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  1. #1
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    Default Engineered wood flooring...

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    badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042 TREC # 4563
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Can be sure that it was not the first time that the boy slid on the floor but I would bet anything that it will be last time.

    Flooring defect maybe, installation damage possible, parent responsibility definitely.
    Just because the parents were in the room does not mean they they were supervising the child responsibility. New slick and shiny floor to a boy means a different form of a "Slip-N-Slide" just one without the water.

    I am sure the parents feel they have no responsibility for the boys injury, just like so many others not taking responsibility for themselves.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Amazing ! Boy finds out that wood has splinters !
    Even more Amazing the parents allowed horse play in the house and expect someone else to pay for the consequences. I guess if he fell and got a concussion they would expect the flooring manufacturer to pay because the wood was too hard.

    They bought a wood floor, a natural product. There are natural consequences when using a natural product.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
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  4. #4
    Matt Fletcher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    That happened to a buddy when were were kids. Stuck in his chest, aka peck muscle.

    Detroit Home Inspector
    Detroit, Grosse Pointe Home Inspection


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    OOOOOOOUUUUUUCH

    I slid down a ill in nthe snow and some schmuck piled a brush pile out there (can you just think of that jerk actually had the nerve to do that :-) ). Of course on that icy hill I could not steer away and in I went. Abut 8 inches of a branch went thru the top lip then the bottom lip. My brothers had to break the not so easily broken branch and then a 1/4 mile home and then a few hours in the hospital. That was bad enough for a little kid.

    10 inches slid under the skin and then had to be cut out all of only 6 hours into it.

    OOOOOOOUUUUUCHEEEEWAHWAH


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Regal Hardwood Floors will regret not paying the asked for insurance deductible.
    Business Management - How to Prepare for a Lawsuit
    " Flooring is not a playground "

    Would a reasonable person expect this type behavior of a child could or would happen during the installed life expectancy of the floor covering?

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  7. #7
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Regal Hardwood Floors will regret not paying the asked for insurance deductible.
    Business Management - How to Prepare for a Lawsuit
    " Flooring is not a playground "

    Would a reasonable person expect this type behavior of a child could or would happen during the installed life expectancy of the floor covering?
    Probably just a tiny end of the would stick up very slightly. When 50 pounds or more kid slid into it a 20 miles and hour it bit into his ass and the rest separated from the flooring. I serious doubt a very close inspection would have picked up on that. Hand scraped as in rough uneven surface, always dark stained. There was no seeing that splinter happening.

    Who the heck did that boy think he was anyway :-). I was the youngest of 5 boys. I got slid across the floor a hundred times. Even slid down the pull down stairs from the attic in a card board box.

    Fun Fun Fun. Until mommy catches you


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Regal Hardwood Floors will regret not paying the asked for insurance deductible.
    Business Management - How to Prepare for a Lawsuit
    " Flooring is not a playground "
    I agree with the above and disagree with those who think this is "personal responsibility" for the boy or the parents.

    I believe it will be found to be "personal responsibility" of the installer, the supplier, and the manufacturer.

    How many wood floors area installed across which babies crawl on hands and knees, this after having figured out how to slide across the floor before they could crawl.

    Can you imagine what the outcry would be if that was a 6 month baby with a 3" splinter into the skin?

    If a stray piece of wood HAD NOT BEEN sticking out free of the floor, then the accident/incident would not have happened.

    What if you, as an inspector for a buyer, had been on your knees checking something out, and that splinter caught your pants and torn through and poked you ... ? I'm betting that each of you WOULD HAVE WRITTEN THAT UP as a hazard - am I right? If you think it is "personal responsibility" of the boy and the parents, then I presume that you WOULD NOT have written my example up ... I doubt many *would not* have written that up.

    I'm guessing that company would have gotten off cheap by not only offering that $5,000, but by offering their sincere apologies along with offering another $5,000 to show how sincere they were ... and offer a full unconditional release of future action along with that $10,000 check.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  9. #9
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I agree with the above and disagree with those who think this is "personal responsibility" for the boy or the parents.

    I believe it will be found to be "personal responsibility" of the installer, the supplier, and the manufacturer.

