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  1. #1
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    Default Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    The newer NEST thermostats claim to also act as smoke and CO detectors.
    https://nest.com/smoke-co-alarm/meet-nest-protect/

    Do NEST thermostats meet fire code requirements?

    I tend to view them the same way as I think about security alarm systems that also act as smoke and fire detectors. They may work fine for a prior homeowner, but what if the next home buyer chooses not to pay the subscription fees and the system is inactive? I always felt you could not rely on alarm systems because they could be de-activated for any number of reasons, therefore standard smoke detectors should still be in installed. Does this logic carry with the NEST thermostat systems?

    IRC 2012:
    SECTION R314 SMOKE ALARMS

    R314.1 Smoke detection and notification.
    All smoke alarms shall be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 217 and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the household fire warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72.

    R314.2 Smoke detection systems.
    Household fire alarm systems installed in accordance with NFPA 72 that include smoke alarms, or a combination of smoke detector and audible notification device installed as required by this section for smoke alarms, shall be permitted. The household fire alarm system shall provide the same level of smoke detection and alarm as required by this section for smoke alarms. Where a household fire warning system is installed using a combination of smoke detector and audible notification device(s), it shall become a permanent fixture of the occupancy and owned by the homeowner. The system shall be monitored by an approved supervising station and be maintained in accordance with NFPA 72.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Beck View Post
    The newer NEST thermostats claim to also act as smoke and CO detectors.
    https://nest.com/smoke-co-alarm/meet-nest-protect/

    Do NEST thermostats meet fire code requirements?
    It took a bit of searching on that site (seems to me that they would put it up front and center and easy to find): (underlining is mine)
    - Nest Protect complies with all of the following smoke and carbon monoxide alarm standards:
    - - UL 2034 - “Single and Multi Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms”
    - - - (IRC R315.2 requires listing and labeling of carbon monoxide detector to UL 2075, R315.4 requires listing as UL 2034 for single station carbon monoxide alarms)
    - - UL 217 - “Single and Multi Station Smoke Alarms”
    - - - (IRC R314.1 requires listing and labeling of smoke alarms to UL 217)
    - - NFPA-72 - “National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code”

    So the answer is 'maybe'.

    It states that it "complies with" (which is not necessary the same thing as being 'listed and labeled' to, could indicate the same thing, but maybe not) UL 217 for smoke alarms.

    It also states that it "complies with" UL 2034 for carbon monoxide alarms ... same comment as above about "complies with" versus is 'listed to' ... and the code indicates UL 2034 is for single station alarms, so it may also need to listed as UL 2075, which it does not say it "complies with".

    Maybe Bob H. will see this and reply as he would have a greater knowledge of the differences between the requirements as stated in the code and as stated in the manufacturer's advertising information. Note: I did not look up UL 2034 or 2075 to see what they state they are for, I am just using the code UL numbers and the advertising information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    ...................................

    badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042 TREC # 4563
    Commercial-Residential-Construction-EIFS-Infrared Thermography
    life is the random lottery of events followed by numerous narrow escapes

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    With few exceptions, smoke detectors are required to be mounted between 12" and 4" of the ceiling.
    CO detectors can pretty much be mounted anywhere.
    So, I would think if the thermostat/ smoke detector is mounted at shoulder height, then no, it would not be acceptable.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    With few exceptions, smoke detectors are required to be mounted between 12" and 4" of the ceiling.
    CO detectors can pretty much be mounted anywhere.
    So, I would think if the thermostat/ smoke detector is mounted at shoulder height, then no, it would not be acceptable.
    There is no requirement for smoke alarms to be mounted "between 12" and 4" of the ceiling".
    The manufacturer specifies locations / measurements but that would be specific to their product. The IRC and UL 217 give no such measurements.

    If Nest has technology that allows it to work at thermostat height and meets the requirements of UL 217 then that would be part of their instructions and would be fine.


    Corey


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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Friedman View Post
    There is no requirement for smoke alarms to be mounted "between 12" and 4" of the ceiling".
    The manufacturer specifies locations / measurements but that would be specific to their product. The IRC and UL 217 give no such measurements.

    If Nest has technology that allows it to work at thermostat height and meets the requirements of UL 217 then that would be part of their instructions and would be fine.


    Corey
    Rick is referring to wall mounted smoke alarms.

    The thermostat would be wall mounted.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rick is referring to wall mounted smoke alarms.

    The thermostat would be wall mounted.

    Hi Jerry,

    Long time, I hope all is well.

    Agreed about the wall mounting. Unless I am misunderstanding something, all I was saying is that there is no measurement that is "required" down from the ceiling. The manufacturer specifies that.

