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Thread: door glazing

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    Default door glazing

    I know this has been discussed ad nauseum, but...

    New construction has several doors like this. I could not find etched or any other kind of identification on any of them regarding safety/tempered glass. Does this look familiar to anyone? I should be able to see something in one of the corners, right?

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    Default Re: door glazing

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    I could not find etched or any other kind of identification on any of them regarding safety/tempered glass.

    I should be able to see something in one of the corners, right?
    Yes, the permanent label/identification/marking is required to be visible after glazing.

    Even if the company says: "Yes, they are safety glass.", unless you can see the marking after glazing there is but one way to find out - the hammer test ... either *it was* ... or ... *it was not* ... key word "was" ... safety glass. Regardless ... the NEW glass will need to be safety glass.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, the permanent label/identification/marking is required to be visible after glazing.

    Even if the company says: "Yes, they are safety glass.", unless you can see the marking after glazing there is but one way to find out - the hammer test ... either *it was* ... or ... *it was not* ... key word "was" ... safety glass. Regardless ... the NEW glass will need to be safety glass.
    Jerry, aren't there some laminating practices than can be done to regular glass to make it code compliant??

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    Jerry, aren't there some laminating practices than can be done to regular glass to make it code compliant??
    Yes, but ... ... John referred to tempered glass, so I went with that.

    We had a recent thread on this same issue, and, if *other than* tempered glass, then a certificate (affidavit, etc.) needs to be provided to the building official showing that the glass is in compliance with the code. I have yet to see a certificate issued stating such, and even on the laminated glass I see each is marked and visible after marking - possibly because it is more difficult to track and defend, after the fact, that the glass did in fact meet compliance with the codes (i.e., the cost of doing so may exceed the code of simply marking the glazing that the allowed practice is not used as it may not be considered practical in real world residential use).

    Yes, but ... ... a second "but" - many laminated glass panes also have one of the panes tempered, and then the safety glass pane still is required to be marked.

    From the IRC:
    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    - - - 2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.
    - -
    R308.1.1 Identification of multipane assemblies. Multipane assemblies having individual panes not exceeding 1 square foot (0.09 m2) in exposed area shall have at least one pane in the assembly identified in accordance with Section R308.1. All other panes in the assembly shall be labeled “16 CFR 1201.”



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    Default Re: door glazing

    Thanks for posting the code section Jerry, I knew you have it handy BTW I wouldn't suggest the hammer test... that is unless you have already been paid.

    Randy Gordon, construction
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    Default Re: door glazing

    Mr. Peck,
    What do you think about the last sentence of R308.1 "A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation."?




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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    Mr. Peck,
    What do you think about the last sentence of R308.1 "A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation."?

    I'm not JP, but it must mean a "permanent" label, otherwise why would they go to the trouble of requiring the etching, etc. just before that statement,and then say, oh, by the way, you can also just put a sticker on there that can be removed.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Viewing tempered glass through polarized sunglasses or through a polarizing filter can reveal a kind of shadowy moire pattern.
    C. Ueland


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    Default Re: door glazing

    First, the "glass" appears obviously conspicuously colored, etched, carved, or laminated, whatever, esp. the one across the hall - it is not clear glass, it is opaque, apparently white, i.e. DECORATIVE.

    Next, it is obviously not glazed on site, but a part of a pre-manufactured door.

    Third, this does not appear to be a "rated door" (i.e. smoke/fire rating).

    Fourth, I believe it was said already, but this does not appear to be an occupancy separation door or an exterior door, but an interior one.

    Fifth, there is no stair or riser visable anywhere in the photo, nor ramp nor landing; No pool, tub, nor shower enclosure; etc.; nor has IIRC there been any indication that there is one anywhere in the vicinity of the pictured or mentioned "doors".

    IF the door was required to have a certification, the door/packaging itself was required to have a certification until the time it was sold. The AHJ may have required the presence of that certification (removable label) until the time it was passed inspection.

    The purpose of the regulation was to avoid someone making accidential contact with the glass (like a bird flies into a window it cannot see).