    How many wood floors area installed across which babies crawl on hands and knees, this after having figured out how to slide across the floor before they could crawl.

    Can you imagine what the outcry would be if that was a 6 month baby with a 3" splinter into the skin?

    If a stray piece of wood HAD NOT BEEN sticking out free of the floor, then the accident/incident would not have happened.

    What if you, as an inspector for a buyer, had been on your knees checking something out, and that splinter caught your pants and torn through and poked you ... ? I'm betting that each of you WOULD HAVE WRITTEN THAT UP as a hazard - am I right? If you think it is "personal responsibility" of the boy and the parents, then I presume that you WOULD NOT have written my example up ... I doubt many *would not* have written that up.

    I'm guessing that company would have gotten off cheap by not only offering that $5,000, but by offering their sincere apologies along with offering another $5,000 to show how sincere they were ... and offer a full unconditional release of future action along with that $10,000 check.
    You are having nightmares. The piece of wood may have been perfectly and the slide, weight of the child and tender young skin pushed it slightly to the side and slightly up to catch the skin and slide through.

    You use the term if a few times. If this if that, if we were kneeling and it caught our pants and ripped them and poked us. Well it would not have caught our pants IF WE HAD SEEN IT FIRST.

    Those evil money making pigs that made that flooring, millions of square feet, with people checking production all the way, quality control taking all steps to make sure it is a good, safe and salable product. Installers crawling around on their hands and knees installing it all day every day that did not see it. The home owners admiring there beautiful wood floor constantly looking at it and saying ooh ah, never saw it.

    To many ifs

    Personal responsibility??/ Its no ones fault. It was an accic=dent and accidents happen. It is not like they made a plastic product as in man made and did not do enough tests and the crap started separating and someone got stabbed by a piece of the plastic. No one saw the possible edge that caught the kid that slid into him. Have you ever looked at or installed a hand scraped floor I inspect them once or twice a week. All dark stained. I eyeball all of them and walk every square foot I can to make sure they are adhered to the concrete or nailed properly on the second floor. I can tell you straight off that I can see that happening real easy overlooking a slight edge that MAY cause a problem. There are edges throughout the entire home in that flooring. It is the most popular floor out there today is finer or more costly homes. Its everywhere.

    So tell me They pay 5000 and set a chain of events that buries them financially in the future or drive that product off the market because folks start getting little splinters and demand their 5000. Is that what you want and think should happen

    I am all for the little guy but these folks are not little guys anyway. I believe some of the larger companies make and keep way way way to much profit instead of filtering the profits to their little guys. I am the biggest advocate for the little guy.

    But that being said I still think you are having nightmares and over reacting in this case

    Just sayin!!!!

    Oh yeah. Another thing wrong with life today

    You think by giving money that it shows their true apology is the only way to make the apology show true.

    Lets see. They should have paid 5000 and then another 5000 and then another 10,000????? Man, I am moving back to Florida. They must be handing out wonderful meds nowadays.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Not enough info in the article to blame installer.

    Foreseeabilty:

    The facility to perceive, know in advance, or reasonably anticipate that damage or injury will probably ensue from acts or omissions.

    In the law of Negligence, the foreseeability aspect of proximate cause—the event which is the primary cause of the injury—is established by proof that the actor, as a person of ordinary intelligence and circumspection, should reasonably have foreseen that his or her negligent act would imperil others, whether by the event that transpired or some similar occurrence, and regardless of what the actor surmised would happen in regard to the actual event or the manner of causation of injuries.



  11. #11
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    The manufacture has in their documents "...The installer must use reasonable selectivity and hold out or cut off pieces with deficiencies, whatever the cause. Should an entire individual piece be doubtful as to grade, manufacture or factory finish, the installer should not use the piece. .. .", so the manufacture will point to the installer for any possible recourse. The installer says that it was fine when it was installed and must be a material defect and the manufactures responsibility. And the circle continues.

