Thread: Doors Latching

I run into this all of the time on both new and existing homes and am trying to document a requirement that seems elusive.

Exterior (or interior) door lockset or deadbolt bolts often do not enter the latch hole or strike plate sufficiently to remain closed if pressure is exerted against them. This is a security issue for exterior doors. I have contacted Schlage, Kwikset, Sargent and others to no avail. There seems to be a consensus among manufacturers that the figure I am seeking is 1 inch, but I would like to find this written somewhere so that I can refer builders, contractors, et al. to it.

I keep hoping for the clue fairy to visit me regarding this, but nothing yet. Does anyone have such a document they would like to share?

Similar Threads:

• Metal framed exterior glass sliding doors
• Exterior lighting at doors
• Tempered Glass at doors
• are glass doors required
• Doors for PEX Maniblocs

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

I keep hoping for the clue fairy to visit me regarding this, but nothing yet. Does anyone have such a document they would like to share?

Did you ask them to what standard they say their locks meet? Such as an ASTM standard or some other standard?

That standard would specify the depth of the latching bolt.

On impact doors, like are fond frequently here in Florida, I suspect that 1" is included in the product approval for the latching of the door to meet the wind loading and especially the impact resistance.

The listings for the doors need to either specify the specific hardware used to meet the test, or specify the hardware and any other hardware which meets such-and-such standard. I've seen those standards listed on product approvals, but do not recall what the standards were.

JP:

Thanks, that sent me in the right direction where I discovered:

ASTM F476-84
ANSI A156.2 and A156.13
ANSI/BHMA Standards
Door and Hardware Institute
Door Security and Safety Foundation

. . . still loading the wetware . . .

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

ASTM 476-84
ANSI A156.2 and A156.13
ANSI/BHMA Standards
Door and Hardware Institute
Door Security and Safety Foundation

. . . still loading the wetware . . .

Aaron,

That's not what you are looking for (see attached).

I've tried searching and all I come up with are standards for fire doors and other specialty doors, not regular residential entry doors.

I'm 99.7% sure that HUD requires a door that locks properly as a minumn requirement.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

That's not what you are looking for (see attached).

I've tried searching and all I come up with are standards for fire doors and other specialty doors, not regular residential entry doors.

That's the one I have, I just neglected to put the "F" in the number.

Aaron,

Have you tried the simple way yet?

Go down to one of the Big Box stores and look at the installation instructions on a lockset?

You know, where it says (probably says) 'drill hole at least 1 inch deep so the 1 inch length of the latch bolt can fully engage '.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

Have you tried the simple way yet?

Go down to one of the Big Box stores and look at the installation instructions on a lockset?

You know, where it says (probably says) 'drill hole at least 1 inch deep so the 1 inch length of the latch bolt can fully engage '.

JP: Well, of course, I went there first. Problem is there was nothing like that in the instructions for this particular lock. Besides, I run into this problem often on new homes and simply do not have the time or inclination to attempt to ascertain the exact brand and model number of each lockset, only to find that the Pakistani or Chinese author of the instructions did not bother to be precise.

Additionally, you are obviously inexperienced in dealing with the totally unethical, prevaricating, unregulated Texas builder. Pray that you remain that way.

Man, you guys way over-think things

Aaron said it himself: "Exterior (or interior) door lockset or deadbolt bolts often do not enter the latch hole or strike plate sufficiently to remain closed if pressure is exerted against them."

Or even better, simply report the condition: "Lockset/deadbolt failed and door opened when pressure applied."

Did you ask them to what standard they say their locks meet? Such as an ASTM standard or some other standard?

Isn't the basic standard "performing as intended"? Even if they do everything by the applicable book, things still fail for many reasons. Sure, in new construction it's someone's job to match each component submittal with the job specifications, but the OP referenced new and existing.

Anyway, carry on...

Isn't the basic standard "performing as intended"?

Texas builders do not have standards, other than their standard never-ending line of BS. Performance only enters into the picture if something happens to fall on the builder's head.

Well, I was thinking something as basic as a lock or latch is intended to "lock" or "latch". If it doesn't, it fails to perform as intended. But, hey, I'm not from Texas

But, hey, I'm not from Texas

Rejoice in that fact . . .

