Thread: Closet, Myth or not

I have heard that a bedroom is REQUIRED to have a closet, however I can not find a requirement in the 2006 IRC. Can someone confirm or deni if a required to have a bedroom closet exist?

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I've had realtors tell clients that if a room does not have a closet it does not qualify for a bedroom per FHA- VA standards.

I do know of one home I inspected a few months ago that had been constructed with a "office" room. The owners of this home tried to pass off the house as a 4 bedroom instead of the actual description of a 3 bedroom when they bought it. The office room did not have a clothes closet.

They got called out on it and had to change all of the information on MLS for it.

rick

Yes, it needs a closet. This is a HUD requirement that also goes in to appraisal guidelines.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Yes, it needs a closet. This is a HUD requirement that also goes in to appraisal guidelines.

Scott, do you have that HUD requirement or a link to it?

Thanks.

If HUD requires a closet for a room to be considered a bedroom does that mean definitively that a bedroom requires a closet?

If that's the case then there are a lot of 5 den, zero bedroom homes out there.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Scott, do you have that HUD requirement or a link to it?

Thanks.

Good question! This is came from a HUD class I took many years back, I'll try to see if I can find it this weekend. Sorry, I just do not have the time to search for it right now.

I have not seen any code or definition that requires a room for sleeping (bedroom) to have a built-in closet.

I've inspected many older homes that have bedrooms without fixed studded and door wall closets. They use free standing wardrobe closets for storage.

If someone finds a code that requires a bedroom to have a closet, can you tell me how big it has to be and if it requires a door, and what is the minimum size of the door opening? does it require a light? Is the area of the closet considered part of the bedroom minimum size requirement? -- HELLO! LOL.

A sleeping room requires 2 means of egress. Could be 2 doors. If only 1 door, then an openable window meeting minimum opening requirements should be present.

A room with a closet, but no window, is not necessarily a bedroom. It could be a bedroom if it meets other criteria for use as a sleeping room.
There is something about natural light - can't think of it right now. Could be a skylight instead of a conventional window.

The current FHA appraisal handbook does not list a closet as a requirement:

http://www.fha.gov/reference/4150-2.doc

I do not know of any requirement, pertaining to the home inspection side of it, that would qualify us to state a room cannot be used for sleeping purposes due to the lack of a closet.
Can a closet, or lack therof, in a bedroom change the habitable space of the property? That depends on your local tax assessor's and appraisers guildlines I would think however that is out of the scope of our inspection. As far as I know our duties to our clients do not include determining the user square footage of the property therefore our concern over a closet is probably mute.
The IRC does address certain requirements regarding minimum size, natural lighting, outlets, cieling height, egress windows etc., but not closets. Does that help?

Michael found it! I was wrong.

A bedroom (sleeping room) does not need a closet, but it does need to points of egress. This was a FHA lending requirement, but it was removed in 1993.

The simple version:
A sleeping room, aka bedroom, requires the following: A source of natural light (8% of the floor area) a minimum of which 50% shall be openable, a minimum horizontal dimension of 7 ft, a minimum ceiling height of 7'-6", code complying means of emergency egress, a source of permanent heat, and a smoke alarm.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

The simple version:
A sleeping room, aka bedroom, requires the following: A source of natural light (8% of the floor area) a minimum of which 50% shall be openable, a minimum horizontal dimension of 7 ft, a minimum ceiling height of 7'-6", code complying means of emergency egress, a source of permanent heat, and a smoke alarm.

Slight modification to Jerry Mc's post:

This "A source of natural light (8% of the floor area) a minimum of which 50% shall be openable" should be this "A source of natural light (8% of the floor area), a source of natural ventilation (4% of the floor area)"

You may have a window which provides more than the minimum 8% of the floor area for natural light, in which case less than 50% of the window needs to be operable.

For bedrooms which use that operable window for an emergency egress opening, the resultant opening must be a minimum of 21" wide, minimum 24" high, and 5.7 sf (which means that the minimum width is not allowed in conjunction with the minimum height), and, if the window is directly accessible from grade (i.e., the firefighter can climb in from standing on the ground or pull someone out to safety from standing on the ground - no ladder) the minimum opening size may be reduced to 5.0 sf.

The natural light and natural ventilation % apply to *all* "habitable spaces", with provisions for obtaining them from adjacent rooms through open wall areas (doorways with no door, archways, whatever you want to call them).

Jerry P meant the minimum sized clear opening width on an emergency egress window is 20 inches, not 21.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Jerry P meant the minimum sized clear opening width on an emergency egress window is 20 inches, not 21.

I *used to* do that 21" instead of 20" all the time, I *thought* I had taught myself not to do that, but ... apparently ... I *am still* doing it.

Well, Adam and Jamie, I think we can call this myth:

BUSTED

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

The current FHA appraisal handbook does not list a closet as a requirement:

http://www.fha.gov/reference/4150-2.doc

New link is here:

http://portal.hud.gov/fha/reference/4150-2.doc

Seems I read somewhere that during Victorian times closets were taxed. As a result many Victorian homes did not have closets to avoid additional taxation. As a amories or wardrobes became popular furniture.

That sounds like the Mansard Roof story, but is just another well traveled myth?

It has been a policy in our AHJ that if a room has a closet we count it as a bedroom. However, no where in the code does it specify that a bedroom must have a closet.

If a room has a closet, we consider it a bedroom so we can require smoke detectors. If the plans for a new residence are submitted with rooms without closets, they specify that the room is going to be an office, study, or whatever. If they have a room without a closet, but they label it as a bedroom....that's ok, but they will provide SD's.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

It has been a policy in our AHJ that if a room has a closet we count it as a bedroom. However, no where in the code does it specify that a bedroom must have a closet.

If a room has a closet, we consider it a bedroom so we can require smoke detectors. If the plans for a new residence are submitted with rooms without closets, they specify that the room is going to be an office, study, or whatever. If they have a room without a closet, but they label it as a bedroom....that's ok, but they will provide SD's.

Wayne,

No doubt, too, is that the above also is there for requiring EERO and not just smoke detectors.

I built a new home home in 1995 with a den,no closet but it had a 48 inch space in the wall for our TV cabinet. The ADJ considered it a bedroom, he said the 48 inch opening could be converted into a closet. Despite my argument and the fact that it was in the front of the house with a very large window it was still considered a bedroom

Ah so Bill, some day when you go to sell your home the listing agent will put up a sticky-pad note at the entry door to that room and it will say, "can be used as a 4th bedroom" ..... even if it has no heat, no windows and the ceiling height is 4 ft 9 inches in height. Hey, but that's OK, it's got a SD on the ceiling.

In our area, the room is whatever they label it as on the plans that were used to obtain the permit. If they label it as a bedroom, they must have smokes, egress window, etc. If they label it as a study, then no smokes, window, etc. I disagree with the AHJ that says that if it has a closet, then it's a bedroom. ICC takes the stand that it's up to the designer to label the room on the plans for the purpose intended. However, the Certificate of Occupancy will designate how many bedrooms have been permitted, and it is a code violation to change the use of a room without a permit and a new C. of O.

R110.1 Use and occupancy. No building or structure shall be used or occupied, and no change in the existing occupancy classification of a building or structure or portion thereof shall be made until the building official has issued a certificate of occupancy therefor as provided herein.

Enforcing it is something else, though. If the hubby is made to sleep on the couch (or chooses to) does that make it a bedroom? Is he in violation of the C. of O. if he falls asleep at his office desk? Of course not, but the rooms that were designed and intended to be used as bedrooms must comply when the permit is issued and the hosue is constructed. After the c of o is issued, there's not much control over how the house is actually used.

Sooooo the designer could label a house as having no bedrooms and the AHJ couldn't do anything about it?

And we all know homeowners do everything by the code!!

Originally Posted by Steve Frederickson

and it is a code violation to change the use of a room without a permit and a new C. of O.

R110.1 Use and occupancy. No building or structure shall be used or occupied, and no change in the existing occupancy classification of a building or structure or portion thereof shall be made until the building official has issued a certificate of occupancy therefor as provided herein.

You do not understand what the code is referring to in the above use of "Use and occupancy".

