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  1. #1
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    Default FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Does anyone know what year the code came into effect for fire doors between house and garage? Of course I am recommending it, but I need the date of the code if anyone knows.

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Escamilla View Post
    Does anyone know what year the code came into effect for fire doors between house and garage? Of course I am recommending it, but I need the date of the code if anyone knows.

    Thanks.
    There still is no requirement for a fire door between the house and the garage, except possibly for a few areas which have that as a requirement not in the model codes.

    There is a requirement for a separation door, and one of the options is a 20-minute rated door, but that is just one of the options.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    I misspoke on that Jerry. Yes, the fire seaparation door with self closer. Do you happen to know when that code was first put in place?


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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Escamilla View Post
    I misspoke on that Jerry. Yes, the fire seaparation door with self closer. Do you happen to know when that code was first put in place?
    Tony,

    Not a requirement for the self-closer either, except in a few areas which may require it in addition to the code required separation doors.

    Some of the older codes required the self-closing door (such as the South Florida Building Code, both the Dade and Broward county editions, and I believe the Standard Building Code did too), but that was lost during the combination of model codes into the ICC codes).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    I found a 1985 code ICBO book which calls out self closing 1 3/8 20 min doors. The addition on that date was the sheet metal duct protrutions. I'm going to try to track down some older code books to see when it first appears.

    Thanks Jerry


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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Escamilla View Post
    Does anyone know what year the code came into effect for fire doors between house and garage? Of course I am recommending it, but I need the date of the code if anyone knows.

    Thanks.
    IRC requires metal door, solid wood door minimum thickness of 1-3/8" or a 20 minute rated door. Door does not have to be rated or have a closer in R-3 applications. No glass.


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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    California has required for many, many years an automatic closer on the door between the attached garage and a dwelling.

    You can refer to the history of the codes page at the California Contractors Licensing Board's web site.


    You can also check with the local building office.


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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Benson View Post
    IRC requires metal door, solid wood door minimum thickness of 1-3/8" or a 20 minute rated door. Door does not have to be rated or have a closer in R-3 applications. No glass.
    John,

    Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?

    If you are like me, I see those all the time.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?

    If you are like me, I see those all the time.
    Information here might help some.

    Wood raised panel.
    Fire Rated Interior Wood Veneer Doors - Homestead Interior Doors

    Caldwells - San Francisco's Door Company Fire Doors

    Twenty minute fiber glass.
    Therma-Tru Doors: Fire-Rated Doors - 20-Min Fiberglass Doors

    MDF Doors
    A Word about MDF Fire Rated Doors « Pre Hung Doors Blog | Fire Rated Doors | Door Stop NY

    TruStile Technical Info | Fire Doors | Product Data Sheets




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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    In Cali universally, well before 1980, however, moot since the fire code maintenance provisions required maintenance of same regarding separation of occupancies and in Cali an attached carport or garage ("U")to a single family res (Group R, 3) has been considered a separation of occupancies for decades, and any maintenance or the need for same has envoked the requirement for a self-closing door in the separation. This was precribed in Title 24 upon the creation of same and its Fire Code provisions regarding older buildings. Res. construction in Calif pre 1978 was still under the UBC. The Fire Marshall's office dictated separations and maintenance thereof retrospectively, even if the UBC under Housing didn't at the time of construction.

    The codes and various requirements in Calif were a jumbled maze from the mid 50s to about 78, even if not enforced there were similar provisions many years prior to 80, hard to find, in remote areas not always enforced even in new construction.

    Not unlike the requirement for smoke detectors or GFCI protection upon maintenance of a supplying circuit or replacement of a receptacle in a zone required to have such protection.

    Solid core doors 1-3/4", paneled doors - panel ares not less than 9/16 in. thick, or the Calif. adopted code used to specify tin-coated doors with self-closers, or Rated Fire door assembly. If UL rated fire door assembly with specified door closer, must be maintained as such; all occupancy separation doors with UBC prescribed separation fire-resistant construction, require self-closers, if fused to closer must be maintained as such.

    Ask West-Coast Jerry (Jerry Mc) when "suicide vents" were no longer required for attached U garage occupancies to R3 SFR.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-20-2012 at 07:28 PM.

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?

