was only on a 15 amp breaker and #14 NM cable ... the electrician stated that - get this now, this is HISTORICALLY related - the electrician stated that he has ALWAYS BEEN ALLOWED TO GET AWAY with installing 15 amp circuits to bathrooms ... there is that HISTORICALLY thingy again, and it does not mean diddly squat.

    Today I did a re-inspection and the bathroom receptacle is now on a 20 amp circuit from another bathroom in the house (the only way the electrician could get a 20 amp circuit for the new bathroom).

    HISTORICALLY speaking does not mean diddly squat when it is WRONG TODAY.

    Jeez, usually you are sharp enough to get those nuances in the code and requirements.

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  51. #51
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    This thread has turned into the energizer bunnies cousin. It just keeps going and going and going.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Obviously Jerry you are incapable of seeing what is plainly written in the code section you quote over and over.

    You were the first to grab modified AND colored type, underlining, bolding, and yes, even the stupendous stunt of using huge band width to use a return for each word.

    You are frankly being a stubborn and intentionally blind mule or jackass, and insulting. It is YOU who DO NOT READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, even in the code sections you cut and paste.

    Use of an exception is NOT NECESSARY regarding using a label which splits or deforms when removed.

    When a piece of premanufactured glass is CUT it is remanufactured. When same is LAMINATED or organically coated, IT IS being REMANUFACTURED. Unlike Heat tempered glass which must be cut THEN TEMPERED - so it cannot be remanufactured once tempered - only installed.

    Once that glass or mirror is cut, edged AND COATED that party can AFIX a self-destructive DESIGNATION that MEETS THE STANDARDS SO DESIGNATED - the backside (not visable upon installation) marking has its own DIFFERENT requirement. That EXPOSED label (MEANT TO BE TEMPORARY IN THAT IT MAY BE REMOVED WHEN NO LONGER REQUIRED - BUT WHEN REMOVED will deface or self-destruct so cannot be reapplied to another surface without being obviously defaced; IS WHAT 308.1 REQUIRES AND ALLOWS. You do NOT have to go to the exceptions of 308.1.1 or 308.1.2: ITS IN 308.1. The exception of 308.1.1 is for when a REMOVABLE DESIGNATION has NOT been afixed. 308.1 NOT THE EXCEPTION, PROVIDES FOR EVEN A PAPER LABEL.


    I have no idea why the "HISTORICALLY"/ "HISTORICAL" rant.

    Again, your attempts at craming words in other's "virtual mouths" are mere smoke screens for the fact you've got both your feet in your own mouth while you've also got something stuck up something else. De-cork yourself and try reading what the code actually says. Mirrors are NOT required to be tempered, and non-heat tempered safety glass or mirrors are NOT required to be permamently designated. 308.1 does not use the word permanent, doesn't matter how many dictionary citations of the word permanent you wish to plagerize - the word permanent isn't in the code section. The word the code section uses is DESIGNATION, and that DESIGNATION has to be present or visable upon the final installation. One second after that final installation that Designation is ALLOWED TO BE REMOVED. It is better to wait until the final CODE INSPECTION and Certificate be issued BEFORE removing the DESIGNATION.


  53. #53
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Obviously Jerry you are incapable of seeing what is plainly written in the code section you quote over and over.
    Jeez, H. G., I guess I DO need to spell that code section and that exception for you. Crimeny.

    This is what the code says is required - plain and simply:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - Section R308
    - - Glazing
    - - - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.
    The above part says that ALL GLAZING in those areas "SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH" permanent labeling (and for you, that would be defined as 'if the label is removed, the label shall be destroyed in the removal process, it seems you can understand that concept better, so we can go with that for your convenience) ... "SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH" - "except", yes, "Except" ... as in "Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1".

    That means we now must go to the exception R308.1.1, as I originally quoted below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    Okay, the first part says the label "SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH", and the exception says that, "for other than tempered glass" - this means this exception does not apply to tempered glass ... for other than tempered glass the labeling is not required *IF* (yes, that is what "provided" means) ... *IF* documentation is provided to the building official *AND* *IF* (yes, that is two *IFs* which must be met) ... *IF* the building official APPROVES the evidence submitted.