It is NOT "a code violation to change the use of a room without a permit and a new C. of O." ... NOT a violation to do so.

JP,

I usually agree with you, but you are absolutely wrong on this one. I am an AHJ (27 years). I have served on several ICC (and prior to that, BOCA) committees, and I do code consulting for a living. If a space is designed for one purpose and then changed, you need a permit (even if there is no construction) and a new C.O. If a room is designed as a study, labelled on the drawings as a study, given a certificate of occupancy with the understanding that it is a study (because of the plans that were approved, designating it as a study), and then the space is subsequently changed to a bedroom, it then needs egress windows, smoke det., etc. That's the reason for a building permit..to make sure that the new use complies with the code. Does anyone ever do it? Rarely, in one and two-family construction, but it's still required. People put bedrooms in cellars without permits, too, and they also die in those same cellars because of the lack of an egress window.

And yes, you could have a house with ten studies and one bedroom, and that is fine. You have to have at least one room designated as a bedroom (the definition of a dwelling unit is that it has to have living, sleeping, bathing and cooking facilities).
<B>

"DWELLING UNIT. </B>

A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation."

I suppose that it really doesn't need a separate bedroom (for example, a studio apartment), but the living room would then be designated as a combination living/sleeping room and that room would need to meet the requirements for a bedroom.

Originally Posted by Steve Frederickson

JP,

I usually agree with you, but you are absolutely wrong on this one. I am an AHJ (27 years). I have served on several ICC (and prior to that, BOCA) committees, and I do code consulting for a living. If a space is designed for one purpose and then changed, you need a permit (even if there is no construction) and a new C.O. If a room is designed as a study, labelled on the drawings as a study, given a certificate of occupancy with the understanding that it is a study (because of the plans that were approved, designating it as a study), and then the space is subsequently changed to a bedroom, it then needs egress windows, smoke det., etc. That's the reason for a building permit..to make sure that the new use complies with the code. Does anyone ever do it? Rarely, in one and two-family construction, but it's still required. People put bedrooms in cellars without permits, too, and they also die in those same cellars because of the lack of an egress window.

And yes, you could have a house with ten studies and one bedroom, and that is fine. You have to have at least one room designated as a bedroom (the definition of a dwelling unit is that it has to have living, sleeping, bathing and cooking facilities).

<B>

"DWELLING UNIT. </B>

A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation."

I suppose that it really doesn't need a separate bedroom (for example, a studio apartment), but the living room would then be designated as a combination living/sleeping room and that room would need to meet the requirements for a bedroom.

Thanks Steve

You certainly kept me from one of my morning rants. I agree completely.

Armoire My little beach house had no closet...

Best

Ron

OK, I don't totally agree with the fact that if someone has a room that is not designated as a bedroom and they start using it as a bedroom that it is a change of use!

The use is R3 single family. A change of use would be if they wanted to change a residential use to a business use.

Yes I agree that they would need a permit when they start using a room not designated as a bedroom as a bedroom to comply with life, health, and safety regulations; however that is not a change of use.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

OK, I don't totally agree with the fact that if someone has a room that is not designated as a bedroom and they start using it as a bedroom that it is a change of use!

The use is R3 single family. A change of use would be if they wanted to change a residential use to a business use.

Wayne,

Exactly.

And that is what I am referring to.

Yes I agree that they would need a permit when they start using a room not designated as a bedroom as a bedroom to comply with life, health, and safety regulations; however that is not a change of use.

Incorrect.

They need a permit only if they do construction which would change that use.

If they have a den and begin using it as a bedroom, there is absolutely nothing in the code which requires a permit for that.

Steve,

Okay, as the AHJ SHOW ME THE CODE where changing the use of a room in a dwelling unit requires a permit.

I have a family room, if I change that use to a living room, no permit is required.

I have a dining room, if I change that use to a den, no permit is required.

I have a bedroom, if I change that use to an office, no permit is required.

Likewise, I have a den and if I change that use to a bedroom, no permit is required.

SHOW ME where the code states a permit is required when a room is changed from one use to another use.

And don't pull that same code section out which you have pulled out twice already as that DOES NOT apply to changing the use of a room to another use ... criminey, I can't believe an AHJ would even think that ...

That section is when you change the use and occupancy as covered by the code.

From the IRC. (bold and underlining is mine)
R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above-grade in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

When the "use and occupancy" changes from a "dwelling unit", the "use and occupancy" falls outside the IRC and then the IBC will apply.

From the IBC. (bold and underlining is mine)
- CHAPTER 3

- - USE AND OCCUPANCY CLASSIFICATION
- - - SECTION 301
- - - - GENERAL
- - - - - 301.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall control the classification of all buildings and structures as to use and occupancy.
- - - SECTION 302
- - - - CLASSIFICATION
- - - - - 302.1 General. Structures or portions of structures shall be classified with respect to occupancy in one or more of the groups listed below. A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied. Structures with multiple occupancies or uses shall comply with Section 508. Where a structure is proposed for a purpose that is not specifically provided for in this code, such structure shall be classified in the group that the occupancy most nearly resembles, according to the fire safety and relative hazard involved.
- - - - - - 1. Assembly (see Section 303): Groups A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4 and A-5
- - - - - - 2. Business (see Section 304): Group B
- - - - - - 3. Educational (see Section 305): Group E
- - - - - - 4. Factory and Industrial (see Section 306): Groups F-1 and F-2
- - - - - - 5. High Hazard (see Section 307): Groups H-1, H-2, H-3, H-4 and H-5
- - - - - - 6. Institutional (see Section 308): Groups I-1, I-2, I-3 and I-4
- - - - - - 7. Mercantile (see Section 309): Group M
- - - - - - 8. Residential (see Section 310): Groups R-1, R-2, R-3
and R-4
- - - - - - 9. Storage (see Section 311): Groups S-1 and S-2
- - - - - - 10. Utility and Miscellaneous (see Section 312): Group U

When the "use and occupancy" changes from a dwelling unit (Residential) it will fall under one of the above "Use and Occupancy" categories.

Quote:
Yes I agree that they would need a permit when they start using a room not designated as a bedroom as a bedroom to comply with life, health, and safety regulations; however that is not a change of use.

Incorrect.


I'm saying that they are required to secure a permit because of life, health, and safety regulations.

R101.3 Purpose.

The purpose of this code is to provide minimum
requirements to safeguard the public safety, health and
general welfare through affordability, structural strength,
means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, light and ventilation,
energy conservation and safety to life and property from
fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment.

If the occupant converts a room from a den to a bedroom, then a means of egress shall be provided as required by the code. If that means altering the windows and adding SD's, then a permit is required.

If the converted room already meets the code for life, health, and safety, then no permits are required.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Wayne,

Exactly.

And that is what I am referring to.



Incorrect.

They need a permit only if they do construction which would change that use.

If they have a den and begin using it as a bedroom, there is absolutely nothing in the code which requires a permit for that.

Steve,

Okay, as the AHJ SHOW ME THE CODE where changing the use of a room in a dwelling unit requires a permit.

I have a family room, if I change that use to a living room, no permit is required.

I have a dining room, if I change that use to a den, no permit is required.

I have a bedroom, if I change that use to an office, no permit is required.

Likewise, I have a den and if I change that use to a bedroom, no permit is required.

SHOW ME where the code states a permit is required when a room is changed from one use to another use.

And don't pull that same code section out which you have pulled out twice already as that DOES NOT apply to changing the use of a room to another use ... criminey, I can't believe an AHJ would even think that ...

That section is when you change the use and occupancy as covered by the code.

From the IRC. (bold and underlining is mine)
R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above-grade in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

When the "use and occupancy" changes from a "dwelling unit", the "use and occupancy" falls outside the IRC and then the IBC will apply.

From the IBC. (bold and underlining is mine)

- CHAPTER 3
- - USE AND OCCUPANCY CLASSIFICATION

- - -

SECTION 301

- - - - GENERAL

- - - - - 301.1 Scope.

The provisions of this chapter shall control the classification of all buildings and structures as to use and occupancy.

