Thread: Interior Drywall Nail "Pops"

What kind of explanation do you give for drywall nail "pops" around the extrior of ceiling drywall? I've been told framing lumber that has not been completely kiln dried, or changes in humidity/temperature are to blame, but I suspect there's more to the story....

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Remove the nail, use a screw, mud, paint and move on.

I explain it as mositure content changes swelling and drying the wood framing pushing the nails around.

House is possessed and in need of an Exorcism.

In some cases, top floor, it could be from truss uplift, but the treatment is the same. Patch before paint.

Exterior drywall? I think you meant interior? As others stated; drying (shrinkage) framing members, or building movement/ settlement?

I just ran into this last weekend for the first time. The mud and paint has popped off the nail head in numerous locations around a new (not lived in, 2011) home. Evidence of corrosion around where the nail head came into contact with the joint compound. Mostly occurring around the corners of the walls. Could the fastener be having a chemical reaction with the mud? No evidence of excessive moisture. Fasteners still seem to be holding the drywall in place.

Is there any reason to use nails besides speed and economy ($)?

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Exterior drywall? I think you meant interior? ...

Methinks he means "around the perimeter".

Nail Pops Causes
Problems can occur when:

Lumber dries in an uncontrolled manner.
Wet lumber is used.
Insufficient screws are used on a wall.
The drywall is not properly secured.
Crowns in studs and joists are not checked and placed the same way.
In summary, nail pops are often related to causes such as:

Uncontrolled drying of studs in the wall; This is quite frequently due to the use of unvented propane or gas heaters during the taping stage of the house.
Uncontrolled drying caused by framing that is done too slowly or left to sit for several weeks. If framing is left exposed to the elements it must be held in place to restrain shrinkage.
Using wet lumber; It may result in nail pops or corner bead separation if the house is drywalled before the moisture levels have stabilized.
FYI

The drying is accelerated during the first heating season.
Longer nails tend to pop further than short nails.
Nails tend to pop more than screws.

Nail Pops -- Best Practice
Shrinkage is the major cause of nail pops. As wood dries it tends to shrink, nails don't. When the wood shrinks it pops the nails through the gypsum board.

To avoid nail pops, consider the following:

Use framing lumber with the lowest possible moisture content According to the OBC lumber may not have more than 19% moisture content.
Avoid lumber that is grade stamped green.
When possible, use kiln dried lumber.
Protect lumber on the job site from sun, rain and snow. (For more information regarding lumber storage practices please see warped studs.)
Inspect all framing before insulation. Studs should not differ by more than 6 mm (¼"). If they do, they should be replaced or saw-cut and wedged.
Improperly nailed bridging will cause joist deflection and nail pops in ceilings.

Nail or screw drywall onto trusses no closer than 18" from intersecting partitions.
If possible, consider using finger jointed studs and kiln dried lumber as alternatives.
Use nails which are as short as possible and which grip the wood to prevent pullout. Nails that are 31 mm (1-1/4") long with annular rings are short enough to minimize the push out of the shrinking wood and have good pull out capacity because of the annular rings.
When and where possible, use screws to reduce the likelihood of nail pops.
Use screws and double nailing to pull boards tight against with framing and further reduce the likelihood of nail pop-out.
Consider using adhesives and resilient furring; They are becoming alternatives to conventional drywall installation.
When considering alternatives, determine their economic feasibility depending on the severity of the problem in a given region.

Nail Pops -- Repair Solutions
To repair pops, nails and screws need to be reset or removed and the hole patched.
Repair jobs created by lumber problems can have further implications:

Repair drywall after nail pop is fixed.
Repaint as necessary.
Nail pops can be expensive to repair. The best solution is to avoid them altogether.

Raymond your an author as well, look at those wonderful words. May I have your permission to borrow some or all of them

[quote=Raymond Wand;184083]Nail Pops Causes
Problems can occur when:

Sure, but I borrowed it from someone else...

Originally Posted by Luc V. L.

I just ran into this last weekend for the first time. The mud and paint has popped off the nail head in numerous locations around a new (not lived in, 2011) home. Evidence of corrosion around where the nail head came into contact with the joint compound. Mostly occurring around the corners of the walls. Could the fastener be having a chemical reaction with the mud? No evidence of excessive moisture. Fasteners still seem to be holding the drywall in place.

