Thread: Heat/smoke damaged sheetrock

Hello all. I was so excited when I found this site because I am in a situation and was looking for some expert advice. I had a large kitchen fire in a small 1 bdrm 600 sqft house. The 1 bedroom is upstairs and all other is down (bath,living kitchen). My big problem is that the ins co only wants to replace the sheetrock in the kitchen and says they can patch the pop holes(where the nails heated up and poped out a piece of the rock) and the tape where its comming loose in areas, and shoot some kills and all will be good... I have had 4 contractors out and each have suggested if not demanded that all the rock should come out. 1 to make sure the electrical is not compromised, 2 to remove the smoke saturated insulation, and 3 to do the job correctly. This fire got so hot that it blew out the bottom windows and all the plastics in the house were melted,even upstairs. Can yall give me some helpful advice and direction?? Thanks from TEXAS

Similar Threads:

• Smoke detector --AFCI?
• Heat Pump?
• smoke detectors
• smoke alarms wired together
• Magic Heat

Yes! Have the 4 contractors submit all the bids to the insurance company.
They will have to respond to this and most likely will give in and do it right.






Rolland Pruner

Arlen,

You left out a critical bit of information: water.

How much water was sprayed where to put the fire out.

"Water" is the worst thing which can be put on drywall as that makes things soft and sag, and, worse than that, may lead to (I really hate to use this four letter word because it raises emotions, but you ultimately could suffer allergies from this) 'mold'. Not as in 'toxic kill you because you breathe the air' mold, almost all of that is hype, but as in 'some people are allergic to some molds, and, if the drywall is left, there is *the possibility* that you may get some mold growth and, as a result, you may (or may not) find out you have allergies to it.

*IF* you do, your insurance company will then need to remove all (or a large portion of it) of the drywall anyway.

*IF* you are not allergic to that mold to a degree where it bothers you (many people are not), then it might not be a problem.

However, getting back to my question ... was there 'water, water, water everywhere'?

Or was it mostly smoke and heat damage?

Read this ( http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/GA-231-06.pdf ), pay special attention to the part at the very beginning in the bordered text, such as where it says "Some board exposed to these conditions may not need to be replaced, depending upon the source of the moisture and the condition of the gypsum board being considered for replacement. However, IF THERE IS EVER A DOUBT ABOUT WHETHER TO KEEP OR REPLACE GYPSUM BOARD THAT HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO MOISTURE -- REPLACE IT."

This is from the association of manufacturers which makes the stuff!

This one also ( http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/GA-238-03.pdf ) - "GYPSUM BOARD MUST BE KEPT DRY to prevent the growth of mold."

The entire electrical system needs to be inspected and replaced as needed.
If I am doing the inspection when you go to sell this house, it will be a deal killer if not done right.
All damaged sheetrock needs to be replaced not just patched.
Any charred wood needs to be replaced, not just painted over.
Kilz is a good primer to cover smoke stains and the accompanying odor, it is NOT a repair for damaged structural lumber and sheetrock.
There is likely water damage to that sheetrock in addition to the smoke damage.
Don't let them get off cheap, you will pay in the long run.
Ask you insurance agent about what the CLUE report will say when you go to sell the house.

Originally Posted by arlen fisher

1 to make sure the electrical is not compromised,

This fire got so hot that ... all the plastics in the house were melted,even upstairs.

Most insulation since the late 1940s to early 1950s (how old is your house) is thermoplastic, and, if the upstairs got that hot, I can imagine insulation damage too ... from heat ... water or no water. Before thermoplastic was mostly likely rubber insulation - which is worse in heat.

Lots of information I never thought of THANKS to all of you.. The fire dept. used miminal water wetting only
the area of fire ,and that(kitchen) area is going to be replaced anyway. The rest of the house was just the heat and smoke. This house was built in the 70's and im not sure of the insulationtype,but it looks like the stuff used today. I spoke to the adjuster again today and he was FIRM that all needed to be replaced was the kitchen, and that the OZENATOR used by blackmon mooring would rid the house of any and all odors!?? I just wish I knew my rights with this ins. company.... After reading lots of letters from mad customers on google, I'm scared that if I buck them- they will deny or hold off on the claim. What exactly is the CLUE report?? I'm currious. Again, thanks for all the input!!!! Arlen

Most insulation since the late 1940s to early 1950s (how old is your house) is thermoplastic,

The insulation Jerry refers to is the electric WIRE insulation, not the house wall insulation. Wire insulation is plastic and will burn and melt. If you have a typical attic there is a lot of wire in the attic that can be damaged just from the intense heat.

