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  1. #1
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    Default Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Just wondering if plastic is suitable thru a seperation wall like in this application. I know commercial can require an intumescent material in these applications. Just wondering...







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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    The short answer is Yes. In the IBC, section 712 explains it.

    Of course, you photo does not meet the requirements of section 712.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Just wondering if plastic is suitable thru a seperation wall ...

    The key word there is "separation" wall.

    That, and all penetrations through the "separation" wall, needs to be caulked and sealed around.

    The following is from the IRC (yes, I know there is one here who will jump in and say that you are in CA and that the IRC does not apply and that one should ONLY reference the code which applies - but it is my understanding that we are all professionals here and that GUIDANCE is what is needed, and the following will provide that GUIDANCE, and, if you so chose, you can follow-up in the CA for the exact code requirement based on that guidance - my apologies for that short rant, but we have a poster here to whom that is specifically directed to):
    - R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.


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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Short answer below to separation of post by "======".

    Firestop collar required for plastic pipe penetrations (i.e. PVC, ABS, etc.) at occupancy separation wall. Fire collar must be T-rated for 1-hour wall (CBC 712.3, CPC 1504.1)

    Plastic washing machine water pipe boxes are not allowed on garage side of rated wall. (CPC).


    Definitions, Title 24, Part 2, Chapter 7:

    "T" rating. Time period that the penetration firestop system, including the penetrating item, limits the maximum temperature rise to 325 degrees F (163 degrees C) above its initial temperature throught the penetration on the non fire side when tested in accordance with ASTM E 814.

    =========

    FIRE RATED ASSEMBLIES
    One hour floor-ceiling or roof-ceiling systems

    CBC specifies: Modified 1 hour fire-resistive construction: ("R-3" Dwelling and "U" Garage separation):

    -1/2" gypsum board on garage side of walls and is attic. CBC 406.1.4
    -5/8" type x gypsum board on garage ceiling (if garage is beneath habital rooms)
    -Fasteners shall not be spaced less than 3/8" from edges and ends of wall board.
    -Gypsum panels shall be installed with moderate contact at all joints and full overlap of corners.
    -Fire-resistant rated assemblies shall have joints and fasteners treated/mud & tape. CBC 2508.4
    -Firestop collar required for plastic pipe penetrations (i.e. PVC, ABS, etc.) at occupancy separation wall. Fire collar must be T-rated for 1-hour wall CBC 712.3, CPC 1504.1
    -Electrical panel shall be fire rated except in out or surface mounted.
    -Plastic washing machine water pipe boxes are not allowed on garage side of rated wall. CPC
    -fire rated access panel above garage must maintain fire rating if applicable. CBC 712.3
    -Ducts penetrating occupancy separation rated wall to be 26 gage sheet metal CBC 406.1.4(2)
    -Furnace and water heater occupancy separation: (Garage side walls and platform): 1/2" gypsum board on garage side of walls and its attic. (CBC 406.1.4)


    Most often missed:
    -Joints shall be staggered on opposite sides of the framing members. For a membrane penetration with fire collar for plastic piping - there should be no seams on the opposite sides of the framing members.
    -Sheetrock shall be installed perpenndicular to framing members. CBC 2508.3
    -Electrical outlet maximum setback 1/4" from drywall face and no side gaps more than 1/8" to electrical outlet. CEC 314.20, 314.21.
    -Dedicated space and separation/blocking in joist bay, electrical vs. DWV vs. ducting.

    2006 Fire Resistance Design Manual, Gypsum Association 216-2007
    2007 California Building Code (especially Part 2 of Title 24, chapter 7) and including plumbing subcode and electrical subcode.

    If this is a true smoke wall or fire wall between townhome occupancies, for example, no penetrations, membrane or through, are allowed of the plastic DWV.

    Also restrictions/requirements are different if this is a fire rated assembly/wall/setback to lot line.

    IIRC Calif doesn't begin to use I-codes with california ammendments until after the 1st of the new year. Calif. specifies an occupancy separation (garage being "U") of a modified 1-hour wall.


