Thread: Doorway to Hell

Believe it or not, this was in the childs play area. My comment in the report was as follows:

• Safety Issue: The door that goes to the 2nd floor exterior has about a 12’ drop to the ground. This door should be removed and replaced with a window or a deck should be constructed outside this door. In the mean time, replace the deadbolt and door knob with keyed locks and place the keys out of the reach of children. This door is also a possible leak point for rain.

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Barrier should be installed at the exterior.

Amazing. All exterior doors require landing. Are they in the process of adding a deck or ran out of money?

Is that relatively new construction? Are permits required in your area? If so (to both questions), I would have expected the AHJ to require a barrier be installed on the outside of the door until the deck was built.

It looks to me like the door was cut in after-the-fact based on the rough cut edge on the drywall and base molding. It also appears the door jamb is not wide enough for the wall width so spacers will have to be installed when the door casing is installed. And the base molding will have to be cut back to allow installation of the door casing.

That was a good catch for you. That's the kind of stuff we are paid to find.

Originally Posted by Jon Randolph

Believe it or not, this was in the childs play area. My comment in the report was as follows:

• Safety Issue: The door that goes to the 2nd floor exterior has about a 12’ drop to the ground. This door should be removed and replaced with a window or a deck should be constructed outside this door. In the mean time, replace the deadbolt and door knob with keyed locks and place the keys out of the reach of children. This door is also a possible leak point for rain.

Jon,

I agree with the find and your concerns but prescribing a repair that may entrap occupants is a NO-NO in my book.

The home was built in 1920, so this was an add on. Current owner has "made several upgrades" according to the listing sheet. Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation. I don't know if the original intention was to add a balcony/deck or not.

Barry - That door should not have been there in the first place and there are other windows for emergency egress if needed. In my opinion, a double keyed deadbolt would be about the only thing to ensure the safety of children. If I could open it with the standard deadbolt and locking doorknob, a child can too.

Jon, …. Good catch and I agree with your recommendation, but I have to agree with Barry. Keyed dead bolts could possibly entrap someone in the room (even though there are other windows in the room). It’s easy to say this now, because I’m just now reading this, and I wasn’t there at the time. But, I think I would have recommended the installation of a “keyless dead-bolt” out of the reach of children, ….. say in the upper third part of the door.

Even with the keyless dead-bolt in place, Murphy’s Law could still take its course. If someone (let’s say a guest not knowing there is NO deck in the back) were to open that door, take a few steps, and bam – to the ground below they go. In addition, I would have recommended placing some sort of semi-permanent barrier in front of the door to prevent it from opening and people from walking through it.

Maybe, but requiring special needs to operate the lock such as a key, at an exterior door, is akin to 2 wrongs making a right. I would address the problem directly and stay away from recommending anything directly in conflict with any local code or ordinance. Now of course, you may not have any requirements by state, local, or any other jurisdiction but........

From the IRC
R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing
on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing
at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38
mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall
be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical
in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall
not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the
top of the threshold, provided the door, other than
an exterior storm or screen door does not swing
over the landing.
R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch. All egress doors shall be
readily openable from the side from which egress is to be
made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

Jon Randolph: "This door is also a possible leak point for rain."
In a later post: "Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation."

Couldn't help but notice the contradiction.

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? They certainly have their place when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt. Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.

Enclose it completely,cover with siding outside drywall inside, problem solved.
Tony

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

Jon Randolph:
On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? They certainly have their place when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt. Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.

Life loss trumps property loss any day.

I don't buy the realtor's or anyone else's argument about breaking glass for deceitful entry.

Someone's watched way to many late night movies and a theif or other nogoodniks will get in if they really want in.

What about all the non-egress window locations? Are we supposed to call them out for having unkeyed locks?

Before this door was installed, the outside "deck or stairway" should have been installed. This is the cart before the horse. I would list this as a Safety issue and a non-satisfactory condition. As an old remodeler and a NEW HI, I am very interested in reading your recommendations. I would probably write it up by saying " have this fixed before moving in".

[quote=

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? ... Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.[/quote]

I don't like these locks at all. I will not work in a home with the doors locked from the inside. Either they unlock them while I work, or find someone else.

From the 2006 IRC:

AM103.3 Type of lock and latches for exits.

Regardless of
the occupant load served, exit doors shall be openable from the
inside without the use of a key or any special knowledge or
effort. When the occupant load is 10 or less, a night latch, dead
bolt or security chain may be used, provided such devices are
openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool and
mounted at a height not to exceed 48 inches (1219 mm) above
the finished floor.

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue?

Yes.

They certainly have their place ...

No they don't.