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I'm 99.7% sure that HUD requires a door that locks properly as a minumn requirement.

Scott, if you don't know just say you don't know!

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Scott, if you don't know just say you don't know!

Perhaps he's 99.7% sure that he's not sure...

I'm 99.7% sure that the cause of doors not latching properly is due to door installer error.

Originally Posted by Scott Bennett

I'm 99.7% sure that the cause of doors not latching properly is due to door installer error.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Scott Bennett

I'm 99.7% sure that the cause of doors not latching properly is due to door installer error.

Doors not latching can be due to many reasons. New construction wood doors (pre hung) due to their materials are very susceptible to warping. Even if a door is installed correctly and the lock set is installed correctly the door can warp and cause the lock set to become misaligned.

Exterior metal prehung doors are also susceptible to warping by virtue of their design The typical jam on either interior or exterior doors are wood and are also susceptible to warping or changing with the environment. Most new doors have a design that leaves a large gap between the door and the jam. If you look at older wooden doors the edge is actually beveled slightly allowing for a tighter fit, Newer manufactured doors are not beveled and need extra clearance as they close.

Laying off (99.7%) the misalignment of the lock sets on the installers is wrong. Doors can work fine for years and then get out of alignment

Not to say an installation can not be bad but not 99.7%.

I had a builder give me grief while I was explaining to my client about the deadbolt not fully engaging. The weatherstrip was not installed yet, so I went outside, told him to lock the deadbolt, and used my screwdriver to open the door. He just stood there with his mouth open.

I just keep it simple, "deadbolt does not fully engage, recess is not deep enough".

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,

You obviously do not know the STRICT rules and regulations that ALL Texas builders must pass before they can EVER enter the highly coveted occupation: Texas Builder.

I've copied/pasted the entire document so that you can read the rules.

Sec. 325.017-Licensing Requirement
A person(s) making application to become a fully licensed and regulated builder in the state of Texas must have the following:
1.) A small communications device that is carried on the belt or worn in the pocket.
2.) A full-sized pickup truck with a minimum 5.5' bed. Generally the bed should remain empty at all times; however, if the fully licensed and regulated builder also provides a service listed under the "General Requirements of the Texas Licensed and Regulated Subcontractor", he/she may include the necessary tools of their trade in the bed of the pickup.
Upon successfully procuring the above equipment, a person (s) may begin residential construction in the unincorporated areas of the East Texas region and after a period, not to exceed 2 weeks, the newly licensed individual may begin the construction of homes within the city limits of any East Texas city. Generally, it is expected that builders that meet these requirements will remain in the East Texas area; however, after 365 days, fully licensed and regulated builders may venture out into the rest of the state.

Originally Posted by JB Thompson

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,

You obviously do not know the STRICT rules and regulations that ALL Texas builders must pass before they can EVER enter the highly coveted occupation: Texas Builder.

I've copied/pasted the entire document so that you can read the rules.

Sec. 325.017-Licensing Requirement
A person(s) making application to become a fully licensed and regulated builder in the state of Texas must have the following:
1.) A small communications device that is carried on the belt or worn in the pocket.
2.) A full-sized pickup truck with a minimum 5.5' bed. Generally the bed should remain empty at all times; however, if the fully licensed and regulated builder also provides a service listed under the "General Requirements of the Texas Licensed and Regulated Subcontractor", he/she may include the necessary tools of their trade in the bed of the pickup.
Upon successfully procuring the above equipment, a person (s) may begin residential construction in the unincorporated areas of the East Texas region and after a period, not to exceed 2 weeks, the newly licensed individual may begin the construction of homes within the city limits of any East Texas city. Generally, it is expected that builders that meet these requirements will remain in the East Texas area; however, after 365 days, fully licensed and regulated builders may venture out into the rest of the state.

JB,

Simply excellent!!!!

I'm pretty sure much of the above could also be applied to many (I repeat MANY) home inspectors.

Originally Posted by JB Thompson

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,

You obviously do not know the STRICT rules and regulations that ALL Texas builders must pass before they can EVER enter the highly coveted occupation: Texas Builder.