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-24-2010 at 09:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    I get that it should be sealed. I get the T & F ratings, I also know of "W & L", but dont get where they apply this to residential applications. I have never seen a wrap straps, collar, puddy or pillow in a residential app. Collars and chokes are correct for this app, but again, residential? The principal idea is so if the plastic is melted the intumescent material will fill the void. If you fill the void with FR caulk, w/o collar, it's useless.
    My city adapts the IRC in a few days. A little easier to digest. Maybe I will send the report after that

    BTW, 712.3.1 I saw this. I didnt catch the word plastic anywhere. CBC 07? Are you referring to tubes as plastic?
    Exception: Where the penetrating items are steel, ferrous or copper pipes,
    tubes or conduits, the annular space between the penetrating item and the
    fire-resistance-rated wall is permitted to be protected as follows...

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    My city adapts the IRC in a few days. A little easier to digest. Maybe I will send the report after that
    Actually, it probably doesn't. It will likely adopt the CRC, which is somewhat modified from the IRC. Mostly the same.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in separation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    BTW, 712.3.1 I saw this. I didnt catch the word plastic anywhere. CBC 07? Are you referring to tubes as plastic?
    Exception: Where the penetrating items are steel, ferrous or copper pipes, tubes or conduits, the annular space between the penetrating item and the fire-resistance-rated wall is permitted to be protected as follows...
    No, "tubes" is not referring to plastic. That exception is referring to 'metal' (steel, ferrous or copper) "pipes, tubes or conduits".

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Good point Gunner. Thanks Jerry. That's what I thought, but just wanted to see where HG got plastic.
    HG, what version of the CBC /CPC are you looking?

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    I really do't know why you'd skip the language of the actual subsection, and read on into an inapplicable exception (metallic pipe penetrations) and completely ignore the actual subsection(s) that would apply to plastic DWV pipe, esp. ABS? Since you seem to be stuck, try reading ALL of chapter 7 and subsection 712, and go back and refer to the other citations in the CPC subcode.

    I cited which version I was referring to up in the post -sigh- I also applied the language for you presuming it was just a penetration to (membrane or through) an occupancy separation between R-3 and U (attached garage) modified wall (I said this too). You haven't indicated this was an incorrect presumption.

    The language you cite is an exception from 712.3.1, which does NOT apply to plastic pipe penetrations (through or membrane)! You did NOT read the actual language of 712.3.1 )which refers you also to 712.3.2, 712.3.3 and 712.3.4), or 712.3.1.1 or 712.3.1.2

    Sheesh, HERE IT IS (I've not bothered with the inapplicable, red is my notes/comments regarding same). Pay special attention to what I have highlighted in blue. Its up to you to review the other citations. When citing a section, or a subsection, - I refer to ALL of it (including its further subdivisions).

    712.2 Installation details.
    Where sleeves are used, they shall be securely fastened to the assembly penetrated. The space between the item contained in the sleeve and the sleeve itself and any space between the sleeve and the assembly penetrated shall be protected in accordance with this section. Insulation and coverings on or in the penetrating item shall not penetrate the assembly unless the specific material used has been tested as a part of the assembly in accordance with this section. (not evidenced in this installation)

    Note: As you read below, you will see that both membrane penetrations (defers to through penetrations subsection, sub) and through penetrations are handled by reference to the same ultimate sub sub.

    712.3. Fire-resistance-rated walls.
    Penetrations into or through fire walls, fire-barrier walls, smoke-barrier walls and fire partitions shall comply with Sections 712.3.1 through 712.3.4

    -712.3.1 Through penetrations.
    Through penetrations of fire-resistance-rated walls shall comply with Section 712.3.1.1 or 7.12.3.1.2
    Exception (my note - doesn't apply to plastic pipe): Where the penetrating items are steel, ferrous or copper pipes, tubes or conduits, the annular space between the pentrating item and the fire-resistance-rated wall is permitted to be protected as follows:
    (Not bothering citing the exception conditions, they do not apply, as the pipe is plastic.)

    --712.3.1.1 Fire-resistance-rated assemblies.
    Penetrations shall be installed as tested in an approved fire-resistance-rated assembly.

    --712.3.1.2 Through-penetration firestop system.
    Through penetrations shall be protected by an approved penetration firestop system installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E 814 or UL 1479, with a minimum positive pressure differential of 0.01 inch (2.49 Pa) of water and shall have an F rating of not less than the required fire-resistance rating of the wall penetrated.

