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  1. #1
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    Default Door Between Garage and House

    Saw this exterior grade door with thermal pane glass as the door leading from the house to the garage. Is this OK or a bad idea and what are the chances of it being a fire rated door?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Saw this exterior grade door with thermal pane glass as the door leading from the house to the garage. Is this OK or a bad idea and what are the chances of it being a fire rated door?
    Not allowed

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I did some searching here and ran across an old thread that talked about this very thing. It sounds like it can be OK if the door bears a stamp saying it is firerated. http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...rage-door.html

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    NO it is not allowed.

    Jim Luttrall
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    R309.1 shall be....solid wood door....solid or honeycomb steel door....

    No glass allowed.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Thanks for the info guys. This house had a few things going on that made me question myself every once in while.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Everyone who says it is not allowed is jumping the gun - it IS "allowed".

    It IS "allowed" ... IF ... the door is a 20 minute rated door.

    Now, the chances of finding a 20 minute rated door with glass like that is minimal, but if you can find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that ... IT IS "allowed".

    I just doubt you will find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that - but I have not seen all the different kinds of doors, so there may be one out there ... and if there is - IT IS "allowed".

    Added with edit: If you found a door consisting of a single piece of glass (the door was all glass) - IF that door was 20 minute rated ... that full glass door would be allowed.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-15-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Everyone who says it is not allowed is jumping the gun - it IS "allowed".

    It IS "allowed" ... IF ... the door is a 20 minute rated door.

    Now, the chances of finding a 20 minute rated door with glass like that is minimal, but if you can find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that ... IT IS "allowed".

    I just doubt you will find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that - but I have not seen all the different kinds of doors, so there may be one out there ... and if there is - IT IS "allowed".

    Added with edit: If you found a door consisting of a single piece of glass (the door was all glass) - IF that door was 20 minute rated ... that full glass door would be allowed.
    I was looking at THE door in the photo. That is not allowed.
    Yes, somewhere in the abstract world of what ifs, it might be allowed but not with THAT door.

    Jim Luttrall
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I was looking at THE door in the photo. That is not allowed.
    That is exactly what I was pointing out ... that we were not there and IF THAT DOOR in the photo is labeled as a 20 minute door ... *IF* ... and that is a big if ... then IT IS "allowed".

    I am 99.995% sure that THAT DOOR is not rated, and thus would not be allowed, but that is why Nick posted the link to that other thread ... it "may" be allowed, we just can't say it is, or isn't, without *knowing* more information.

    If that door does not have a label on it stating that it is a 20 minute rated door, and I seriously doubt there is a label on it, but if it is labeled, then it would be allowed.

    It's just that we don't KNOW if it is labeled or not - at least *I* don't *know* that it is not labeled. Just saying - keep an open mind that if it is labeled, then it is allowed.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    It doesn't matter if that door is labeled or not. It's pretty easy to cut a door, yes even a steel door, and install a standard lite set, thus negating any labeled fire rating.

    I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but here in MN the door does not need to bear a 20 minute label, as long as it's at least 1 3/8 thick and solid core.

    The chances of any of us running into fire rated glass installed in the garage entry door is 0. You can't buy them at the box stores. Sure you could get a fire rated door lite, put it in, but it won't have a raise plastic mounting ring like the one pictured here.

    As others have said before, the door in the picture is not allowed.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    A company called Safti First makes doors with fire rated glass, however most of them appear to be for commercial applications.


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    If it doesn't have the fire rating sticker on it, write it up as "doesn't appear to be fire rated for use".


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but here in MN the door does not need to bear a 20 minute label, as long as it's at least 1 3/8 thick and solid core.
    Correct - if the door is at least 1-3/8" thick and solid wood (careful about the "core"), the the door does not need to be a 20 minute fire rated door.

    However, the discussion has turned to ... IF the door is 20 minute rated ... *IF* ... then it does not matter what the door is made of, or how thick the door is, or if there is or is not glass in the door - the door has (purportedly anyway) been tested and meets the requirements of a 20 minute rated door and thus can be ANYTHING ... okay, I seriously doubt one will find a 20 minute rated door which is paper, but you understand what I am saying (I hope you understand it) - IF the door is rated, it can be anything the manufacturer can get to pass the test.

    As others have said before, the door in the picture is not allowed.
    PROBABLY not allowed.

    Now, if there is a doggy door in the door, okay, that would be "not allowed" ... unless ... ... that door came from the factory with a 20 minute rated doggy door in the 2 minute rated door and it was labeled as such.

    I seem to be having a bit of a difficult time in opening some minds up to the possibility of what they might find with a 20 minute door rating.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post



    PROBABLY not allowed.


    I seem to be having a bit of a difficult time in opening some minds up to the possibility of what they might find with a 20 minute door rating.
    Correct, the door probably is not allowed and probably does not have a fire rating tag. However, even if that door does have a fire rated tag, that is not a fire rated lite. That is a plastic trimmed lite with no fire rating. You can see it in the picture. Therefore the entire assembly is not allowed.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Correct - if the door is at least 1-3/8" thick and solid wood (careful about the "core"), the the door does not need to be a 20 minute fire rated door.

    However, the discussion has turned to ... IF the door is 20 minute rated ... *IF* ... then it does not matter what the door is made of, or how thick the door is, or if there is or is not glass in the door - the door has (purportedly anyway) been tested and meets the requirements of a 20 minute rated door and thus can be ANYTHING ... okay, I seriously doubt one will find a 20 minute rated door which is paper, but you understand what I am saying (I hope you understand it) - IF the door is rated, it can be anything the manufacturer can get to pass the test.



    PROBABLY not allowed.

    Now, if there is a doggy door in the door, okay, that would be "not allowed" ... unless ... ... that door came from the factory with a 20 minute rated doggy door in the 2 minute rated door and it was labeled as such.

    I seem to be having a bit of a difficult time in opening some minds up to the possibility of what they might find with a 20 minute door rating.
    QUOTE]Yes, somewhere in the abstract world of what ifs, it might be allowed but not with THAT door.[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Correct - if the door is at least 1-3/8" thick and solid wood (careful about the "core"), the the door does not need to be a 20 minute fire rated door.

    However, the discussion has turned to ... IF the door is 20 minute rated ... *IF* ... then it does not matter what the door is made of, or how thick the door is, or if there is or is not glass in the door - the door has (purportedly anyway) been tested and meets the requirements of a 20 minute rated door and thus can be ANYTHING ... okay, I seriously doubt one will find a 20 minute rated door which is paper, but you understand what I am saying (I hope you understand it) - IF the door is rated, it can be anything the manufacturer can get to pass the test.