    Doesn't appear to be more than 9 sq. ft. of glass. See no risers evident anywhere near the installations. See no danger of coming into contact with other glazed surfaces or other swinging doors into contact.

    Moot. No required etching id in opaque or conspicuously colored or etched or carved decorative glass.

    If the door is laminated safety glass the label had to be on the door until it was sold.

    If the door was manufacturered after Feb 11 2010 the removable certification had to contain more identifiying information than prior, but it was still allowed to be removable. Its intened survival was to be through delivery/purchase receipt by first ultimate consumer, and if removed could not be affixed as a whole to anything else.

    See Part 1201 "SAFETY STANDARD FOR ARCHITECTURAL GLAZING MATERIALS" Subchapter B "Consumer Product Safety Act Regulations" of Chapter II "CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION" of TITLE 16 of the CFR.

    CPSC 16 CFR 1201.

    Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

    To meet the standard there is no requirement to be tempered glass or for it to be etched or stamped for "safety glass" in a swinging door without exterior exposure less than 9 sq. ft.

    Stop making up code that doesn't exist Mr. Peck.

    The I-codes (IBC and IRC) repeat the information from 16 CFR 1201 (and used to provide an exception for wired-glass in fire-rated assemblies that complied with ANSI Z97.1 for occupancies other than educational use-groups, No more). In the 2009 IBC, wired glass is only permitted in doors that meet CPSC 16 CFR 1201, just like any other type of glass.

    The 2009 IBC and IRC also permit the use of glass that meets the two most stringent categories of ANSI Z97.1 in hazardous locations that are defined within those codes, but which do not fall within the scope of the federal law established by CPSC 16 CFR 1201. These locations include tub and shower enclosures, door sidelites, large lites of glass, and glazing near stairs, ramps and pools.

    These swinging doors clearly fall under CPSC 16 CFR 1201. The question remains if they must have safety glass (and if so that removable label certification was and is perfectly acceptable and must only remain until final) or if it meets the exception to having safety glass. It is not required to be "tempered glass" to meet the safety glass requirements.

    New CPSC 16 CFR 1201 Regulations Take Effect Today

    GANA Reminds Fabricators New CPSC Requirements Take Effect February 11

    Prior to Feb 11, 2010 the certificate of compliance required:
    Manufacturer’s name;
    Date of manufacture;
    Place of manufacture;
    Safety standard; and
    Certification of compliance.

    After Feb 11, 2010 the certificate of compliance must include:
    must include:
    • Manufacture’s name, mailing address and telephone number;
    • Month and year of manufacture;
    • City and state where manufactured;
    • Safety standard;
    • Identification of the product by a “unique identifier;”
    • Custodian of testing records’ name, e-mail address, mailing address and telephone number;
    • Date and place where the product was tested; and
    • The third-party test laboratory’s name, mailing address and telephone number.
    "
    According to Kim Mann, legal counsel for GANA, who led today’s webinar, this enlarged list of requirements can take the form of an “electronic certificate” or even a hybrid form, whereby certain information is available via a website (such as contact information, manufacturer’s statement of compliance, etc.), while other required information is included on the lite’s label or logo (such as date of manufacture, etc.). John Kent, administrative manager of the Safety Glazing Certification Council (SGCC) and another speaker on today’s call, noted that the testing agencies such as SGCC can provide about 90-percent of this information via its testing records, but the manufacturer would still be responsible for providing, for example, the date of manufacture and a certification statement. "

    If the door mfg indicates the glazed swinging door "meets 16 CFR 1201" that's the "certification" required. Its not for the HI to start breaking down the componants of a pre-manufactured architectual component. If the glazed door doesn't meet that standard then the mfg, and anyone else involved in the sales chain is subject to $10,000+ fines and a "whole lotta trouble".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-03-2011 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, the permanent label/identification/marking is required to be visible after glazing.

    Even if the company says: "Yes, they are safety glass.", unless you can see the marking after glazing there is but one way to find out - the hammer test ... either *it was* ... or ... *it was not* ... key word "was" ... safety glass. Regardless ... the NEW glass will need to be safety glass.
    The above is categorically UNTRUE.

