Thread: LP subflooring

One year old home. All of the first floor subflooring says this side up which would indicate it is all backwards. Could not get any info from LP website. Besides not being installed per manufacturer is there any negative effects?

They still screwed it up, even with Spanish directions as well!

Structurally there is no problem, they label the sheets so the tongue and groove line up correctly, if it is T&G sheeting, the labels just make it easy to know they have all the same sides up for alignment. They might of nailed the first couple sheets and realized they were flipped, so instead of pulling them up they kept them all face down.

Originally Posted by Richard Roshak

One year old home. All of the first floor subflooring says this side up which would indicate it is all backwards. Could not get any info from LP website. Besides not being installed per manufacturer is there any negative effects?

make sure client is aware improper OSB sub-floor installation may void floor finishing materials warranty if any problems arise...warranty folks will look for any excuse to not pay a claim

further here: http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el813.pdf

Originally Posted by Richard Roshak

One year old home. All of the first floor subflooring says this side up which would indicate it is all backwards. Could not get any info from LP website. Besides not being installed per manufacturer is there any negative effects?

The material use here is Top Notch 350 series.

Link here;

LP® OSB Products with SmartGuard® | LP® TopNotch® 350 Premium OSB Sub-Flooring with SmartGuard®

Installation instructions are to the right of that link.

http://lpcorp.com/Resources/Literatu...tions_English/

Originally Posted by Richard Roshak

One year old home. All of the first floor subflooring says this side up which would indicate it is all backwards. Could not get any info from LP website. Besides not being installed per manufacturer is there any negative effects?

"Panels must be installed with APA trademark stamp facing down." At the very least you need to disclose.

• Features vertical RainChannel
TM notches in the tongue profile
that allow water to quickly drain from the sub-floor during
construction. Also features panel end RainChannel notches that
allow trapped water to drain from floor joists.

The upside down installation would appear to prevent the water draining features from functioning. The consequences would likely be the damage of panels if exposed to excessive water during construction or other events.

Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch

Structurally there is no problem, they label the sheets so the tongue and groove line up correctly, if it is T&G sheeting, the labels just make it easy to know they have all the same sides up for alignment. They might of nailed the first couple sheets and realized they were flipped, so instead of pulling them up they kept them all face down.

Well, I do not agree with this advice... As a few others have noted this product has specific features that require it to be installed as indicated by LP..... This product has a special draining feature to move water out of the tongue and groove channel it also has a smoother top surface to ease in flooring instalation.

Why not send LP an email and the photo, asking them their opinion and stand on the installation upside down?

Seems that their (LP) position on that installation would answer a lot of questions and solve a lot on consternation about what to do?

That is what I used to do - except that I would call the manufacturer from the field and ask, and then follow up with a photo to them and their response back. The phone call gave me the answer (usually did) right then and the email provided back-up documentation I could provide with the report.

Heck, with the smart phones of today, cameras in the phones, and email to and from the phones, I would now be able to both call, then take a photo and send it to them ... all from the field. Cool.

(added with edit)
I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 2 phone, I can do all that stuff now - and I do it now for my code inspections.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Well, I do not agree with this advice... As a few others have noted this product has specific features that require it to be installed as indicated by LP..... This product has a special draining feature to move water out of the tongue and groove channel it also has a smoother top surface to ease in flooring instalation.

Well, having been down this road before, it's fine, and structurally it does not make a difference.

The issue you might have is during construction (rain) as the notches on the panel ends that meet on the joist will not allow water to drain that enter between the panel ends, as they are face up. The water will still drain between the T&G ends, but then, it’s still not an issue, you just need to let the OSB dry out properly before installing coverings, not all OSB have this notch. There might be an issue depending on what covering you install on top as you might have to fill the notches, wood floors or a thick pad with carpet, no worries there, install away.

Yup, like Jerry commented, I have talked to LP about this before, and other manufacturers of OSB for the same reason, and no one had an issue with the panels being upside-down. Also, I have yet to see OSB be installed per instructions, that 1/8 inch gap on all edges, never seen it happen. They butt the OSB up tight on panel ends and use the good old sledge to hit the T&G together...

I used to flip my triangle cuts on roofs (many years ago) to save on material (the going green movement) after the manufacturer said it was fine to do this... to save the planet and trees...

Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch

Well, having been down this road before, it's fine, and structurally it does not make a difference.

The issue you might have is during construction (rain) as the notches on the panel ends that meet on the joist will not allow water to drain that enter between the panel ends, as they are face up. The water will still drain between the T&G ends, but then, it’s still not an issue, you just need to let the OSB dry out properly before installing coverings, not all OSB have this notch. There might be an issue depending on what covering you install on top as you might have to fill the notches, wood floors or a thick pad with carpet, no worries there, install away.

Yup, like Jerry commented, I have talked to LP about this before, and other manufacturers of OSB for the same reason, and no one had an issue with the panels being upside-down. Also, I have yet to see OSB be installed per instructions, that 1/8 inch gap on all edges, never seen it happen. They butt the OSB up tight on panel ends and use the good old sledge to hit the T&G together...

I used to flip my triangle cuts on roofs (many years ago) to save on material (the going green movement) after the manufacturer said it was fine to do this... to save the planet and trees...

I wonder if LP thinks it a non-issue to install it other than how they say it should be installed? Something tells me that they would not waste the ink, time and cost in printing which side is up if it didn't.