    PROBABLY not allowed.

    Now, if there is a doggy door in the door, okay, that would be "not allowed" ... unless ... ... that door came from the factory with a 20 minute rated doggy door in the 2 minute rated door and it was labeled as such.

    I seem to be having a bit of a difficult time in opening some minds up to the possibility of what they might find with a 20 minute door rating.
    20 minute rated doggie door nice!

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Not often, but every once in awhile, Jerry gets it right.

    I knew of the 20 minute fire door option, however I do not recall seeing one or even know if it is available for residential installations.
    I Googled "20 minute fire rated door with glass". They are available.
    The cost is only somewhat more than other exterior doors, but not all that much. They can even be ordered at the big box stores.

    Seems that fire rated doors with glass have
    1/4" thick tempered glass
    No plastic around the glass
    The door can be solid wood, MDF, or metal
    Some may or MAY NOT have a label
    Some may or MAY NOT have etching on the glass
    They can look like many other residential exterior door.

    Links to a few of the sites I found.
    Custom Fire Rated Wood Doors | Exterior and Interior Fire Doors

    Republic Doors: Fire Rated with Glass

    TruStile Technical Info | Fire Doors | Product Data Sheets

    Fire Rated Glass: SAFTI FIRST Fire Rated Glass and Framing

    I did not find one with a "Doggy door".

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Some may or MAY NOT have a label
    The one(s) which said they may not be labeled, was that referring to the door not being labeled as a 20 minute door or the glass not being labeled?

    If the door is not labeled, then it is not a "20 minute rated door", it would be "manufactured the same as a 20" rated door" but it would be an 'un rated door'.

    I did not find one with a "Doggy door".
    I don't know if anyone makes one, or if they are available, but if they are available ... then you know what I mean.

    It's like raised panel doors that so many builders and people install because they look better than a flt slab door - the recesses around the panels only leaves about 1/2" on 1-3/4" doors and only about 1/4" on 1-3/8" doors, thus those door are not allows as they are not 1-3/8" thick minimum. I have had builders and contractor with those doors replace those doors unless they can document that the doors are 20 minute fire rated.

    One one house the painter had not painted the top of the doors (are the doors are required to be) and there was a stamp on the tops of those doors which stated 'Rated' and '20'. I had the contractor contact the manufacturer of the doors for documentation on whether those doors were 20 minute rated doors or not, and to find out what those stamps meant.

    The manufacturer stated that those stamps meant the door was manufactured on the same assembly line which made 20 minute rated doors, but that those doors were not sold as 20 minute rated doors (rated doors cost more) and thus were not labeled and thus not rated. Then they said that the contractor could 'buy' the rating for those doors (i.e., pay more for the labels) and that those doors would be "20 minute rated" door by virtue of being labeled as those doors were in fact manufactured identically to the 20 minute rated doors and that is why the tops of the doors are stamped that way - to let the factory know that the doors were made as 20 minute rated doors and all that was needed was the label ... without that factory stamp on top of the doors, the doors would have to be replaced as the factory would not know if the doors were 'unrated rated doors' or not.

    The builder 'bought' the rating, the labels were shipped to him and he installed the labels. Without that letter from the manufacturer, he would have had to replace those doors with rated doors, doors which would not have been any different than the doors he already installed - except for the labeling.

    After thanking his painter for not painting the tops of the doors (that saved his butt (these were single and double doors, 3 sets of doubles and 1 single) he then chewed his painter out for not painting the tops and bottoms of those doors and of all the other doors in the house.

    Many doors will have a stamp on the top which states that the warranty is void if all six surfaces of the door are not painted (top of top rail, bottom of bottom rail, hinge stile, latch stile, and the two door door skin surfaces).

    I have seen doors coming apart and, because the top and bottom was not painted, the manufacturer disclaimed responsibility for the failure - the builder had to pay for the doors themselves. Whether or not they got that money back from the painter was not my problem.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Check out line 8

    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    add to the mix

    can 1 3/8" decorative panel doors be considered proper thickness or solid core?

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by BARRY ADAIR View Post
    add to the mix

    how can 1 3/8" decorative panel doors be considered proper thickness or solid core?
    They can be considered solid core, they cannot be considered proper thickness, but ... that infamous "but" ... but if the door is 20 minute rated then it does not need to be solid core or 1-3/8" thick.

    By the way, the code does not say solid "core", the code says solid "wood", and a solid "core" door is not solid "wood". You may be thinking that is a technicality in the term, but there is a difference between a "solid wood" door and a "wood door with a solid core".

    Now, a steel door is allowed to be solid "something" inside (code does not specify what material the solid part must be made of) or honeycomb-core (code does not specify what material, so the cardboard honeycomb-core is acceptable inside a steel door).

    - R302.5.1 Opening protection.
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    After the San Diego County building inspector told me we could not have a window in the fire door between the garage and house, I found a code reference that said if you have fire sprinklers in the garage, a fire door is not required. We have sprinklers in the garage (as well as the house). I'm still not clear on this. For light purposes, I would like to have a window in the door.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Good info. here and knowledge gleaned by yours truly. From a report perspective wouldn't " unable to verify fire safety compliance of garage personnel door" git-r-done ?


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni Harter View Post
    After the San Diego County building inspector told me we could not have a window in the fire door between the garage and house, I found a code reference that said if you have fire sprinklers in the garage, a fire door is not required. We have sprinklers in the garage (as well as the house). I'm still not clear on this. For light purposes, I would like to have a window in the door.
    I'm not following you with that exception - I copied this from the California Codes online, and the San Diego code page referred to the California code page:
    - R302.6 Dwelling/garage and/or carport fire separation. The garage and/or carport shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall. A separation is not required between the dwelling unit and a carport, provided the carport is entirely open on two or more sides and there are not enclosed areas above.
    - TABLE R302.6 DWELLING/GARAGE AND/OR CARPORT SEPARATION
    - - SEPARATION
    - - - a) From the residence and attics
    - - - b) From all habitable rooms above the garage or carport
    - - - c) Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section
    - - - d) Garages located less than 3 feet from a dwelling unit on the same lot
    - - MATERIAL
    - - - a) Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side
    - - - b) Not less than 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent
    - - - c) Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent
    - - - d) Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area

    I could not copy and paste the table, so I used a), b), c), d) for the different columns, match up the two a)'s, b)'s, etc.

    I did not see anything about sprinklers in there: Chapter 3 - Building Planning

    Those inspectors in California - did you notice that California specifically INCLUDES "AND/OR CARPORT" in that separation?

