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  1. #1
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    Default Headroom Clearance

    Just curious as to how some of you might write this up. Inspection on a fully renovated home where a bonus room was built. As photo shows, just 18" in from edge of staircase landing, a sloped ceiling's midpoint, or point that I hit my head standing straight up, was only 62" in height, surely an improper installation as well as safety hazard. Trying to decipher the IRC 311.7.2, I'm showing a minimum height of 80" required. I don't quoute code and builder said she had no choice due to roof rafter location.......

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Just write it up like you did. Improper head clearance. It's unlikely the buyer or subsequent buyers will care. Of course, the builder could have done a dorma there but that would have been too much trouble and additional expense.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Lon, the client did say that he was not worried about it. He will be the first time a friend busts his head wide open on it and falls back down the stairs, but then again, it might not be that great a friend to begin with..


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Subick View Post
    Lon, the client did say that he was not worried about it. He will be the first time a friend busts his head wide open on it and falls back down the stairs, but then again, it might not be that great a friend to begin with..
    Recommend posting a "No Drunks Past This Sign" sign at the bottom of the stairs

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Or, a sign similarly found in amusement parks, only in this case, a persons height "must not exceed 60" to board this ride?


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    I write up limited overhead clearance, missing/inadequate safety railings and improper stair tread and riser height design on a daily basis. I recommended correction for safety and know 99% of the time nothing ever gets done. All you can do is explain it to your clients and tell them what they should do. After that it's up to them.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Reminds me of a female "home builder" friend of my then-wife in a former life. She was a rather tall, shapely blonde, and knew little about home building, but had a few other skills. We were taking a brief tour of her latest spec home, and I happened to notice a few things (significant, in my mind) that were definitely not code-compliant. After pointing a few of them out to her, she stated she "had ways of dealing with the City's inspectors," and proceeded to immediately bend down in front of me (wearing no bra, and a very loose-fitting blouse with a few open buttons), pretending to pick something up from the floor. She then stood back up, smiling, and said "Do you see what I mean?"

    I blurted out an "OK!" But still wouldn't have let the screw-ups slip past if I had been working for the AHJ.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    While the space in question is useable space if probably won't fly for "finished space" when it comes to the appraisal. Other issues to consider for this particular space; insulation & ventilation of the attic and knee walls. Vapor barrier installation...most of them around me have the vapor barrier of the knee wall incorrectly on the unconditioned side of the insulation. The window shown should also be tempered glass.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    As home inspectors the best we can do is report the safety concerns we have with the stairway. Recommend they not use the area as habitable living space without correcting the concerns. Politely tell them, as is this is a vey nice storage area.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    You've stated this is a full rehab. Therefore, there are no questions or options. You report that the current configuration is NOT compliant with current Code height/clearance requirements. A full rehab is required to meet current Code and have proper permits.
    There is no need for you to quote Code. The fact that it isn't compliant is obvious. Let them prove you wrong; which of course isn't possible.
    The second some moron builder tells me they had no other option is when two things happen, 1) I tell them to get another job; 2) I make it my mission to shove it to them until they bleed out of their ears.
    The simple and common option around here for that problem is to build a small 4' wide dormer with a window or skylight at that location. It isn't rocket science. For a couple carpenters its a two day job. I used to do it regularly.
    - Ask for the permit for the rehab; no permit, everything is non-compliant no matter what; at least by our standards
    - Was this an original 2nd floor or was this a vintage storage / partial occupancy use attic? If it was NOT an original 2nd floor then assume joists are undersized for full occupancy space. Measure the top step area or find a hole somewhere to measure the joist. Undersized joists are a slam dunk. Extremely rare that the builder actually upsized the joists or reduced 1st floor span.
    - measure the kneewall height and verify your local requirements; builders usually build the kneewalls too short in order to keep the rooms wider; another slam dunk
    - you got the window right? looks like 8" or so off of the floor; required to be tempered and/or have a guardrail installed depending on your local requirements.
    - Is that the only window for that room? If it is it probably doesn't measure out for sufficient light and ventilation for the room size. I don't always include the measurements in the report but I always measure the room and window. another easy slam dunk; room is not compliant for full occupancy due to insufficient light and vent
    - Current rehab? that's great Mr. Builder, please provide in writing what type and R-value insulation you put in all those roof rafter cavities; this concern goes straight to the homebuyers monthly gas bill and comfort levels; very big issue
    - did they install continuous soffit venting and a ridge vent? NO? another slam dunk for improper ventilation; Oh so you are telling me you built this as a non-vented roof system Mr. Builder? That's great. Please provide the buyer with the Plans and Specs by the architect that told your workers exactly what to do in order for this to be a properly constructed non-vented roof system. Oh, you don't have that, Oh, you don't remember what standard or Spec was used
    - DO NOT base what you include in your report on what the client says is or isn't important to them; Write what you see. Regardless of whether someone thinks its important or not
    Of course for those that do worthless checkbox reports none of this matters since there is no room on a POS checkbox report for critical analysis.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    From my experience in my area, buyers will simply shake their heads but ultimately do nothing about it. I state the issue, put it in the report, and let them sort out the rest.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    It looks like a typical Cape Cod attic converted into a finished space. Note any safety and structural concerns in your report and move on. It's nothing to get worked up over.