    If you are like me, I see those all the time.
    Marcel,

    Notice something in your information which was not included in my information and question?

    Me: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?"

    Nothing in there about a fire-rated door, only a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door.

    Now the question goes to you: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?" And that question *does not include* "fire-rated" doors as a door which is fire-rated can be any thickness they want it to be provided they can get it to pass the tests.

    So ... back to the question (I will re-word it for you ): Can a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door (which is not a fire-rated door) be used for the door between the garage and the residence? If so, why, and, if not, why not?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Marcel,

    Notice something in your information which was not included in my information and question?

    Me: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?"

    Nothing in there about a fire-rated door, only a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door.

    Now the question goes to you: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?" And that question *does not include* "fire-rated" doors as a door which is fire-rated can be any thickness they want it to be provided they can get it to pass the tests.

    So ... back to the question (I will re-word it for you ): Can a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door (which is not a fire-rated door) be used for the door between the garage and the residence? If so, why, and, if not, why not?
    First, any solid door will meet the 20 minute rating as required by code if not listed as a fire rated door.
    The thickness of 1-3/8" thickness is listed as a minumum by code and does not address a 1-3/4" solid core door with raised panels.
    Any door installed, if solid, will meet the 20 minute rating.



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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Marcel,

    Notice something in your information which was not included in my information and question?

    Me: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?"

    Nothing in there about a fire-rated door, only a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door.

    Now the question goes to you: "Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?" And that question *does not include* "fire-rated" doors as a door which is fire-rated can be any thickness they want it to be provided they can get it to pass the tests.

    So ... back to the question (I will re-word it for you ): Can a 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel door (which is not a fire-rated door) be used for the door between the garage and the residence? If so, why, and, if not, why not?
    Well this topic should be interesting to follow

    In one corner we have Mr P with 100s of certificiations recognized by almost every building department in the country, and an inspector thats completed 1000s of professional home inspections

    And in the other corner we have Mr C. an inspector thats completed maybe 100 inspection's.. BUT he was bestoyed the Elite title of a Master Certified Inspector mainly due to his ability to inpress newbys by searching google/ search the web and provide that infomation to newby inspectors

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    Well this topic should be interesting to follow

    In one corner we have Mr P with 100s of certificiations recognized by almost every building department in the country, and an inspector thats completed 1000s of professional home inspections

    And in the other corner we have Mr C. an inspector thats completed maybe 100 inspection's.. BUT he was bestoyed the Elite title of a Master Certified Inspector mainly due to his ability to inpress newbys by searching google/ search the web and provide that infomation to newby inspectors


    And how about 45 years in the Building Industry Mr. Harris all mighty.

    Inspected more buildings than you will ever see buddy.

    And you don't have a clue.

    Google is only as good as you can locate the closet back up to please the naysayers.



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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Cyr View Post
    First, any solid door will meet the 20 minute rating as required by code if not listed as a fire rated door.
    Incorrect answer.

    The thickness of 1-3/8" thickness is listed as a minumum by code and does not address a 1-3/4" solid core door with raised panels.
    Any door installed, if solid, will meet the 20 minute rating.
    Incorrect answer again.

    Have you ever measured the "recessed" areas in a "raised panel" door or in a molded panel door?

    A 1-3/4", solid wood, raised panel, door varies in thickness at the recesses of the raised panels, but the thickness varies around 1/2".

    Don't believe me? Lay a straight edge across the face of the door and measure in to the recess, repeat for other face of the door, add those two measurements together and that is *how much wood is not there* for that 1-3/4" door. You will probably measure a recess of about 5/8" in from each face, 5/8" + 5/8" = 10/8" = 1-1/4" *wood not there* (it is a recess, remember?), which leaves approximately 1/2" of "solid wood" at the recesses. You were correct on one aspect, though, and that is that the *minimum* thickness allowed is 1-3/8".

    A molded panel door has recesses which are not as deep as the real raised panel door it is trying to look like, but the recesses are approximately 1/2" deep, which makes a 1-3/4 door only 3/4" deep at the recesses, and that does not meet the minimum of 1-3/8".

    Now, *IF* that molded panel door with the 1/2" recesses is a 20-minute rated door ... *the it does not matter how thick the door is*, the door is 20-minute rated and that is one option.