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni Harter
    After the San Diego County building inspector told me we could not have a window in the fire door between the garage and house, I found a code reference that said if you have fire sprinklers in the garage, a fire door is not required. We have sprinklers in the garage (as well as the house). I'm still not clear on this. For light purposes, I would like to have a window in the door.
    A "window" is suggestive of an opening implied to be operable (openable), providing both light and ventillation; glazing is not so implied. A fixed "lite" may be incorpated into a separation door, which may further be a pre-hung "fire-rated 20-minute" assembly. I don't recall at the moment the status of wired glass in Calif.

    You may further have more restrictions locally, example "security" requirements in San Diego County (ordinance) regarding securing the residence from entry from the garage (intruder hidden from view) which may prohibit breakable glazing of any type (fire door or not) side-light or in the door panel itself, between the garage and the residence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'm not following you with that exception - I copied this from the California Codes online, and the San Diego code page referred to the California code page:
    - R302.6 Dwelling/garage and/or carport fire separation. The garage and/or carport shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall. A separation is not required between the dwelling unit and a carport, provided the carport is entirely open on two or more sides and there are not enclosed areas above.

    <SNIP>

    I did not see anything about sprinklers in there: Chapter 3 - Building Planning

    Those inspectors in California - did you notice that California specifically INCLUDES "AND/OR CARPORT" in that separation?
    "I did not see anything about sprinklers in there," Jerry Peck said.
    J.P.: Did you look at California's R302.5 (specifically at R302.5.1 Exception)?

    California continues to require self-closing, self-latching doors between garage (or carport) and dwelling unit, even with their recent adoption of the "IRC" with California Ammendments.

    Its (the Exception he's referring to, and reference to sprinklers) in the applicable subsection, R302.5.1 of California's Ammended version:

    R302.5 Dwelling/garage opening/penetration protection. Openings and penetrations through the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be in accordance with Sections R302.5.1 through R302.5.3.

    R302.5.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching.


    Exception: Where the residence and the private garage are protected by an automatic residential fire sprinkler system in accordance with Sections R309.6 and R313, other door openings between the private garage and the residence need only be self-closing and self-latching. This exception shall not apply to rooms used for sleeping purposes.
    However, since most (if not all) of unincorporated S.D. County is subject to wildfires, R327 in addition to safety glazing requirements (lites in doors, etc.) would likely apply. More importantly, one's Hazard insurance/imdemnity also can dictate requirements. Not sure the questioner (Toni Harter) has established a detached single-family home with post, and NO OTHER use (day care, etc.) but cearly "Windows" (in the "usual sense" - openings of their own kind, usually operable) are not allowed to be "added" to a "Fire(-rated) Door" in the field. There ARE numerous 20-minute "fire-rated" door assemblies which contain glazing (in the door panel and/or side-lites) and still maintain their "fire-rating"; not necessarily, however approved or accepted for "residential" 1-2 family construction prescriptions. Door Lites or may or may not be allowed in S.D. County - it depends on the local ordinances which may prohibit otherwise (security), the wild fire risk of the area, AND if the assembly has the correct ratings and design standards. S.D. County (California) has the resources for the best answer to the question - contact them. Toni Harter, you made reference to a "fire door", "fire-rated doors" may not be field modified beyond their listing, manufacturer's instructions, standards, and be considered to maintain their "rating".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-20-2012 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    County of San Diego, Dept. of Planning, DPLU #658 (REV 3/1//2011):
    Page 6 of 13 County of San Diego: Planning & Development Services:
    "4. Dwelling and garages shall be separated....
    Self-closing and self-latching doors complying with one of the following:
    Min 1 3/8 thick solid wood
    Min 1 3/8 think sold or honeycomb core steel
    20 minute fire rating
    EXCEPTION: Rated door not required where garage and dwelling both sprinklered

    That was my source. I'm going to the Plan Dept. and confirm before putting in a door with a window in any case.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    NOT a window - a clear glass glazed hole! We are building a SFR - 3 story, split level with garage on 1st floor. Garage opens into utility room - not sleeping quarters (we had to move a wall on our plans to be sure it couldn't be used for sleeping). Insurance is OK and we are in a fire zone. The entire house, including garage and storage rooms, is sprinklered because it was required. Of course, I could do what everyone else does - put in a fire rated door and then replace it if we ever get final approval but I want to do the right thing. CCRs prohibit any business, including day care.


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    "I did not see anything about sprinklers in there," Jerry Peck said.
    J.P.: Did you look at California's R302.5 (specifically at R302.5.1 Exception)?
    I did, but - obviously - I did not look at it well enough or I got side tracked and then forgot about it, either way, my error.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I have seen several houses built in the 80's where I am have glass in doors leading to a attached garage. But then anyone could build a house then, all was needed was a business license and you were a contractor, and the local building inspector did not know what a building code was.

    When bought my house, built 1987, it had a window in the door to the attached garage but I replaced it with a solid metal fire door, although we do not park cars in the garage anymore, no room :-)

    Even if allowed, beside the fire issues are security, many houses are broken into from the garage, that would be an easy way in for a thief. so just another reason not to have them.

    I think people thought would be nice to be able to see into the garage, last thing my wife wants is to see another mess, btw, which I am supposed to be cleaning, and not be on the computer :-(


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    The door position as pictured and described in the original post by the original poster is wrong (backwards as to direction of door swing, reversing pre-hung door would still be wrong as to swing side relation to stair & landing).

    The personel door FROM the attached garage is a form of egress, i.e. the emergency exit path FROM the garage (NOT an exit FROM the HOME). The door swing must be FROM the garage opening into the exit path into the home. The separation between attached garage and home is to protect the HOME from fire in the garage. The exposed hinge (burgle proof or not) and the weather stripping, door stop, etc. are on the WRONG side of the door assembly for the separation wall.

    The IRC refers to the IFC as does the IPMC in this regard. The IRC contains simplistic prescriptions FROM the IBC. The terms such as Means Of Egress, etc. are DEFINED in the IBC and the IFC, "Means of Egress" and the componants thereof are not defined in the IRC - the IRC merely contains minimum prescriptions in that regard (as it does regarding separations in its "fire resistant construction" ares, etc.).

    The pictured door as installed and described is NOT compliant for the occupancy separation nor the means of egress system required (for the attached GARAGE, NOT the DWELLING UNIT!) nor for the requirements of the fire resistant construction and openings thereof required in chapter 3.

    Regarding California, a state which always requires self-closing, regardless; it obviously is further wrong -- even if sprinklers were present in both the garage and dwelling.