    Other concerns with Cape Cod 2nd floors I don't think were mentioned: Ceiling cracks at the first floor from knee wall stress/2 x 6 joists above, and minimal heat/AC supply to the upstairs and no returns.

    I hope Markus does not bring a taser on his inspections.

    Mike Lamb
    Inspection Connection, Inc.
    http://www.inspection2020.com/

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Maybe no tasers, but he probably wouldn't be averse to water-boarding a few of his area's "moron builders" to extract the truth from them.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Unless I am looking at the picture wrong, it appears to me that is a valley rafter in the questioned area. Adding a dormer there would prove most difficult.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  15. #15
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    Chesapeake, VA
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    I wonder if this room passed a city inspection? Their appears to be multible issues that need to be pointed out to the new buyers. Maybe this room was built 40 years ago and the remodel was just paint and carpet ?
    1. The ceiling height at the top landing of the stairs.
    2. The window height off the foor.
    3. The window should have safety glass.
    4. The missing guard for the top step.
    5. Are the rafters properly secured to resist the horizontal thrust? Whare are the rafter ties.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Another issue........... The handrail is too short, which I report as:

    "Hazardous = handrail too short.

    KISS

    Bruce Low
    Bottom Line Home Inspection
    Northeast Wisconsin
    The Bottom Line - Through an Engineer's Eyes


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    I hesitate to comment on this one, but I think that the ceiling issue in this situation may actually comply with the code. The IRC allows lower ceiling heights in rooms with sloped ceilings in the exception to R305. It requires 6'-8" at the stairway, which the photo seems to indicate, but nothing in the code requires you to maintain that height passed the end of the stairway (no landing is required at the top of the stairway per R311.7.5). Is this a smart installation? NO! Will someone crack their head on it someday? YES! But I think this installation meets the WORDING in the code if not the intent. The handrail, however, does not extend to the end of the stairway which is a problem if there is not a handrail on the other side of the stairway.

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Huggett View Post
    I hesitate to comment on this one, but I think that the ceiling issue in this situation may actually comply with the code. The IRC allows lower ceiling heights in rooms with sloped ceilings in the exception to R305. It requires 6'-8" at the stairway, which the photo seems to indicate, but nothing in the code requires you to maintain that height passed the end of the stairway (no landing is required at the top of the stairway per R311.7.5). Is this a smart installation? NO! Will someone crack their head on it someday? YES! But I think this installation meets the WORDING in the code if not the intent.
    I disagree with your assertion that the stair shown in the photo: "I think this installation meets the WORDING in the code if not the intent."

    First and foremost is that the code WORDING states:
    - R311.7.6 Landings for stairways.
    - - There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).
    - - - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

    The WORDING states: "Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs ... ", okay, HOW does one NOT provide a floor or landing at the top of the stair? By installing a door or wall at the top of the stair, that is how. However, there is NO door or wall at the top of the stair, thus there IS a floor or landing at the top of the stairs - *the floor or landing WAS provided*, thus that floor or landing (in the case of a stair, the floor at the top of a stair 'is' the 'landing'), and being as there IS a landing at the top of the stair the requirements for a landing shall be applied.

    Thus, this applies:
    - R311.7.2 Headroom.
    - - The minimum headroom in all parts of the stairway shall not be less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) measured vertically from the sloped line adjoining the tread nosing or from the floor surface of the landing or platform on that portion of the stairway.

    The landing IS part of the "all parts of the stairway" and thus all parts of the stairway, which includes the entire minimum size of the landing, is required to meet that minimum headroom.