    There is no such universal requirement for SAFETY GLASS/Glazing ("permanent" identification, marking or permanent label)!


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    Default Re: door glazing

    My code book says 308.4 Hazardous locations:
    1. Glazing in swinging doors except for jalousies.

    No mention of 9 sq. ft. or by tub etc... at least not until you get through the other 10 hazardous locations that require saftey glazing.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    I'm not JP, but it must mean a "permanent" label, otherwise why would they go to the trouble of requiring the etching, etc. just before that statement,and then say, oh, by the way, you can also just put a sticker on there that can be removed.
    I agree with you but I see a problem enforcing this code as it is written.
    - R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each paneof glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.

    There's more questions than answers. What does visible in the final installation mean? Is that at final inspection or forever? It appears as though it can be legally {not voiding a listing} removed as long as it is destroyed in the process and still qualify as a "designation".
    Now the label comes up. A label fits the description of a designation that can be removed as long as it is destroyed So if a label is not a "designation"; what is it? Apparently, a label is equal to a designation and as long as it has the proper information and is affixed to each pane of glazing, it passes.

    Now let's suppose the label is not there at final inspection. Who is permitted to relabel the window? The contractor, homeowner, Home Depot or the manufacturer, take your pick.


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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    First, the "glass" appears obviously conspicuously colored, etched, carved, or laminated, whatever, esp. the one across the hall - it is not clear glass, it is opaque, apparently white, i.e. DECORATIVE.

    Next, it is obviously not glazed on site, but a part of a pre-manufactured door.

    Third, this does not appear to be a "rated door" (i.e. smoke/fire rating).

    Fourth, I believe it was said already, but this does not appear to be an occupancy separation door or an exterior door, but an interior one.

    Fifth, there is no stair or riser visable anywhere in the photo, nor ramp nor landing; No pool, tub, nor shower enclosure; etc.; nor has IIRC there been any indication that there is one anywhere in the vicinity of the pictured or mentioned "doors".

    IF the door was required to have a certification, the door/packaging itself was required to have a certification until the time it was sold. The AHJ may have required the presence of that certification (removable label) until the time it was passed inspection.

    The purpose of the regulation was to avoid someone making accidential contact with the glass (like a bird flies into a window it cannot see).

    Doesn't appear to be more than 9 sq. ft. of glass. See no risers evident anywhere near the installations. See no danger of coming into contact with other glazed surfaces or other swinging doors into contact.

    Moot.
    In your own words ... "The above is categorically UNTRUE."

    It is not a moot point, that is a DOOR, and it is a SWINGING DOOR, it IS NOT a jalousie door, and SWINGING DOORS which ARE NOT jalousie doors are required to have ...
    - R308.4 Hazardous locations. The following shall be considered specific hazardous locations for the purposes of glazing:
    - - 1. Glazing in swinging doors except jalousies.

    The exception for "decorative glass" is an exception which allows 'leaded glass/stained glass' to be used and not be required to be safety glass as the glass IS ALREADY in small pieces.

    Added with edit: I figured I should come back and give you the definition of "decorative glass":
    - DECORATIVE GLASS. A carved, leaded or Dalle glass or glazing material whose purpose is decorative or artistic, not functional; whose coloring, texture or other design qualities or components cannot be removed without destroying the glazing material; and whose surface, or assembly into which it is incorporated, is divided into segments.


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 01-03-2011 at 06:47 PM. Reason: added definition of "decorative glass" for H. G.
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    Default Re: door glazing

    Creatively making up your own definitions.

    Carved glass can included that which material (surface) has been removed by etching, chemical or otherwise.

    36) Carved glass means a decoration glazing material in which a permanent visible design has been produced by polishing, grinding, or otherwise removing portions of the surface.