  31. #31

    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Guessing the plastic trim that holds the glass panel wouldn't last 3 minutes in a fire... it melts and the glass falls. 99.9999999% sure it isn't fire rated.

    Just a hunch.


    Andrew Constantine
    Charlotte NC Home Inspections
    CharlotteHomeInspectorTips.com



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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    As long as the glass is fire-rated and it has a auto-closer it should be fine. I guess depends on the local code of that area.

    Rob Bowman
    Bowman Inspections
    740-339-7325

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Everyone who says it is not allowed is jumping the gun - it IS "allowed".

    It IS "allowed" ... IF ... the door is a 20 minute rated door.

    Now, the chances of finding a 20 minute rated door with glass like that is minimal, but if you can find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that ... IT IS "allowed".

    I just doubt you will find a 20 minute rated door with glass like that - but I have not seen all the different kinds of doors, so there may be one out there ... and if there is - IT IS "allowed".

    Added with edit: If you found a door consisting of a single piece of glass (the door was all glass) - IF that door was 20 minute rated ... that full glass door would be allowed.
    you bet Jerry...my brother and I owned a construction company and installed many a door in approved openings similar to this...

    The MAZZA INSPECTION GROUP
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The door position as pictured and described in the original post by the original poster is wrong (backwards as to direction of door swing, reversing pre-hung door would still be wrong as to swing side relation to stair & landing).

    The personel door FROM the attached garage is a form of egress, i.e. the emergency exit path FROM the garage (NOT an exit FROM the HOME). The door swing must be FROM the garage opening into the exit path into the home. The separation between attached garage and home is to protect the HOME from fire in the garage. The exposed hinge (burgle proof or not) and the weather stripping, door stop, etc. are on the WRONG side of the door assembly for the separation wall.

    The IRC refers to the IFC as does the IPMC in this regard. The IRC contains simplistic prescriptions FROM the IBC. The terms such as Means Of Egress, etc. are DEFINED in the IBC and the IFC, "Means of Egress" and the componants thereof are not defined in the IRC - the IRC merely contains minimum prescriptions in that regard (as it does regarding separations in its "fire resistant construction" ares, etc.).

    The pictured door as installed and described is NOT compliant for the occupancy separation nor the means of egress system required (for the attached GARAGE, NOT the DWELLING UNIT!) nor for the requirements of the fire resistant construction and openings thereof required in chapter 3.

    Regarding California, a state which always requires self-closing, regardless; it obviously is further wrong -- even if sprinklers were present in both the garage and dwelling.


    You assume there is no other egress from the garage that may open out.


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    You assume there is no other egress from the garage that may open out.
    David,

    Does not matter whether there is, or is not, another egress door from the garage, Watson is thinking (stating) that the door from the house to the garage does not meet the requirements for egress doors - what Watson is not understanding, though, is that there *is no egress allowed* through the garage from the dwelling unit.

    That is not saying that one cannot leave the house and pass through the garage to the outdoors, heck, that is done many times a day, every day, what that is stating is that the garage *is not allowed* to be used as an egress path, thus the door from the dwelling to the garage is not allowed to be considered as an egress door, which means that door does not need to meet the requirements of an egress door.

    The above stated, though, there was a code posted from somewhere which actually stated that, in that area, the garage *could* be used as a required means of egress, and in that area only that door *could* be required to meet the secondary means of egress - but would not have to meet those requirements if (this is where what you said comes in) ... if there is another egress door from the dwelling, then the door to the garage does not need to meet those requirements.

    I seem to recall that that "area" which allowed egress through the garage may have been "California" ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    David,

    Does not matter whether there is, or is not, another egress door from the garage, Watson is thinking (stating) that the door from the house to the garage does not meet the requirements for egress doors - what Watson is not understanding, though, is that there *is no egress allowed* through the garage from the dwelling unit.

    That is not saying that one cannot leave the house and pass through the garage to the outdoors, heck, that is done many times a day, every day, what that is stating is that the garage *is not allowed* to be used as an egress path, thus the door from the dwelling to the garage is not allowed to be considered as an egress door, which means that door does not need to meet the requirements of an egress door.

    The above stated, though, there was a code posted from somewhere which actually stated that, in that area, the garage *could* be used as a required means of egress, and in that area only that door *could* be required to meet the secondary means of egress - but would not have to meet those requirements if (this is where what you said comes in) ... if there is another egress door from the dwelling, then the door to the garage does not need to meet those requirements.

    I seem to recall that that "area" which allowed egress through the garage may have been "California" ...
    NO PECK, THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING or THINKING, NOR WHAT THE CODE IN CALIFORNIA SAYS ON THE SUBJECT.

    THAT IS YOUR OWN MALFUNCTION.

    The Garage whether attached or not is a different occupancy categorization in California, ALWAYS. I was addressing Ms. Harter.

    THE MEANS OF EGRESS FROM THE GARAGE OCCUPANCY, NOT the residence. TO ESCAPE THE GARAGE OCCUPANCY IF ONE IS IN THE GARAGE AND HAS A NEED TO EXIT THE GARAGE ONE MAY TRAVEL THROUGH THE HOME TO AN EXIT.

    THE (or in the case of multiple, "AN") EXIT PATH FROM THE GARAGE MAY BE THROUGH THE HOME.

    YOU GET HUNG UP ON THIS EVERY TIME. THAT IS WHY THE DOOR MUST SWING IN THE DIRECTION OF EXIT - IN THIS CASE INTO THE HOME, and the force required to operate must be within the REQUIRED PARAMETERS.

    The GARAGE OCCUPANCY (U) REQUIRES A MEANS OF EGRESS. ALL EXIT DOORS without a storm type door must swing OUT FROM THE GARAGE.

    Additionally the door must stop in that same manner when communicating with the adjacent occupancy and/or within the prescription lot-line clearances, etc. in the prescribed FIRE RESISTANT CONSTRUCTION requirements IN CALIFORNIA, IN THE FIRE AREAS, SO DESCRIBED BY Toni Harter, in San Diego County.


    The O/H GARAGE DOOR DOESN'T QUALIFY as an EXIT or MEANS OF EGRESS FROM THE GARAGE.

    YOU are the ONLY (repeated error/glitch on your part) ONE WHO "thinks" I've EVER said in this or other discussions - the DOOR communicating with a garage is a means of egress or exit FROM THE LIVING AREA - IT IS NOT.

    The unammended IRC language you refer to HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT AT HAND. NO ONE BUT YOU THINKS A DOOR BETWEEN AN ATTACHED GARAGE AND A HOME SERVES AS AN EGRESS FROM THE LIVING SPACE.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The door position as pictured and described in the original post by the original poster is wrong (backwards as to direction of door swing, reversing pre-hung door would still be wrong as to swing side relation to stair & landing).