I've copied/pasted the entire document so that you can read the rules.

Sec. 325.017-Licensing Requirement
A person(s) making application to become a fully licensed and regulated builder in the state of Texas must have the following:
1.) A small communications device that is carried on the belt or worn in the pocket.
2.) A full-sized pickup truck with a minimum 5.5' bed. Generally the bed should remain empty at all times; however, if the fully licensed and regulated builder also provides a service listed under the "General Requirements of the Texas Licensed and Regulated Subcontractor", he/she may include the necessary tools of their trade in the bed of the pickup.
Upon successfully procuring the above equipment, a person (s) may begin residential construction in the unincorporated areas of the East Texas region and after a period, not to exceed 2 weeks, the newly licensed individual may begin the construction of homes within the city limits of any East Texas city. Generally, it is expected that builders that meet these requirements will remain in the East Texas area; however, after 365 days, fully licensed and regulated builders may venture out into the rest of the state.

Similar rules here..........except, the pickup bed is piled high with tools that may or may not be in operating condition and in winter time, must have no less than six inches of snow on them to insulate them from our cold weather.
A separate rule for painters is that they must be able to fit all their sprayers and equipment in a 1979 Ford Pinto with ladders secured to the roof with used bailing cord.

I had an independent builder tell me a few years ago, that if I knew so damn much, I would be building something instead of a nobody piece of s**t home inspector making a living tearing down the doers in our society.

Does the standard or manufacturers instructions really matter if the door isn't latching properly. The standard is, it works or it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

Have you tried the simple way yet?

Go down to one of the Big Box stores and look at the installation instructions on a lockset?

You know, where it says (probably says) 'drill hole at least 1 inch deep so the 1 inch length of the latch bolt can fully engage '.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

JP: Well, of course, I went there first. Problem is there was nothing like that in the instructions for this particular lock. Besides, I run into this problem often on new homes and simply do not have the time or inclination to attempt to ascertain the exact brand and model number of each lockset, only to find that the Pakistani or Chinese author of the instructions did not bother to be precise.

Additionally, you are obviously inexperienced in dealing with the totally unethical, prevaricating, unregulated Texas builder. Pray that you remain that way.

Aaron,

I didn't follow up on this before because, well, because you said you did, but, when I did follow up on it tonight ... I found just what I thought you would find in the installation instructions: http://w3.securitytechnologies.com/I...on_P513174.PDF

"Mark drill points above and below horizontal centerline. Drill (2) overlapping 7⁄8" (22mm) holes, 1 1⁄8" (29mm) deep. Clean out holes for strike box. Place strike box in hole. Place strike over strike box and trace for cutout. Chisel 1⁄8" (6mm) deep for flush fit of reinforcer, strike box, and strike."

If the latch is not holding ... the hole was not drilled as deep as specified.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

I didn't follow up on this before because, well, because you said you did, but, when I did follow up on it tonight ... I found just what I thought you would find in the installation instructions: http://w3.securitytechnologies.com/I...on_P513174.PDF

"Mark drill points above and below horizontal centerline. Drill (2) overlapping 7⁄8" (22mm) holes, 1 1⁄8" (29mm) deep. Clean out holes for strike box. Place strike box in hole. Place strike over strike box and trace for cutout. Chisel 1⁄8" (6mm) deep for flush fit of reinforcer, strike box, and strike."

If the latch is not holding ... the hole was not drilled as deep as specified.

So how does one drill a hole 1-1/8" deep into a 3/4" thick jamb? With the rough opening space all you will be doing is fulling drilling out the jamb, you won't make it into the jack stud or very little if any.

If the deadbolt latch isn't holding, most likely the latch plate isn't aligned correctly and is barely catching the edge. If the strike plate box is in the hole it is surely drilled deep enough or it wouldn't fit.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

So how does one drill a hole 1-1/8" deep into a 3/4" thick jamb? With the rough opening space all you will be doing is fulling drilling out the jamb, you won't make it into the jack stud or very little if any.