    (c) Exemptions. The following products, materials and uses are exempt from this part 1201:
    (1) Wired glass used in doors or other assemblies to retard the passage of fire, where such door or assembly is required by a federal, state, local, or municipal fire ordinance.
    (2) Louvers of jalousie doors;
    (3) Openings in doors through which a 3 inch diameter sphere is unable to pass;
    (4) Carved glass (as defined in §1201.2(a)(36)), dalle glass (as defined in §1201.2(a)(37)), or leaded glass (as defined in §1201.2(a)(14)), which is used in doors and glazed panels (as defined in §§1201.2(a)(7) and (a)(10)) if the glazing material meets all of the following criteria:
    (i) The coloring, texturing, or other design qualities or components of the glazing material cannot be removed without destroying the material; and
    (ii) The primary purpose of such glazing is decorative or artistic; and
    (iii) The glazing material is conspicuously colored or textured so as to be plainly visible and plainly identifiable as aesthetic or decorative rather than functional (other than for the purpose of admitting or controlliing admission of light components or heat and cold); and
    (iv) The glazing material, or assembly into which it is incorporated, is divided into segments by conspicuous and plainly visible lines.
    (5) Glazing materials used as curved glazed panels in revolving doors;
    (6) Commercial refrigerated cabinet glazed doors.

    The glass is obviously deliniated by the conspicuous and plainly visible lines, i.e. within the wooden face of the door.

    However, it changes NOT the fact that "safety glass" does NOT require a PERMANENT ETCHING or INDICATION that OUTLASTS the SALE or installation of same.

    (Safety) glass ... (INCLUDING TEMPERED GLASS) may be incorporated into architectural products listed in §1201.1(a) ... if:
    (1) The ... glass conforms to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975; and
    (2) The ...glass is permanently labeled to indicate it conforms to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975 or is accompanied by a certificate certifying conformance to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975.

    It also changes NOT that the standard for testing the glass does NOT involve a "Hammer".

    Your MADE-UP requirement that the architectural product, or the glazing itself must be permanently labeled. IT DOES NOT have to be, and neither the IBC, the IRC, nor the Federal regulation require it to be so "permanently etched or labeled".

    You're continued regression and excuses for insisting that all safety glazing must be tempered, in more than one discussion, has been amusing.

    Q: What is the definition of Safety Glazing?
    A: Any glazing that has passed either test CPSC 16 CFR 1201 for Category I or II or ANSI Z97.1 for Class A or B.

    SAFETY GLAZING
    Section 2406.4 of the 2009 IBC and Section R308.4 of the 2009 IRC establish the locations where safety glazing is required. They include the following:
    • Glazing in and near swinging and sliding doors;
    • Large lites of glass near walkways;
    • Glazing around tubs, showers, pools and similar fixtures;
    • Glazing near stairways, ramps and the landings for both.
    In these applications, the glazing must be labeled per the Consumer Products Safety Commission CPSC 16 CFR 1201 requirements. There are some exceptions for applications that are considered less hazardous, such as very small openings in doors, decorative glass, glazing provided with a protective bar, etc.

    16 CFR 1201 requirements include being accompanied by a CERTIFICATION which does NOT have to be PERMANENT or outlast the Final SALE of the architectual componant or the glazing itself.

    Funny thing about the word "OR", Sheesh! Get over yourself Man, you're WRONG. You're claiming otherwise doesn't change the fact that your assertions have no basis in the Law, the Code(s), or the Standard(s).

    With little exception this has been the "law of the land" since 1977. Amazing you are so WRONG about the entire subject.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-04-2011 at 08:16 AM.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Creatively making up your own definitions.

    Amazing you are so WRONG about the entire subject.

    Watson,

    Not making up my own definitions - got it straight from the code ... oh, wait, you only want code when it addresses what you want it to ... I forgot you do that.

    And, I am not wrong, you are, ... oh, wait, there is that 'you only want code when it addresses what you want it to' thing again.

    It is convenient to try to take things out of context when it pleases you - doesn't work here, but you try it frequently.

    Watson, I do believe you have hit your hard head on you even harder ego a few times too many.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    There does NOT have to be a permanent label, etching or marking of safety glazing, PERIOD!