    That means there are TWO requirements: a) the evidence MUST BE SUBMITTED to the building official, and b) the building official MUST APPROVE the evidence.

    IF *BOTH* of those TWO *are not done* (i.e., doing one does not count, neither does doing neither of them), the exception does not apply.

    Do you understand that?

    IF those two requirements are not done, then the exception DOES NOT APPLY.

    Q. When the exception does not apply what is required?
    A. "each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with" a label.

    "shall be provided with" the required label.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    My apologies for over-guessing your resourcefulness.
    The historical direction was to follow up on your reference to historically ... it does not matter what has been done historically, it matters what is required, and if it has historically been done wrong, it needs to be done right from this point on.

    Do you get it now?

    I can get the crayons out and color a picture for you if you need one.


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 10-02-2010 at 01:29 PM.
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  54. #54
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jeez, H. G.,

    ...

    The above part says that ALL GLAZING in those areas "SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH" permanent labeling



    NO IT DOESN'T.

    The word "Permanent" is NOT in that part. It is a figment of your own imaginations.

    The word "designation" appears in that part, NOT the word permanent.



    Do you get it now?


    I can get the crayons out and color a picture for you if you need one.


    Okay crayola away, here I'll make it easy for you....

    SHOW ME THE WORD PERMANENT as relates to the DESIGNATION in the section....

    - Section R308
    - - Glazing
    - - - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.




  55. #55
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The word "Permanent" is NOT in that part.
    You gave a very good definition/explanation of "permanent" yourself. Are you now disagreeing with yourself?

    H. G., you are circling the wagons, but it is too late, you have already exposed that you are lost.

    SHOW ME THE WORD PERMANENT as relates to the DESIGNATION in the section....

    Again, YOU provided the very good definition/explanation as to me using the work "permanent" with the code word, and I thanked you for that excellent work.

    Now you are trying to change and hide behind word "designation" where I have been using the word "label" - the way the code uses "designation" is the same way I have been using "label". The code does not use "label" as some take "label" to mean something which can easily be applied or removed, and the code prohibits that, the code requires that *marking* (i.e., "label" or "designation") to be *permanent* (again, see your explanation of what that is).

    The code's use of "designation" is 1: and 3: below, which is the same thing the "label" that I am referring to does.

    des·ig·na·tion noun \ˌde-zig-ˈnā-shən\
    Definition of DESIGNATION
    1: the act of indicating or identifying
    2: appointment to or selection for an office, post, or service
    3: a distinguishing name, sign, or title
    4: the relation between a sign and the thing signified

    You've circled your wagons, repeated yourself so many times, it is apparent you are down to your last rounds of ammunition, I'm expecting one more final burst from your Gatling gun as you flail away at the sunset ... and there will be no one out there to hear your final gasps ...

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 10-03-2010 at 11:26 AM.
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  56. #56
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    And going and going and going and going and going


  57. #57
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Jerry, Many people on this site rely on the information given. It affects their livelihood. When you give erroneous information, simply admit it, apologize, and move on. When you grandstand, twist meanings and double-talk it does nothing but hurt the members here.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry, Many people on this site rely on the information given. It affects their livelihood. When you give erroneous information, simply admit it, apologize, and move on. When you grandstand, twist meanings and double-talk it does nothing but hurt the members here.

    Ken,

    The mirrors in the hazardous locations at the hotel I am staying at are ... permanently marked (using "marked" instead of "labeled" for H. G.'s benefit) and the label (the marking) is visible after installation ... even though you are still insisting that is not required.

    I am not providing erroneous information, the information is correct. One needs to be able to understand and read the code and what the words mean, and to avoid repeating everything again (Ted is already going ... going ... going ). I suggest you go back and reread the above code and posts again.

    The code REQUIRES that marking *IF* the exceptions are not met as specifically worded. Just because you did not install glazing so marked does not mean you met code with that glazing - all it means is that you installed glazing which was not marked (not "labeled").

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  59. #59
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Just because you did not install glazing so marked does not mean you met code with that glazing
    It doesn't mean that code was not met either. Maybe the glazier followed the exception. There is no way for a home inspector to know 5 years after the home was built.