Is there any reason to use nails besides speed and economy ($)?

NO! That's just bad, bad, bad, I would never purchase such a recipe for disaster! This is why they have phosphate coated drywall screws. Not only do they hold better and not rust, they're shaped so that they can be screwed below the surface of the drywall without puncturing the paper layer. Once you puncture that, there's a much greater chance that the drywall will pull away from the studs, and that gap is where the popping problem lies. I'm surprised people still use nails.

Found this bit about nails popping around the edges of ceilings here:

"The mechanism for ceiling pops can be related to shrinking of the top and bottom wall plates, which forces the drywall on the wall against the drywall on the ceiling,, again causing the gap between the face of the wood framing member (in this case a ceiling joist or truss) and the backside of the drywall to close, forcing the head of the fastener through the face of the ceiling. Truss uplift can also cause movement of the ceiling, causing popping, as well as other problems. Popping caused by either of these mechanisms usually occurs at the perimeter of the room."

Just curious, and don't mean to nitpick, but when someone is directly quoted, is it not customary to give them credit? I know I would want it.

Kristi wrote,

Just curious, and don't mean to nitpick, but when someone is directly quoted, is it not customary to give them credit? I know I would want it.

Well if you must know, the info I posted was from another forum of which the postees use a nom de plume and is a private forum. Therefore, I cannot attribute the material to the actual author, nor to the site.

I trust that satisfies your inquisitive non 'nitpicking' question?

Kristi,
Nails are the fast and cheep way to hang drywall. It can be a roll of the dice for the builder on how many nail repairs that the builder will have to go back and repair while the builder has to warrant the work.

Double screwing with gluing is the best way but more time and material to do. Builders typically will not over do something if they can put that money in their pocket.

Even with screwed installation they will typically use some nails to initially set the drywall in place and then screw it to finish job. Speeds up installation process.


Vuc,
Thanks for making me feel old. Reading that the nail pops that you saw were you first. Made me think about my first time some 45 yrs ago. Ahhhhh to be young again.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Even with screwed installation they will typically use some nails to initially set the drywall in place and then screw it to finish job. Speeds up installation process.

That is quite common, it is also done incorrectly most of those times because they count the nails as screws for their spacing, but nails require a closer spacing, which means the drywall is not attached properly.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Kristi wrote,

Well if you must know, the info I posted was from another forum of which the postees use a nom de plume and is a private forum. Therefore, I cannot attribute the material to the actual author, nor to the site.

I trust that satisfies your inquisitive non 'nitpicking' question?

Sorry, maybe it was nitpicking...well, no, I don't think so really because it was a question not just aimed at you, Raymond, or your post, but in general for the forum. It has come up in other forums I've been in, and I was interested how people around here handle it. Not a biggie!

I guess I'm just surprised when I see the fast and cheap way some contractors work. I was trained differently. I've hung a ton of drywall, never used a nail once. Never glued it, either, though.

Kristi,
How much drywall have you physically hung?
Was it as a contractor or working for a contractor?
I am intrigued.

Back to the original post....

I do not really talk about nail pops other than to tell folks when I do a 1 year warranty inspection that they need to get their builder to repair them.

Nail pops are just a way of life in new construction, it is going to happen! Some are worse than others and the trick on our part is to know when it is just a nail pop from the framing drying or if it is more of a structural problem.

Garry,

I worked with my uncle on and off for 5 years doing all kinds of remodeling and additions. He worked alone on the smaller jobs, but called me in for the big stuff. The biggest we did was a 4000 sq ft addition to a Victorian B&B - complete with hidden doors, trap doors, and a network of secret passages that went from basement to the rooftop gazebo. We did everything but the foundation, HVAC, plumbing, electric, ironwork, and installation of the infloor radiant heating (geothermal). There are some photos of it in my intro thread (and that project is where my avatar's from).

Anyway, that was just one project, and I'm sure I've hung literally at least a ton of drywall. Probably several tons, come to think of it - that stuff's heavy!

After New Year's we'll be reroofing my own house.

I've done some remodeling on my own, too - interior framing, flooring, drywall, trimwork, etc.

Have lifted and nailed and then turned to screws as soon as the screw gun become remotely popular. I have lifted thousands and thousands and who knows how many thousands of sheets of drywall in residential and commercial buildings and this thread and others like it have to remind me of it.