The CLUE report is a insurance company report that lists all of the insurance claims that have EVER been made since they started the program. A potential home buyer can get the report to see if there has ever been damage. This will mean more intense scrutiny on any repair issues and may mean higher premiums or no insurance on problem houses.
Think of it kind of like a driver with a bad driving record and how hard it is to get insurance.

You might want to sit down and discuss your options with a lawyer before signing the release (check).

Ok, I will check the wire insulation realy good. This CLUE report sounds interesting. Do any of you know the magic words to use with the insurance co. or my specific rights in this area?? I try to stay clear of attorneys-as It always cost an arm and leg

Avoiding a lawyer in this case may be penny wise and pound foolish in this case. The CLUE report won't do you any good at this point. It is the potential future problems when this claim is reported. Kind of like your credit report may be great now but if you decide to skip a payment or two, six months from now your rating will drop.

I had a client a few years back that had a house fire from an bad connection at an outlet. This was a 3,000 sf one level home on a crawl space foundation. Fire was contained to the kitchen but the heat and smoke damaged the rest of the home. All of the windows had melted seals. I pulled a couple of outlets and found melted insulation on the wires in a back bedroom a good 300 feet from the fire. Roof shingles were melted as well as three plastic gable vents.

The high heat from a fire can damage so many things that you just can see from the surface. My client was getting the same line from his insurance adjuster and company. He had to get an attorney to get the proper work done that was needed on his home. You also need to get the report from the fire department that tells what they did, how much water was put on the fire and how long the fire burned before it was put out.

You might also look into hiring an experienced home inspector who could come in and do a forensic type inspection to uncover the items that the adjuster is not seeing. Then you can use that report to help in your battle with the insurance company.

BTW, every year I survey insurance agents here in Chicago and put together a report for Realtors listing the 10 top visually identifiable building conditions that make it difficult or more expensive obtain homeowner's insurance.

Identifying Common Homeowners Insurance Problems For Home Inspectors, Real Estate Professionals, Buyers and Sellers.

Every year insurance agents tell me to include a bad CLUE report, a CLUE report listing serious water problems is instant death to a new insurance application with most companies writing insurance here.

Excellent input gents. I guess now I need to try and locate a specialist in sheetrock and a consult. with an attorney, Otherwise its our opinion against theirs. Is there any type of TEST that can be run on the rock to prove or disprove that it has been stressed or damaged?? Or do yall have any idea how to locate a specialist to inspect for me?? I spoke to a few local home inspectors and they both kinda shyed away from the inspection- one said he was close to Allstate and didnt want to burn any bridges. The other gave some good advice being he used to be an adjuster(such as mediation and gather several written opinionsbecause it sounds like it should be replaced)-but didnt want to get involved either. I bet yall are tired of this post, but I realy appreciate the help here!!!

"Sheetrock", generically known as "gypsum board" because it is a gypsum core with paper wrapped around it, degrades with elevated temperatures, such as during a fire.

The gypsum (which makes up all but the outer paper layer wrapper) degrades through a process known as "calcination", when heated higher, gypsum undergoes thermal decomposition.

Typically, after a fire as hot as you are describing, the gypsum board is compromised and its gypsum core has changed chemical properties. This alone should lead to replacement.

Smoke over the gypsum board can be dealt with, but if the upstairs (above the gypsum) got hot enough to melt all the plastic stuff, then it is a good possibility that the gypsum board itself has suffered damage resulting from the fire, and my guess is 'damage resulting from the fire' is covered.

You can contact the Gypsum Association here directly with your questions, or, have your contractor contact them for their response as to the potential harm done to gypsum board by a fire.

If they say 'it needs to be replaced', there is no higher source to go to. Likewise, if they say something else (such as 'cut some out and have it tested), then that is what will need to be done.