    The flooring use is engineered. Bottom line PLYWOOD. Plywood will splinter/separate. How many carpenters have been stuck with a slinter from the plywood they were handling? Now that sounds like a good Class Action Suite against all plywood manufactures. If the parents wanted a real wood floor they should have gone with traditional 3/4 T&G. Oh, but that will splinter also. You can't win.

    Does it not seem a little disingenuous that the parents claim the bow just fell?
    I am sure they they would have said, the the boy was sliding across the floor and they thought it was cute and an accident happened, if that was the real truth. Yea right....they wouldn't alter the truth just a little ... would they?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The manufacture has in their documents "...The installer must use reasonable selectivity and hold out or cut off pieces with deficiencies, whatever the cause. Should an entire individual piece be doubtful as to grade, manufacture or factory finish, the installer should not use the piece. .. .", so the manufacture will point to the installer for any possible recourse. The installer says that it was fine when it was installed and must be a material defect and the manufactures responsibility. And the circle continues.

    The flooring use is engineered. Bottom line PLYWOOD. Plywood will splinter/separate. How many carpenters have been stuck with a slinter from the plywood they were handling? Now that sounds like a good Class Action Suite against all plywood manufactures. If the parents wanted a real wood floor they should have gone with traditional 3/4 T&G. Oh, but that will splinter also. You can't win.

    Does it not seem a little disingenuous that the parents claim the bow just fell?
    I am sure they they would have said, the the boy was sliding across the floor and they thought it was cute and an accident happened, if that was the real truth. Yea right....they wouldn't alter the truth just a little ... would they?
    I think we can't see the forest from the trees. Is it reasonable use on a floor to have a kid playing? Yes. It is reasonable to expect a floor to be safe? Yes.
    If not we will have floors that are nice to walk on (shoes only), and kids can play only with adult supervision.
    As a kid I played on oak T&G, beat the hell out of it, did everything on it---no damage to me or the floor except a few dents. What this article shows is apairently a laminated type floor can separate and cause issues. It needs a close look when inspecting a home.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Did I miss something? The article refers to the flooring as 'hardwood', I don't understand how a laminate can splinter given the core is MDF?


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Did I add that the home owners may have dropped something on the floor that brought and edge up or started that slight lift of an edge or caused that edge to splinter??????

    No one knows and will absolutely never know.

    Decision to Installer and Manufacturer....and the gavel drops.


    As far as close inspection???

    You would have to crawl every square inch of that floor sliding your hand in every direction and still more than likely not find it. Oh yeah, pushing with many pounds of weight behind it at a very fast pace. Oh I know. We need to take a young boy along with us and throw him in the air hitting the floor at 20 miles and hour across every square inch of floor to see if he does get a splinter.

    Yes I have slid across floors all my young life and don't really remember if I got a splinter or not. But!!!!!!!! Did I slide in every direction on that floor with a particular clothing on that catches the slightest splinter with 50 lbs of weight on top of it.

    Gross negligence on anyone's behalf. I think not.

    In a multitude of years behind me in construction I can honestly say I have gotten a splinter or a cut from about every type of material one could imagine. I can also say that I have had small cuts and or splinters and such in a multitude of homes doing inspections. If I were pushing with 10s of pounds of pressure behind it I may have had a long sliver of would or a very deep cut.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    I ran over a nail and got a flat tire.
    Should I sue the tire manufacturer or the manufacturer of the nail or the roads department or vehicle manufacturer or all four?

    Crap happens.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I ran over a nail and got a flat tire.
    Should I sue the tire manufacturer or the manufacturer of the nail or the roads department or vehicle manufacturer or all four?

    Crap happens.
    If the Tire was defective ( Firestone ) and was a blowout with injuries and or death.
    *crap happens

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    It appears that the HI business is populated with Libertarians or at least, small "L" libertarians. But I think, this is a situation of insufficient information. A defective plank, poor installation, post installation damage (such as heavy object dropped on the floor), or just bizarre circumstance. It seems obvious to most of us that wood floors, whether solid or engineered, can have a ready splinter ready to prick someone, but I have met many young urbanite couples who don't appear to be aware of this. Many of these folks don't even own a hammer or pliers. Heck, not even any duct tape!