- - - SECTION 302
- - - - CLASSIFICATION
- - - - - 302.1 General.

Structures or portions of structures shall be classified with respect to occupancy in one or more of the groups listed below. A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied. Structures with multiple occupancies or uses shall comply with Section 508. Where a structure is proposed for a purpose that is not specifically provided for in this code, such structure shall be classified in the group that the occupancy most nearly resembles, according to the fire safety and relative hazard involved.

- - - - - - 1. Assembly (see Section 303): Groups A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4 and A-5
- - - - - - 2. Business (see Section 304): Group B
- - - - - - 3. Educational (see Section 305): Group E
- - - - - - 4. Factory and Industrial (see Section 306): Groups F-1 and F-2
- - - - - - 5. High Hazard (see Section 307): Groups H-1, H-2, H-3, H-4 and H-5
- - - - - - 6. Institutional (see Section 308): Groups I-1, I-2, I-3 and I-4
- - - - - - 7. Mercantile (see Section 309): Group M
- - - - - - 8. Residential (see Section 310): Groups R-1, R-2, R-3
and R-4
- - - - - - 9. Storage (see Section 311): Groups S-1 and S-2

- - - - - - 10. Utility and Miscellaneous (see Section 312): Group U

When the "use and occupancy" changes from a dwelling unit (Residential) it will fall under one of the above "Use and Occupancy" categories.

I am not sure why you do things sometimes Jerry.

How much would you like to wager that if someone started using a den with no proper egress, lighting, ventilation and someone sleeping in that room that has now been set up from a den to a bedroom died due to not properly turning it into a bedroom which very well may need a permit to do so could be prosecuted if the athorities chose to go that route.

Lets see. I have a three bedroom 2 bath home but the home has ten rooms altogether and I turn the rest of them into sleeping quarters and none of them comply with sleeping quarters and they all die.....what do you think the chances are that the athorities could press charges on the owners that decided to let all there friends use those rooms not properly set up for bedrooms as bedrooms/sleeping quarters. Lets say even the kitchen, but there is still room after the beds are added to still cook.

I think you get the point and know exactly the point that Steve was trying to and I thought, made

Can anyone use anyroom they decide to as sleeping quarters????

Sure, but must be willing to suffer the legal ramifications to do so. Which means they should have obtained a permit if those rooms were not already set up properly as bedrooms. Which means.....they should have gotten a permit because you know and I know that not all rooms are set up as sleeping quarters.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

I'm saying that they are required to secure a permit because of life, health, and safety regulations.

And I am saying "Show me the code section where that is required under permit requirements.

If the occupant converts a room from a den to a bedroom, then a means of egress shall be provided as required by the code. If that means altering the windows and adding SD's, then a permit is required.

"If that means altering the windows and adding SD's, then a permit is required."

Now you are getting where I want you and Steven to see: "If that means altering ... adding ..., then a permit is required."

And, being as there is NO REQUIREMENT TO PULL A PERMIT TO CHANGE THE USE OF THAT ROOM ... and THAT is what we are discussing ... pulling a permit TO CHANGE THE USE OF A ROOM ...

If the converted room already meets the code for life, health, and safety, then no permits are required.

BINGO!

And, being as there IS NOT PERMIT REQUIRED to change the use of a room, the only way the AHJ would know is when something was permitted because it was to be added or altered, and you really think a permit will even be pulled then?

Nope, rarely going to happen. A permit SHOULD be pulled when the smoke detector is added, but then a permit SHOULD be pulled every time an electrical contractor installs a NEW light or receptacle too.

What is under discussion, though, is not pulling a permit for adding or altering anything, but that a PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED for a home owner to change the use of a room from anything to anything else.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

I am not sure why you do things sometimes Jerry.

You will see below.

I think you get the point and know exactly the point that Steve was trying to and I thought, made

Can anyone use anyroom they decide to as sleeping quarters????

Sure, but must be willing to suffer the legal ramifications to do so. Which means they should have obtained a permit if those rooms were not already set up properly as bedrooms. Which means.....they should have gotten a permit because you know and I know that not all rooms are set up as sleeping quarters.

No, the point Steve was making, and stressing, was that A PERMIT IS REQUIRED ... allow that to soak in a minute ... Steve was, IS, insisting that A PERMIT IS REQUIRED ... to change a room from any use into a sleeping room, and NO PERMIT IS REQUIRED for that, nor to change ANY ROOM into use as ANY OTHER room.

It simply IS NOT REQUIRED.

Are there legal ramification which COULD (not will, but COULD) catch up to them? Sure.

Women are ALLOWED to put make up on while driving, there is no law against that (i.e., *no permit is required*), and they do that while driving for years and years and years and years and ... and then, finally, one day they cause an accident because they were putting their make up on while driving - they will suffer the legal ramification because of their actions ... NONETHELESS, though, there is not law against it (and nothing which requires a permit to change one room use to another use).

I keep waiting for Steve, Wayne, or even you to post the permits required section where it states that a permits is required to change the use of a room to another use ... and I will wait forever because there simply is not such requirement.

R104.1 General.

The building official is hereby authorized

and directed to enforce the provisions of this code.

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required.

Basements

and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency and rescue opening. Such opening shall open directly
into a public street, public alley, yard or court.

The BO is required to enforce the code. The code requires at least one operable emergency and rescue opening in a bedroom. If a homeowner starts using a den as a bedroom, that room is required to have emergency egress. If it doesn't have emergency egress, then alterations are required to comply with the code.

SECTION R105
PERMITS
R105.1 Required.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends

to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change
the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install,
enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical,
gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which
is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done,
shall first make application to the building official and obtain
the required permit.

As I stated earlier:

If the occupant converts a room from a den to a bedroom, then a means of egress shall be provided as required by the code. If that means altering the windows and adding SD's, then a permit is required.

If the converted room already meets the code for life, health, and safety, then no permits are required.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You will see below.



No, the point Steve was making, and stressing, was that A PERMIT IS REQUIRED ... allow that to soak in a minute ... Steve was, IS, insisting that A PERMIT IS REQUIRED ... to change a room from any use into a sleeping room, and NO PERMIT IS REQUIRED for that, nor to change ANY ROOM into use as ANY OTHER room.

It simply IS NOT REQUIRED.

Are there legal ramification which COULD (not will, but COULD) catch up to them? Sure.

Women are ALLOWED to put make up on while driving, there is no law against that (i.e., *no permit is required*), and they do that while driving for years and years and years and years and ... and then, finally, one day they cause an accident because they were putting their make up on while driving - they will suffer the legal ramification because of their actions ... NONETHELESS, though, there is not law against it (and nothing which requires a permit to change one room use to another use).

I keep waiting for Steve, Wayne, or even you to post the permits required section where it states that a permits is required to change the use of a room to another use ... and I will wait forever because there simply is not such requirement.

Jerry

If there are legal ramifications to doing something then it must mean it is not allowed. If not allowed without a permit and someone does it without a permit then they should have gotten a permit which means that a permit was needed. You can swing it anyway you want. If it is going to be used as a bedroom and it must be altered to do so then a permit is required if alteratiuons must be done to turn it into a bedroom.

If I shoot my neighbor between the eyes and do not get caught is it alright that I shot him between the eyes.

If I get falling down drunk (I would not) and then got behind a wheel of a car and proceeded to drive down the highway in the wrong direction and caused the death of 6 people and I did not get caught is it alright I did so. Or, should I have not done so to begin with.

You are saying anyone can use any room for any reason and the law has nothing to say about it...until they got caught. Well if they got caught then they should not have been doing what ever to get caught at ....Hence......a permit must be obtained if needed due to alterations.

Years ago with septic systems most homes were built to allow 3 bedrooms and 2 baths. Adding more bedrooms and more baths would mean you needed a bigger septic. To add more bedrooms and baths to a septic it requires a permit to add the bedrooms and baths and increase the size of the septic.

From what you are saying I am gathering that if those exact words are not all in that neat little order then it is not mandatory that a permit be pulled.

(red, blue, underlined text is my highlighting)

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

R104.1 General.

The building official is hereby authorized

and directed to enforce the provisions of this code.

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required.