    -712.3.2 Membrane penetrations.
    Membrane penetrations shall comply with Section 712.3.1. Where walls or partitions are required to have a fire-resistance rating, recessed fixtures shall be installed such that the required fire resistance will not be reduced.
    Exceptions: (don't apply)
    1. Membrane penetrations of maximum two-hour fire-resistance-rated walls and partitions by steel electrical boxes....(doesn't apply, skipping the rest).
    2. Membrane penetrations by listed electrical boxes of any material, provided such boxes have been tested for use in fire-resistance-rated assemblies...(doesn't apply, skipping the rest).
    3. The annual pace created by the penetration of an automatic sprinkler, provided it is covered by a metal escutcheon plate. (doesn't apply).

    -712.3.3 Ducts and air transfer openings.
    (Doesn't apply, skipping the rest.)

    -712.3.4 Dissimilar materials.
    Noncombustible penetrating items shall not connect to combustible items beyond the point of firestopping unless it can be demonstrated that the fire-resistance integrity of the wall is maintained.

    To apply the response I referred to much more than JUST what is quoted above, the above just directs you to the application, as does the CPC citation.

    When in doubt, you can ALWAYS inquire at the local office.



    HTH, happy new year.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-25-2010 at 10:31 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Good point Gunner. Thanks Jerry. That's what I thought, but just wanted to see where HG got plastic.
    HG, what version of the CBC /CPC are you looking?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Just wondering if plastic is suitable thru a seperation wall like in this application. I know commercial can require an intumescent material in these applications. Just wondering...

    Your picture shows obviously NOT metallic, and you were quite clear that the penetration was PLASTIC in your post.

    The citations and applied initially was for penetrations OTHER than metallic pipe, tube, conduit, etc.

    That includes PLASTIC, ABS DWV. See also citations for CPC.

    If you're now claiming the questioned penetration (membrane or through) is metallic - well you've changed your representations. However, as pictured, I doubt that it is metallic, as evidenced in the photo.

    Please read the actual cited subsection 712.3, completely and carefully, then apply. Thanks. You skipped 712.3.1 and fixtated on an exception thereto which doesnot apply, and missed 712.3.1.1 & 712.3.1.2, 712.3.2 and 712.3.4.

    Have a great week.


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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Thanks H.G,
    I will read the entire section. How come were in the CBC and not the CRC?

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    You tell me.


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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    I fear to answer...here goes.
    The CRC is new and is a separate document applicable to detached one & two family dwellings. This Code covers all structural requirements for
    “conventional construction” and non-structural aspects of dwelling construction.
    The requirements for Multi-family residential projects are found in the CBC. Townhouses (not more than three stories) are included in the Residential Code.






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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Thanks H.G,How come were in the CBC and not the RC?
    For some reason, in 2007 CA adopted the IBC (with specific changes) and renamed it the CBC.

    The explanation that I heard (and have no reason to doubt) is that when the International codes were written, the least restrictive wording was used. So, for example, if one code said the maximum stair riser is 7" and another said 8", the least restrictive was used, in this case 8". As a result, some of the requirements in CA (formerly using the UBC) would have become less restrictive. Consequently, CA chose to not adopt the IRC.

    Now, in 2011, CA has perused the 2009 IRC and made the modifications that they feel is necessary to call it the 2010 CRC. But, one of the really nice parts of the IRC is that it includes electrical, mechanical and plumbing in addition to the building code. Unfortunately, the CRC does not and it is still necessary to have the NEC, UMC and UPC in order to remodel a bathroom.

    Hope this helps

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Well stated Mr. gunner.
    So I wonder why my city chose to adopt the IRC beginning 1-1-11. Compared to CRC/CBC, it's seems less restrictive.
    BTW, nice place to have to work Mr Gunner. Must be tough to have to get up every day in such a beautiful area.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Well stated Mr. gunner.
    So I wonder why my city chose to adopt the IRC beginning 1-1-11. Compared to CRC/CBC, it's seems less restrictive.
    BTW, nice place to have to work Mr Gunner. Must be tough to have to get up every day in such a beautiful area.
    Marc,

    So what city are you in anyway? I had thought that the cities in CA were required to adopt the California code. Wrong again, I guess.