    But in this litigious country of ours, Jerry is probably correct and others will pay. Who knows? Investigation might well reveal that Regal or the installer do, in fact, have some fault.

    Is there any lesson here? Not sure. For us as inspectors, we have to not only do the best we can, but actually do the best inspections possible. The best "CYA" is doing a quality inspection.

    As for the rest...........Kids will do things that have risk. Reflecting on my childhood, I think there was an element of Darwinism in it. Years ago, I caught my kids seeing how high up on the stairs they could jump onto a pillow they had placed on the floor. Rather than stop it, I decided to supervise it. No one got hurt and they got it out of their system. I have no doubt that someone somewhere will be horrified that I didn't immediately bring that activity to an abrupt stop. They are all grown now.......it will be interesting to see how they raise their own kids.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Did I miss something? The article refers to the flooring as 'hardwood', I don't understand how a laminate can splinter given the core is MDF?
    The floor is a plywood core not MDF. Check out the manufactures site. I had the same question. So looking at their web site it looks like an engineered floor (plywood).


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The floor is a plywood core not MDF. Check out the manufactures site. I had the same question. So looking at their web site it looks like an engineered floor (plywood).

    Engineered floor wih a wood top


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Engineered floor wih a wood top
    Was that the part that stuck in the Little boy's behind ?

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  21. #21
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Was that the part that stuck in the Little boy's behind ?
    Uh, yup!

    You know. 2 years ago or more when I was in the hospital, before I even was admitted they tried to kill me by sending me home. I was already septic and bloated like I was nine months pregant. I had blood tests, urinalysis, and xrays showing I was about dead. "If you don't feel better by Monday come on back in! After I was in there they had a nurse that would have probably killed me because she was on 5 times the medication I was so I was able to stop here as she was about falling over trying to put her hand on the machine next to me.. Then they proceeded on to pumping about 5 of those big bags of fluid A DAY into my veins and it had to go somewhere and it almost drowned me internally and my lungs and body blue up like a balloon and almost suffocated me.

    I could have suid the Doctor and the Hospital and the Nursing staff and anyone else I wanted to and walked awy with a lot of money.

    The truth is it was a sorry chain of events that took place at the same time. I did come thru it all unscathed. I lived. They got rid of the nurse and changed policy to actually pay attention on the discs the doctors send along with you instead of ignoring them altogether.

    What am I getting to here???

    The poor kid got one hell of a wake up call with a stick up his backside and all came out all right. The floor was repaired and I am sure looked over one more of the hundred times it had been looked over.

    At the end of the day all is good. If they did not have a 5000 deductible and it was half or quartered as in pad for it then they would not be complaining either. You get what you pay for. Pay for cheaper insurance and you get what you pay for. Do not be looking for someone else to pay for it for you.

    Here is one more. Stop worrying and complaining that we have to pay for insurance that some one else truly cannot. After all when ever we buy a good or a service that the folks with insurance produce....we are paying for their insurance. God forbid they have to pay for someone elses insurance.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Was that the part that stuck in the Little boy's behind ?
    This one has a top is a veneer with 7-10 ply baltic birch hardwood core with stable cross-grain construction. With their product they distress the top layer to give the look of years of use/abuse.

    Laminate vs Engineered:
    Laminate flooring is different than Engineered flooring. Laminate has a pressed core with a photo finish on it where by contrast Engineered flooring is basically furniture grade plywood.

    The Laminate can have the surface flake up where the Engineered can splinter. Both will usually occure on the cut edge and is typically the result of the edge being damaged, damage by a force acting on it or water, causing the edge to lift/separate from the core.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    All I know is this - if I noticed a splinter in the floor and said something about it, the sellers would scream damage to their credibility and a pair of Betty Bighairs would put me on their blacklists for ever.

    Not that that would stop me. Splinters are nasty.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    All I know is this -Betty Bighairs would put me on their blacklists for ever. .
    Betty Bighairs

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Betty Bighairs

    Yeah Yeah

    Realtor!!!!!!