The first sheets were lifted in the early teens. Unloading countless truck loads of drywall and then hanging it all over and over and over so many times I could not begin to try to express. Unloading countless trucks into apartment buildings and when the truck rolled away the drywall was going up until the next truck came. Even in my own business in the later teens and well into decades after that. When ever there was a need at a job site the tools went on and the drywall went up, along with everything else in the building.

At 57 it still brings in the nightmares

Just wanted to share the thoughts threads like this bring up.

Nail pops. Screw pops. Yup, seen em.

Many times when I am fixing these pops, I find that the nail completely missed the stud or barely caught a sliver of it.

The explanation is very simple.......Murphy's Law.......
"Nails never work in, they always work out"

'Half the people you know are below average'

Yeah, I thought of that, too - using a nail gun makes it a lot harder to know when you're hitting a stud. If a screw doesn't hit anything, you have to take it out.

Sounds like Ted did nothing but drywall! That would get old. I kinda like hanging it, it makes a room finally feel like a room, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time. The part I don't like is sanding.

PS - if you're looking for a stud on a finished wall, one good way to find it is by taking a neodymium magnet and using it to look for the fasteners. Even a little one will hang on a wall where a nail/screw is. A lot more precise than a stud finder.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

The explanation is very simple.......Murphy's Law.......
"Nails never work in, they always work out"

'Half the people you know are below average'

'Nail never work in, always work out'

I thought that was traced back to Confucius ...

Half the people I know are above average.

Murphy would say something like: Nails always go into the studs, until you need to hang something heavy, then no stud anywhere around.

Ted

You wouldn't happen to have an arthretic neck and shoulders?

As young "stud" carpenters we never failed to pack less than 8 pre-cut studs on our shoulders when framing a house and most of the time they had just come out of the pond. Now in our old age we are paying dearly for that foolishness.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Ted

You wouldn't happen to have an arthretic neck and shoulders?

As young "stud" carpenters we never failed to pack less than 8 pre-cut studs on our shoulders when framing a house and most of the time they had just come out of the pond. Now in our old age we are paying dearly for that foolishness.

How about this on commercial jobs. Show up and you find out your a couple men short so you are up 5 stories on the scaffold with a single plank running end to end. Grab a frame with arms stretched out as far as they go with the frame surrounding you and bounce all the way to the other end of the scaffold (maybe a couple hundred feet out at the other end of the atrium you are building) to now lift the frame up in front of you with arms stretch out to set it on the pegs.

My own jobs or as a worker for someone else when I was younger. I did not have my men do anything that I would not. Most would not or could not do half of what I attempted on way too many occasions.

How about a junk back with already a coupler back operations and probably should have had many more.

Now throw in the dirt bike crashes and the hot rod racing.

I love it when someone gets a little boo boo and says man that hurt. I just look at them and think to myself. You don't know what hurt is.

I love it when folks say they work hard for a living. Yep, maybe with the brain and the fingers, but they have no idea what hard work is and have no respect for it. Just imagine working with your brain and your back and every other square inch of your body inside and out.

Crushed foot a couple times, shattered shoulder socket when I about ripped my arm off. Broke the right arm in half at the elbow, broke the lower forearm in three places, repaired L3/L4 and L5/S1 discs leaking etc etc etc etc etc.

I think you get the picture. Still walking and can still do more than most. The hurt may be there on a constant basis but know when ever knows. Up until a dozen years ago I was still doing it all.