Basements

and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency and rescue opening. Such opening shall open directly

into a public street, public alley, yard or court.

The BO is required to enforce the code. The code requires at least one operable emergency and rescue opening in a bedroom. If a homeowner starts using a den as a bedroom, that room is required to have emergency egress. If it doesn't have emergency egress, then alterations are required to comply with the code.

SECTION R105
PERMITS
R105.1 Required.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends

to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change

the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install,
enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical,
gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which
is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done,
shall first make application to the building official and obtain
the required permit.

As I stated earlier:

If the occupant converts a room from a den to a bedroom, then a means of egress shall be provided as required by the code. If that means altering the windows and adding SD's, then a permit is required.

If the converted room already meets the code for life, health, and safety, then no permits are required.

Wayne,

"R105.1 Required.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure"

The BUILDING OR STRUCTURE *is not* being "constructed", "enlarged", "altered"", "repaired", "moved", "demolished" in any way, shape or form.

The CONTENTS of the building or structure *is what is being moved about*.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that I have to get a permit from you to move my furniture from room to room so I can change the use of that room?

Seriously? Is that what you are MEANING? Because that IS what you are SAYING.

NOTHING which requires a permit is being done.

You will need to get a lot more creative than you have been so far to show us that we cannot move our furniture from room to room without getting a permit.

You and Steve have SERIOUSLY gone off the deep end on this one.

Have you, either of you, looked up the definition of "building" or "structure"?

If you are really believing in moving the furniture "changes the occupancy" of the "building or structure", then we will need to make that change meet the definition of "building" or "structure" and make some fire partitions separating the MIXED-OCCUPANCY use of that home.

You two (and Ted) need to stop, take a DEEP BREATH, hold it ... hold it ... hold it ... now slowly exhale and clear your minds of what you think you are saying and start looking at what you are really saying.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

R105.1 Required.
Any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of abuilding or structure"

The BUILDING OR STRUCTURE *is not* being "constructed", "enlarged", "altered"", "repaired", "moved", "demolished" in any way, shape or form.

The CONTENTS of the building or structure *is what is being moved about*.

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.....you are doing what you always say about other folks that post on here occasionally. You are not reading what I am posting. You are trying to turn this thing all around so that it sounds like you know what you are talking about! Sorry Buddy you're wrong on this one!

It's OK to move the contents around.......however once you move the contents around and create sleeping quarters then you MUST provide emergency egress and SD's. as required by the code. That in turn triggers the "to construct, enlarge, "ALTER" repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure" requirement!

The owner has to ALTER the room to meet the code! This in turn requires a permit.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"Seriously? Is that what you are MEANING? Because that IS what you are SAYING.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

NOTHING which requires a permit is being done.

I didn't say that at all! If you will go back and reread my post you will see that I said that creating a bedroom and the requirement for emergency egress and SD's requires the owner to alter the structure and THAT is what triggers the permit requirement, not rearranging furniture! You can move your dining room into the bathroom if you want. I don't care!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"You will need to get a lot more creative than you have been so far to show us that we cannot move our furniture from room to room without getting a permit..

US??????? When did one person become us???
I didn't say you couldn't move your furniture from room to room!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"Have you, either of you, looked up the definition of "building" or "structure"?

What has that got to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"If you are really believing in moving the furniture "changes the occupancy" of the "building or structure", then we will need to make that change meet the definition of "building" or "structure" and make some fire partitions separating the MIXED-OCCUPANCY use of that home.

I never said that moving furniture changes the occupancy.
I said that creating a bedroom in a room that does not have the emergency egress and SD's requires that person to alter the structure to comply with the code! Altering that structure creates the requirement for a permit!

Soooooo you are saying that when you visit your daughter and she has created a bedroom for your grandchildren without any means of emergency egress and SD's that you are going to say it is okay? You're not going to tell her that she needs to "alter" your grandchild’s bedroom so in case of emergency a person can save them?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"You two (and Ted) need to stop, take a DEEP BREATH, hold it ... hold it ... hold it ... now slowly exhale and clear your minds of what you think you are saying and start looking at what you are really saying.

I think that's the problem here with your train of thought! Except you have that funny stuff that makes you have the munchies in between your lips while you are taking a BIG BREATH!

Ohhhhh I get it now! That's why you are taking a trip to California....you've ran out of stash!!!

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Buddy you're wrong on this one!

Nope, you are and I will show it to you right below this.

It's OK to move the contents around.......however once you move the contents around and create sleeping quarters then you MUST provide emergency egress and SD's. as required by the code.

No one is disputing that.

That in turn triggers the "to construct, enlarge, "ALTER" repair, move, demolish or change the occupancy of a building or structure" requirement!

WHAT triggers that? Moving the furniture around?

The owner has to ALTER the room to meet the code!

Hmmmm .... who "The owner HAS TO alter ... " anything?

There you go, making statements for which NOTHING is being said about having to alter anything.

Try to follow these three scenarios, if you can, or, maybe, if you will (because I KNOW you CAN).

1) I have a den, which just happens to have a window which meets EERO size requirements, and it just happens to have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing.

2) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing.

Q. What SHOULD be done?
A. The window SHOULD be addressed to make sure it meets EERO size requirements and as smoke detector SHOULD be installed.

Q. Is a permit required at this point where I have moved a bed into that den and are now using it as a bedroom?
A. No. I have NOT ALTERED the "building or structure" at this point.

3) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom. Being a home owner with the knowledge that I SHOULD address the size of the window to meet EERO sizes, and knowing that I SHOULD add a smoke detector, I start to make the window meet those requirements and begin adding a smoke detector.

Q. Is a permit required because I am now altering the "BUILDING OR STRUCTURE"?
A. Yes, a permit is needed, not because I moved a bed into that room, and not because I SHOULD address the window and smoke detector, but BECAUSE *I AM* addressing the window and smoke detector.

See, if you knew how to read the code, you would see that I do not need to get a permit to construct a deck BECAUSE I AM THINKING ABOUT constructing a deck, no, I would need to get a permit BEFORE I ACTUALLY DID ANY WORK toward constructing that deck.

Permits are not required because work SHOULD be done, permits are required because the work IS BEING (or GOING TO BE) done.

Let me know if you STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND what I am saying.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Nope, you are and I will show it to you right below this.




No one is disputing that.



WHAT triggers that? Moving the furniture around?



Hmmmm .... who "The owner HAS TO alter ... " anything?

There you go, making statements for which NOTHING is being said about having to alter anything.

Try to follow these three scenarios, if you can, or, maybe, if you will (because I KNOW you CAN).

1) I have a den, which just happens to have a window which meets EERO size requirements, and it just happens to have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing.

2) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector,(OK) so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing. (YOU ARE KIDDING RIGHT???)

Q. What SHOULD be done?
A. The window SHOULD be addressed to make sure it meets EERO size requirements and as smoke detector SHOULD be installed.

Q. Is a permit required at this point where I have moved a bed into that den and are now using it as a bedroom?
A. No. I have NOT ALTERED the "building or structure" at this point.(OF COURSE NOT, YOU HAVE NOT PULLED A PERMIT YET)

3) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom. Being a home owner with the knowledge that I SHOULD address the size of the window to meet EERO sizes, and knowing that I SHOULD add a smoke detector, I start to make the window meet those requirements and begin adding a smoke detector.

(TWIST AND TURN, TWIST AND TURN)

Q. Is a permit required because I am now altering the "BUILDING OR STRUCTURE"?
A. Yes, a permit is needed, not because I moved a bed into that room, and not because I SHOULD address the window and smoke detector, but BECAUSE *I AM* addressing the window and smoke detector.

(TWIST AND TURN, TWIST AND TURN)

See, if you knew how to read the code, you would see that I do not need to get a permit to construct a deck BECAUSE I AM THINKING ABOUT constructing a deck, no, I would need to get a permit (TWIST AND TURN, TWIST AND TURN) BEFORE I ACTUALLY DID ANY WORK toward constructing that deck.