    There is NO such requirement in the federal law, the ANSI standard, or the IBC or IRC. It is but one of FOUR ways to indicate. A certification and removable self-destructive label are two OTHER ways same may be indicated.

    IF the door mfg. indicates in a certification statement that accompanied the product (THE DOOR) when it was last sold, that it met 16 CFR 1201 or the ANSI Standard referenced above, that is ALL that is necessary to be in compliance.


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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There does NOT have to be a permanent label, etching or marking of safety glazing, PERIOD!
    (sigh - here we go again)

    Tempered glass IS "safety glazing", and tempered glass IS required to be permanently marked, and tempered glass IS what was being discussed.

    There is but one exception to that REQUIREMENT ... and that exception is not applicable to this discussion.

    You can huff and puff, beat your chest, bellow into the wind, bang your fist on the table, even strut like you think you are John Wayne, you will STILL not be correct on that. (Keep in mind that John Wayne died in the movie too.)

    I will relinquish this thread to your strutting as we all know that is how you pout when you do not get your way. Go for it.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There does NOT have to be a permanent label, etching or marking of safety glazing, PERIOD!

    There is NO such requirement in the federal law, the ANSI standard, or the IBC or IRC. It is but one of FOUR ways to indicate. A certification and removable self-destructive label are two OTHER ways same may be indicated.

    IF the door mfg. indicates in a certification statement that accompanied the product (THE DOOR) when it was last sold, that it met 16 CFR 1201 or the ANSI Standard referenced above, that is ALL that is necessary to be in compliance.
    The almighty hath spoken! On your knees knaves!

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Does anybody else get the impression that JP and HG are the same person taking alternating positions? (think Goofy with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other).
    Sometimes the tempered marking is very hard to see. I guess the inclusion of any marking could make it "decorative" glass according to HG.


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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (sigh - here we go again)

    Tempered glass IS "safety glazing", and tempered glass IS required to be permanently marked, and tempered glass IS what was being discussed.

    There is but one exception to that REQUIREMENT ... and that exception is not applicable to this discussion.

    You can huff and puff, beat your chest, bellow into the wind, bang your fist on the table, even strut like you think you are John Wayne, you will STILL not be correct on that. (Keep in mind that John Wayne died in the movie too.)

    I will relinquish this thread to your strutting as we all know that is how you pout when you do not get your way. Go for it.
    WRONG on all fronts Jerry Peck.

    The door is an opaque one, as is its laminated glazing.

    There is no such requirement.

    You continue to ignore the "or" phrase in the IBC, the IRC, the CSPC standard and the ANSI standard.

    The glass is and was not sold to the installer, builder, or homeowner as glass, it was manufactured into an architectual componant, i.e. a swinging door.

    YOU ASSUME tempered, but there is no requirement for tempered in this door, neither would opaque tempered glass manufactured into an interior door swinging or not require a permanent designation which outlasts the installation of the door itself, or for that matter one that outlasts the sale and final delivery of same.


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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson View Post
    Does anybody else get the impression that JP and HG are the same person taking alternating positions?
    Nope ... I've got other personalities fightin' ta git out, but nothing like H. G. ...

    H. G. is standing over there in the corner jus' ah whistlin' Dixie.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Jerry Peck,

    I pity you.

    Some day perhaps you will finally figure out that safety glass does not equal tempered glass. Some day you may finally figure out that not even all tempered safety glass has to have an etching or permanent designation. The law and standards on that have been virtually unchanged for well over 30 years.

    Some day you might actually figure out how to determine the distinctions with differences, understand a list order, the use of punctuation, compound nouns, either/or phrases and american english syntax.

    Perhaps one day you might actually be able to retain long standing (since the mid 70s) Standards, Code, Law, information for more than three months.

    Safety glass does not equate tempered glass, but may include tempered glass. Not ALL tempered glass requires permanent designation.

    Likely due to the failure of your own limitations during your supposed elementary and secondary education, and lack thereof of any advanced education, technical school, or training.