    The personel door FROM the attached garage is a form of egress, i.e. the emergency exit path FROM the garage (NOT an exit FROM the HOME). The door swing must be FROM the garage opening into the exit path into the home. The separation between attached garage and home is to protect the HOME from fire in the garage. The exposed hinge (burgle proof or not) and the weather stripping, door stop, etc. are on the WRONG side of the door assembly for the separation wall.

    The IRC refers to the IFC as does the IPMC in this regard. The IRC contains simplistic prescriptions FROM the IBC. The terms such as Means Of Egress, etc. are DEFINED in the IBC and the IFC, "Means of Egress" and the componants thereof are not defined in the IRC - the IRC merely contains minimum prescriptions in that regard (as it does regarding separations in its "fire resistant construction" ares, etc.).

    The pictured door as installed and described is NOT compliant for the occupancy separation nor the means of egress system required (for the attached GARAGE, NOT the DWELLING UNIT!) nor for the requirements of the fire resistant construction and openings thereof required in chapter 3.

    Regarding California, a state which always requires self-closing, regardless; it obviously is further wrong -- even if sprinklers were present in both the garage and dwelling.
    Distinctly different. Obviously JERRY PECK can't distinguish the DISTINCTIONS WITH A DIFFERENCE in the use of prepositions and the DIRECTIONAL relationships which apply. (and his dellusions that a means of egress system only applies to the living space or habital space of a residence) even accessory buildings often require same - including detached garages).

    The Utility occupancy requires ITS OWN means of egress and has ITS OWN EXIT REQUIREMENTS that has NOTHING TO DO WITH the prohibition of utilizing a garage space as an exit or means of egress FROM THE LIVING SPACE of the RESIDENCE.

    IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE MEANS OF EGRESS, EXIT FOR/FROM THE UTILITY/GARAGE OCCUPANCY.

    (FOR THE PERSON TO ESCAPE FROM THE GARAGE SPACE ITSELF). THE DOOR PICTURED is NOT "FOR ENTERING THE GARAGE", IT IS FOR LEAVING THE GARAGE. The automatic closer california requires is for keeping the door closed, and for assuring the door closes AFTER a person ESCAPES THE GARAGE (via the home). ALL SUCH DOORS FROM THE GARAGE without storm door exceptions, etc.; must open in the path of travel TO LEAVE/ESCAPE the GARAGE, which is a "U" occupancy (in California).


    THIS BECOMES A MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE WHEN OCCUPIED (not habital) SPACE FURTHER ADSSOCIATED WITH THE LIVING UNIT (such as mechanicals - i.e. Water heater, furnace, electrical panels, laundry areas, etc.) as are common in same - as present in the attached garage occupancy. The means of egress is FOR THE GARAGE and may be via the residence, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.


    The reminder is his confusion between a Carport and a Garage, and is entirely inaccurate as well.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-02-2013 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    IF WATSON IS THROUGH POUNDING HIS CHEST ... (sorry guys, I shouldn't have resorted to Watson obnoxious posting methods) ... If Watson is through pounding his chest about what he knows not, the rest of us can address that door between the dwelling unit and the garage.

    That door is neither an egress door from the dwelling nor is it an egress door from the garage (a egress door takes one to the outdoors, not to another part of the structure), and a garage does not require a secondary means of egress, just like a utility room does not require a second means of egress, just like a storage shed does not require a second means of egress.

    That door between the dwelling unit and the garage is a door of and for convenience, and it is required to meet the same requirements as any other exterior door (it separates the thermal envelope of the house from the garage) and it is required to meet certain separation requirements, such as being a solid wood door minimum of 1-3/8" thick, or a steel foam core door, or a 20-minute rated door, etc.; however, that door is not an egress door for either the dwelling unit or the garage.

    Watson will likely come back on and huff and puff some more, beating and pounding his chest in his typical belligerent manner, thinking that makes him right - it might make him think he is right (Watson ALWAYS thinks he is right, so nothing changes there anyway), even when he is not right, or even close to being right.

    Watson, go ahead and do your foolish stuff some more - it does not make you right or even close to right. (sigh)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Means of egress is not a single element. The garage occupancy requires a means of egress.Peck, you (again, despite having been told repeatedly by our host) have opted to speak for ME regarding what I posted specific to Ms. Harter in California. You then spouted off about what you know absolutely nothing, yet again.Your confusion regarding simple prepositional words and your continuous spewing of incorrect information on this specific subject is simply a historical fact on the instant and former (archieved) forum site.Means of egress are prescribed, but not defined in the IRC, it and its elements (terms defined regarding elements) are further defined and prescribed in the IFC and IBC, which are envoked in and by the IRC. California continues to have requirements which are NOT found in the unammended IRC.


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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Means of egress is not a single element.
    You are correct in that statement.

    The garage occupancy requires a means of egress.
    Not other than the vehicle door, remember, this is a private garage for a dwelling unit.

    Peck, you (again, despite having been told repeatedly by our host) have opted to speak for ME regarding what I posted specific to Ms. Harter in California.
    Watson, you lost your train of thought again, what have I been "told repeatedly" by Brian? You know because you received those messages? What did they say about what?

    Means of egress are prescribed, but not defined in the IRC, it and its elements (terms defined regarding elements) are further defined and prescribed in the IFC and IBC, which are envoked in and by the IRC.
    "Evoked" when applicable ... apparently you do not know or understand when those other requirements are ... and more importantly ... are NOT "evoked".

    You continue to be in the habit of thinking you are always correct - even after others repeatedly show you where you are incorrect, as in this instance ... repeatedly so in this instance.

    The archives you refer to show all who read them that you are, more than anything else, a blowhard who thinks you know all, and denies being wrong when repeatedly shown that you are wrong.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  41. #41
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Just a friendly architect type looking to fan the flames of the original discussion a bit...

    *throws gasoline on the fire*

    http://www.trustile.com/docs/datashe...door_sheet.pdf

    :-P

    *runs away*


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I see less than 1 in 200 doors between garages and home interior that have a 20-minute fire rating label. The builders are and have been using steel clad molded 6-panel doors and no one is using self-closing hinges. I'll have to check the Virginia SUBC to see if they took the hinge requirement out of the IRC. We are still under 2009.
    I describe the door in the report and add a statement that it is not labeled as a 20-minute fire rated door.

    I will have to look into this further. Boy, could I tick off a bunch of builders!