Permits are not required because work SHOULD be done, permits are required because the work IS BEING (or GOING TO BE) done.(SO, YOU NEED A FREAKING PERMIT....RIGHT)

(TWIST AND TURN, TWIST AND TURN)

Let me know if you STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND what I am saying.

What an absolute crock of crap. Yeah I said it . What an absolute crock of crap.

If you know that a permit is required because building alterations are going to have be done then you get a freaking permit or at least check down town on the phone or in person to find out if one is needed for the alterations you have to make.

You do not address alterations and start them and then go to the town hall and say that this is what I did could you come look at it.

You already used the terminology that you knew that alterations would have to be made. If alteration have to be made one with half a brain like yourself is going to address all the issues before one with half a brain moves everything in.

Twist an play with the words all you want but your explanation is only the art of deception with a play on words.

What constitutes HAVING to pull a permit.? Making changes in ones home to make a bedroom out of a den adding doors or windows or electric or HVAC etc. constitutes the need to get a permit to do so. Or as you stated, already knowing that items are going to have to be addressed, which constututes at the very least inquiring intpo a permit , if required for changes you are about to make.

Twist and turn, twist and turn, twist and turn.

You want to play with words and have a play with words.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

What an absolute crock of crap. Yeah I said it . What an absolute crock of crap.

I wholeheartedly agree that what you state below is "an absolute crock of crap".

It seems that YOU STILL are not reading what is written, Ted.

If you know that a permit is required because building alterations are going to have be done then you get a freaking permit or at least check down town on the phone or in person to find out if one is needed for the alterations you have to make.

You do not address alterations and start them and then go to the town hall and say that this is what I did could you come look at it.

Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted, ... (sigh)

And when you move that bed into that den AND DO NOT MAKE any alterations ... ?

Ted, wake up and read.

One DOES NOT NEED TO PULL A PERMIT BECAUSE THEY ARE *THINKING ABOUT WHAT IFS*.

THEY ONLY NEED TO PULL A PERMIT IF THE WORK IS GOING TO BE DONE.

GOT IT?

Y-o-u ... d-o ... n-o-t ... n-e-e-d ... a ... p-e-r-m-i-t ... t-o ... MOVE FURNITURE AROUND.

If you do ... SHOW ME IN THE CODE WHERE IT SAYS THAT.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I wholeheartedly agree that what you state below is "an absolute crock of crap".

It seems that YOU STILL are not reading what is written, Ted.



Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted, ... (sigh)

And when you move that bed into that den AND DO NOT MAKE any alterations ... ?

Ted, wake up and read.

One DOES NOT NEED TO PULL A PERMIT BECAUSE THEY ARE *THINKING ABOUT WHAT IFS*.

THEY ONLY NEED TO PULL A PERMIT IF THE WORK IS GOING TO BE DONE.

GOT IT?

Y-o-u ... d-o ... n-o-t ... n-e-e-d ... a ... p-e-r-m-i-t ... t-o ... MOVE FURNITURE AROUND.

If you do ... SHOW ME IN THE CODE WHERE IT SAYS THAT.

The discussions involving the talk with you, Wayne, me etc did not just pertain to the original post.

You need to wake freaking up and stop twisting everyones words around. We were all talking about CHANGING SOME REMOTE ROOM TO A BEDROOM AND IF IT NEEDED ALTERATION YOU NEED A PERMIT.

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE NOT READING WHAT IS WRITTEN. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STUCK ON JUST MOVING FURNITURE.

YOU ARE THE ONE TWISTING AND TURNING AND BY THE WAY RESORTING TO INSULTS LIKE WAKE THE FRIG UP AND SUCH.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE TECHNICALITIES YOU WILL SEE THAT MOVING FURNITURE AROUND TO PERMANENTLY CHANGE A NON COMPLIENT DEN INTO A BEDROOM YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY NEED A PERMIT. SO, YES YOU WILL NEED A PERMIT TO MOVE FURNITURE AROUND BECAUSE YOU ARE CHANGING A NON COMPLIENT ROOM INTO A BEDROOM. DID i REPEAT MYSELF ENOUGH YET?????

AS YOU SAID YOURSELF....YOU KNOW THE WINDOW AND EGRESS AND OR ELECTRIC AND OR SMOKE DETECTORS (WHATEVER) NEEDED CORRECTING/ADDRESSING AND DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF WORK YOU JUST MAY NEED A PERMIT.

THAT MY DEAR FRIEND IS WHAT THE WORLD IS TRYING TO CONVEY TO YOU. MOVING FURNITURE TO CHANGE A ROOM INTO A BEDROOM MAY VERY WELL NEED A PERMIT TO DO SO. BEFORE YOU DO THE WORK YOU MUST OBTAIN A PERMIT SO I GUESS A PERMIT IS REQUIRED AS YOU ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE MAKING CHANGES

GOT IT ????? GET IT ??? GOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR STATEMENT

"THEY ONLY NEED TO PULL A PERMIT IF THE WORK IS GOING TO BE DONE.

GOT IT?"

YEAH WE GOT IT......................DO YOU????????????????????

IF YOU NEED CHANGES YOU ARE PULLING A PERMIT DEPENDING ON WHAT CHANGES YOU HAVE TO MAKE THAT MAY REQUIRE A PERMIT IN YOUR AREA TO TURN IT INTO A BEDROOM.

GOT IT. YOU KEEP SAYING IT YOURSELF SO I GUESS YOU MUST GET IT....GOT IT????????????????????????

STOP BEING SO FREAKING STUBBORN.....GOT IT????

I have to weigh in here again, because you need a permit not only for alterations, but you need a permit for a change in use or occupancy, even if no construction is being done.

To go to the extreme, if you decide to change a house into a nightclub, but make no alterations (you just start taking tickets at the door, hiring a band, etc), then you need a building permit for the change in use. The change will likely also require alterations to comply with the code, but in the unlikely case that no alterations are required, you still need a building permit and you still need a new certificate of occupancy, which states on it the allowed use, occupant load, etc.. That's the only way that the AHJ can confirm that the building (or portion thereof) complies with the code as it applies to the new use/occupancy. That's basic building code 101.

Originally Posted by Steve Frederickson

I have to weigh in here again, because you need a permit not only for alterations, but you need a permit for a change in use or occupancy, even if no construction is being done.

To go to the extreme, if you decide to change a house into a nightclub, but make no alterations (you just start taking tickets at the door, hiring a band, etc), then you need a building permit for the change in use. The change will likely also require alterations to comply with the code, but in the unlikely case that no alterations are required, you still need a building permit and you still need a new certificate of occupancy, which states on it the allowed use, occupant load, etc.. That's the only way that the AHJ can confirm that the building (or portion thereof) complies with the code as it applies to the new use/occupancy. That's basic building code 101.

Steve,

I cannot believe a Building Official with AHJ is not understanding the difference between what the code addresses as "Use and Occupancy" OF A BUILDING OR STRUCTURE (THOSE ARE the used the code uses to go with "use and occupancy") as being different from changing the use of a ROOM *IN A RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT*.

You really need to understand "basic building code 101" and what the code says, how the code is applied, and what IS NOT COVERED or addressed in the code - all of which I will cover in Basic Building Code 101, if you need it.

Crimeny, this is worse than having to explain to an electrical contractor that a double pole 40 amp breaker does not allow 80 amps through it.

What a silly thread !!! Do you really think that most local AHJs have a squad of "Bedroom Police?" Remember the old saw, "A home is a man's castle" and by God he will sleep in any room he chooses too. The building codes are minimal in nature and are about occupant and building safety. If I made up a list of "things" missed by the AHJ in the cities where I've inspected it would be twice as long as our government's new proposed health care program.

Let’s get back to sensible discussions of the codes and generally accepted construction practices. We all know that a "sleeping room" should be equipped with EE&R per code and that SDs are required, but how many times have we all found otherwise? (big difference between should & must)

There is no argument that by and large home inspectors provide an extremely high valuable service and my experience has shown that a sharp-eyed experienced private sector property inspector on average will run circles around your average jurisdictional inspector. There is a very good reason for that fact and I'm sure most of you know what it is.

JP,

We can disagree, but please don't portend to tell me that I don't understand the code. I have sat on many code committees and have had a hand in drafting many sections of the code, as well and questions for the ICC exams. I am confusing nothing.