... when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt.

That's not a "reason" to potentially kill someone because a double deadbolt was installed and the key missing or broke off.

If someone is going to get in, that double deadbolt is not going to stop them. If they break the glass, they'll rip out the door, or, as was done to our house down in South Florida, break the window (an awning type, then rip the awning frame out to make more entry space). Once inside the house, that double deadbolt does nothing to stop them from opening the door and taking things out.

[quote Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.[/quote]

No problem - no double deadbolt - save a life.

The only ways I see to remedy this are:
a) construct an approved barricade on the exterior, similar to a deck railing or
b) seal it up so it is non-operable.

However, I still have a problem with a door to nowhere. It can mislead someone during a fire into thinking it is an exit. I can just see a house guest dead from smoke inhalation lying at this door instead of getting downstairs.

Doors should go to somewhere, esp. in the exterior shell of the home.

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

The only ways I see to remedy this are:
a) construct an approved barricade on the exterior, similar to a deck railing or
b) seal it up so it is non-operable.

Bob,

Here is a 3rd option, and it eliminates your other concern as well:
c) construct an approved barricade on the INterior, such a a railing blocking access to the door, making the door *not an option* during any emergency.

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

Jon Randolph: "This door is also a possible leak point for rain."
In a later post: "Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation."

Couldn't help but notice the contradiction.

The door was flashed under the siding, but there was not another door (ie. storm door). This door is on the west side of the home and in my area rain usually comes from the west. Without maintenance, which is hard or impossible for the normal person from the outside, I would think that leaking at the threshold would be imminent over time.

As far as the keyed dead bolts, I write it up as a safety issue any "normal" door going from the home to the exterior or the attached garage.

I do agree that more should be done to this area such as the suggested landing or replacement with a window but I still feel that it would immediately remove the hazard of anyone being able to open that door and take the first fatal step if that door had keyed deadbolts with the keys removed.

What amazes me is that "this door to Hell" was left for the home inspector to write up in his report. This should be an obvious safety defect that any one should understand, especially the realtor and the seller. That said, I am thankful that such folks exist because they keep us in business.

Travis

With all the viable and safe options available to to recommend to your clients why on earth would you EVER recommend doing something so wrong as installing a keyed entry to your clients? I don't mean to see so crass but I don't understand that logic. I would always recommend making reasonable, safe options or repairs to your clients as opposed to that type of recommendations. Remember, as time passes and the door area is addressed and the lock "YOU" recommended be installed remains who will get the call when or if something does happen and that lock is still in place. "But, my inspector TOLD me to install a deadbolt keyed from the inside" Hmmmm.......wouldn't want that to be me.
IMHO

Ironic this should be posted. Saturday i went to a retirement party for a friend,. He has a garage with an unfinished upstairs that looks just like the picture posted. I asked how he got away with that when the final inspection was done. He said he didn't the County inspector went up and nailed the door shut telling him there now your fine. He can pull the nails out anytime he wants. The inspector said his report reflect the door being nailed shut. If anyone were to be hurt from this point on it's his problem.

Common practice 80 years ago.
It aimed at providing access for larger peices of furniture. look at 2nd picture closely

Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt

With all the viable and safe options available to to recommend to your clients why on earth would you EVER recommend doing something so wrong as installing a keyed entry to your clients?

I value everyone's opinion, which is why I posted it to this forum. But what would be quickest way to remove the possibility of a child opening the door and falling. I don't know about the carpentry skills of the buyer or if he can afford to hire this done. Either way it takes some time to "make it safe". I recommend the fastest and most affordable to immediately remove the possibility of a fall, further details can be left until later.

1. Removal, framing to fit a new window and siding over the remainder of the opening would be the best option in my opinion. Cost to hire contractor - $500-800 / 2-3 week timeframe depending on availability.

2. Build a small balcony outside of the door. Cost to hire contractor $600-1000 / 2-3 week timeframe depending on availability.

3. Make the door impossible to open by barricading or nailing/screwing shut. This could damage the door, nails could be pulled out by kids, barricades could be moved/manipulated. This impedes escape, but remember that there are windows in this area.

3. Install 2 keyed deadbolts. Cost to hire contractor $50-75 / 1 hour job max.
Doesn't damage door, can't be manipulated (though older kids may be able to pick the deadbolts). This impedes escape, but remember that there are windows in this area.

Jon,

It appears to me that you have missed the point of many/most of the above.

On another note, though, ... why are you worried about how much money who spends? Why is it 'your client's' money and not 'the seller's' money? Why do you even care *HOW MUCH MONEY* it is?