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    I see less than 1 in 200 doors between garages and home interior that have a 20-minute fire rating label.
    There is no requirement for a 20 minute rated door, that is just one option.

    The builders are and have been using steel clad molded 6-panel doors ...
    Those are not acceptable as they are not 1-3/8" thick minimum ... unless they are 20 minute rated, in which case the thickness is no longer a condition - the 20 minute rating label covers that.

    ... and no one is using self-closing hinges. I'll have to check the Virginia SUBC to see if they took the hinge requirement out of the IRC. We are still under 2009.
    The self-closing hinges did not come into the IRC until the 2012 IRC, that requirement is not in the 2009 IRC.

    I posted the above just to clarify what is required, not that you had indicated otherwise.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I thought the self-closing hinge requirement was taken out.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I thought the self-closing hinge requirement was taken out.
    Was never in the IRC, came into the IRC with the 2012 edition.

    Some places had the self-closing and latching, but those requirements never made it through the minimalist committees putting together the ICC codes. Note that the 2012 IRC only requires "self-closing device" and does not mention, therefore does not require, 'self-latching' of the door.

    (bold and underlining are mine)
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection.
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

    Note that the IRC does, for swimming pools, specifically require "shall be self-closing and have a self-latching device", so there is a recognized difference in the IRC between the two requirements.

    On the other hand, some may consider that a door is not "closed" unless and until 'the latch catches'; however, one must then consider whether or not the door between the house and the garage is required to have a "latch", and that is not specifically required for that door, thus that door can be "closed" without being latched.

    However, one may then consider that the door does not meet the requirements for the thermal envelope if the door does not "latch" closed.

    Just some food for thought.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Self closing hs been required in California since the early 70s and continues to be, even if sprinklered.

    For Ms. Harter, The OH door may only serve for pedestrian traffic if approved for egress and there is no other pedestrian door. IF there is any pedestrian door present, it must either open TO means of egress OR be an exit door itself.

    CALIFORNIA Title 24, Part 2.5:

    R302.5.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching.



    And San Diego County Further Ammends on the issues:

    OCCUPANCY. The purpose for which a building or portion thereof is utilized or occupied.


    201.5 Parts. Whenever the words "dwelling unit," "dwelling," "premises," "building," "rooming house," "rooming unit," "housekeeping unit" or "story" are stated in this code, they shall be construed as though they were followed by the words "or any part thereof."


    San Diego) COUNTY BUILDING CODE
    Title 9, Chapter 2

    SEC. 92.2.R311.1 MEANS OF EGRESS
    Sec. R311.1 of the California Residential Code is revised to read:

    Sec. R311.1 Means of egress. All dwellings and accessory structures shall be provided with a means of egress comprisiing a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel complying with Section R311 from all portions of the dwelling or accessory structure to the exterior. The means of egress FROM ANY PORTION OF A DWELLING shall not require travel THROUGH a garage.

    The definition of a DWELLING includes the entire structure, not just "living space" and includes attached U occupancies, as well as STORAGE AREAS, attics, habital attics, mechnical rooms, etc and in the case (as is the case with Ms. Harter) of an urban/wildfire area, includes adjacent structures which are less than 20 feet away from the dwelling.


    (San Diego) County Residential Code:

    Sec. 92.2R311.2 DOORS
    Sec. R311.2 of the California Residentil Code is revised to read:



    Sec. R311.2 Doors. Doors serving occupiable spaces within dwelling units and accessory structures shall meet ALL of the following criteria:

    1. Side-hinged swinging;
    Exceptions:
    1. Horizontal sliding doors are llowed for exterior doors not required for egress and interior doors.
    2. Private garages my use overhed vehicle doors as the only exit.
    2. Minimum clear width of 32 inches when mesured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees;

    Exception: The minimum width requirement shall not apply to exterior doors not required for egress and interior doors
    3. Mimimum clear height of 78 inches when measured between the top of the threshold nd the bottom of the stop;p nd

    4. Readily openable without the use of key or special knowledge or effort.


    Additionally, San Diego has ammended California's R327.

    See:

    Sec. 92.2.R327. MATERIALS AND CONSTRUCTION METHODS FOR EXTERIOR WILDFIRE EXPOSURE

    Sec. R327 of the California Residentil Code is revised to read:

    Sec. R327 Materials and construction methods for exterior wildfire exposure.

    The materials and construction methods for exterior wildfire exposure in a wildland-urban interface fire area shall be as provided in Chpter 7A of the County Building Code (Sec. 97).

    Additionally several of the individual fire protection districts have additional restrictions. Many use the county fire marshall for plan approval.

    Your garage and home are to be sprinklered. That being the case, you likely do NOT have to have a 20 minute door to accomodate glazing, but you MAY still require it - it depends. S.D. has provisions for double-glazed thermal tempered in standard exterior door when garage and home are sprinklered, except certain homes in certain areas and the overall fire load calculated. Your fire protection district within San Diego County - look up in county code under 9, chapter 7A.


    As to the OP, the stair, guard, landing & door are means of egress FROM the garage occupancy. R311 applies!!! Door swing is wrong, stop is on the wrong side of the separation. The attached garage is a part of the building, and is a portion of "the dwelling", it is occupied space, it is a part of the building (look up dwelling as opposed to dwelling unit, look up building, look up occupied space, look up living space) and requires means of egress as a pedestrian door is present. The code does NOT address the convenience access of the garage from the home when a door opening is present in the separation wall, ONLY the required means of egress when a door is present, and the maintaining of the prescribed separation.

    The travel is FROM the garage, not through the garage, one travels THROUGH THE HOME to an EGRESS DOOR or alternative exit door. Means of Egress are required FROM bedrooms, from living rooms, from dining rooms, from even KITCHENS, FROM LAUNDRY ROOMS, FROM storage ares, FROM habital attics, and from ALL portions of the dwelling as well as from accessory structures. If there is a DOOR opening in the separation wall IT MUST be provided with means of egress.

    The continuous and unobstructed PATH begins at the opposite side of that door and must be unobstructed to the actual REQUIRED EGRESS DOOR - JUST as the path begins on the opposite side of a bedroom door, i.e. from the door opening....TO the required EGRESS DOOR and OUT to the street, court, etc.

    Means of egress is NOT emergancy escape and rescue opening. When such a door IS IN the separation wall, that DOOR is a...part of...the DWELLING! California goes further, and San Diego County (Ms. Harter hails from) goes even further regarding the requirements.

    R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

    R102.1 General. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable. Where, in any specific case, different sections of this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other requirements, the most restrictive shall govern.