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Betty Bighairs
    Billy.... they speak funny in the Lone Star State!
    You may need a Texas-to-English Dictionary


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Rich,
    Trapped in the 60's.
    When men were men and women had hair and new how to use it.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    This one has a top is a veneer with 7-10 ply baltic birch hardwood core with stable cross-grain construction. With their product they distress the top layer to give the look of years of use/abuse.

    Laminate vs Engineered:
    Laminate flooring is different than Engineered flooring. Laminate has a pressed core with a photo finish on it where by contrast Engineered flooring is basically furniture grade plywood.

    The Laminate can have the surface flake up where the Engineered can splinter. Both will usually occure on the cut edge and is typically the result of the edge being damaged, damage by a force acting on it or water, causing the edge to lift/separate from the core.
    Thank you for the description / discrimination. When building I used an engineered bamboo that prospective buyers could not understand as anything other than laminate. They assume it's either solid or it's laminate. There are some good solid products available, but I decided on engineered flooring to reduce the possibility of buckling over time. From a longivity perspective; once you have sanded down to where the tongue joint is visable which is the depth of the top layer, it is time for new flooring anyway.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Anything with multiple layers is a laminate. The hand scraped flooring is not a plywood top.

    Then baltic birch plywood top is a cheap product and getting a splinter from plywood no matter how good the grade is has a serious amount more possibility of that splinter happening.

    Laminate is laminate no matter what the material. It is still engineered even if it is glued together plywood. We are pulling hairs here.

    Solid wood? A good possibility that someone down the line or even the installer may get a splinter. Plywood (laminate)? the greatest possibility or the plastic laminates that have separated.
    You can get a boo boo with all of them. Damaged good whether it be from the installer or home owner obviously increases that possibility.

    Just saying. A laminate is layers joined together. It is a laminated product (plywood for one) and always has been.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Laminate is laminate no matter what the material. It is still engineered even if it is glued together plywood. We are pulling hairs here.

    Just saying. A laminate is layers joined together. It is a laminated product (plywood for one) and always has been.
    Saying that "Laminate is laminate no matter what the material." is only accurate in one sense, and is inaccurate in another sense, and is thus not a suitable statement to make as a stand alone statement.

    "Laminate" is the plastic laminate top of the flooring in what is referred to as "laminate flooring".

    'Laminate' as a method of wood construction is the reason they call it "engineered wood" - the top layer *is* "solid wood", i.e., "a natural wood product", the base the top later is on is plywood, which is multiple layers laminated together ... so, I ask you, Ted, when someone says "plywood" do you say "No, it is *laminate*?"

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Laminate is also comprised of MDF or HDF core, fwiw.


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Laminate is also comprised of MDF or HDF core, fwiw.
    Depends on how you are using the term "laminate".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    So a veneer is a laminate...semantics...we just need to know whose dictionary were using...


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    So a veneer is a laminate...semantics...we just need to know whose dictionary were using...
    We Need to Know Who's Gonna Be Writing the Splinter in the Behind Check !

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  35. #35
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Saying that "Laminate is laminate no matter what the material." is only accurate in one sense, and is inaccurate in another sense, and is thus not a suitable statement to make as a stand alone statement.

    "Laminate" is the plastic laminate top of the flooring in what is referred to as "laminate flooring".

    'Laminate' as a method of wood construction is the reason they call it "engineered wood" - the top layer *is* "solid wood", i.e., "a natural wood product", the base the top later is on is plywood, which is multiple layers laminated together ... so, I ask you, Ted, when someone says "plywood" do you say "No, it is *laminate*?"
    Not in general conversation. Now if they ask me "what is plywood"? My answer is multiple layers of thin sheets of wood laminated together. Thus it is a laminate. A laminated wood product.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Not in general conversation. Now if they ask me "what is plywood"? My answer is multiple layers of thin sheets of wood laminated together. Thus it is a laminate. A laminated wood product.
    So now we can call plywood "glue lam" for "glue" "laminated", right?

    Sorry, Ted, I ain't buyin' what you're sellin' in this case.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Plywood is a common example of a laminate using the same material in each layer. Glued and laminated dimensioned timber is used in the construction industry to make wooden beams,
    Lamination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Glued laminated timber, also called Glulam, is a type of structural timber product composed of several layers of dimensioned timber bonded together with durable, moisture-resistant adhesives. This material is called 'laminating stock' or lamstock for short.
    By laminating several smaller pieces of timber...