It is up to you, the HI, to make the best and safest recommendations, not to try to tell someone how cheap of a rope they can buy to hang themselves with, and that cheap rope will likely break before they die anyway.

The professional HI finds the problem (you did) reports the problem (you did) and does *not* give advise on how to kill ones self in case of an emergency (but you did that too).

One common, VERY COMMON, thing I see with HIs is that they start counting their client's pennies, when, in fact, if the report were written such that the danger was more clearly presented, the seller may even have had to kick and pay for it.

Th *HI* *should not* be concerned with who pays for what, nor how much it costs to make the best and safest corrections. If those corrections are outside the budget of both the seller and the buyer, *it may very well be best* that the deal falls apart.

Frankly nothing should be done about that door. Obviously Charles Darwin intended it to be there and it just as obvious the moronic home owners approve of it. Without occupant safety issues like that just how do we go about thinning the gene pool of those folks???

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Without occupant safety issues like that just how do we go about thinning the gene pool of those folks???

That's where HIs come in which recommend installing double keyed dead bolts ... keeps 'em off the DL players list, puts 'em over to 'the late' column.

Provided that the previous posts are correct, the following questions have been presented and answered.

Is it safe to use the door in it's present state, i.e. leads to a drop off of 12'? No.

Are there adequate (operational, properly sized) windows to allow access from this room? Yes.

Should the door be made inaccessible? Yes.

Why not make it inaccessible by installing a double keyed lock on it? One can always spray paint on the door: "This door is locked! A broken off key may be in this lock or the key has been lost. If you must exit this room use the interior door or one of the accessible windows!" I will allow a printed sign in lieu of spray painting the door. A double keyed lock makes the door just as inacessible as a barricade.

"double keyed" = Not allowed. (period)

What else should we recommend to our clients that is not allowed?

Openable exterior doors, with out a landing, with a 12' drop aren't allowed either.

Originally Posted by Travis Grubbs

Openable exterior doors, with out a landing, with a 12' drop aren't allowed either.

Correct.

So you report the problem and give them some options on how to correct that condition *properly*.

How much it costs, and, *IF* they even do it, that is up to them (whoever "them" is).

But you do not hang your butt on the line and say 'oh, by the way, the quick easy and cheap fix is *to do something ELSE which is also wrong* and ... '

Explaining how to “fix” anything, especially safety issues, is #1 in looking for a quick and expensive exit from this profession. “Blessing” corrective work by others runs a close second.

May I flip this issue around? Let's say you found the same exterior door, with a double keyed dead bolt lock, and with a 12' drop. The door is locked and cannot be opened. Would you report it as being defective since it has a double keyed dead bolt lock (and is locked)? Would you suggest that the double keyed dead bolt lock be replaced with one that has a handle on the interior side, so that the door can be unlocked and expose one to the 12' drop?

Ok, I'll bite.

Travis, you seem to be hung up on wanting to tell your client how to fix the problem. Jerry M posted some very good advice about that.

In your example, I write up both the riser to the exterior landing and the double keyed lock as items which need repair. I flag both of them with the heading "SAFETY CONCERN"*. I explain why both of these are problems and what could happen if they don't get it fixed. I conclude with "Consult a qualified remodeling contractor to determine repair options and costs. Repairs should be completed prior to occupancy".

At this point my job is done. Let the contractor explain the various options. Let the buyer and seller haggle over who's going to fix it and who's going to pay for it.


*I have a page in the front of my report that explains my heading flags. The one for "SAFETY CONCERN" reads: "Conditions that are judged to be a real or potential threat to safety or health (regardless of cost to repair) are identified as safety concerns. These items should be repaired immediately and prior to occupancy. Cost may be minimal or significant."

Travis,
I would emphatically state that the deadbolt need to be removed, AND the door addressed in the correct way. I don't even see the hint of a conflict in that.
Your questions is misleading in that it infers the deadbolt is the only issue addressed and not the door. The overt question that needs to be asked is "when is it ok for an HI to recommend corrections in direct opposition of the very things were supposed to help our customers avoid". I can't answer for anyone else, but I can answer for myself, I wouldn't do it. But, thats just me.

Michael and Brandon:

Thank you for your replies.

I am guilty, as charged, of suggesting how some items can be repaired. While I usually report: " I suggest having a qualified contractor evaluate and repair", for most defects. I usually suggest that a double keyed dead bolt lock be replaced with one with an interior control. I normally do not suggest who should do the replacing. I probably find a double keyed dead bolt lock at every 3rd house that I inspect. I am also guilty of suggesting that covers be installed on exposed outlets and switches, instead of suggesting that a licensed electrician (a qualified contractor) install the covers.