    Next time any of you see a raised panel door or a molded panel door to the garage, measure the recesses and let us know what you get for the door "thickness" at those recessed areas.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Now, let's add another quirk to the raised panel or molded panel door:
    - it is molded hardwood on each face (for lack of a better term)
    - it is fiberglass on each face

    Will those door work even if the recesses are 1-3/4" thick, or let's say that the raised panel look is applied to the door?

    Let's review the options again:
    - "Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with":
    - a) "solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness",
    - b) "solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick",
    - c) "or 20-minute fire-rated doors."

    Are those types of doors:
    a) solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness?
    b) solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick?
    c) (we already know they are not 20-minute rated doors because we are discussing non-rated doors, so c) is not even an option for this question/discussion)

    No, those doors do not meet a) or b) (and we already know those doors are not c) because we said they were non-rated).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Have you ever thought about if 1-3/4" raised panel or molded panel doors meet those options?

    If you are like me, I see those all the time.
    I do too. If the door is rated 20 minutes I don't care what it is made of or how thick it is. If it doesn't have a rating plate and is solid wood less than 1-3/8" thick (anywhere on the door) I turn it down. Looks like we agree.


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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Benson View Post
    I do too. If the door is rated 20 minutes I don't care what it is made of or how thick it is. If it doesn't have a rating plate and is solid wood less than 1-3/8" thick (anywhere on the door) I turn it down. Looks like we agree.
    Yep, we agree on that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Escamilla View Post
    Does anyone know what year the code came into effect for fire doors between house and garage? Of course I am recommending it, but I need the date of the code if anyone knows.

    Thanks.
    The 2006 edition of the International Residential Code (IRC) states the following concerning doors that separate garages from living areas:
    R309.1 Opening Penetration
    Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and the residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1-3/8” (35 mm) in thickness, solid- or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1-3/8” (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.


    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    [quote=Dan Harris;196302]Well this topic should be interesting to follow

    In one corner we have Mr P with 100s of certificiations recognized by almost every building department in the country, and an inspector thats completed 1000s of professional home inspections

    And in the other corner we have Mr C. an inspector thats completed maybe 100 inspection's.. BUT he was bestoyed the Elite title of a Master Certified Inspector mainly due to his ability to inpress newbys by searching google/ search the web and provide that infomation to newby inspectors [/quote

    Maybe Mr. Harris should learn how to spell "me thinks Marcel."

    Lets break down his observations.
    Mr. P. that's completed 1000s of professional home inspections.
    as compared to;
    Mr. Cry's completed maybe 100 inspection's.
    A biased statement Mr. Harris. Using an unknown number. Hmmmm....


    The amount of inspections one does does not mean they are compliant.
    You are using a number for referencing professionalism. Reports being peer reviewed for validity by a third party and using the same SOP might be a better way to calibrate and individual.


    "bestoyed (bestowed) the Elite title of a Master Certified Inspect for mainly due to his ability to inpress (Impress) newbys by searching google/ search the web and provide that infomation to newby inspectors.
    Proof please.
    You need to have an background investigation for all the necessary requirements and it be notarized for authenticity to be a CMI.

    Welcome to the Master Inspector Certification Board, Inc. …
    Home of the best Board-Certified™ inspectors in the world.
    • Completing 1,000 fee-paid inspections and/or hours of inspection-related Continuing Education courses (combined) in their lifetime;
    • proving they’ve been in the inspection business for at least three years;
    • abiding by the industry’s toughest Code of Ethics;
    • substantially following a Board-approved Standards of Practice;
    • submitting to a criminal background check; and
    • applying for Board certification by signing an affidavit in front of a Notary.
    The CMI is a designation Mr. Harris.

    A CMI accredited member and the government of Alberta went on step further. CCHI.
    AlbertaNACHI Chapter of the National Association of Certified Home Inspectors - CCHI Certification Program
    The lack of using Google or not knowing what information is factual limits one abilities.

    All the best Mr. Harris.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 09-12-2012 at 07:29 AM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

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    Default Re: FIRE DOOR CODE DATE?

    Please take the bickering about who is better off line. Please keep the replies on topic.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

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