    Your preformance on this and the Mirrored Walls Above Tub thread provide the ammo for ANY minimally skilled attorney to challenge everything you might ever possibly present as an E.W., you're "experience" not withstanding. Cognitive and reason defects outstanding, kiss that dream goodbye.

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...above-tub.html

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-06-2011 at 07:15 AM.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...

    Some day you might actually figure out how to devine the distinctions of punctuation, compound nouns, either/or phrases and american english syntax...
    Before criticizing someone's use of American English, maybe you should learn to spell (divine) and capitalize words that are supposed to be capitalized, eh?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope ... I've got other personalities fightin' ta git out, but nothing like H. G. ...

    H. G. is standing over there in the corner jus' ah whistlin' Dixie.
    And Jerry Peck is jus' speaking outta his azz, 'cuz there ain't no such requirements as he claims, 'cept in his little "mind" that he apparently sits on, and has apparently suffered damage from the activity.


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    Exclamation Re: door glazing

    Wow, what a great and educational topic this could be but it has turned... as other topic have, because of the personalities involved.

    This will stop now (on this thread and all threads) or memberships will be deleted.

    It simply is not worth it to have "the smart guys" posting on the board for the amount on members I lose due to their posts.

    I do not care how smart a person is (or thinks he is), if he can not post helpful information and enter into an honest debate without being condescending and/or rude to other members then there is no place for that person here.

    When a university has a brilliant person as a teacher, however the class is nearly empty due to the teacher's demeanor and the dean is constantly getting complaints then the university will let the teacher go no matter how well he/she knows the topic.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Don't we have some AHJ on this forum that can elaborate on this subject? Would like to hear there interpretation

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
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    Default Re: door glazing

    I’ve read the above thread with interest due to my experience as a legal expert witness in construction defect and building code litigation and have testified on two separate cases involving non-tempered glazing that resulted in personal injury. In my opinion the above argument comes down to one basic premise and that is the interpretation of “Decorative Glass.”

    From the 2010 California Residential Code, Chapter 2; Definitions: Decorative Glass – A carved, leaded or Dalle glass or glazing material whose purpose is decorative or artistic, not functional; whose coloring, texture or other design qualities of components cannot be removed without destroying the glazing materials; and whose surface, or assembly into which it is incorporated , is divided into segments.

    The photo submitted shows what appears to be either a commercial of residential occupancy with a side hinged swinging glass door. Frankly, the property owner will be held legally libel should someone be injured by broken glass as there is no argument that it has been installed in a hazardous location. At least that was the result of the two cases I was called for.

    As home inspectors you cannot go wrong by following one of the golden rules of our industry, “When in doubt - call it out.” In other words let someone else get in front of you when there’s any chance of making the wrong call.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: door glazing

    It looked to me like the glass was clear, and the wall was white behind it on both doors, or am I just seeing it wrong? John A., can you clarify?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    It looked to me like the glass was clear, and the wall was white behind it on both doors, or am I just seeing it wrong? John A., can you clarify?
    The glass is not clear. The doors in the pic are bedroom doors, so ...

    I guess I would call them smoked, but that's probably wrong.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: door glazing

    WC Jerry,

    Safety glass does not have to be full tempered glass. Safety glass does not necessarily REQUIRE a permanent etching or designation, neither does a compliant door.

    Laminated glass is one of several types of safety glass.

    John Arnold has confirmed the glass is not clear (opaque) as is the one opposite the hall and photographed closed. There is no doubt the inset/door lite is not clear now. Be it opaque due to lamination layer, etching, whatever - it is "clearly" not "clear".

    16 CFR 1201 requirements include the option of being accompanied by a CERTIFICATION which does NOT have to be PERMANENT or outlast the Final SALE of the architectual componant or the glazing itself.