    Hard to believe that you are a CBO? I am confused with that behind your name and your post above.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Oh man, I could soooo go for the taser or water boarding idea with developers. Probably wouldn't work though to get the truth out of them. They've spent so many years lying the truth can't survive within them. However...
    As we all know, there is no perfect house. I (and probably many of you) have spent a fair amount of time telling buyers some variation of 'you are buying an old house, it isn't perfect, there will be things to fix, you have to figure out if you want to deal with it or not, blah blah, etc etc. All of that is fairly standard, you know the routine.
    However, when it comes to the rehabbed, fully rehabbed, vintage charm with all the modern amenities, nothing to do, move right in, its a Gem listing there are other major concerns HI's should be looking at. A rehab listing brings about certain expectations in buyers minds. Whether these are legitimate or not is another issue. Nonetheless, I (and probably many of you) have looked at so many rehabbed, perfect, nothing to do houses there were complete nightmares.
    A couple recent examples from completely rehabbed, perfect houses would include 19 broken joists, a brand new 80+ furnace venting into the kneewalls instead of any chimney and basement bedrooms without heat or ventilation, aluminum wire lugged into the 100A copper wire main to feed a (wait for it Jerry) 60A sub panel.
    Over time I've developed a fairly standard script that I discuss with clients. This includes the following 4 critical categories that I've come up with. I'm hoping to have time this week to finally put these together in an article on my website. We'll see...
    1- Safety concerns - obvious one, safe or not, safety hazards, etc
    2- Municipal liability - I don't know how it works where you guys are but this is how it works around here. In the City, violations run with the property not the owner. Therefore if the City comes in 1 month after purchase and writes the house for non-compliance and no permits. The current owner i.e. buyer will have to deal with the situation and bring the property into full compliance. Depending on circumstances this can run a few thousand to tens of thousands
    3- Post purchase costs - "it's rehabbed, it's new, it's perfect, we won't have to spend any money on the house for years". This unfortunately ends up not being true all too often. Many buyers have ended up in dire straits because they don't expect or prepare for post purchase needs. I had buyers last year who thought the house they want to buy had a new furnace. Someone had done a really good job washing and sprucing up a 15 year old furnace to make it look 'new'.
    4- Getting what you are paying for / Resale - If a buyer is paying market value for a 5 bedroom house, then that's what they should actually be getting. Unfortunately that is often not the case. Whenever someone calls me for an HI in the City in a vintage house / bungalow and the house has 5-6 bedrooms, I know immediately at least 2 will likely be illegal conversions. It is important to let the client know they are only buying a compliant 3 bedroom house. I've had buyers say they don't care they want the house anyway. I've also had buyers walk from a deal because they understood the potential financial loss and liability of that scenario.
    Some may feel I'm being picky by bringing up these types of issues. For me its a matter of protecting the client from the sharks. It's one thing to buy a little old ladies house that hasn't had anything done in decades. It's another to buy an unsafe, non-compliant house that is being sold as a new Caddy just so joe scumbag developer can put more profit in his pocket.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Mr. Peck,

    As a Plans Examiner/Building Official with 33 years experience working for 5 different jurisdictions, ICC Certified Building Official and Plans Examiner as well as California Registered Civil and Structural Engineer I have had many discussions with architects, engineers, contractors, inspectors and other building officials regarding code interpretations. There can be as many different opinions on a code section as Doan's has pills. I have had coworkers with which I adamently agree with on one issue and vehemently disagree with on another, but the only one with the "right" answer is the person who has the title, Building Official. And that "right" answer is not necessarily "right" once you cross the county line. I respect your right, Mr. Peck, to have an different opinion than I do, but your's is not necessarily the "right" one!

    As a building official I can only enforce the code, not common sense. My authority comes from the County Board of Supervisors, and only extends to the ordinances and codes that are adopted by that body. Many designs come through my office which meet the code but may not make sense. My job is to make sure that the designs meet the base line code, not that they are practical or "good" designs.

    In this case, a landing is not required at the top of the stairway, so it can be argued that no landing exists, especially if the headroom for a landing does not exist. There doesn't need to be a doorway for there to be the lack of a landing, although that is a common reason. It is somewhat circular reasoning, but since no landing exists the headroom requirement does not exist. As I stated before, it is a bad design and someone will crack their head open on it, but I believe that it may just meet the WORDING of the code. And apparently, if a permit was issued for the construction of this situation, so does the Building Official for the jurisdiction in which it was constructed, which makes it the "right" answer!


    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Thom, as a POI, how do Muni's in your area generally handle compliance with new homebuyers who have bought an un-Permitted major rehab from a flipper?

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Huggett View Post
    As a building official I can only enforce the code, not common sense.
    As a Plans Examiner and Multi-discipline Inspector I only enforce the code ... and I try to apply it with common sense while not having the authority to enforce common sense.

    There are two types of building officials, and you seem to be intermixing them, so I do not know when one type starts with you and when that type ends and the other type starts:
    - a building official
    - THE building official

    My authority comes from the County Board of Supervisors, and only extends to the ordinances and codes that are adopted by that body.
    My authority comes from the State of Florida and the AHJ I work for (county/city/etc) and extends to the codes as adopted by the State of Florida and local applicable ordinances adopted by the political subdivision the AHJ is in.

    Many designs come through my office which meet the code but may not make sense. My job is to make sure that the designs meet the base line code, not that they are practical or "good" designs.
    That is the job of any code person - the authority given to them is limited to enforcing the codes, it does not include coming up with some off-the-wall interpretation which is easily shot down.