The situation with this door has intrigued me. If I found one unsecured, with out a proper landing, I would point out the defects, and I would then suggest that a qualified contractor evaluate and repair, AFTER I told my client, the clueless seller, the clueless realtors, etc., to secure that obvious safety hazard immediately.

But, then I thought, what if the door in question was already secured by a double keyed dead bolt lock? What would I do then? I would much rather see the door kept inaccessible as opposed to relacing this particular double keyed dead bolt lock. The other defects could be addressed later as long as the door was kept secured. That is just my humble opinion.

Originally Posted by Travis Grubbs

But, then I thought, what if the door in question was already secured by a double keyed dead bolt lock? What would I do then? I would much rather see the door kept inaccessible as opposed to relacing this particular double keyed dead bolt lock. The other defects could be addressed later as long as the door was kept secured. That is just my humble opinion.

Travis,

Here is a solution to recommend (serious) in the case you state above: nail a piece of plywood over the door, covering not only the death trap door, but the double keyed dead bolt as well.

The door now becomes "inaccessible", i.e., 'it is not there anymore'.

I know, I know, 'but Jerry ... '

'If you nail a piece of plywood over that door, you are cutting off both the natural light and ventilation provided by that door'.

Aye, Capitan, but, as was stated, there are windows in that room, and this door *was added*, matey, thus, the original windows were all which were intended anyway.

Ifn ya don't agree, ya get ta walk da plank.

Hi Jerry:

"'If you nail a piece of plywood over that door, you are cutting off both the natural light and ventilation provided by that door'." LOL, get real! If one is really concerned about the natural light, just install a tempered glass window in this door way.

I agree with your solution, and I also agree with Jon's.

Take care,

Travis

I'm not trying to start an argument here, just saying my opinion of how the 2006 IRC code reads.

Double cyl deadbolts are allowed on all doors except the required exit door.
Only one door is required to be the exit door.
The required exit door cannot open into a garage.
The required exit door must have hinges on the side.
The required exit door must be as least 36x80.
The required exit door must be able to open without keys, tools, or special knowledge.
The required exit door must lead to the outside or to a stairway/ ramp that leads to the outside.
Not all doors are (or even required to be) exit doors.
IE Sliding glass patio doors, do not have hinges
Many doors are less than 36" wide, I see 32" back/ side/ kitchen doors often.
Doors that open into an attached garage are restricted form being the required exit door, but we do have doors going into the garage.
Doors going to a balcony do not lead to a stair or ramp, and are not the required exit door.
(On doors that open onto a balcony, a dbl cyl lock may be useful to keep children off the balcony).
Some homes with pools have a door going directly to to pool area.
A dbl cyl lock may be an effective means of keeping children out of the pool.
If the door is not THE exit door, then there is not a restriction on using a key to open the door.

So how does this relate to the orginal post?
For sure, this is not the required exit or egress door, and since it is not the exit or egress door then there is no restriction on using a key, or special knolodge. In fact it is not even an exit door at all.

If it is your opinion that dbl cyl locks are a saftey issue then write it up.

If I am in error feel free to point it out.

R311.4 Doors.
R311.4.1 Exit door required.

Not less than one exit door
conforming to this section shall be provided for each dwelling
unit. The required exit door shall provide for direct
access from the habitable portions of the dwelling to the
exterior without requiring travel through a garage. Access to
habitable levels not having an exit in accordance with this
section shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section
R311.6 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.5.

R311.4.2 Door type and size.

The required exit door shall
be a side-hinged door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width
and 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. Other doors shall
not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions.

R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch.

All egress doors shall be
readily openable from the side from which egress is to be
made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

Originally Posted by Travis Grubbs

and I also agree with Jon's.

(sigh)

From Jon:

3. Install 2 keyed deadbolts. Cost to hire contractor $50-75 / 1 hour job max.
Doesn't damage door, can't be manipulated (though older kids may be able to pick the deadbolts). This impedes escape, but remember that there are windows in this area.

(sigh)

That's what many of us have been telling you *NOT* to do.

It seems to be that either: a) you just don't "get it", or, b) you just don't care. I've been hoping it was a) and that additional information might help you out. I see it will not.

We (many of us) have taken this horse to the water, pushed its head down to the water, and, it now seems, can only drown the horse if any further effort is applied.

Rick,

I'll point out where you are reading it correctly and incorrectly.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

R311.4 Doors.

R311.4.1 Exit door required. Not less than one exit door
conforming to this section shall be provided for each dwelling
unit. The required exit door shall provide for direct
access from the habitable portions of the dwelling to the
exterior without requiring travel through a garage. Access to
habitable levels not having an exit in accordance with this
section shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section

R311.6 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.5.