Added with edit: I just noticed that "You can contact the Gypsum Association here directly with your questions" did not include the information I thought I pasted here - must have forgotten to paste it there - so *here* it is now.

Gypsum Association
810 First St., NE #510
Washington DC, 20002

Phone: 202-289-5440
Fax: 202-289-3707

E-mail: info@gypsum.org

Today I had an electrician out that suggested to replace the wireing in the kitchen and the upstairs bedroom(above the kitchen). He further stated that he would replace any other as needed. I had a home inspector out who advised to remove all but 1 wall of sheetrock. I have put a call in to the gypsum ass. (GREAT IDEA) I will call back tomorrow if I don't hear something by noon. I am so impressed with this site!!!! Its nice to have folks like you willing to help a STRANGER in a time of need..... I am meeting the adjuster on monday and will keep yall abrest of whats going on. Keep the good info comming A BIG THANKS TO ALL OF YOU!

Damaged / superheated sheetrock will not provide the same level of protection as new (undamaged) sheetrock.

Sheetrock has fire ratings (same as a fire rated door) which are used to determine a walls fire rating and length of time this wall should withstand direct flame contact. If all of the windows on the first floor were blown out, then the temperatures inside your home were certainly high enough to compromise the sheetrock. (if the same fire hapened again, you would see far more fire damage / fire spread due to the weakened sheetrock)

If the insurance company fails to see it "our" way, then check with your local fire marshalls office to see if you can get some help "educating" the insurance adjustor. It should become clear that replacing all the sheetrock would save their company money in the long run should there be (god forbid) another fire in the future.

Send me an instant message if you need any additional info

Lieutenant Eric Mayberry
Harlingen Fire Department

Just visited with the adjuster, and still no luck on a sheetrock compromise . I have put in several calls to the gypsum Association but have not heard back as of yet. As of now, it appears that not only do I have an issue with the smoke penetration-but more a problem with the structural integrity of the sheetrock as this stuff releases its chemicaly bonded moisture when exposed to heat and breaks down.

Lieutenant Mayberry you have a PM.

Arlen,

Do you know if your insurance policy is a "Replacement Cost" type or may be known as a HO-A policy I believe?

The reason I ask is that I had a fire a while back and Allstate paid out to have all the drywall that was even smoked up a bit to be torn out and replaced. They said just painting over it did not rid of the smoke odor in their opinion and said it should be replaced. They paid for the tear out and the complete restoration completely less my deductible as with any policy.

Hello Rick, This is interesting. How long ago was the claim??? Did they do the Ozenator also?? Did you have to argue for the rock to be replaced, or was it just the call of the adjuster?? Currious.............

Arlen,

Sounds like it's time to get a PA involved. The PA (Public Adjuster), if he's worth a nickel, will wear out the insurance company until they give in. That's his job! He only works on a percentage.

About now you are saying, "percentage"! Yep. A small percentage of the recovered amount. He will usually re-coop not only his percentage (more) but that much more on your part as well and work to your end satisfaction.

These guys will request a re-inspect after re-inspect and ultimately work for arbitration, which will work to your benefit. The insurance company will cut a check for what the original guy estimated and submitted. Don't fret... there can be supplemental after supplemental if needed. Each supplemental claim just wears'em down. You will have to be diligent and have your ducks in a row. Again, my recommendation is to contact a PA and discuss your situation with them...

Rich

Rick tell me more. I have never heard of the PA.Sounds like a great Idea!!! How can I locate one??

Arlen

I sent you back a personal message.

Fire was a year ago this last Sept.

No ozenators used.

No arguments with my adjustor. He wrote up everything to be replaced with probably more than fair cost allowances.

He even gave us credit for smoke to our fence pickets to have replaced.

Like I said, he was more than fair.

We talked a lot about the HI business too.

rick

I absolutely second the idea of contacting a Public Adjuster. He is an Adjuster who works for YOU, rather than the Insurance Company. He will deal with the Ins Co, provide them the reasons/documentation they need to approve your claim as it should be repaired.