Here's an interesting technical reply to the issue of "nail pops" in exterior walls that I've gotten from a particular high-quality builder locally:
He argues that the interior vapor barrier (that I routinely specify and require) "traps" or raises the humidity in the house (just like it's supposed to). But, he argues, in a well-insulated exterior wall (or ceiling) if the drywall nails (or screws) are a little extra long (... sign of a good builder?) that the metal nail or screw penetrates far enough into the stud to actually get past enough of the adjacent insulation so that the tip of the metal fastener is actually colder (in winter) than is the inside wall face. With the high thermally conductivity of the metal fastener, the humidity level inside can actually cause condensation to form on the cold fastener head (under a the finishing compound), which then rusts, which causes expansion -- and drywall mud "pops". He's shown me examples of this, particularly a year or two later in which the fastener head clearly rusted -- and I have no explanation for the rust -- but I can clearly see how it could cause the drywall mud coating to "pop" loose from the expansion pressure from off the head of the nail.
Now if one actually runs some technical numbers, he's right -- in a 3-1/2" thick exterior wall, a 2-1/4" drywall nail or screw, driven below the face surface of the drywall, actually does end up more than halfway through the insulation envelope of the wall, and more technically, can lead to the inside head being 20 degrees colder on a cold Central Virginia winter night. Add a reasonably comfortable humidity level inside -- say 35% to 40% -- and the temperature of the head of the fastener will actually be below the dew point at that point in the wall, so condensation occurs.
I can appreciate the builder's frustration -- although I don't like his solution -- which is to insist an putting in a "less intact" vapor retarder, thus lowering the interior humidity, and thus preventing the drywall pops.
But I don't have a better solution for him except to suggest using more construction adhesive and shorter fasteners.... Anybody else?

I created a mother-in-law apartment in my barn. I nailed all the drywall with regular drywall nails, not ringshank or extra long. I carefully pulled any nails that didn't feel like they bit wood. My nails were galvanized.

I hired a drywall finisher for the finish. (I can do it, but I am sloth slow) His first comment was that I should have used drywall screws. During my years in construction (more years ago than I care to remember), we always used nails for wood studs and thus, I did the same here.

We get plenty cold out here, hitting -20 most winters. So far, five years later, I don't have a single nail pop.

While your builder's hypothesis is intriguing, as I stated earlier, when I am cleaning up nail pops, I invariably find that the nail or screw missed or barely caught the edge of the stud.

If there is anything to your builder's idea, then the fix might be using coated screws.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

I hired a drywall finisher for the finish. His first comment was that I should have used drywall screws.

He might have been whining because your hammer marks are deeper and bigger in diameter than the little divots made by screws, so it was going to take more mud. You are lucky. A lot of drywallers won't finish someone else's boarding.

There are millions of houses in North America that are finished with nailed drywall. No problem if it's done right.

Kiln dried studs? Without an approximate 19% moisture content you would have a tough time driving a 16d into that stud.
How many guys do you think use 1-1/4" drywall screws in 5/8" gypboard?
Always check screw length and always use the proper length gypboard screws. Screws have over 3 times the withdrawel tension of nails from wood framing material.

W. C. Jerry,

That linked pdf shows an error on fastening of the truss clips.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

W. C. Jerry,

That linked pdf shows an error on fastening of the truss clips.

The screw should be a hardened nail? Or am I just having a senility moment?

EC Jerry - you mean the slot nail is to high in the slot?

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

EC Jerry - you mean the slot nail is to high in the slot?

Yep.

That and the next drawing shows the truss raised up and the screw still at the top of the slot.

I understand the concept of the slot allowing the screw to slide up and down, but I am having difficulty understanding the science behind the elastic metal clip which much be elastic enough to stretch up and down, yet resist side-to-side elasticity.

This is what it should look like.

I always used screws on the ceiling when screws entered the picture. I also would double them.
What I never considered was the length, and keeping the screws a distance from the wall, except for nailers of course.
Thank You.

I had a xray of my shoulders last year and the radiologist asked me if I work construction. "Yes, I responded, "howd U know"? " Cause your sockets are elongated" was the answer.
Soon as I don't have to work for a living I'm going for the MRI my Doc's been pestering me about.
Trouble is... I can barely work for a living with these dammmed shoulders.
Good thing I got rich doing it, right?
Catch 22, or in my situation, catch up 2U in your fifty's.

Bob, show me a construction worker and I'll show you a bad back.... then neck, arms, knees, ankles, hands, etc.

EC Jerry.... agree.

Huh. I don't understand how the drywall clips at the corners maintain the floating drywall thing, since they serve as attachment points. (It seems like you'd want some form of attachment anyway, so I don't have a problem with the clips per se.)

It also seems a little odd that they say the ceiling screws can be 18" from the corner that has clips, considering the screws are supposed to be 12" or less apart (we always did 8" on the edge, but I can't find code saying that's necessary).

How many guys do you think use 1-1/4" drywall screws in 5/8" gypboard?

(Jerry McCarthy)

What are you saying? Is that a good or a bad thing? I would use 1 5/8" screws, but evidently 1 1/4" would be acceptible.

