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Thread: Landings or not

  1. #1
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    Default Landings or not

    In R 311.7.6 The last sentence speaks of a landing on a straight run of 36".
    The exception says a landing is not needed.

    R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor
    or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The
    minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel
    shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings
    of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be
    permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total
    area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius
    equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway
    has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of
    travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).


    Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top
    of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an
    enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over
    the stairs.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    If there is no door swinging over the stairs, the entire floor in effect becomes the landing. Wouldn't it?

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    All stairs are required to have a landing at the top and bottom of the stairs (and intermediate landings at top and bottom of flights of stairs).

    The width of the landing is required to be the width of the stairs and the depth (length) of the landing is required to be the width of the stair except that for straight stairs the depth of the landing does not need to be greater than 36" (a 36" wide stair requires a landing which is 36" width by 36" depth but a 48" wide stair only requires a landing which is 48" wide by 36" deep).

    For an interior stair, the floor of the second floor can serve as the landing and the floor of the first floor can serve as the landing. The exception is stating that, for an interior stair, the upper level floor can still serve as a landing even if it is closed off with a door ... as long as the door does not swing overs the stair or landing (a landing is part of the stair).

    This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom, the exception applies only to interior stairs.

    Garage stairs are not considered to be interior stairs even in enclosed garages, that exception is specifically including stairs in enclosed garages in the exception. The typical stair from a garage into the house is a one-step stair with no landing and the door to the house is in-line with the wall separating the house from the garage. Without that exception the door into the house would require either a landing on the garage side or a recess into the house area to provided the required landing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    I some states with homes on a crawl space, the stairs in the garage are considered interior stairs and may have 4 or more risers. A landing is not required at the top of the stairs as long as the solid core door or 20 min. door does not swing out over the stairs, but swings inward toward the home, just like a an interior stairway.
    Also, a stairway with a vertical rise of more than 12 feet requires an intermediate landing.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Burkard View Post
    I some states with homes on a crawl space, the stairs in the garage are considered interior stairs and may have 4 or more risers.
    Exterior stairs are also allowed to have 4 or more risers, not sure what that has to do with being interior stairs.

    The interior of the house is within the thermal envelope, and garages are outside that thermal envelope (but may be within their own thermal envelope).

    The codes address the stairs which are allowed to not have a separate landing at the top of the stairs (provided the door does not swing out over the stairs) and the floor inside that door serves as the landing ... the codes also allow the stairs in enclosed garages to be the same (no landing at the top of the stairs as long as the door does not swing out over the stairs and the floor inside that door serves as the landing). That does not, however, make the enclosed garage stairs interior stairs.

    A landing is not required at the top of the stairs as long as the solid core door or 20 min. door does not swing out over the stairs, but swings inward toward the home, just like a an interior stairway.
    I believe you are mixing code sections up as the door being a solid core door or a 20 minute rated door has nothing to do with not requiring a landing at the top of the stairs.

    ANY, EVERY, door which opens between the garage and the house are required to meet the requirements for doors between the garage and the house - whether or not there is a stair and whether or not there is a landing at the top of the stairs.

    Also, a stairway with a vertical rise of more than 12 feet requires an intermediate landing.
    There are also a lot more requirements for stairs than just that 12 feet between landings (but that landing is not required to be an intermediate landing), however, the 12 feet rise limitation does not apply to the discussion (unless the garage floor to the house floor has a 12 foot difference).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    This thread contains absolutes that are not entirely true.

    R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors.
    Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided
    with landings or floors not more than 73/4 inches
    (196 mm) below the top of the threshold.
    Exception: A landing is not required where a stairway
    of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of
    the door, provided the door does not swing over the
    stairway.



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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    This thread contains absolutes that are not entirely true.
    Would be helpful to know what you are referring to - we are referring to exterior door which is not the required egress door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom,
    Someone reading this could be led astray.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Beware of the site troll.
    "Would be helpful to know what you are referring to"


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    Someone reading this could be led astray.
    ???

    Astray as to what?

    You keep leaving out what you are referring to ... is this a 3 guesses test?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck;
    we are referring to exterior door which is not the required egress door.
    I missed that part. Where would I find that?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    David,

    I guess I am the one who got mixed up when you posted that code quote about exterior doors and then you stated that the thread contains absolutes that are not entirely true - to which I replied we are referring to exterior door which is not the required egress door ...

    Your code quote did not apply to the thread at hand, but it did apply to another quite similar thread about stairs and landings at exterior doors - so I replied to you post as though it was referring to that thread ... my error as I should have asked you what you were referring to with your post about exterior doors as it related to interior stairs - see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    I missed that part. Where would I find that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Would be helpful to know what you are referring to - we are referring to exterior door which is not the required egress door.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    This thread contains absolutes that are not entirely true.

    R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors.
    Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided
    with landings or floors not more than 73/4 inches
    (196 mm) below the top of the threshold.
    Exception: A landing is not required where a stairway
    of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of
    the door, provided the door does not swing over the
    stairway.
    Soo ... to start this over ... Why did you post that code quote about exterior doors when the thread was about interior stairs?

    From there we should be able to get our comments back on the right track and on the topic in this thread ... now that I understand where things went awry ... with the topic of this thread being about interior stairs, not exterior stairs.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Jerry,
    The thread is not about exterior doors. The first mention of exterior doors was when you stated:

    "This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom, the exception applies only to interior stairs."

    As you know, that is not entirely true.