I have used a PA (same one) on two incidents over the last decade. One was windstorm damage to a slate roof, and the one this past autumn was when a tenant's son set his mattress on fire. The PA saw so many things that I would never think of, or have any argument for asking for if the Ins Co objected. They research the rules of your particular policy, what is covered by it, and it is their job to explain to the Ins Co what needs to be done. It is relevant to note that they are absolutely NOT padding your claim (although the amount of the claim will increase dramatically); they are only claiming that which you are entitled to under your policy. The trouble for you has been that you don't really know what exactly you're entitled to; they do.

Just for your reference, here are the items approved for a room that had sustained fire, smoke and heat damage and fireman-busted windows --
...Batt insulation
...Acoustic plaster over metal lath
...Paint the walls and ceiling -- two coats
...Seal floor or ceiling joist system
...Seal stud wall for odor control
...Ceiling fan and light -- standard grade
...Baseboard, 4" with cap and shoe
...Paint baseboard with cap and/or shoe
...Carpet pad
...Carpet, 10% waste added for carpet
...Interior door unit -- standard grade
...Paint door slab only -- 2 coats per side
...Paint door/window trim and jamb -- 2 coats (per side)
...Casing 2-1/4"
...Paint casing, one coat
...Wood window, double-hung, 10-15 sf
...Seal and paint wood window (per side)
...Window sill
...Seal and paint window sill
...Rewire - average residence - copper wiring
...Door knob - interior - standard grade
...Clean radiator unit
...Prime and paint radiator unit

I should also note that the first contractor I had look at the place (who wanted to "work with" the Ins Co, and who would repair the place for whatever amount he and the Ins Co agreed upon) would have used drywall to do the repairs, even though I have plaster walls throughout the building. So his estimate (and the Ins Co's outlay) would have been a lot lower than repairing/replacing the plaster, which is what I was entitled to under the policy.

It is also interesting to note that the Ins Co often asks you to run around getting quotes from contractors to determine the claim amount; this is in order to protect themselves -- that way, if an item needing repair is missed, or if the repair fails in the future, they are insulated from liability -- you identified and contracted for the work, not them.

It is a game with a stacked deck -- an amateur (you) against the pros (Ins Co), and you don't even really understand the rules. Get someone on your side to level the playing field. When the fire happened, I didn't even call my Ins Co directly; I called the PA I'd used 10 years ago, he contacted them, and within 3 weeks of the fire we had a check. (Of course, the repairs are a different story... that's still not quite finished... And the repair costs that I've tallied up have been running pretty close to the Public Adjuster's amounts.)

That is def. the direction I want to go. Are there PAs in every town?? I am having trouble locating one in west TEXAS? thanks

Originally Posted by arlen fisher

Are there PAs in every town?? I am having trouble locating one in west TEXAS? thanks

My PA's website says he's a member of the National Association of Public Insurance Adjusters; their website is napia.com National Association of Public Insurance Adjusters - NAPIA

They have a search feature, by state. Texas came back with the following:

Member … (City)
Adjusters Group, LLC
Adjusters Group, LLC … (Addison )
Adjusters International Corp. - CO
Affiliated Adjusters, Inc. … (Highland Village)
Alex N. Sill Adjustment Company
Baldwin Company, Inc., The
Beneke Company/AI, The … (Dallas)
Beneke/Adjusters International … (Austin)
Charles R. Tutwiler & Associates, Inc.
Continental Adjusters, Inc. … (Dallas)
Goodman-Gable-Gould Company/AI, The
Greenspan Adjusters International, Inc.
Greenspan Company/AI, The
Jansen International, L.L.C. … (Dallas)
Jansen International, L.L.C. … (Houston)
Krone & Company … (Magnolia)
Kubala and Company … (Houston)
Main Line Adjustment Company
Matrix Business Consulting Inc.
Morrison & Morrison, Inc. … (League City)
Pennington & Associates … (San Antonio)
Quality Claims Management Corporation
RHI Claims Specialist … (Spring)
Stewart-Johnson and Associates, Inc.
Unity Adjustments
Young Adjustment Company Inc.

They say: "This list includes NAPIA members licensed to practice in the state as well as those members who maintain offices in the state. Members listed without a city listing are licensed, but do not have an office in this state. " (so I guess those are more national firms?)

If you do this same search online, the list above will include links to more info about the member, like phone, email address, and website.

Good luck!