    Yes, it is a really nice place to live and work. I particularly like the country properties on the west side of the county. Rolling hills, vineyards. Late fall gets a bit stinky when the start spreading the manure, but otherwise a great area.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Maybe a little clarification?? If this is residential -detached single family, why are some citing code from the IBC and not the IRC? I am also assuming this is a wall between garage and house, which is not-at least in my opinion- a rated wall or assembly??

    Section 309.1.2 Pentrations through the separation required in section 309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetration item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.

    Help with clarification please...

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Gunner, we're in SCV, (magic mountain). No rolling hills or vineyards but one this is the same, with the treatment plant close by, it does smell like crap here on occasion also. I dunno if all cities are required, but I was told by the building & safety Dept a month ago we were switching.
    Door Guy,
    This is a SFD. and I agree. I didnt think it was a rated assembly or system.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Gunner,

    "The California State Building Standards Commission voted unanimously by a margin of 10-0 in favor of adopting the 2010 California Residential Code, which includes the 2009 International Residential Code as established by the International Code Council in September 2008".

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    Maybe a little clarification?? If this is residential -detached single family, why are some citing code from the IBC and not the IRC?
    Door Guy,

    I thought my post above explained this. California did not adopt the IRC. The only available building code was the 2007 CBC which was based on the 2006 IBC. Prior to that, the building code here was based on the old and out of date 1997 UBC. At the beginning of 2011, CA will begin to enforce the CRC which is based on the structural/building portion of the 2009 IRC. It includes a number of modifications that bring it in line with current CA requirements.

    Quoting an unenforced code in CA is pointless.

    In short, the politicians got involved in a building process.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Door Guy,

    I thought my post above explained this. California did not adopt the IRC. The only available building code was the 2007 CBC which was based on the 2006 IBC. Prior to that, the building code here was based on the old and out of date 1997 UBC. At the beginning of 2011, CA will begin to enforce the CRC which is based on the structural/building portion of the 2009 IRC. It includes a number of modifications that bring it in line with current CA requirements.

    Quoting an unenforced code in CA is pointless.

    In short, the politicians got involved in a building process.
    Hi Gunnar, so CA adopted the Building Code in 2007 but not the SFD detached residential code? In Michigan, we have done something similar, patterned after the IBC and IRC. It's really just the International codes with minor changes, like the stairway rise and run... I find it odd that they adopted the Building code but not the Residential code back in 2007? It doesn't make sense. Bet that makes things a little interesting!

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Door Guy;

    Being in NJ, I always reference this FTO when dealing with garage separation walls. I just assumed he was referring to a garage wall.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Door guy,
    Hello, . Just wondering what does the door guy mean?

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Door guy,
    Hello, . Just wondering what does the door guy mean?
    Hi Marc, I was a builder for over 23 years and I invented a product for installing doors call EZ-Hang door brackets. So I just go by Door Guy on forums. EZ-Hang simplifes installing doors and eliminates shims. That's all I'll say... don't want to be accused of advertising...

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    Hi Marc, I was a builder for over 23 years and I invented a product for installing doors call EZ-Hang door brackets. So I just go by Door Guy on forums. EZ-Hang simplifes installing doors and eliminates shims. That's all I'll say... don't want to be accused of advertising...
    LOL, that's okay...I'll tell'em I asked. Good to meet another door guy. Our construction Co used to install hollow metal doors, frames and hardware. Mostly Public works projects, oshpod stuff and schools mostly. Great product, good luck with that.
    Are you an city code official or a private IOR where you are?

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    LOL, that's okay...I'll tell'em I asked. Good to meet another door guy. Our construction Co used to install hollow metal doors, frames and hardware. Mostly Public works projects, oshpod stuff and schools mostly. Great product, good luck with that.
    Are you an city code official or a private IOR where you are?
    Thanks Marc. Also a County Building Inspector/ Commercial Plan Reviewer for 5 years.

    Sounds like you could go by Door Guy yourself! I didn't install very many hollow metal doors (some though). But hey, installed thousands of residential doors. A door is a door...right.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    I'd agree with that except I've installed doors in hospitals. Our OSHPOD checks your reveals with a folded business card!

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    I'd agree with that except I've installed doors in hospitals. Our OSHPOD checks your reveals with a folded business card!
    That's precision... guess you wouldn't want a patient stuck in a room from a binding door though... well maybe that would depend on the patient...