R702.3.6 Fastening. Screws for attaching gypsum board to wood framing shall be Type W or Type S in accordance with ASTM C 1002 and shall penetrate the wood not less than 5/8 inch (16 mm).

.....................................

Now if one actually runs some technical numbers, he's right -- in a 3-1/2" thick exterior wall, a 2-1/4" drywall nail or screw, driven below the face surface of the drywall, actually does end up more than halfway through the insulation envelope of the wall...

(Ron Keeney)

Why would anyone use 2 1/4" nails (or screws) for drywall anyway?

Kristi
2 suggestions if I may; #1. learn what a "floating corner" is and why they employ them. (see my previous post with attachment) and #2. Read Table R702.3.5. 2009 IRC.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Garry,

I worked with my uncle on and off for 5 years doing all kinds of remodeling and additions. He worked alone on the smaller jobs, but called me in for the big stuff. The biggest we did was a 4000 sq ft addition to a Victorian B&B - complete with hidden doors, trap doors, and a network of secret passages that went from basement to the rooftop gazebo. We did everything but the foundation, HVAC, plumbing, electric, ironwork, and installation of the infloor radiant heating (geothermal). There are some photos of it in my intro thread (and that project is where my avatar's from).

Anyway, that was just one project, and I'm sure I've hung literally at least a ton of drywall. Probably several tons, come to think of it - that stuff's heavy!

After New Year's we'll be reroofing my own house.

I've done some remodeling on my own, too - interior framing, flooring, drywall, trimwork, etc.

How can you do everything but?

Jerry, I had looked at your attachment, I'd pored over it. Maybe I am just misunderstanding it. And I had already seen Table R702.3.5., though it was the 2012 version. Nevermind.

Tom, I don't understand your question. Is that a question?

What Kristi said, I don't get your inference either T.T. ? Is that some sort of statement or a question?
No assumption here, just asking.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Jerry, I had looked at your attachment, I'd pored over it. Maybe I am just misunderstanding it. And I had already seen Table R702.3.5., though it was the 2012 version. Nevermind.

Tom, I don't understand your question. Is that a question?

You wrote "We did everything, but" I am just messing with you, how could we of done everything but? (all trades)

All trades? Maybe I should have listed it the other way, and said, we did the demo, framing, sheathing, roofing, siding, window and door installation, drywall, flooring, cabinet installation and trimwork. And installed the dumbwaiter.

Kristi, as you saying TT works in a restaurant? Not very nice.

Oops, forgot to add..... Kristi said 'dumbwaiter'. Well it sounded funny in my exhausted brain. The inspections today just killed me.... DYI's

That was silly, but it got a giggle out of me. (No reflection on you, Tom - I appreciate a little wordplay!)

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

And installed the dumbwaiter.

Originally Posted by bob smit

Oops, forgot to add..... Kristi said 'dumbwaiter'. Well it sounded funny in my exhausted brain.

I'm not sure that Kristi installed them, but I've had some real dumbwaiters lately.

We're goin to need waiters if it gets any deeper tonight

Nial pops in drywall ceilings could be from inadequate ceiling member bracing. If the drywall ceiling is attached directly to the bottom of roof trusses without perimeter blocking, you could get nail pops. The truss drawings ussually call for a ridged ceiling attached directly to the bottom of the trusses or 2x4 bracing bracing installed x amount on center. A ridged ceiling is a drywall diaphram. To make a ceiling drywall diaphram you have to install a 2x6 flat of the top plate and let it hang over 4 inches into the interior for permeter nailing or screwing the drywall. Check out chapter 7 of the IRC.

Another reason to nial pop is the gable end is braced to ceiling framing members instead to the roof framing members.

With a properly braced ceiling you should not have nail pops.

Is there any reason to use nails besides speed and economy ($)?

A resounding No. This is a product of the low bid system. Unfortunately, most everyone wants the lowest short term cost and then sticks their head in the sand when it's time to consider quality and long term cost. It is possible to clarify this is the bidding process, but that is rarely done. A builder who is that concienscious will not be a low bidder / competitive and precious few of them survive economically. Sadly, you only need add maybe 2% to the low bidder and the problem is addressed. Not sayin pops never happen with screws, but probably 90% less.