    In this case, a landing is not required at the top of the stairway, so it can be argued that no landing exists, ...
    One could make that argument IF there was a wall or a door there as then there would not be a landing there, and (you are correct) the code does not require a landing there - however - THERE IS a landing there, required or not, it IS provided, and as such that landing needs to meet the requirements for a landing ... because IT IS a landing.

    There doesn't need to be a doorway for there to be the lack of a landing, although that is a common reason.
    You are correct, there could be a wall there (as dumb as that sounds, the code does not prohibit that), and if there was a wall there (or a door there), then there would not be a landing there - BUT THERE IS a landing there.

    It is somewhat circular reasoning, but since no landing exists ...
    A landing DOES exist, and just like any other landing which is not required but is provided, the landing needs to meet the requirements for landings.

    It really is that simple.

    Now, to change the perspective on that photo, IF the slope ceiling went all the way to the floor at the uppermost riser, then no landing would be present. HOWEVER - that would be a code violation as the headroom above the stairway would not be met. The only way to meet the headroom for the stair and not have a landing there is for that sloped ceiling to become a vertical wall and that wall be placed at the uppermost riser - *viola* - NO LANDING.

    Sure, the stairway would be useless as it would not go anywhere, but that is how to *not have a landing*. One could install a door in that wall and no landing would be required on the stairway side of the door (of course, though, there would be a floor on the other side of the door).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    "Thom Huggett, CE, SE, CBO"

    Thom,

    While I am not a CE (Civil Engineer?), a SE (Structural Engineer?), or a CBO (Certified Building Official - I have not bothered to take the test for that), I am the following:

    - Florida Standard Plans Examiner PX3250
    - - Building Plans Examiner (non-residential and residential)

    - Florida Standard 1&2 Family Plans Examiner SFP232
    - - 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Plan Examiner (1&2 Family Dwellings for all disciplines)

    - Florida Standard Inspector BN3269
    - - Building Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Mechanical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Plumbing Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Electrical Inspector, Commercial
    - - Electrical Inspector, Residential
    - - 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Inspector (1&2 Family Dwellings for all disciplines)
    - - Coastal Construction Inspector

    - Florida General Contractor CGC1504241
    - Florida Building Contractor CBC 047612

    - International Code Council Plans Examiner 5145074-B3
    - - Building Plans Examiner (non-residential and residential)

    - International Code Council Combination Inspector 5181942-C8
    - - Building Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Building Inspector, Residential
    - - Mechanical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Mechanical Inspector, Residential
    - - Plumbing Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Plumbing Inspector, Residential
    - - Electrical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Electrical Inspector, Commercial
    - - Electrical Inspector, Residential
    - - Coastal and Flood Plain Construction Inspector

    (I think I include all of them.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Thom, as a POI, how do Muni's in your area generally handle compliance with new homebuyers who have bought an un-Permitted major rehab from a flipper?
    We treat it as if the work had not been done, so the work must be brought up to current code compliance. California now has strong real estate disclosure laws, which has homebuyers requesting building permit records on homes they want to buy to make sure all work done is permitted.

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Headroom Clearance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "Thom Huggett, CE, SE, CBO"

    Thom,

    While I am not a CE (Civil Engineer?), a SE (Structural Engineer?), or a CBO (Certified Building Official - I have not bothered to take the test for that), I am the following:

    - Florida Standard Plans Examiner PX3250
    - - Building Plans Examiner (non-residential and residential)

    - Florida Standard 1&2 Family Plans Examiner SFP232
    - - 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Plan Examiner (1&2 Family Dwellings for all disciplines)

    - Florida Standard Inspector BN3269
    - - Building Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Mechanical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Plumbing Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Electrical Inspector, Commercial
    - - Electrical Inspector, Residential
    - - 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Inspector (1&2 Family Dwellings for all disciplines)
    - - Coastal Construction Inspector

    - Florida General Contractor CGC1504241
    - Florida Building Contractor CBC 047612

    - International Code Council Plans Examiner 5145074-B3
    - - Building Plans Examiner (non-residential and residential)

    - International Code Council Combination Inspector 5181942-C8
    - - Building Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Building Inspector, Residential
    - - Mechanical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Mechanical Inspector, Residential
    - - Plumbing Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Plumbing Inspector, Residential
    - - Electrical Inspector (non-residential and residential)
    - - Electrical Inspector, Commercial
    - - Electrical Inspector, Residential
    - - Coastal and Flood Plain Construction Inspector

    (I think I include all of them.)
    It must cost you a fortune to pay for all the renewals on those certs!

    By the way, Jerry, I would definitely ask for 6'-8" ceiling height for 36" of landing. I have builders and architects arguing points like this with me all the time. I just wanted to play devil's advocate and add another perspective to the discussion.

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

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