    For those that wouldn't know, I posted the exception that applies to stairs at exterior doors other than the required egress door.

    Okay the doors came in the back door.

    Last edited by David Bertrams; 04-01-2014 at 08:18 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    Jerry,
    The thread is not about exterior doors. The first mention of exterior doors was when you stated:

    "This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom, the exception applies only to interior stairs."

    As you know, that is not entirely true.

    For those that wouldn't know, I posted the exception that applies to stairs at exterior doors other than the required egress door.

    Okay the doors came in the back door.
    David,

    As you know, the above is not entirely true.

    The discussion and code references were about, and for, interior stairs and landings.

    The first reference to "exterior" was your post and the reference to code addressing exterior stairs and exterior landings.

    Everything posted about and for interior stairs prior to you introducing "exterior" into the discussion was, and still is, entirety correct regarding the discussion.

    If the discussion had been about "daytime" and you introduce "nighttime" into the discussion, introducing "nighttime" related facts does not make any previous "daytime" fact incorrect or make it 'not entirely correct'.

    The facts and code references remain entirely correct for the discussion.

    Neither the facts and code references I posted for interior stairs and landings, nor any facts and code references you posted for exterior stairs and landings are made incorrect or not entirely correct when bringing space launch pad structures or historical structures into the discussion.

    For those who may not know (although I am sure all do know) the code references provided for a topic of discussion are applicable to that topic (such as interior stairs and landings) and may not be applicable to another topic (such as exterior stairs and landings) - that is something I presume readers here know ... it seems others presume that readers here do not know that.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-01-2014 at 01:55 PM. Reason: first for speelin'; then to change location of " you posted" in sentence to have it read better
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Tp correct myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    David,
    .
    .
    The first reference to "exterior" was your post and the reference to code addressing exterior stairs and exterior landings.
    The first use of the word "exterior" was used by me in response to the post below (see my post below it), but I was not bringing "exterior stairs" into the discussion, just pointing out that "interior" stairs are not the only stairs which are allowed to have more than 4 risers, and that garage stairs are not "interior" stairs - which is why the code addresses them as: (bold is mine to show that garage stairs are not included in the code under the term "interior" stairs, garage stairs ("enclosed" garage stairs, that is) are included in the exception for interior stairs, but are not considered interior stairs - otherwise there would not be any need to include garage stairs because - if garage stairs were "interior" stairs, garage stairs would be included by virtue of being "interior" stairs, however, as they are not interior stairs, the exception includes them separately)
    - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Burkard View Post
    I some states with homes on a crawl space, the stairs in the garage are considered interior stairs and may have 4 or more risers.
    My post below was addressing a perceived limitation of stairs not being allowed to have more than 4 risers. The post above addressed that to "interior" stairs, my post below addressed that to include "exterior" stairs on not being limited either (garage stairs are not "interior" stairs).

    (bold is mine to show the first use of "exterior" in this thread)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Exterior stairs are also allowed to have 4 or more risers, not sure what that has to do with being interior stairs.
    Hopefully that will clear it up for David.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Hopefully that will clear it up for David.
    You've said a lot but miss the point.

    Do you recall saying this?
    This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom, the exception applies only to interior stairs.

    That stops short of the truth. Certainly the neophytes that happen across this site wouldn't know any better.

    My mistake was in pointing that out..... with the rest of the story.
    For that I have been called a troll and you have turned into a Watson clone.

    Do yourself a favor and recognize that you are wrong. In the long run, that would enhance your standing with the group of your peers that frequent this forum.
    A person that can't be wrong is continually suspect in the minds of the people that can.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    For an interior stair, the floor of the second floor can serve as the landing and the floor of the first floor can serve as the landing. The exception is stating that, for an interior stair, the upper level floor can still serve as a landing even if it is closed off with a door ... as long as the door does not swing overs the stair or landing (a landing is part of the stair).

    This is not permitted for an exterior stair - the exterior stair must have a landing at top and bottom, the exception applies only to interior stairs.

    Garage stairs are not considered to be interior stairs even in enclosed garages, that exception is specifically including stairs in enclosed garages in the exception. The typical stair from a garage into the house is a one-step stair with no landing and the door to the house is in-line with the wall separating the house from the garage. Without that exception the door into the house would require either a landing on the garage side or a recess into the house area to provided the required landing.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    You've said a lot but miss the point.
    David,

    Yes, I did miss your point, probably because the point of the discussion was interior stairs and stairs are enclosed garages which are not interior stairs (they are exterior stairs) but are included with the requirements for interior stairs when in enclosed garages - thus you missed my point.

    Back to me missing your point - as I said, yes I did miss your point as I should have included the exception for exterior stairs which were not part of the discussion as the exterior stairs in an enclosed garage are not addressed as exterior stairs in the respect in which we were discussing them ... nonetheless, though, *I* *did* use the term "exterior stairs" and therefore *I* *should have* also addressed all exterior stairs, not just exterior stairs in enclosed garages - that was your point and I DID miss it.

    Exterior stairs not in enclosed garages have their own exception separate from exterior stairs in enclosed garages - and that exception does not require a landing at the top of the stairs when:
    - R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors. Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided with landings or floors not more than 7 3/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold.
    - Exception: A landing is not required where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of the door, provided the door does not swing over the stairway.

    Yes, Sir, I did miss your point - I believe your point was that as stated above, was it not?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Landings or not

    Jerry,

    That pretty much sums it up....problem solved.

    Thanks,
    David


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