    SECTION R311 MEANS OF EGRESS

    R311.1 Means of egress.
    All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.
    <B>
    (That includes a continuous and unobstructed path of egress travel FROM the DOOR OPENING in that separation wall of the dwelling - i.e. that door FROM the garage)

    R311 MEANS OF EGRESS
    R311.7.5 Landings for stairways. </B>There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings. The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
    Imagine that...the unamended IRC addresses Means of Egress FROM an enclosed (not necessarily attached) GARAGE.

    Peck can go bust himself out. As I addressed Ms. Harter in San Diego County, California - was totally correct. None of Peck's Peckisms nor logic faults are applicable.

    The code itself is quite clear, even when Peck can't find it in a single sentance - or when he cannot remember the distinctions WITH A DIFFERENCE regarding the use of TERMS which often include word phrases as they are incorporated into "the code", even unammended. The codification construction means something. As does the IRC's incorporation and invocation of the IFC. The IRC does NOT define Means of Egress, nor its componants; it defers to the IFC.
    Of course, its not new construction....The IRC refers and defers to the Internationl Fire Code - try reading it. Also..Internationl Property Maintennce Code...:

    SECTION 702 MEANS OF EGRESS

    General. A safe, continuous and unobstructed path of travel shall be provided from any point in a building or structure to the public way. Means of egress shall comply with the International Fire Code.



  47. #47

    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Unless glass and "plastic" frame that holds the glass in place are fire rated (not) then I'd say no way.

    Andrew Constantine
    http://InspectProHomeInspections.com
    Charlotte Home Inspections


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Self closing hs been required in California since the early 70s and continues to be, even if sprinklered.
    As I said earlier ... California is that area (which I referred to).

    Watson must be killing himself for showing that I was correct.

    R311 MEANS OF EGRESS
    R311.7.5 Landings for stairways. </B>There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings. The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
    Imagine that...the unamended IRC addresses Means of Egress FROM an enclosed (not necessarily attached) GARAGE.
    Addresses ... but does not require ... (sigh) Watson, you are killing yourself by straying so far off to try to prove yourself correct while ending up proving yourself incorrect for what you actually said.

    The door between the house is not a required egress door from the garage. That code section is stating that, for the STAIRS (one step is a stair) between the garage and the house, that a landing is not required at the top of the STAIR provided the door does not swing out over the stair.

    Watson, you were better off before you dug the hole you are in even deeper.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    When and IF any personel door is present in an enclosed garage in San Diego County, California, (or any utility or accessory occupancy - even if detached, greater than 120 sq. ft.) it must either open to the exterior (exit door, or egress door), OR it MUST open to a Means of Egress, through an occupancy OTHER than that of a GARAGE type (may be other utility occupancy, dwelling itself, or other accessory occupancy). A door other than an accepted (approved) garage door itself may not be required to be present, but IF present, it must provide means of egress if not itself an exit door.

    That's the law of the land for Ms. Harter (in San Diego County, California) whether Jerry Peck likes it or not.

    The unamended IRC, the IFC, and the IPMC (maintaining the property) requires that WHEN there is a pedestrian door present, it must provide egress, and do so without that egress path FROM the GARAGE, in this case FROM an attached garage occupancy (the "other side of the door) being THROUGH a(nother) garage occupancy.

    Ms. Harter specifically indicated as well, the garage door in HER question, opens TO a Utility Room passage through the home. Ms. Harter also indicated both the entire dwelling unit and the attached garage occupancy are fully sprinklered.

    California, and specifically, San Diego County Code, do not require "other" door openings in the separation wall to be other than self-closing and self-latching and maintaining the sealing required of the energy requirements (ch. 11) and to open in the egress direction of travel (and require no special knowledge, eeffort, key to open TO that direction of travel i.e. exiting the garage) when the attached garage and the dwelling are fully sprinklered -- it does NOT have to be a rated or prescribed thickness or type door -- unless in the Chapter 7A areas, which she is in.

    An exterior-type door, but one that is installed in the separation wall which also is part of the envelope between the dwelling and the unconditioned ENCLOSED garage does NOT make this an EXTERIOR DOOR opening.

    Back to the OP...and the OP's photo...I don't relieve Nick O indicted one way or the other regrding sprinklering of garage area and/or dwelling.

    All enclosed occupied ares are required to provide MEANS OF EGRESS which is dictated by the entirety of Section R311, including habital attics, utility rooms, laundry areas, and if a personal door is present in an attached garage, it too must provide MEANS OF EGRESS which meets R311.

    Penn or locl may require self-closing and/or self-latching by its CODE (adopted & ammended requirements).

    The pictured door is one that is an exterior door-type and one which has a directional side (exposure side). It is a weather-stripped door and one which is a pre-hung unit with an incorporated threshold.

    The TOP of the threshold, DOWN TO the Landing platform finished surface may not exceed a PRESCRIBED limitation for the DOOR for the door to be "allowed" to swing in any event, out over the landing.

    I see the defined bottom edge of the door (applied kick plate), the lighter weather stripped edge, and the framed finished edge. It appears to be at least 2" above the landing's finished grade - and with the door swing & STOP at the threshold - threshold height (uppermost projection from the walking surface) would far exceed the limitions for ANY door to swing out and over a stairway, including the "step down" from the NON-EXTERIOR (enclosed garage separation wall opening) limitations and exceptions found in R311. This difference also would explain the proximity relationship of the minimum guard rail height at the landing to the primary (pre-drilled) operator handle (lockset's "door-knob".

    The clear path of the stairway may well be further compromised by the presence of the "coat hook" storage IN the stairway upon the separation wall.

    ITs 2013. And I was and am NOT wrong in my responsive posts to Ms. T. Harter's questions regarding Her specific questions wherein she piggy-backed into this discussion with questions regarding HER San Diego County, California questions, and am NOT wrong regarding the INCORRECT orientation of door stop and swing of Nick O (O.P.)'s pedestrian door - separation wall (attached-enclosed garage) door opening/stairway and its MEANS OF EGRESS requirements and energy efficiency requirements.



    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-06-2013 at 08:34 AM.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Must be solid, 1 3/8'' fire rated. no penetrations. Not even a peep hole is allowed.


  51. #51
    Timothy M. Barr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    While we are on this subject doors leading to gagages Would a door between garage and house need a closer?


  52. #52
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Timothy, yes the door requires a closure mechanism.


  53. #53
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Slight View Post
    Must be solid, 1 3/8'' fire rated. no penetrations.
    That door "must" be fire rated? You sure? Has Texas adopted something different than the IRC?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  54. #54
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy M. Barr View Post
    While we are on this subject doors leading to gagages Would a door between garage and house need a closer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Timothy, yes the door requires a closure mechanism.
    Not based on the IRC previous to 2012.