    Glued laminated timber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    It is not about definitions from a dictionary. It is the flooring industry and how it refers to the flooring. MDF, or compressed cardboard with a plastic coating is typically referred to as "laminate flooring". Flooring with vernier layers glued together (several plys of wood=plywood) is typically referred to as engineered. Again it is what the industry used to differentiate between the two methods of flooring. Not to be confused in the manor of wood flooring as opposed to solid wood flooring. The engineered (plywood) flooring is wood but 3/4 T&G is solid wood .

    Many use the term laminate to describe manufactured flooring in general, but when you get into the nitty gritty of it you will find the flooring with multiple layers of wood will be called "engineered".


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Plywood is a common example of a laminate using the same material in each layer. Glued and laminated dimensioned timber is used in the construction industry to make wooden beams,
    Lamination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Glued laminated timber, also called Glulam, is a type of structural timber product composed of several layers of dimensioned timber bonded together with durable, moisture-resistant adhesives. This material is called 'laminating stock' or lamstock for short.
    By laminating several smaller pieces of timber...

    Glued laminated timber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Rick, sorry but I would never use Wikipedia as a definite source in any discussion due to the nature of its method of information collection. However, if you referred to information from a manufacturer of the product, a related product organization, or a definition from a code-----then I would be a happy person.


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Now you are venturing into the world of "LVL " vs "Gluelam". Similar to each other but different.

    Here is a nice ditty on LVL and Gluelam in PDF.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...3YMZJQ&cad=rja

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 11-27-2012 at 05:14 AM. Reason: more info

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Anything with multiple layers is a laminate. The hand scraped flooring is not a plywood top.

    Then baltic birch plywood top is a cheap product and getting a splinter from plywood no matter how good the grade is has a serious amount more possibility of that splinter happening.

    Laminate is laminate no matter what the material. It is still engineered even if it is glued together plywood. We are pulling hairs here.

    Solid wood? A good possibility that someone down the line or even the installer may get a splinter. Plywood (laminate)? the greatest possibility or the plastic laminates that have separated.
    You can get a boo boo with all of them. Damaged good whether it be from the installer or home owner obviously increases that possibility.

    Just saying. A laminate is layers joined together. It is a laminated product (plywood for one) and always has been.
    Thanks for the enlightenment. So engineered, ( furniture grade ), plywood with a 1/8" to 1/4" top layer is a laminate. The cheap plastic photo finish material is a laminate and plywood is a laminate. I can make this easier for you to discrimate the various types - - - call them "flooring" and everyone will surely know which grade of product you're referencing. And for lunch I'll wager you do not eat sanwiches, but bread laminates.


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    Thanks for the enlightenment. So engineered, ( furniture grade ), plywood with a 1/8" to 1/4" top layer is a laminate. The cheap plastic photo finish material is a laminate and plywood is a laminate. I can make this easier for you to discrimate the various types - - - call them "flooring" and everyone will surely know which grade of product you're referencing. And for lunch I'll wager you do not eat sanwiches, but bread laminates.
    Garry,
    I think you just brought the whole conversation back to message #1.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Garry,
    I think you just brought the whole conversation back to message #1.
    Donno if you're thinkin that is good or bad. The O.P. doesn't matter ? I was admittedly scarcastic, but calling all laminated products laminates is no help in communicating. A comparable example I recall was electrical and about Load Centers. Neither the code nor Webster acknowledge this name for an electrical panel. Yet when you order a 400 amp or smaller panel from an electrical supplier the first question they will ask is "load center or panel board". Gimme a laminate or gimme a panel, is not enough information. They are very different. The other Garry schooled us on what the flooring trade names mean in trade terms; not Webster and blowing that off as they're all laminates is no different than saying they're all wood products or they're all manufactured products.


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    To make the discussion of laminate a little more twisted. Laminate flooring has different layers of material in them. There is a base material, a core material, a top material and a top coating(wear layer). They, manufactures and sales, consider each material a layer including the top liquid coating applied to the base layers. So a liquid finish is considered a layer of the laminate not just a coating. It does not have to make sense, be logical or carryover to anything else. Its their nomenclature for their products.