    Safety glass ... may be incorporated into architectural products listed in §1201.1(a) ... if:
    (1) The ... glass conforms to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975; and
    (2) The ...glass is permanently labeled to indicate it conforms to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975 or is accompanied by a certificate certifying conformance to ANSI Z97.1–1972 or 1975
    A removable label or an attached certification is sufficient and meets the Standards and Requirements (Fed. Law). The IBC, the IRC, ANSI Z97.1, 16 CFR 1201 do NOT require glass in swinging doors be full tempered glass (one of MANY types of SAFETY GLASS) that IS the point (there is more than ONE type of safety glass!)!

    Neither the removable label nor the certification is required to survive final sale. The removable label (if so indicated) should not survive its removal intact. Whether it may be removed prior to inspection by the AHJ, is up to the AHJ as to IF an affidavit from the installer (of the componant containing the glazing or the glazing itself) that the label, certification, was present on the componant prior to installation, will be accepted.

    In Summary:

    I AGREE that SHOULD the inset of the swinging interior door actually be GLASS, that it should be safety glass.

    I DISAGREE that the glazing within the door must be full tempered glass.

    I FURTHER DISAGREE, AS Neither the safety glass Nor the door itself must be permanently identified as being safety glass, or meeting 16 CFR 1201 or ANSI Z97.1! Permanently identified or etched is an OPTION for identification of safety glass, as is label or accompanying certification. Those forms of identification was and are not required to remain upon the glazing itself, or the architectual companant containing same, after final sale and/or completed (and possibly accepted/approved/inspected) installation.

    Finally, There is nothing pictured, nor indicated in any of John A's posts to require full tempered glass in the interior swinging bedroom doors.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-14-2011 at 05:38 PM.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    I’ve read the above thread with interest due to my experience as a legal expert witness in construction defect and building code litigation and have testified on two separate cases involving non-tempered glazing that resulted in personal injury. In my opinion the above argument comes down to one basic premise and that is the interpretation of “Decorative Glass.”
    It concerns me that you refer "non-tempered glazing".

    Please explain, cite, define your use of that phrase "non-tempered glazing" especially in the context you used it in reference to your experience as a legal expert witness in construction defect and building code litigation.


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    Default Re: door glazing

    Mr. Watson, I truly hope you are not going to lecture me on the California Building Codes? As per Brian’s recent message I have no desire to get into a urinary contest with you or anyone else who disagrees with whatever I post in this excellent message board. Hey, I’ve been wrong in the past and more than likely will be wrong in the future, but I will never give in to a bully who demands clarification of any statement that is not entirely in agreement with his/ her stated position! In other words I've generally found the building code writers are generally clear in concept and state what any reasonable person may logically interpret. In this case our bone of contention is rather simple to define so therefore I will add a section of the California Building Code that I base my opinion on to help persuade you to use clear intellect rather than ego driven self serving assumptions to come to the table of reason.

    CBC 2010 Vol. II - 2406.3 - Identification of safety glazing. Except as indicated in Section 2406.3.1, each pane of safety glazing installed in hazardous locations shall be identified by a manufacturer's designation specifying who applied the designation, the manufacturer or installer and the safety glazing standard with which it complies, as well as the information specified in Section 2403.1. The designation shall be acid etched, sand blasted, ceramic fired, laser etched, embossed or of a type that once applied, cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label as defined in Section 202.1 and meeting the requirements of this section shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer's designation.
    Exceptions:
    1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer's designations are not required, provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.
    2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: door glazing

    No sir. I am in no way being in any way a bully, or disrespectful. I really don't understand why you feel the need to proclaim this or bring bodily functions into the mix, or butress your assertions with your "expert witness" and "construction expert" hyperbole, or to get "personal".

    And Mr. Hannigan's commentary was not one directional, despite Mr. Peck's comments here and on other recent threads claiming otherwise.

    You, in your most recent post, have quoted language which is indeed borrowed from the CFR and ANSI Standard I cited previously, which has been the universal "law of the land" since at least 1977, and the ANSI standard pre-dates that.

    Point being you previously made generalizations which were incorrect. You also asserted or implied that anything short of full tempered glass was not "safety glass" or in someway unsafe.