    Corey


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    I had to read this thread three times and wait for a couple of posters before chiming in.

    First off, I am a little confused by the use of the question, "does NEST thermostat meet code for smoke alarms."
    Perplexing.

    1: A Smoke Detector is not a thermostat but a detector.
    A smoke alarm uses ionization "detectors and photoelectric detectors" and not a thermostat.

    2: Thermostats do not control smoke alarms/detectors.

    Nest is a network routing information to controllers.

    The link is to NEST Thermostat specs. https://nest.com/uk/support/article/...specifications
    NEST Split-Spectrum Sensor
    https://nest.com/ca/support/article/...specifications

    PS: Nest recalling 440,000 Protect smoke alarms, providing refunds.
    Hope that helps.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    CO detectors can pretty much be mounted anywhere.
    Underlined is mine.

    The specific gravity of Carbon Monoxide is ( 0.9657.) (Normal air 1.0).
    This means CO gas will float up towards the ceiling because it is lighter than regular air.

    When a build up of CO becomes dangerous in level, this is nearly always due to a heat source that is not burning its fuel correctly. Note: (motor vehicle exhaust fumes are an exception).
    This heated air can form a layer near your ceiling which can prevent the Carbon Monoxide from reaching a ceiling detector.
    Recommendations are to mount your detectors on the walls at least a couple of feet below the height of the ceiling.
    CMDP | Helping you position Carbon Monoxide Detectors safely

    In Ontario there is Bill 77 est 2014.
    Since carbon monoxide moves freely in the air, the suggested location is in or as near as possible to sleeping areas of the home. - See more at: Public Safety: Carbon Monoxide | Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs

    Hope that helps.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Friedman View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    Long time, I hope all is well.

    Agreed about the wall mounting. Unless I am misunderstanding something, all I was saying is that there is no measurement that is "required" down from the ceiling. The manufacturer specifies that.

    Corey
    Corey,

    Yes, good to hear from you again - it's been a while.

    Regarding locations being specified - yes and no.

    Wall and ceiling corners dimensions are addressed in the code.

    For the ceiling smoke alarms, the minimum distance from a wall (or intersection such a cove molding) is 4 inches asI recall.

    For walls, the minimum is 4 inches and the maximum is 12 inches.

    Those are in various codes, and for smoke alarms which meet the standards required by those codes, the manufacturer's installation instructions will also have those dimensions.

    Thus my 'yes and no'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Corey,

    Yes, good to hear from you again - it's been a while.

    Regarding locations being specified - yes and no.

    Wall and ceiling corners dimensions are addressed in the code.

    For the ceiling smoke alarms, the minimum distance from a wall (or intersection such a cove molding) is 4 inches asI recall.

    For walls, the minimum is 4 inches and the maximum is 12 inches.

    Those are in various codes, and for smoke alarms which meet the standards required by those codes, the manufacturer's installation instructions will also have those dimensions.

    Thus my 'yes and no'.

    Hi Jerry,
    I agree with the yes and no.
    Like so many other things, even this can get deep and complicated.

    As an example, The IRC does not give any dimensions but NFPA 72 does.

    However, I think NFPA 72 talks about detectors and systems and not alarms without systems (that's from memory, I could be mistaken no book available at the moment).

    I'm looking forward to learning more about the Nest product.

    Be well...
    Corey


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Friedman View Post
    As an example, The IRC does not give any dimensions but NFPA 72 does.
    Corey,

    This is where the IRC addresses the question under discussion (location at ceiling/wall intersections):
    - Section R314 Smoke Alarms
    - - R314.1 General
    - - - Smoke alarms shall comply with NFPA 72 and Section R314.

    Thus, by reference, the IRC addresses that issue ... albeit not directly, but through NFPA 72.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    I could be wrong having only glanced at the literature but I would place it under NFPA 72, Chapter 24 of the 2010 edition of the National Fire Alarm and Signaling.
    This 2010 chapter of the Code is a new chapter that covers the requirements for the installation and performance of emergency communications systems for in-building fire emergency voice/alarm communications systems and other communications systems.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Do NEST thermostats meet code for smoke alarms?

    Robert,

    Washington State started to require CO detectors in homes several years ago and we went through some controversy on installation location. I ended up talking to the state and they said follow manufacturers installation instructions. This makes sense as Kidde for example has wall plug-in units and smoke/CO alarms. Obviously Kidde feels they will get alerts whether the units are mount low, high or mid wall. Washington went further and required CO's on each level of the home, installed adjacent to sleeping rooms if applicable.

    //Rick

    Rick Bunzel
    WWW.PacCrestInspections.com
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