Yep. That is referring to the "required" "exit door". Your highlighting is correct in that it is highlighting "Not less than one exit door" and "The required exit door".

R311.4.2 Door type and size.

The required exit door shall be a side-hinged door not less than 3 feet (914 mm) in width and 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) in height. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions.

Yep. Again, this is referring to the "required" "exit door" and its *size*. Your highlighting of "Other doors shall not be required to comply with these dimensions" is stating precisely that "*WITH THESE DIMENSIONS*". Not anything else - "dimensions" only. I.e., you can have a back door which is less than 3 feet wide which is not the required exit door.

R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch.

All egress doors shall be readily openable from the side from which egress is to be made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

Yep. Here, though, you are reading something in and missing something which is there ... "ALL EGRESS DOORS" ...

No where does it state "The required exit door", it states "ALL EGRESS DOORS".

Being as neither the IRC nor the IBC defines either 'egress door' or 'door, egress', here is the definition of egress (we all know what a door is):

egress

2 entries found for egress.
To select an entry, click on it. egress[1,noun]egress[2,intransitive verb] Main Entry: 1egress
Pronunciation: 'E-"gres
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin egressus, from egredi to go out, from e- + gradi to go -- more at GRADE
1 : the action or right of going or coming out
2 : a place or means of going out : EXIT

THUS, *ALL* "EGRESS DOORS" must have a lock or latch which meets that section, if they have a lock or latch.

Good morning Jerry
Yes, I see that there is a change in terminology, from exit to egress.
It does leave room for question ( my opinion).

Jerry:

Please add choice: C. I am concerned about an obvious safety hazard that has been installed in a child's play area than whether the locks on the door meets the "code".

You and Jon both offer viable solutions to secure an obvious safety hazard. One may not meet the "code", but then what was the code when this house was built? Or what was "code" when the door was installed? You can find posts all over InspectionNews.net where inspectors state that they do not inspect to the "code", but you let a difference of opinion come out and inspectors start citing the "code" (whether they are certified or whether they even inspect to it).

I am certified on the IRC. I am not offerring a code solution. I view yours and Jon's solutions as common sense solutions to secure the door. Don't like? Fine. You just can't get it? I agree.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Good morning Jerry
Yes, I see that there is a change in terminology, from exit to egress.
It does leave room for question ( my opinion).

Rick,

Not what I was referring to, or what I was highlighting.

I was referring to, and highlighting, these parts (hope this clears up your question and shows why there is no question or other 'opinion'):

a) *THE* *REQUIRED* (exit/egress/waytogetoutside/whatever) door.

b) *ALL* (exit/egress/waytogetoutside/whatever) doors.

Notice that b) goes with "All egress doors shall be readily openable from the side from which egress is to be made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort."

Therein lies the content and intent - *ALL*.

Originally Posted by Travis Grubbs

I am certified on the IRC. I am not offerring a code solution.

(sigh)

Travis,

You are missing the point, and, at risk of drowning the horse, *you are not offering a SAFE solution* either.

Code or no code.

I can hear the horse's air bubbles surfacing now, so I will let go, either drown or drink ... or walk away. No one, apparently, can get through the fog.

Jerry, I have to confess to having been swayed by your posts on this. I was not all that interested in this thread, but had my opinion that just the "required" door could not have double cylinder dead bolts. But after reading the exceptions a little more closely, by gosh, I learned some thing today. One more thing to put on my list. Every other item NOT required for all exterior doors (size, landings) is specifically mentioned, not locks.
Thanks, Jim

Ok so maybe I am Stupid
stu·pid (stōō'pĭd, styōō'-) Pronunciation Key
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.

I still don't think that all exterior doors are allways egress doors, and centainly not that one.

Rick:

I think you make a great point about this particular door.

Jerry Peck:

I was not going to reply to your last post. I was just going to let you have the last word. It was going to be my way of showing respect to my "elder". So I decided to read the posts on Mobile Home Ceiling Material. And that is where I saw another one of your responses. I kept on reading, again respecting my aging elder, and then you started bringing up your analogy featuring a horse, leading it to drink, seeing it standing in water, and then drowning it, etc.

What is it with you and drowning horses? That is some weird fixtation that you have going on. You need to get help, or at least get some new material when arguing with others.

Here is a perfect example of good intentions gone bad.

Like the residents you may only get one chance to answer correctly.

a) good idea
b) bad idea

I choose "A". Why? Because these rails give you some thing to climb up on so that you can increase your elevation as you prepare to jump out of the door, and to your death.

Travis

Barry,

I choose C) Stairway to heaven.