    The mirrors in the hazardous locations at the hotel I am staying at are ... permanently marked
    Last I checked hotels were built to commercial code, not residential. Two totally different animals.

    Please stop giving erroneous information.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    He can't help himself, Ken.

    He'll M.S.U. until he's blue in the face because there is NO such requirement for non-heat-tempered safety glass INDOORS residential, to be bear a permanently visible designation which outlasts beyond the installation and CODE INSPECTION of the intitial installation.

    That's one of the main reasons for the provision for an affidavit in the first exception, if the designation is inadvertantly removed prior to final clearance by the AHJ; subject to the AHJ's approval (they may accept from installer A but not B for example if installer B has a questionable "history" or lack thereof with the AHJ relative to such "certifications/affidavits", or an overall "cred" problem with a particular builder, contractor, project, development, swapping/reusing paperwork/invoices for multiple locations/properties, "cutting corners", etc.) and not force Joe Homeowner to have removed, tossed, and re-installed, because the PAPER LABEL designation was removed or defaced before final inspection on say a remodel or addition project.


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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Last I checked hotels were built to commercial code, not residential. Two totally different animals.

    Please stop giving erroneous information.

    Ken,

    You really need to get your facts straight, I have not given up on you as I have on the hot head H. G. - you erroneously stated that they are "Two totally different animals." while in fact the two codes (IBC and IRC) say the same thing.

    I am, of course, presuming that you have read the IBC requirements, after all, you did say you did glazing under the IBC: "One high rise condo complex had over 500 living units. Each unit received a full wall mirror in the bathroom with a two piece mirrored tub surround."

    Thus you would know that they are, in respect to safety glazing and hazardous locations, treated the same.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Yes, I know what they are. The problem is you don't, but continue to spew false information, even when the codes are right in front of you.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    'S funny. I just ran into one today. Well, didn't really "run"...

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    Don't bother Ken, he'll never admit he's a mule with cognitive and comprehension problems.

    He can't find permanently visable upon installation in the code he keeps cutting and pasting because it doesn't exist. But that little fact won't stop napoleonic Peck with NPD.

    You have to remember he insisted back on post 28 that all safety mirrors in bathrooms had to be made from TEMPERED GLASS too!!!!

    He can't find the "permanent" in the section he's so oft quoted, and doesn't remember where he saw the word used, AND is too lazy to READ what you've already provided to him (since he couldn't find it himself) as to what IS required to be permanent, and WHERE - and that it IS NOT VIEWABLE UPON INSTALLATION.

    Remember he's never seen organic coatings or laminations, he said that early on before he insisted only Tempered glass could be used for mirrors in bathrooms required to be safety glazing.

    He can't "get" that the "indoor use only" and glaze "THIS SIDE IN" which are required to be marked permanently ARE NOT VIEWABLE UPON INSTALLATION because they are on the backside of such a MIRROR!!!

    The "designation" viewable upon installation required by the code section which has been discussed over and over again does NOT create an etching, laser, or other PERMANENT designation on the viewable area of the INDOOR safety glazing post-installation, that is of course why PAPER LABELS are allowed by the last sentance of the code section for said "viewable" DESIGNATION, and that it (label on face) is not required to REMAIN for any longer than the building official signs off on the installation.

    He's been wrong so much in this thread and flinging personal attacks that he can't see he's the dung beetle playing king of the hill on his own pile of crap.Now he'll continue to bury his own erroneous remarks in bull crap rather than admit he's wrong. That's why his crapola about colored type or his fictitious summary of prior posts or events is even more special, along with his accusitions that others cannot read, understand, etc.

    The code doesn't say what HE (Jerry Peck) thinks it says or thinks it should say, because he doesn't know the distinctions with differences in safety glazing materials and locations bearing same.

    Remember - he thinks ALL safety glass/mirror glass is heat-tempered, indoor residential or not!!!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-04-2010 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Mirrored Walls Above Tub

    HG, the problem I have at this point is somebody reading his comments might actually use this misinformation on an inspection report.

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