There is a difference between Use Group and Use/Occupancy. One of the BOCA committees I sat on spent days trying to eliminate the word "use" from the code, because it was constantly being confused with Use Group. They changed the word to "occupancy", wherever possible. You need a permit to change the use group (for example, A to R) and you need a permit to change the use/occupancy of a building or space within a use group, even when there is no construction.

Again: "R110.1 Use and occupancy. No building or structure shall be used or occupied, and no change in the existing occupancy classification of a building or structure or portion thereof shall be made until the building official has issued a certificate of occupancy therefor as provided herein."

They use the term "occupancy classification" and not the term "use group" for a reason. When a study changes to a bedroom, it is a change in the occupancy classification of the room, even though it's the same use group.

It should be easy to understand. There are different code requirements for a space, depending on the use of the space. It is not legal to change a room to a different Use Group or to a different use/occupacy wihtin the same use group without a permit and without a c.o. Quite simple (or so I thought).

And no, of course there are no bedroom police, and I think I made it clear when I said that such changes are done all of the time. It does not make it right, and it does not make it legal. People use cellars as bedrooms all of the time, and they also die in them all of the time, because they did not install an emergency egress window, smoke detectors, etc.

We recently had a fire in a nearby community that killed a father and two children in an illegal cellar apartment. The local AHJ knew nothing about it. That's not quite the same thing, because there was probably some construction involved in creating the apartment, which should have had a permit. However, if they had simply decided to move some beds down there, and build nothing, are you really implying that no c.o. would have bene required? By the way, the owner is facing negligent homicide charges.

I give up. I'm getting a headache.

Originally Posted by Steve Frederickson

Again: "R110.1 Use and occupancy. No building or structure shall be used or occupied, and no change in the existing occupancy classification of a building or structure or portion thereof shall be made until the building official has issued a certificate of occupancy therefor as provided herein."

Crimeny, Steve, YOU are not even reading what YOU are posting.

"occupancy CLASSIFICATION"

"or portion thereof"

IS THE DEN STILL BEING USED AS A *RESIDENTIAL* OCCUPANCY?

If you say anything other than "Yes. That is STILL a RESIDENTIAL occupancy.", then I will know you are nuts and off your rocker.

If you say "Yes. That is STILL a RESIDENTIAL occupancy." ... you have just confirmed what *I* have been trying to explain to you ... that the "OCCUPANCY" "CLASSIFICATION" *IS NOT CHANGED* by using that den as a bedroom, in which case, being as there is no change, no permit is required.

Jeez, and to think I am having to explain this to a Building Official and AHJ ...

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

my experience has shown that a sharp-eyed experienced private sector property inspector on average will run circles around your average jurisdictional inspector. There is a very good reason for that fact and I'm sure most of you know what it is.

And why is that Jerry?

Let's compare apples to apples. You are comparing a sharp eyed experienced private sector property inspector to an average jurisdictional inspector. Not quite the same is it?

Even silly posts can be educational! It's just that some on here are so full of themselves that they can't see past their egos.

I have seen so many people on here make negative responses about AHJ's. It's like you guys think that HI's are the only inspectors out there worth anything!

But then again, what else am I supposed to expect from a HI forum.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

I have seen so many people on here make negative responses about AHJ's. It's like you guys think that HI's are the only inspectors out there worth anything!

But then again, what else am I supposed to expect from a HI forum.

Wayne,

Actually, many of us respect Building Officials and Code Inspectors and what they do, because we know it is the first line of defense against dumb builders, contractors and homeowners.

We also point out the stupidity of those same Building Officials and Code Inspectors when they so blatantly say something stupid, and then continue to show their lack of understanding of the code by repeating it over and over and over, trying to rescue themselves by posting even more inapplicable code sections in their effort to try to make what they are saying look not so stupid ... kind of like in the above posts.

When you make a mistake, admit it, re-affirm what is actually correct, and move on, rescuing what you can from was just happened. It's called "learning the hard way", but nonetheless "learning". It happens TO ALL of us.

We say something stupid, get beat over the head with the correct information until it soaks in, acknowledge the error, then move on and all is forgiven as we understand we are all human and humans make errors.

But to insist that the world is flat when it is known to be otherwise ... that is just crazy.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

I have heard that a bedroom is REQUIRED to have a closet, however I can not find a requirement in the 2006 IRC. Can someone confirm or deni if a required to have a bedroom closet exist?

WOW! I just signed up for this forum and this is the first thread that I took a look at...

I gotta say... The content that has been generated (or denigrated) from this seamingly innocuous question (that had been asked so long ago) is begining to resemble the only toilet that had been delivered to a Texas Cilly Cook-off!

Like Wilfred Brimley once said... "Opinions are like butt holes... everybody has one and everybody else thinks the other guys stinks...

Meanwhile... To answer Rick's question... Technically no, a bedroom is not "required" to have a closet, per the code...

That being said, the IBC-Building has a couple of references you might be interested in... (the IRC defers to "other ICC codes" for undefined words...)

Chapter 2 - Definitions - "Sleeping Unit" A room or space in which people sleep,
( Don'cha love the code...?) which can also include permenant provisions for living, eating, and either sanitation or kitchen facilities, but not both.
Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.

But, when you go over to Chapter 12- Interior Environment... Section 1208.4 refers to "Efficency dwelling units"...
An efficency dwelling unit shall conform to the requirements of the code except as modified herein:
(notice it said "the" code and not "this" code - I'll elaborate later...)
1. (A bigger living room than a dwelling with two rooms) and...
2. The unit shall be provided with a seperate closet.

So to me... If rooms or spaces that are part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units and effiencies can be used as a sleeping unit...
I would say that a sleeping unit needs to have a closet...

But, to be honest with you though, I only check for closets so I can determine impact fees, egrees windows, smoke detectors and and tell the firemen how many burnt bodies there going to be expected to pull out of the building when the place burns down because 15 illegals were using the place to sleep in every room... You know, stuff like that there...

Man, oh man... I hope you folks are as passionate about ADA compliance as you are about closets...

Bob.

Originally Posted by InspectorBob

Chapter 2 - Definitions - "Sleeping Unit" ...

Hey Bob,

Welcome to the fray!

Just a side note: You posted a definition of a "sleeping unit" and not a "sleeping room", thus that definition does not apply to "sleeping room" and the following discussion about requiring a permit to move furniture around.

By the way, we use our real names here, so ... if you would, click on 'Contact Us' at the bottom and ask Brian to change your user name to your real name. Let's us "get to know each other". Thanks.

Hutchison Island, huh? I spent my teenage years in Ft. Pierce. Of course, though, most of the latter teenage years were spent surfing, mostly North Jetty, but sometimes we would go south of the South Jetty and travel down to remote spots to spend the night on the beach, dug out the sand, laid the surf board over us, shimmied around to cause the sand to fall in around us, which kept the sand fleas out while we slept.

Bob,

Welcome! You got that right, this is a spirited bunch. This thread was brought back from the dead apparently when I posted a new web address to the HUD appraiser guidelines. I apologize for waking the sleeping giant!

Being new here myself I can say that I am glad I found this group. There is much to be learned here. We hope you enjoy your stay.

Jerry,
Thanks for the heads up on the user name thing... as you can see, it's changed...

Yeah, I'm out on the island, east of Fort Pierce... I'm living in a condo complex that I permited while I was the BO with the City... (talk about making your own bed...) The island has changed a lot... But the city is pretty much the way it was back then... Ah, beautiful downtown Fort Pierce, where men are men and sheep are scared!

As far as the sleeping "unit" definition,(Alright boys... lets keep the humor to a minimum now...)
I think it's use is more generic than technical... after all it determins the specific use of a room or space... "used for sleeping..."
It's also used to describe a situation where there is an "en-suite" arrangement of even an included kitchen... but not both... (thank goodness that it reminds us not to s..t where we eat...)

But, as far as this thread making the transition from a bedroom requiring a closet to a permit being required to move furniture... I still say that the closet requirement is not definitive in the code... or at least, enough to hang our hats on... That being said, however... between mortgage lenders, FHA, Fair Housing and who knows who else, that's not to say that it's not needed to define a sleeping unit...