    Mr. Peck has oft confused and generalized that all safety glazing was required to be full tempered glass and permanently etched or identified as same. He made this claim repeatedly regarding mirrors in bathrooms in critical safety areas having to be made and permanently indicated as full tempered glass in the topic discussion I provided a link to earlier in this thread.

    This is of course untrue and incorrect.

    Your generalizations and introduction of a non-standard, non-code, non-industry term of "non-tempered" was, to say the least, confusing. Especially as introduced and/or buttressed with the "expert witness" hyperbole.

    Safety glass does not equate to full-tempered glass. Safety glass and/or safety glazing includes far more than JUST full-tempered glass.

    Your own "citation" in the most recent post above includes language which is permissive of identification which is not permanent.

    It does, support one of the two major points of correction I made on this thread.

    I do NOT condone gross misinformation. Safety glazing does not require permanent identification, most Home Inspectors are performing inspections long after such has been installed and passed the "code inspection" and it is wrong to lead them to believe that without a permanent identification, especially on other than clear glazing, that it is somehow proof that it is not safety glazing (because it is not correct), or proof positive (lack of a permanent indication) that something is "defective" or a defect, or a safety condition necessarily in need of correction. It may be safety glazing which is not permanently identified (and point being that is both legal, safe, and not required to be).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-14-2011 at 09:37 PM.

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    Default Re: door glazing

    I think I may have figured out where a short circuit might be Jerry Peck and WC Jerry (Jerry Mc). I still can't come up with a reason though, why you both presume all safety glass must be fully tempered strengthened glass though, and ignore laminated glass, for example. I do understand with EC Jerry's work experience he'd be against any thickness of annealed glass due to MIA/Dade exclusion even if passing tests.

    You two have spent decades between you as building department inspectors of ongoing/new construction to SPECIFIED plans. I think you've forgotten where the permanent label or mark requirement comes from/came from - its not the building code or residential code (otherwise there wouldn't be the "OR" in it).

    ANSI Z97.1-2004 requires permanent labeling/marking for all safety glass covered by the standard, not the code (with exceptions) and not the federal law (with exceptions on the organic backing; asymentrical glazing-this side out, etc.) or its references to Z97.1-75/78.

    When the glazing specifier, be that architect, or whomever, or for (EC Jerry, the Miami Dade Hurricane codes) has SPECIFIED ANSI Z97.1-XX(year), or specifies that it be perm. labeled/marked; the Miami Dade NOV, or in the case of bullet or burglar resistant the appropriate UL standard(s) which may require same; in the plans/specifications that therefore has mandated perm. labeling or (mark in 06). It was that specification to that standard that envoked/required it, not the raw IBC or IRC or formerly UBC for WC.

    With the glazing side in perm. exception that isn't required with the CPSC or the in this case IRC.

    Since the "traditional" "Home Inspection" is not an inspection to plan, and the original quesiton of this topic discussion was not originating from Miami Dade, FL (for their special standards) or ANSI Z97.1 isn't automatically "envoked".

    And as a reminder, this were not identified as closet door(s).

    I'm going to come back over the weekend and post up two or three documents/articles/bulletins from GANA that as I recall were well written, easy to understand for the code/technical/standard minded that compare the distinctions with differences regarding this very issue. I think if you review with an open, unemotional, and clear mindset you may both have "Oprah-type Light-bulb Moments" when you go back and re-read the IBC and IRC code sections applicable.

    In the meanwhile and For your reading pleasure,

    CPSC Rules on Conformity to Certification Requirements

    And the CPSC Rule changes (Law effective Nov. 2008) so you can be updated (not only permanent designation or paper certification/certificates, but now electronic certifications, and increased data which must be available with those certifications)

    http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotice...tification.pdf (attached)

    Other resources include:

    Glazing Industry Code Committee (GICC),
    the Accredited Standards Committee (ASC) Z97 (ANSI Z97.1)
    and the Glass Association of North America (GANA).

    ANSI Z97.1 specified material is NOT NECESSARILY what we're talking about here.

    Here's the Fed Register section with the rule changes that afford electronic certifications:

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-15-2011 at 12:56 AM.

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