    If you walk into a place selling flooring goods
    1) ask for a Laminate Flooring you will be shown the compressed (MDF, cardboard, paper) cores with a wear layer.
    2)ask to see wood flooring and you will be shown engineered and solid T&G flooring
    3)ask for solid flooring and you get traditional T&G
    4) ask for sheet goods and you will be shown vinyl flooring 6" and 12" widths
    5) ask for vinyl flooring you get 12"x12" as well as 6' and 12' rolls of vinyl

    And the vinyl flooring is comprised of several layers, though they are not laminated together in the conventional sense, but with the industry logic it might be called laminated.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    To make the discussion of laminate a little more twisted. Laminate flooring has different layers of material in them. There is a base material, a core material, a top material and a top coating(wear layer). They, manufactures and sales, consider each material a layer including the top liquid coating applied to the base layers. So a liquid finish is considered a layer of the laminate not just a coating. It does not have to make sense, be logical or carryover to anything else. Its their nomenclature for their products.....
    Objectively, calling the finish a layer makes sense, especially if you are into woodworking. To go even a little further, the "finish" layer is actually composed of many "layers'----a primer layer of some sort, intermediate coats (layers) and the actual final finish coat (layer). (Twisting a little more)


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    If you walk into a place selling flooring goods
    1) ask for a Laminate Flooring you will be shown the compressed (MDF, cardboard, paper) cores with a wear layer.
    2)ask to see wood flooring and you will be shown engineered and solid T&G flooring
    3)ask for solid flooring and you get traditional T&G
    4) ask for sheet goods and you will be shown vinyl flooring 6" and 12" widths
    5) ask for vinyl flooring you get 12"x12" as well as 6' and 12' rolls of vinyl
    I walk into a place selling flooring and I say, "just looking, but thanks for asking".


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Okay, let's try Parquet flooring...it must fall into engineering, veneer, laminate, mechanical....more....


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    Okay, let's try Parquet flooring...it must fall into engineering, veneer, laminate, mechanical....more....
    Depends on manufacture and process used.
    There are three basic kinds:
    - Laminated - like the plastic finishes on a core. cheapest
    - Engineered - wood strips on a veneer
    - Solid wood - solid wood strips on a mesh of some king (kinda like 1"x1" tile made up in 12"x12" sheets) or with a removable surface that holds the strips together.
    - Real old materials (solid wood) laid as one little strip at a time


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Depends on manufacture and process used.
    There are three basic kinds:
    - Laminated - like the plastic finishes on a core. cheapest
    - Engineered - wood strips on a veneer
    - Solid wood - solid wood strips on a mesh of some king (kinda like 1"x1" tile made up in 12"x12" sheets) or with a removable surface that holds the strips together.
    - Real old materials (solid wood) laid as one little strip at a time
    Jerry! Jump in anytime!!!!


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Jerry! Jump in anytime!!!!
    I'm sitting here eatin' my popcorn and drinkin' my Diet Mtn Dew ... but it looks like I need to get some more supplies so I don't run out ...


    ... all while rubbin' my feet on my real wood laminated engineered glue laminated solid wood floor which is glue laminated to my real wood laminated engineered glue laminated subfloor which is ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'm sitting here eatin' my popcorn and drinkin' my Diet Mtn Dew ... but it looks like I need to get some more supplies so I don't run out ...


    ... all while rubbin' my feet on my real wood laminated engineered glue laminated solid wood floor which is glue laminated to my real wood laminated engineered glue laminated sub-floor which is ...

    Hey

    I got one of those as well


  52. #52
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    Thanks for the enlightenment. So engineered, ( furniture grade ), plywood with a 1/8" to 1/4" top layer is a laminate. The cheap plastic photo finish material is a laminate and plywood is a laminate. I can make this easier for you to discrimate the various types - - - call them "flooring" and everyone will surely know which grade of product you're referencing. And for lunch I'll wager you do not eat sanwiches, but bread laminates.