Now, as far as moving furniture... That would only be enforcable on a local code enforcement level... and for just the act of moving funiture... in a one and two family dwelling, the need to obtain a permit does not exist... on face value...

(I've had it happen in many jurisdictions...)For what ever reason the home owner puts a bed in a den of (and in some cases, the living room) and now he's bedding down 6 -8 people...

My code enforcement people would stake the place out... record the goings on and file a local overcrowding complaint... Then I can whack the owner for Standard Housing Code Violations... That escalates to Building Code violations and then I include the Fire Marshal for fire code infractions violations...

But, the first thing out of the owners mouth is always... "Hey man, I only moved some funriture around..."

I love this business...

Bob,

I moved from Ft. Pierce in 1967, so that was quite some time ago.

We used to live where the water tower used to be at 9th street and Georgia Ave, our house was on the corner of 9th and Georgia and our neighbors house was on the corner of 9th and Parkway - now there is just empty space across the street from our old house.

Anyway, good to meet someone from the old neighborhood even if you were not there at the same time. Or were you?

Getting back to the definition and it being generic or not, it is not as generic as you are taking it:
- From the IBC: (underlining and bold are mine)
- - SLEEPING UNIT. A room or space in which people sleep, which can also include permanent provisions for living, eating, and either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both. Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.

- From the FBC-Building:
- - SLEEPING UNIT. A room or space in which people sleep, which can also include permanent provisions for living, eating, and either sanitation or kitchen facilities but not both. Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.

Thus, the definition for sleeping units only applied to residential dwelling units to the extent as saying that it is not applicable to dwelling units.

Originally Posted by Bob Phoenix

Now, as far as moving furniture... That would only be enforcable on a local code enforcement level... and for just the act of moving funiture... in a one and two family dwelling, the need to obtain a permit does not exist... on face value...

Correct.

(I've had it happen in many jurisdictions...)For what ever reason the home owner puts a bed in a den of (and in some cases, the living room) and now he's bedding down 6 -8 people...

My code enforcement people would stake the place out... record the goings on and file a local overcrowding complaint... Then I can whack the owner for Standard Housing Code Violations... That escalates to Building Code violations and then I include the Fire Marshal for fire code infractions violations...

Correct, but that becomes a local zoning issue with the number of person "renting" the space and the wording of the local zoning ordinances which governs landlords, rentals, etc., it is not a "building code" issue ... yet.

Once the housing violations start, then the landlord is required to bring the building up to the code for that use, AT THAT POINT ... it then becomes a permitting and building code issue for all specified corrections which now MUST be made ... with permits, of course.

However, if the owner of a single-family home simply moved in his mother-in-law and made the den into a bedroom, there would not be any zoning issues which would be violated and thus nothing would be triggered. Or, for another example, let's say the homeowner had twins, and at some point they wanted more privacy, so one moved to the den, making it into a bedroom - again, no zoning violations and nothing to trigger what you were describing. Neither of the last two examples would require a permit for "moving furniture" and "making the den into a bedroom" as no changes were made to "the structure or building", and there were also no "occupancy and use" changes ... unlike your example of making the single-family dwelling into a rooming house.

Originally Posted by Bob Phoenix

Jerry,
Thanks for the heads up on the user name thing... as you can see, it's changed...

Yeah, I'm out on the island, east of Fort Pierce... I'm living in a condo complex that I permited while I was the BO with the City... (talk about making your own bed...) The island has changed a lot... But the city is pretty much the way it was back then... Ah, beautiful downtown Fort Pierce, where men are men and sheep are scared!

As far as the sleeping "unit" definition,(Alright boys... lets keep the humor to a minimum now...)
I think it's use is more generic than technical... after all it determins the specific use of a room or space... "used for sleeping..."
It's also used to describe a situation where there is an "en-suite" arrangement of even an included kitchen... but not both... (thank goodness that it reminds us not to s..t where we eat...)

But, as far as this thread making the transition from a bedroom requiring a closet to a permit being required to move furniture... I still say that the closet requirement is not definitive in the code... or at least, enough to hang our hats on... That being said, however... between mortgage lenders, FHA, Fair Housing and who knows who else, that's not to say that it's not needed to define a sleeping unit...

Now, as far as moving furniture... That would only be enforcable on a local code enforcement level... and for just the act of moving funiture... in a one and two family dwelling, the need to obtain a permit does not exist... on face value...

(I've had it happen in many jurisdictions...)For what ever reason the home owner puts a bed in a den of (and in some cases, the living room) and now he's bedding down 6 -8 people...

My code enforcement people would stake the place out... record the goings on and file a local overcrowding complaint... Then I can whack the owner for Standard Housing Code Violations... That escalates to Building Code violations and then I include the Fire Marshal for fire code infractions violations...

But, the first thing out of the owners mouth is always... "Hey man, I only moved some funriture around..."

I love this business...

And now Bob since you did as Jerry wished, how he wished and when he wished, and gave you exact location where you are you are now worthy of him commenting on what you might have to say He will now tell you what he thinks, how he thinks and how you should think and what you should say and how you should say it and what teminology you should use based on how he would will and does use it

Just kidding....kinda....but not....he is alright...everyone else is just wrong.

Gees, what a ham..................

Now for what I think.

Now that I re read everything youn had to say so far I undestand exactly where you are coming from with the exception of the fact that no one needs to apply for the change of use or permanently taking a room and changing it to a bedroom............unless they get caught or someone dies then they can and may get legal charges put forth upon them because they chose to turn any old room buy moving the appropriate furniture into a sleeping room/sleeping unit/bedroom with out pulling a permit to possibly change heating, electrical, egress and lighting and such.


So, is a permit required.......Yes it is if it is a permanent change and structural, electrical, heating, egress etc etc are needed and not just a brief, mom and dad, are staying over for the night thing.

Should they, must they, can they, do they have to.....Who gives a dam about the wording. The answer is Yes. It is a legal fact that a permit must be pulled (in that example or most examples) unless you live on top of Old Rocky knob and der aint no poymits neded. Anyone can twist it any way they want. They are not going to change the facts of what must happen. I could care less if the exact wording is in any darn code book that states such.

But of course that is just my opinion.

Nice to have you Bob Hope you stick around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

I could care less if the exact wording is in any darn code book that states such.

Ted,

That came through LOUD AND CLEAR ...

... HOWEVER ... we were discussing CODE and what the CODE stated and required ...

... you not caring what the code said made your arguments pointless to the actual discussion at hand.



See, Ted, CODE is what was being discussed, and what the CODE said is what mattered - not anything else.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ted,

That came through LOUD AND CLEAR ...

... HOWEVER ... we were discussing CODE and what the CODE stated and required ...

... you not caring what the code said made your arguments pointless to the actual discussion at hand.



See, Ted, CODE is what was being discussed, and what the CODE said is what mattered - not anything else.

I know, I know. I am just a sweet heart of a guy so I will copy and paste what you said that makes you contradict yourself.

You know what....forget it. I will just use this.

If a tree falls in the middle of the forest will it make a very loud thud noise when it hits the ground even if there is no one around? Never mind answering that the answer is still yes.

If you move mother inlaw into a non compliant room (comliancey needed for a bedroom on a permanent level), no proper heat, egress, lighting etc etc etc.....Is there a code violation in that home??? Never mind. I will tell you that the answer is yes.

What does it take to turn the room into a bedroom legally and being code compliant so you can do construction, add ventilation, egress etc etc. Never mind. I will tell you.................A permit is the answer so you can do the changes and construction needed so it is note a code violation and you are now turning the whatever room into a code compliant legal bedroom.

It does not just take mom dying to make it non code compliant. It does not make it illegal just to plant mom into a non compliant sleeping quarters and she fries like your forgot about burger on the grill. It makes it illegal to plant her in that non complying room to begin with and you should not have planted her there on a permanent basis and moved her furniture in until you followed the letter of the law that has to do with being code compliant.

As I say. You are getting better and better at twisting and turning (by the way, you were awfully polite in the last post to me) but it still amounts to the same thing.