    BTW thickness of a nickel works for me.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    Hi Gunnar, so CA adopted the Building Code in 2007 but not the SFD detached residential code? In Michigan, we have done something similar, patterned after the IBC and IRC. It's really just the International codes with minor changes, like the stairway rise and run... I find it odd that they adopted the Building code but not the Residential code back in 2007? It doesn't make sense. Bet that makes things a little interesting!
    DG,

    Yes, it is really frustrating. When building under the old UBC, much of the residential codes were the exceptions to the rules. With the current CBC (soon to be replaced), it was the same thing. Finding what had to be done meant looking carefully at the exceptions. At least the CRC will allow us to find the requirements much more easily.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    LOL, I was just exaggerating. But is was no less than 3/16. It's funny, we had a project where our frame tabs were screwed off and penetrated the drywall paper which the IOR waited until level 4 finish was complete to show us pictures. It was a $15K re-work with $5K in LD's. JUst shows the level of power the AHJ/IOR's have on a project.

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    DG,

    Yes, it is really frustrating. When building under the old UBC, much of the residential codes were the exceptions to the rules. With the current CBC (soon to be replaced), it was the same thing. Finding what had to be done meant looking carefully at the exceptions. At least the CRC will allow us to find the requirements much more easily.
    Gunnar, I'm sure you'll find it much easier once the CRC is adopted. I don't understand why states like CA and MI adopt their own code when they keep 99.999% of the International Codes?

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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    LOL, I was just exaggerating. But is was no less than 3/16. It's funny, we had a project where our frame tabs were screwed off and penetrated the drywall paper which the IOR waited until level 4 finish was complete to show us pictures. It was a $15K re-work with $5K in LD's. JUst shows the level of power the AHJ/IOR's have on a project.
    15k?!?! I take it that is happened on more than one door...nice of them to wait for the finish to completed.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    so so, California
    Posts
    1,769

    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    No it was a double egress (single/double). The money was for the T&M on all the subs to come and complete their work from the steel stud to the paint. It's all prevailing wage. Yea, I guess one of our guys made him pretty mad, I later found out.
    Not to mention the $ we spent on re-labeling doors, on site. Spec called for the Painters to pull them off, then they lost them. Nightmare...

    The MAZZA INSPECTION GROUP
    www.mazzainspections.com
    Level III Thermo-picture-taker-er...er

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
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    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Well it seems you've had some luck with devining the answer to your own question, which I turned back onto you...almost, Marc.

    Because you presented a picture in 2010 of something as-built or as-installed. Last time I checked, it was still 2010, January 1, 2011 hadn't yet arrived.

    You have referenced when the legistlation passed, NOT ITS EFFECTIVE DATE.

    I was quoting Title 24, the codes in California in effect, still today.

    Since you are not precise with either your or the photographed property's specific location within the state, I used the least restrictive requirements available and applied them (based also upon materials accepted and approved, etc.) on the date I responded.

    You have not indicated if my presumption that this was a separation between a single family residence (r-3) and its attached garage (u) was incorrect, therefore I applied same as per the California Building Code.

    For construction/projects for the future, you are free to use the applicable codes and langage which would be applicable THEN.


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    so so, California
    Posts
    1,769

    Default Re: Plastic drain in seperation wall

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Well it seems you've had some luck with devining the answer to your own question, which I turned back onto you...almost, Marc.

    Because you presented a picture in 2010 of something as-built or as-installed. Last time I checked, it was still 2010, January 1, 2011 hadn't yet arrived.

    You have referenced when the legistlation passed, NOT ITS EFFECTIVE DATE.

    I was quoting Title 24, the codes in California in effect, still today.

    Since you are not precise with either your or the photographed property's specific location within the state, I used the least restrictive requirements available and applied them (based also upon materials accepted and approved, etc.) on the date I responded.

    You have not indicated if my presumption that this was a separation between a single family residence (r-3) and its attached garage (u) was incorrect, therefore I applied same as per the California Building Code.

    For construction/projects for the future, you are free to use the applicable codes and langage which would be applicable THEN.
    HG, Your're right, I should have been more clear.
    Just curious, what exactly is your background? I know it's not shoveling snow.

    The MAZZA INSPECTION GROUP
    www.mazzainspections.com
    Level III Thermo-picture-taker-er...er

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