    Fact is they are all some kind of laminate no matter what the manufacturer or book wants to call it. Also a simple fact. Most folks you ask in a flooring department could not tell you what the difference is anyway. Another fact is if you say to 90 some odd percent of home owners "laminate" all they know is it is some kinda wood floor even if it has no wood in it at all. Some will say "that sheet stuff in my kitchen"?


  53. #53
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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Ted,
    You need to shop in a better educated sales environment.

    And, do they say "that sheet stuff in my kitchen" or "that cheap stuff in my kitchen"??.


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Had someone ask yesterday what the difference was in Laminate Flooring and Engineered Flooring, which brought this thread back to my thoughts. Some being confused by the terms/naming of the materials. So hoping to provide something for those wanting a specific flooring source to reference, I put some information together for anyone to use.

    National Wood Flooring Association
    National Wood Flooring Association | NWFA
    Types of Wood Floors, Hardwood Flooring Types | NWFA

    There are two types of wood floors available on the market today: Solid and Engineered.

    Solid wood flooring is exactly what the name implies: a solid piece of wood from top to bottom. The thickness of solid wood flooring can vary, but generally ranges from ¾” to 5/16”. One of the many benefits of solid wood flooring is that it can be sanded and refinished many times. Solid wood flooring can be installed above or on grade.

    Engineered wood floors are real wood floors that are manufactured using three to nine layers of different wood veneers. The sub layers can be of the same species, or of different species. The grain of each layer runs in different directions, which makes it very stable. This means that the wood will expand and contract less than solid wood flooring during fluctuations in humidity and temperature. The top layer of engineered wood flooring consists of high-quality wood. While this type of flooring can be sanded and finished, it cannot be done as many times as solid wood flooring. Engineered wood flooring can be installed above, on or below grade.
    (((See 2nd attached picture for Engineered))))

    North American Laminate Flooring Association
    What is Laminate Flooring? - NALFA - North American Laminate Floor Association
    What Exactly is Laminate Flooring?
    NALFA Certified laminate flooring is comprised of a hybrid of materials fused together through a unique lamination process. ((see diagram link ))

    http://nalfa.com/assets/img/what-is-laminate-layers.jpg
    1. A transparent, protective wear layer is highly resistant to dogs, cats, chairs, and even high heels.
    2. The decorative layer provides a high definition, highly detailed image. Today’s laminate flooring manufacturers have the technology and capability to realistically simulate everything from hardwood to marble to stone.
    3. A high-density fiberboard core (or HDF) offers impact resistance, stability and long-lasting durability.
    4. A layer comprised of melamine resin offers additional structural stability and moisture resistance.
    5. Underlayment (which may or may not be built into the laminate floor product) is a requirement for any installation. It’s helpful in absorbing some of the minor imperfections in the sub-floor, reducing some noise when walking on the floor, and softening some of the impact. Some underlayments also offer a moisture barrier on one side, which is a good idea for bathroom and wet area installations.(((See 1st attached picture for Laminate ))


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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    Thanks Garry.
    One comment I might add - don't install laminate in a bathroom, regardless of what they say. For one thing, it needs to be left floating, so you can never really seal the edge at the walls. Plus there are all the seams that can hold water and leak.

    Butt going back to Barry's butt splinter, no it couldn't have been a laminate floor, because that stuff can't splinter.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Engineered wood flooring...

    I recently helped install some laminate floor in a house. A friend of mine who visited the house commented about the floor. Then she told me of her experience with a nail down wood floor she had installed. The installers we not getting the nail installed right and it was pushing up the floor above the nails to the point of damaging the surface. It very well could have been an installation error that caused it.

    This sounds like a product liability issue. The homeowners are asking for something reasonable, the out of pocket medical cost paid. The business owner should have written a $5,000 check and gotten a release signed and been done with it. Now the homeowner will need to get an attorney and they may very well be upset and decide to seek more money. If it were me and the business didnt want to pay I would tell the lawyer to handle it and get what they could. In most cases the lawyer is going to get a 1/3 so that means the settlement would have to be at least $7,500 for the homeowner to get their medical covered.


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