You are looking for a magic trigger that it is going to take to pull a permit to make it code compliant for moms safety. Unfortunately, while you are waiting for that trigger....well...think of the forgot about burger on the grill.

Have a wonderful night Jerry.

It was very nice talking to you.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

If you move mother inlaw into a non compliant room (comliancey needed for a bedroom on a permanent level), no proper heat, egress, lighting etc etc etc.....Is there a code violation in that home??? Never mind. I will tell you that the answer is yes.

You are correct there: Yes, there is a "code violation" in that room.

However, WAS a permit required to move her bed into that room? The answer is "No. A permit is NOT REQUIRED for that."

Is a permit required if the code violation is going to be corrected? Yes again.

Is a permit required if the code violation is not going to be corrected? No again.

Is anyone going to enforce that code on using that den for sleeping? No again.

UNLESS Bob's scenario happened and there were 13 people living there, then yes.

Ted, you are so convinced that you know it all and are right that you are not even paying attention to what is being discussed ... and they you say you don't care what the codes say, you are going to have it your way anyway ... which I understand, and which is why your arguments were meaningless.

When discussing code, code makes the difference, not "Ted's opinion of what he thinks and does not care what the code says."

Alllllrighty then....
Well, since you put it that way... that provides a whole new light on it...

Like I said before... I love the code...

So, let's go over it again so, everyone can enjoy the punch line...

SLEEPING UNIT. A room or space in which people sleep, (remove
extraneous and confusing language here). Such rooms and spaces that are also part of a dwelling unit are not sleeping units.
OK so "units" are out... but sleeping "rooms"

I guess that leaves us... R313.1.1...
R313.1.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.
When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be provided with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired...
So, as I read the smoke detector provision of the Res code... conceivably, a permit could be required because of moving furniture...
But, don't be confused with requiring a permit for moving furniture... the permit is required for the electrical portion, as a rusult of moving furniture...

Bob,

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Bob Phoenix

I guess that leaves us... R313.1.1...
R313.1.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.
When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be provided with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired...
So, as I read the smoke detector provision of the Res code... conceivably, a permit could be required because of moving furniture...
But, don't be confused with requiring a permit for moving furniture... the permit is required for the electrical portion, as a rusult of moving furniture...

So, back to one of my other posts, quoted below: changes are in red text

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

1) I have a den, which just happens to have a window which meets EERO size requirements, and it just happens to have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing.

Still correct.

2) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom.

Q. What HAS to be done?
A. Absolutely nothing.

My A. is incorrect - a smoke detector is "required" to be added according to R313.2.1 which Bob provided.

Q. What SHOULD be done?
A. The window SHOULD be addressed to make sure it meets EERO size requirements and as smoke detector SHOULD be installed.

My A. is incorrect regarding the smoke detector in that it is a "requirement".

Q. Is a permit required at this point where I have moved a bed into that den and are now using it as a bedroom?
A. No. I have NOT ALTERED the "building or structure" at this point.

My A. is correct to the extent of the answer, however, the answer should include a permit is "required" for the installation of the now "required" smoke detector - but not because of moving the furniture.

3) I have a den, which happens to have a window which *does not* meet EERO size requirements and does not have a smoke detector, so I move a bed into my den and call it a bedroom. Being a home owner with the knowledge that I SHOULD address the size of the window to meet EERO sizes, and knowing that I SHOULD add a smoke detector, I start to make the window meet those requirements and begin adding a smoke detector.

Q. Is a permit required because I am now altering the "BUILDING OR STRUCTURE"?
A. Yes, a permit is needed, not because I moved a bed into that room, and not because I SHOULD address the window and smoke detector, but BECAUSE *I AM* addressing the window and smoke detector.

My A. is correct to the extent that it goes, however, it should also include that a permit is required for the now required smoke detector - in addition to the permit for the EERO.

With the code section Bob posted, R313.2.1, smoke detectors are required to be added ... NOT JUST TO THE NEW SLEEPING ROOM ... but "the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings;".

Thank you, Bob.

Bob,

Now that you have determined that making that room into a "sleeping room" requires a smoke detector to be added ...

We need a legal code definition of "sleeping room". One which, of course, exempts out all rooms which the primary purpose of which is not for sleeping, i.e., living rooms, office, breakfast room, dining room, den, family room, etc.

Okay, first I will start with the living room and family rooms as they are the rooms "mostly likely" to have ... sofas and chairs which are convertible into beds ... ... and, as those now have beds in them, are they now "sleeping rooms" and they now require smoke detectors added to the dwelling unit in accordance with new construction - that is, after all, what the code SAYS ... a "sleeping room" has just been created, AND - NO furniture has be moved and relocated.


From the IRC:
- R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.
- R201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.

Sleeping rooms are not defined in the codes, thus the "term shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies", which "ordinarily accepted meaning" is 'a room with a bed and a closet and which a primary use is intended to be for sleeping', and, in older homes (many older homes do not have closets) 'a room with a bed which a primary use is intended to be for sleeping'.

Those two, and the latter especially, pretty well defines the "ordinarily accepted meaning" of a "sleeping room", which means the living room and family room with the convertible sofas and chairs are not "sleeping rooms" when used for sleeping on those beds as that is not a "primary use", unless it is a "primary use" for that room.

Okay, to make it more complicated: A den with a day bed in it.

Yer welcome, all
And Thanks for the welcoming wished... Yeah this seems like a fun place to hang out... So, I'll probably stick around for a while...

Bet you thought I was being sarcastic when I said that "I love the code..." I was, but only a little...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Bob,

Now that you have determined that making that room into a "sleeping room" requires a smoke detector to be added ...

We need a legal code definition of "sleeping room". One which, of course, exempts out all rooms which the primary purpose of which is not for sleeping, i.e., living rooms, office, breakfast room, dining room, den, family room, etc.

Okay, first I will start with the living room and family rooms as they are the rooms "mostly likely" to have ... sofas and chairs which are convertible into beds ... ... and, as those now have beds in them, are they now "sleeping rooms" and they now require smoke detectors added to the dwelling unit in accordance with new construction - that is, after all, what the code SAYS ... a "sleeping room" has just been created, AND - NO furniture has be moved and relocated.


From the IRC:
- R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.
- R201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.

Sleeping rooms are not defined in the codes, thus the "term shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies", which "ordinarily accepted meaning" is 'a room with a bed and a closet and which a primary use is intended to be for sleeping', and, in older homes (many older homes do not have closets) 'a room with a bed which a primary use is intended to be for sleeping'.

Those two, and the latter especially, pretty well defines the "ordinarily accepted meaning" of a "sleeping room", which means the living room and family room with the convertible sofas and chairs are not "sleeping rooms" when used for sleeping on those beds as that is not a "primary use", unless it is a "primary use" for that room.

Okay, to make it more complicated: A den with a day bed in it.

Oh, right the definition...

Don't forget that we here in go ol' FLA have the benefit of our own adoption of the ICC model code... the Florida Building Code...
But, in the begining of the definitions section, the code specifies... "Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged" as the reference for words not defined in the code...

Unfortunately, Mr. Webster decided to not publish "Sleeping Room..."
So, I guess we are left to use the tools we have... the gift of deductive reasoning... and here it is...

Sleeping -
transitive verb
1 : to be slumbering in
2 : to get rid of or spend in or by sleep
(My favorite)
3 : to provide sleeping accommodations for

Room -
Function: noun
1 : an extent of space occupied by or sufficient or available for something
2 a obsolete : an appropriate or designated position, post, or station
b : place, stead
(I think this one fits best...)
3 a : a partitioned part of the inside of a building; especially : such a part used as a lodging
b : the people in a room
4 : a suitable or fit occasion or opportunity : chance

So, unless we're dealing with a crowd of people who are slumbering as you talk... (well...)
I would have to believe that we're talking about "a partitioned part of the the inside of a building, which is used to provide sleeping accomodations for...

Oh yeah... that day bed...?!? Be careful... You could be treading on "Board and Care" occupancy there... Of course, depending on what you get for "personal care..."
'Nuf said...