Can you cite anything that says it is OK to deviate from what the manufacturer requires?

We don't need to be telling folks it is "Structurally" OK even if it is not installed properly. This is how home inspector folklore starts and ends up getting folks into trouble down the road. This is akin to when builders or contractors say that they have been doing it this way for years, even though it is wrong.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

This is akin to when builders or contractors say that they have been doing it this way for years, even though it is wrong.

I just ran across that today with a door installer who is installing doors in an apartment complex - measured the anchor locations incorrectly and said he has been measuring that way for 15 years - I told him he has been measuring wrong for 15 years and to add anchors where they are missing.

He asked what would it take pass these doors ... ummm ... I told him to add the missing anchors to the 52 doors he has already installed and make sure he measures the anchor locations correctly from now on ... otherwise he will be adding additional anchors to the other 500+ doors he will be installing. That seemed to be a no-brainer to me - if it is wrong, and you know what is wrong because you were shown the installation instructions, is there really any need to ask what you need to do to correct the installation??

Well, maybe ... "further investigation" might have sufficed.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I wonder if LP thinks it a non-issue to install it other than how they say it should be installed? Something tells me that they would not waste the ink, time and cost in printing which side is up if it didn't.

Can you cite anything that says it is OK to deviate from what the manufacturer requires?

We don't need to be telling folks it is "Structurally" OK even if it is not installed properly. This is how home inspector folklore starts and ends up getting folks into trouble down the road. This is akin to when builders or contractors say that they have been doing it this way for years, even though it is wrong.

I can cite the manufacturer saying I can deviate from their instructions.

Maybe I'm not clear enough, but it was tech support from the manufacturer (LP) that said it was not a problem for the OSB to be upside-down, not me.

In the case of the LP 350 product the issue was the notches on the panel ends would be up and serve no purpose for water drainage, but the water would still drain through the T&G, but they want you to install it notch side down to help with drainage, after all, it is a selling point for the product, but not a necessity. Structurally, the OSB is just as strong face up or down.

I don't remember who the other manufacturer was, but they wanted all the sheets to face the same direction to ensure the fit of the T&G, but it wasn't an issue if they were all upside-down. In this case, if one sheet was up and another down the T&G might not align right or allow the OSB to sit tight to the joists causing potential squeak issues, humps in the floor, or improper spacing. I'm guessing this would be true for the LP product too, since I'm not sure the T&G is dead center.

Mike,

You can "cite" the manufacturer or you can provide "supporting documentation" to back you up when you say it is okay installed downside up (upside down)?

Having written documentation is key - just not sure whichyyou were meaning.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Mike,

You can "cite" the manufacturer or you can provide "supporting documentation" to back you up when you say it is okay installed downside up (upside down)?

Having written documentation is key - just not sure whichyyou were meaning.

My understanding of "cite" is to refer to, or quote. Just a call to LP and their verbal response that is was fine, nothing written.

I have a little time today, and will shoot an email to LP with the photo and see what I get back in response.

Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch

My understanding of "cite" is to refer to, or quote. Just a call to LP and their verbal response that is was fine, nothing written.

I have a little time today, and will shoot an email to LP with the photo and see what I get back in response.

I 'never' (never say 'never' because there are always exceptions) go with what I am told on the phone because the next person you talk to there may say something quite different - that said, though, I have and still do go with what I am told on the phone when I will be getting the backup documentation via email. I do that quite often - I write 'Approved with exceptions' or 'Approved with conditions', then state the exception/condition, such as 'conditional upon receipt of signed and sealed engineer's letter'.

When I am asked 'what if the signed and sealed engineer's letter never arrives?' - if the letter never arrives the inspection approval condition is not met, that means the inspection is 'not approved' and you really do not want to go there after the work has been completed because that may very well lead to having to remove a lot of finished work so you can rebuild the non-approved work.

My point is well made and is taken to heart as they don't want to have to de-construct something just to get to re-construct it correctly.

I agree with getting documentation and do it all the time. Like I said, I went down this road before with OSB and never had a problem.

I'm guessing the ink cost would be twice as much to label the unprinted side "Other Side Up"

Anyway, I got a response from LP, I love companies that respond fast, here's the letter:


Date 01/08/2014


Re: Up Side Down TN


To Whom It May Concern:

All LP OSB TopNotch flooring panels are manufactured with a self-draining notch system to reduce standing water during construction, and to the strict structural requirements as set forth by the American Plywood Association. Every LP panel is stamped with the APA certification specifying panel grade, span rating, exposure durability classification, thickness, product standard, and mill number on the back side of the panels.

If these flooring panels are installed with the APA stamp up while in compliance with all other applicable building codes, the panels will continue to perform identical to any APA rated structural flooring. Other than losing the benefits of the self-draining notches, there are no structural adverse effects in installing the panel with the APA stamp up.

All of these panels will comply with the structural requirements for your flooring system and are fully covered by our TopNotch Limited Warranty. This warranty provides that all LP panels will meet or exceed all manufacturing standards under the US Product Standard PS2-92 and perform as a structural sheathing floor panel.

LP is committed to delivering quality products to our customers. We appreciate your selection of our building products and will continue to work to support your building needs. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call our Warranty Technical Service Office at 800-642-7881.


Sincerely,

Dan Dugger
Warranty and Technical Supervisor

They are referring to 'stamp up' as being upside down - those are 'stamp down' and are ups down.

The letter still addresses upside down.