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Thread: Rough Framing

  1. #1
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Rough Framing

    I'm asking these questions under the wall framing category, but they apply to all facets of the house framing. I have exhausted my sources in search for some sort of standard(s) regarding rough framing tolerances in new homes. Maybe someone out there can help.

    I find nothing really useful in the IRC. What little is in the NAHB's "Residential Construction Performance Guidelines" is, of course, very thin and liberal. Since the TRCC's performance standards are really a lite version of that NAHB document, their stuff is of no assistance. The Home Owners Warranty Corporation's "Insurance/Warranty Documents" is also of little use, especially since HOW is defunct. Construction Sciences Research Foundation's "Framing and Sheathing" is now a document I can no longer find, though I used to refer to it.

    Are there ASTM standards regarding this that I am unaware of? Any suggestions?

    Thanks,

    Aaron

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Aaron, did you check Chapter 23 of the 2006 IBC?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Aaron, did you check Chapter 23 of the 2006 IBC?
    LCJ:

    I just now did on your suggestion, but don't find any real tolerances that I can use. Besides in residential work I will be hard put to pass of fIBC on these folks.

    I've got a garage header/lintel that is 1" out of level and cannot convince this builder to set it level. He has some walls that I can fit into the TRCC lax-ass standards of 3/8" out of plumb in 32". This means a 12' wall can be 1.68" out of plumb. Looks great from the front door . . . like maybe M.C. Escher was the architect - and builder . . .

    Aaron


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Growing up, upto 1/4" was ok. Now I see 1/2" to 3/4" and more off all the time on walls, window and door openings, etc. I've had many arguments with shitty contractors about this.
    I've looked for some sort of standard on this for a long time with no luck. I've also talked with some of the Arch.'s I've worked with without any success.
    It seems to be one of those items that didn't get written 'because everyone knows it is supposed to be level and plumb'.
    The developers always use the argument that all the finish components that follow will be installed level/plumb (yeah right) so it doesn't matter.
    OHD garage headers out of level? When do I see one that is level? I used to do a lot of garage insp. Carpenter A measures studs for one side of header and just cuts the other side at the same time. Forget about checking the concrete level. That's what the flashing is for to hide mistakes.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Is this of any help?

    It is from the USDA and covers "Rural Development", which, one would think, would be allowed to be 'worse' than "Urban Development".

    http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/MO/rhguides/guide1.pdf

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    It seems to be one of those items that didn't get written 'because everyone knows it is supposed to be level and plumb'.
    The developers always use the argument that all the finish components that follow will be installed level/plumb (yeah right) so it doesn't matter.
    Markus:

    Same f'ing builder, same house had the game room floor 1.75" out of level from one end to the other. They came in and floated it out with floor filler. TRCC guy passed it because it was now within their specs, regardless if he had troweled milk chocolate on there.

    It is from the USDA and covers "Rural Development", which, one would think, would be allowed to be 'worse' than "Urban Development".
    ECJ:

    That urban over rural argument might fly, but the standards are about the same. Any idea if HUD has something similar tucked away in their Everest of publications?

    Thanks guys,

    Aaron


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    That urban over rural argument might fly, but the standards are about the same.
    Yeah, I figured that the argument could be made for the same standard to apply, but, worst case, if the argument I gave held up for urban being better than rural, then the rural is a pretty tough standard to beat:

    (underlining is mine)
    DEFICIENCY: Out of plumb walls.
    CONSTRUCTION STANDARD: Walls should not be more than 1/2 inch out of plumb for any 8 foot vertical measurement.
    BUILDER CORRECTION: Builder to repair to meet the above standard.

    Any idea if HUD has something similar tucked away in their Everest of publications?
    Did not find one for urban, but that does not mean some more thorough searching might not be able to find one.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    CONSTRUCTION STANDARD: Walls should not be more than 1/2 inch out of plumb for any 8 foot vertical measurement.


    ECJ:

    Just sit and picture what a house built barely within theses standards would look like. I did this once when the NAHB first set out their remodelers standards and once again when TRCC plagiarized/diluted them. Here's what I came up with. Trouble is, they did this one this way on purpose. Juan and Jose are trying to make the square, plumb and level. The concepts just don't translate well, I guess. Just one big f'ing fiesta/siesta thing with them . . .

    Aaron

    Last edited by Aaron Miller; 05-17-2008 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Aaron,

    That house would still sell for a couple of mil. over there in the arty district around White Rock or the Oak Lawn area.

    rick


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    He has some walls that I can fit into the TRCC lax-ass standards of 3/8" out of plumb in 32".
    That's 6/8" (3/4") in 64" and 9/8" (1-1/8") in 96": i.e., 1-1/8 inch out of plumb for that given 8 foot measurement.

    Compare that to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    DEFICIENCY: Out of plumb walls.
    CONSTRUCTION STANDARD: Walls should not be more than 1/2 inch out of plumb for any 8 foot vertical measurement.
    BUILDER CORRECTION: Builder to repair to meet the above standard.
    *THAT'S* what I'm referring to - that USDA Rural Standard allows *less than half* what you have.

    And, by your wording, "He has some walls that I can fit into", you are indicating that you have *other walls* 'which do not even fit into that'. Meaning that the USDA Rural Standard is *much* more stringent.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Meaning that the USDA Rural Standard is *much* more stringent.
    ECJ:

    Agreed, but there's nothing there to address the header I'm interested in leveling. And, it will be a r-e-a-l s--t--r--e--t--c----h substituting USDA standards for IRC.

    But I will certainly try . . .

    Aaron


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    it will be a r-e-a-l s--t--r--e--t--c----h substituting USDA standards for IRC.
    Aaron,

    Yeah, but ... you've r-e-a-l-l-y s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d some things before.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rough Framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Yeah, but ... you've r-e-a-l-l-y s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d some things before.
    ECJ:

    Guilty as charged.

    Aaron


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