    That requirement came into the IRC with the 2012 IRC.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  55. #55
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    What About the vehicle access door. How many of you know what a 90 mph door looks like? I'm finding almost no garage doors are wind rated on existing homes. They are not attached to the wood bucks correctly. The wood bucks are not attached to the framing correctly. Most of them don't have any horizontal supports.


  56. #56
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I live in a very windy place and I've never heard of a wind rating for garage doors. That's interesting.

    How windy? 50mph is common and gusts over 60 occasionally. I came home one day to find a large section of my 3-tab roof rolled up like a fruit roll. I now have dimensional shingles rated to 130mph.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  57. #57
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I live in a very windy place and I've never heard of a wind rating for garage doors. That's interesting.

    How windy?
    Lon,

    Think "high wind events" (AKA "hurricanes" ) ... garage doors get blown in, which breaches the envelope of the house, which leads to the house becoming pressurized, which leads to the roof blowing off ... not a desirable chain of events.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  58. #58
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Lon,

    Think "high wind events" (AKA "hurricanes" ) ... garage doors get blown in, which breaches the envelope of the house, which leads to the house becoming pressurized, which leads to the roof blowing off ... not a desirable chain of events.
    Yeah, that makes sense. I live in tornado country and have seen several around here. I doubt, (but don't really know) that a wind rated garage door will really make much of a difference with a direct tornado hit.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  59. #59
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Yeah, that makes sense. I live in tornado country and have seen several around here. I doubt, (but don't really know) that a wind rated garage door will really make much of a difference with a direct tornado hit.
    Your tornadoes have, most likely, much higher wind speeds than hurricanes, albeit that they come and go so quickly that the winds don't batter any given structure for hours ... just blows them apart in seconds!

    - An F0 Tornado
    - - Have wind speeds between 40-72 mph
    - - Causes light damage.
    - - Branches breaks off of trees and pushes over smaller trees.

    Not even a Hurricane until wind speed is 74 mph

    - An F1 Tornado
    - - Have wind speeds between 73-112 mph
    - - Causes moderate damage.
    - - Tiles breaks off of roofs. Cars and trailers gets pushed

    - Category 1 Hurricane
    - - Sustained winds of 74-95 mph
    - - Very dangerous winds will produce some damage: Well-constructed frame homes could have damage to roof, shingles, vinyl siding and gutters. Large branches of trees will snap and shallowly rooted trees may be toppled. Extensive damage to power lines and poles likely will result in power outages that could last a few to several days.

    - An F2 Tornado
    - - Have wind speeds between 113-157 mph
    - - Causes considerable damage.
    - - Roofs gets torned off. Big trees get toppled. Mobile homes are destroyed. Heavy cars are lifted and thrown.

    - Category 2 Hurricane
    - - Sustained winds of 96-110 mph
    - - Extremely dangerous winds will cause extensive damage: Well-constructed frame homes could sustain major roof and siding damage. Many shallowly rooted trees will be snapped or uprooted and block numerous roads. Near-total power loss is expected with outages that could last from several days to weeks.

    - Category 3 Hurricane
    - - Sustained winds of 111-129 mph
    - - Devastating damage will occur: Well-built framed homes may incur major damage or removal of roof decking and gable ends. Many trees will be snapped or uprooted, blocking numerous roads. Electricity and water will be unavailable for several days to weeks after the storm passes.

    - Category 4 Hurricane (Major)
    - - Sustained winds of 130-156 mph
    - - Catastrophic damage will occur: Well-built framed homes can sustain severe damage with loss of most of the roof structure and/or some exterior walls. Most trees will be snapped or uprooted and power poles downed. Fallen trees and power poles will isolate residential areas. Power outages will last weeks to possibly months. Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks or months.

    - An F3 Tornado
    - - Have wind speeds between 158206 mph
    - - Causes Severe Damage.
    - - Roofs torned off even on the most well constructed structures. Trains are overturned.

    - Category 5 Hurricane (Major)
    - - Sustained winds of 157 mph or higher
    - - Catastrophic damage will occur: A high percentage of framed homes will be destroyed, with total roof failure and wall collapse. Fallen trees and power poles will isolate residential areas. Power outages will last for weeks to possibly months. Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks or months.

    - An F4 Tornado
    - - Have wind speeds between 207-260 mph
    - - Causes Catostrophic Damage
    - - Well constructed structures are leveled. Structures with weak foundations are blown away.

    If we ever have a Category 5 Hurricane with 260 mph winds (throughout the hurricane - I will explain below) ... Bend over, place your head between your knees, and ... KYA Goodbye!

    Hurricane Andrew had winds speeds in that range in limited areas. The cause was that mini-tornadoes formed within the winds of Andrew, so a F1 Tornado with winds of 85 mph created this effect inside a Category 5 Hurricane: 165 mph wind with 85 mph wind spinning in the opposite direction = 80 mph winds - not a real big deal for a hurricane; however, the other side of the street had the 85 mph wind spinning in the same direction as the 165 mph wind = 250 mph winds ... as I said: KYA Goodbye on that side of the street!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  60. #60
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    Question Re: Door Between Garage and House

    I skimmed through this but I haven't seen discussion on how about the energy code. From what I'm reading, a garage door would have to meet the same rating as any other exterior door with regards to weatherization: insulated, weatherstripped, etc.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  61. #61
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    C'mon Bob. It's hard enough just trying to get people around here to understand why slathering roofing tar all over their chimney is a bad idea.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  62. #62
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    I skimmed through this but I haven't seen discussion on how about the energy code. From what I'm reading, a garage door would have to meet the same rating as any other exterior door with regards to weatherization: insulated, weatherstripped, etc.
    Bob,

    You are correct, that door needs to be treated like any exterior door with regard to the thermal envelope of the house, for that purpose, the garage door should be thought of as being an 'exterior door'.

    I bring that up now and then, but I don't recall it ever leading to much discussion, a little here and there, but not much.

    Thank you for bringing that door up as in that regard.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  63. #63
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House



    So does this mean my fire rated doggy door is out ; )

    Last edited by Don Hester; 01-24-2013 at 05:40 PM. Reason: typo
    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

  64. #64
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.


  65. #65
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    Default Re: Door Between Garage and House

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne Smith View Post
    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Issues in your garage door can happen anytime. If you need immediate assistance at any time of the day, highly trained servicemen are equipped to deliver prompt services to you.

    Hummmmmm........SPAM, I'm guessing.


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