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Thread: Tempered glass

  1. #1
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    Default Tempered glass

    Does the typical 18" rule apply only from interior heights or can it also apply for windows at less than 18" from ground/soil along a gangway or service walk?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    My code books are hazy on this. Every example that appears for this situation shows exterior examples and does not specifically state it applies to the interior of the house as well as the exterior. And to make it even more confusing, the verbiage used is ground and floor level. Does that mean interior floors as well? When I made mention of this type of configuration in the past (18" or less from ground inside the house), builders told me it only applies on the exterior.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    You're talking about the grade level windows of duplex condo units? The City code is also somewhat vague. Depending on conditions it would probably fall more under the 'Guards' section than the tempered glass section. The Guards section is also worded kind of weird. Have to see a pic.

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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    This was a SFR withe basement windows that opened just above grade (bsmt wasn't very deep) .


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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Neag View Post
    Does the typical 18" rule apply only from interior heights or can it also apply for windows at less than 18" from ground/soil along a gangway or service walk?
    I don't have the Chicago code, but ... the IRC addresses the 18 inches in relation to ALL of the other requirements associated with the 18 inch height - i.e., I doubt that ALL of the other requirements are met, but ... IF they are, then, yes, safety glazing would be required.

    Here are the IRC requirements: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 7. Glazing in an individual fixed or operable panel, other than those locations described in Items 5 and 6 above, that meets all of the following conditions: (Jerry's note: Think of this list as meeting ALL of 7.1 AND 7.2 AND 7.3 AND 7.4.)

    - - 7.1. Exposed area of an individual pane larger than 9 square feet (0.836 m
    2).
    - - 7.2. Bottom edge less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor.
    - - 7.3. Top edge more than 36 inches (914 mm) above the floor.
    - - 7.4. One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally of the glazing.

    I.e., the glazing would need to be: Exposed area of an individual pane larger than 9 square feet AND Bottom edge less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor AND Top edge more than 36 inches (914 mm) above the floor AND One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally of the glazing.


    Thus that single pane of the window would need to be less than 18 inches above the ground, and 18 inches tall or taller, and if only 18 inches tall the window would need to be 6 feet or more in length to make 9 square feet - that would be a pretty good size window, and be within 36 inches of the walking area outside the window (no plants within that 36 inches).




    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 02-03-2011 at 05:45 PM. Reason: added the last "less than" to the 18 inches above the ground in the last paragraph - missed typing it the first time
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Ok, so based on ECJ's and Markus's response it looks like this does not require safety glazing as the windows were not that large despite several satisfying section 7.4.

    MK- this was a standard composite casement (of many) approx 6' above bsmt floor, 2 yr new SFR in Ravenswood. Didn't take measurements but no more than 20-24" x same, maximum.

    Much obliged, sirs.

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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    clarificiation question(s),

    Are these EEROs or not unclear to your 20" and 24" references; and are these less than 18" from GRADE of the walk or surface outside; and "service walk" reference, is this "service walk" adjacent to property lines/alleyways?

    I've the feeling this "service walk" is pathway between building and pictured fence - is egress exit path to street or alley from said basement casement windows finished habital space partially lower than grade OR near property line within five feet; got lost on the 6' elevation above finished floor reference - must be a very high ceiling for basement with 24" tall windows then - can you clarify for one who got lost in the detail delivery please?

    Is this a safety glazing questionk or separation/fire wall construction withiin set-back. EERO from habital space from basement, or egress path/ swinging door or similar obstruction in exit/egress path question?

    P.S. Laminated safety glazing may contain other than fully heat-tempered glass; are you certain this glazing is in fact "glass"?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-03-2011 at 06:01 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    HG et al,

    The windows WERE NOT larger than 24" x 24", hence, less than 9 sq ft. YES, several were along the service walk of the home and less than 18" from service walk height; common in Chicago.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    From experience I am not aware of a tempered glass requirement for this window. I also looked through various sections and did not find anything that would require this window to have safety glazing.
    It just doesn't meet the requirements.

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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    From experience I am not aware of a tempered glass requirement for this window. I also looked through various sections and did not find anything that would require this window to have safety glazing.
    It just doesn't meet the requirements.
    Markus,

    "It just doesn't meet the requirements."

    You are correct that the window does not meet the requirements for requiring safety glazing, not because of location, but because of size.

    That exterior area IS a walkway (see my clarification regarding no plants being there and thus it becomes a walkway), and that window IS within 36 inches of the walkway.

    However, that window does not meet ALL of the other requirements which would make it be required to be safety glass.

    Let's suppose, for this exercise, that the window WAS less than 18" above the ground, which is also the walking surface grade, and that the window had one pane which WAS greater than 9 sf in size, and that the top of the window WAS more than 36 inches above the walking surface ... and we already said the window WAS within 36" of the walkway (walking surface) ... that window WOULD be required to be safety glazing.