Oh, and at least here in Pennsylvania, Public Adjuster's fees are not state-governed; they're subject to negotiation. Percentage usually goes down for bigger claims. For my 3-BR apartment fire claim, I paid a 15% fee to the PA. (Although one firm had quoted me as high as 30%. So it pays to shop around/negotiate.)

Not sure about the rules and norms in TX...

Thanks Ritter - I'm on it

Ok Gents - I have contacted a PA from a close by city and all looks good!! By the way , I knocked about 8 holes in the walls and found smoke stained insulation in EVERY one. I was amazed at how much smoke got in these voids. And to think the insurance adj. told me there was no way the smoke penetrated any other walls . I want to thank each of you for helping in this matter. I have learned lots of good info. BIG THANKS

I agree with contacting an attorney. I haven't seen any pictures either. An attorney will be able to interpret your insurance policy fairly for you. Also take pictures of your own. Pictures from an adjustor may only focus on what they want to fix or repair. Just my opinion, but iti seems like a lot of hanky panky to me.

Yeah- As much as I don't want to, seems like its comming to that.. I spoke to my local ins agent today as a last attempt to get along-should hear back from him tomorrow. Will keep ya posted thanks

Arlen,

Before contacting an attorney, contact and work with your PA (Public Adjuster).

The attorney will cost you a lot more, and quite possibly be less effective, than a public adjuster.

Absolutely, work with your PA. You don't need an attorney. Have you ever sued someone? It takes years and many $$. Your PA's job is to negotiate with the Ins Co, and they have the knowledge of what the Ins Co needs in order to approve your claim. I was told that the adjuster doesn't really care what he/she pays out (it's not their money), but they are subject to review by their bosses. If they have the proper reasoning and documentation in their files to support the claim they approved, they're covered. You and I of course, don't know exactly what they need, but the PA should. (If you're lucky, your PA or a member of their staff will even have once worked at whichever Ins Co you have, and will have explicit knowledge of how things work there.)

My first experience with a PA (when I brought them in because I was getting a major run-around from my Ins Co on a relatively small claim ($3500 or so) -- my agreement with the PA excluded the amount that the Ins Co had already offered me, when it came time to calculate the PA's percentage-based fee. In other words, they didn't take a cut of what I'd already achieved in my own negotiations with the Ins Co. They only earned any money if they improved the settled amount. So it was essentially risk-free to give them the opportunity to fix things. I was so pleased with their results, when the fire happened last summer they were the first ones I called -- I didn't even bother calling my Ins Co.

I did it!!!! I did it!!! I hired a PA. We are all meeting on monday am . I will post as soon as the meeting is over. Wow, I already feel better just knowing I have someone on my side...... Thanks for the direction gents.

Ok Gents - I had excellent luck with the PA!!! Its not finalized but he is confident that the insurance will replace all the rock and several other items that were overlooked... It was nice having someone there on my side. Once again THANKS to all for the good advice.....

Congrats Arlen. Hope it all works out.

Originally Posted by arlen fisher

Hello all. I was so excited when I found this site because I am in a situation and was looking for some expert advice. I had a large kitchen fire in a small 1 bdrm 600 sqft house. The 1 bedroom is upstairs and all other is down (bath,living kitchen). My big problem is that the ins co only wants to replace the sheetrock in the kitchen and says they can patch the pop holes(where the nails heated up and poped out a piece of the rock) and the tape where its comming loose in areas, and shoot some kills and all will be good... I have had 4 contractors out and each have suggested if not demanded that all the rock should come out. 1 to make sure the electrical is not compromised, 2 to remove the smoke saturated insulation, and 3 to do the job correctly. This fire got so hot that it blew out the bottom windows and all the plastics in the house were melted,even upstairs. Can yall give me some helpful advice and direction?? Thanks from TEXAS

Let the building inspector tell your insurance carrier that if the walls are not replaced, you will not get your CO.
The insurance carrier must restore the house to livable condition according to your building dept.

Originally Posted by Laura Castel

Let the building inspector tell your insurance carrier that if the walls are not replaced, you will not get your CO.
The insurance carrier must restore the house to livable condition according to your building dept.

Since this thread is over 7 years old, I'm pretty sure he has worked out this issue.