If the deadbolt latch isn't holding, most likely the latch plate isn't aligned correctly and is barely catching the edge. If the strike plate box is in the hole it is surely drilled deep enough or it wouldn't fit.

If the bolt is not allowed to extend fully, the mechanisms I have seen will not reach the detent and will easily slide open. The deeper hole adds no strength when in thinner material but does add to security.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

If the bolt is not allowed to extend fully, the mechanisms I have seen will not reach the detent and will easily slide open. The deeper hole adds no strength when in thinner material but does add to security.

I agree Jim, but if the latch box is installed, which is as deep or deeper than the throw of the deadbolt, than the hole depth must be correct. Then the problem is in adjustment not depth.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I agree Jim, but if the latch box is installed, which is as deep or deeper than the throw of the deadbolt, than the hole depth must be correct. Then the problem is in adjustment not depth.

Rare that I see a box, only plates designed for and open hole in the wood. If you are lucky the screws might be long enough to reach the stud. But yeah if they get a full depth box installed, they must have drilled it deep enough and the OP would not have been questioning, right?

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Rare that I see a box, only plates designed for and open hole in the wood. If you are lucky the screws might be long enough to reach the stud. But yeah if they get a full depth box installed, they must have drilled it deep enough and the OP would not have been questioning, right?

Good point, well taken. Just saying I have seen problems where the latch plate is rubbing the edge of the latch, causing that same problem, not a complete throw of the latch.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Rare that I see a box, only plates designed for and open hole in the wood. If you are lucky the screws might be long enough to reach the stud. But yeah if they get a full depth box installed, they must have drilled it deep enough and the OP would not have been questioning, right?

Same here, I, too, rarely see the strike box.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Rare that I see a box, only plates designed for and open hole in the wood. If you are lucky the screws might be long enough to reach the stud. But yeah if they get a full depth box installed, they must have drilled it deep enough and the OP would not have been questioning, right?

I, too, rarely see a box. But from a practical point of view, I don't write up "no strike box". I have seen (so many times that it is a little uncomfortable) evidence of forced open doors without and with strike boxes. I haven't seen any evidence that they increase the security of the door.

Failing all other sources of information, it would be reasonable to expect that, if you measure the length of the exposed deadbolt or latchbolt, the opening behind the strike plate should be equal or slightly (1/8") deeper. My latchbolts extend 5/8" from the door.

PDQ specifies a 1" opening in the door jamb for the latchbolt.
GT Series Installation Instructions

I have never seen any other spec for a deadbolt or latchbolt door jamb opening.

I'm inclined to agree with the common sense, as opposed to technical posts. Warping, settling, expansion, contraction, shrinkage or two people arguing on opposite sides of a door can wreak havoc with the hardware alignment. Agree with the comments about General Contractor requirements and how flakey many can be. However, a skilled and knowledgable contractor is a beautiful thing. The best are the ones that look and sound like flakes, but are smart as a whip and do not waste words. The word I have learned from these guys for equipment not functioning, as designed is "broke". On occaision when they're all fired up with some coffee or just feelin chatty they might say "it's broke".

Originally Posted by Jimmy Roberts

PDQ specifies a 1" opening in the door jamb for the latchbolt.

I have never seen any other spec for a deadbolt or latchbolt door jamb opening.

I suspect that if one reads any of the installation instructions which comes with a door latch, especially an entrance lockset one, that the installation instructions will specify the depth of the hole.

The one I posted specified different depths for the latchbolt and for the deadbolt, and, surprising as it was, the latchbolt hole was specified as being deeper than the deadbolt hole.

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

The word I have learned from these guys for equipment not functioning, as designed is "broke". On occaision when they're all fired up with some coffee or just feelin chatty they might say "it's broke".

Garry,

I've always preferred "It don't work" over "It's broke" because, while it may not be "broke", it dang sure "don't work" .

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Garry,

I've always preferred "It don't work" over "It's broke" because, while it may not be "broke", it dang sure "don't work" .

If it ain't broke don't fix it.....

Originally Posted by Door Guy

If it ain't broke don't fix it.....

If it don't work ... FIX IT!

See the difference between "broke" and "work"?