    That is why the code uses the words it does: "7.4. One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally of the glazing."

    That includes ALL walking surfaces, the code cannot think of, and spell out, each and every possible "walking surface" would could build or use, and grassy yard areas are walking surfaces within 36" horizontally of windows ... unless there are plants which keep you 36" away (such as a 3 ft wide planting area).

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    An interior floor is a "walking surface".


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Somehow I've missed it, what is the distance from these glazed openings' exterior wall to the adjacent structure and/or property line?


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    HG I don't think Ross mentioned the distance to the fence/interior lot line. I'll assume a couple things ... since from the pic the area looks like gravel, that is probably the non-walkway side of the building (the walkway side of the building around here has cement) based on the typical 25' city lot, building size etc, that area is probably 2' wide maybe up to 3'; but probably closer to 2'.
    Are you asking because you are thinking fire glazing due to proximity to lot line? Not required for an SF (A1)

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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Yes Markus Keller, I was so similarly considering/thinking, esp. if the recent construction was closely set back, or should the service walk way be the exit path for an EERO or primary exit path elsewhere was sufficiently clear width should any casement so situated be fully extended (at presumedly 24" or less out) and the outswinging casement encroached upon same, not as much a glazing type but form of fenestration - i.e. outswing - obstruction. I, most likely incorrectly, had thought I recalled for example inswing only hopper type, etc. perhaps not applicable, as you mentioned for conforming A1 closely situated to parallel, adjoining, or adjacent structures, of unknown height or proximity, that may or may not restrict egress.

    I remain also confused as to elevation from finished basement floor, as originally indicated basement 'wasn't very deep' or something to that effect initially, then later reference which I took to indicate the window sills were six feet above basement finished floor - and were 24" high or so and 20-24" or 24" wide but was further confused as to clear opeining dimensions or revealed glazed area, and no idea as to what was above, immediately above these openings or elsewhere above on the exterior wall (ex. other EEROs) on the first or higher floors on this wall, since I gathered these casements when open enroach at less than 5' above grade.

    Appreciate the head's up on the city code regarding zoning AND construction, SFR's or mixed occupancy, so I won't bother exploring my questions or concerns further. Was further unclear what was opposite that fence structure, i.e. other than SFR, height, etc. Won't concern myself with separation wall possibilities/concerns and openings therein within 18"-36+" of grade, etc. and/or metering/services readers. Won't fixate on (this end) brain blip service "walkway" reference. Curious if new construction (2years new) in Ravenswood area would have been part of the H20 metering program automatically or if those efforts are mostly focused in wards further south in the city.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-04-2011 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    If I'm understanding the metering question correctly ... yes that would have a water meter. All new construction is required to have a water meter as of at least 03,04 but I'm thinking possibly '99. Can't remember for sure. That of course doesn't mean they always get installed. It would be on the plans and should be there but whether a PL inspector actually comes back to do a final and verifies it is another story. Sometimes it doesn't get put in until 6-12 months later when Water comes out to do a reading. Depending on service size and quality a meter is $125-175 for a SF. The low ball contractors tend to leave a 2' horizontal run on the main after the shut-off before the vertical rise to the ceiling just in case to cover themselves. Somehow they tend to forget that the meter goes there.
    The main push to get meters in existing homes is two fold. That stupid advertising campaign, which nobody with a brain believes; and requiring the installation of a meter during a major rehab permit. Say you are rehabbing the basement or doing an addition, go for a permit, bingo time for a water meter in order to get approved. That I know, has been happening since at least 2000.
    Hope that explains it.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Thank you M.K. for the update on the water department metering program.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    An interior floor is a "walking surface".
    ANY surface you walk on is a "walking surface".

    An interior floor, an exterior deck, an exterior walkway, an exterior grassy area along the side of the house one uses as a walkway, etc.

    You are severely limiting yourself and your area of knowledge if you think that only " An interior floor is a "walking surface" ".

    That is like saying a light switch is only a light switch if it switches on "incandescent lights", but it is not light switch if it switches on fluorescent lights, halogen lights, high pressure sodium lights, etc.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Tempered glass

    Mr. Peck,

    I apologize for sounding so stupid. I guess I lost track of the op and saw only references to exterior surfaces so I reminded all that the interior floor is also a walkway. By the way, no matter what is on the exterior, i.e. grass, a planter, a portal to Hell, if the window is closer than 18'' to that surface, it is by default less than 18" above the floor on the interior in almost all dwelling situations.

    Since you seem to know a lot about windows I would love the hear your thoughts on R308.4 item 5.

    Oh, I almost forgot, my back, well that's not a walking surface.


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