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  1. #131
    Randy Evans's Avatar
    Randy Evans Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:45 PM.

  2. #132

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Randy –

    I think if you search out Mr. Breedlove’s previous posts, you will find that he has a lot in common with Mr. Gerhart.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  3. #133
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    So Mr. Gerhart has been a Radon Measurement Provider for over 6 years?

    "Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." Leo Durocher
    Bruce Breedlove
    www.avaloninspection.com

  4. #134
    Kent Potter's Avatar
    Kent Potter Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    I don't believe Radon Al even knew of any radon issues until Paul Harvey brought it up last year advertising radon detectors for the home. That is when all this really started for this go around.


  5. #135
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    So now Bruce is going to be painted with the "loony" brush for pointing out the obvious?

    Myself, I am going to use Cao's position to start advocating people shoot themselves on frequent occasions with small caliber weapons to immunize themselves from large caliber gun fire. How about using a cigarette lighter on your hand? Might prevent lots of fire fatalities. Perhaps advocating "small" car crashes to ward off injury when a real one occures?

    And Kent, you are partially right, wrong time frame. When Lenny Elbon pointed out this issue to me in March of 2006, I kind of cringed. I knew long ago that soil based Radon was a risk, and I had heard the granite /Radon thing eight or ten years. I cringed because I didn't think it could be proven. I soon learned that it could and had been proven.

    Cao,
    let's assume for a second that you are more right than wrong. Why does the EPA website not agree with you? Why did BEIR VII stated that it looked at the Hormesis claims and rejected them? Can you provide one scientific, peer reviewed study that proves Hormesis is a real theory and not a crackpot sceme to keep exposure levels as high as possible?

    I was told by the president of Air Chek, one of the countries largest Radon labs, that the Spokane WA and the Iowa study showed increased cancer rates with increased Radon. I have not read the Spokane study yet, will soon, so I can't vouch for that one.

    Now, without sarcasm, can you explain why the two studies above and the two large organizations have such opposite public positions than your own?


    On the March 2008 study. To start with it was not published after peer reiview. Then the MIA paid for the thing. Helloooooo!

    I'll post about the gaping holes in the thing tonight. One of the guys that Dr. Chyi quoted in his study is one of our guys, and he said it had some issues that would prevent it from being published.

    Dr. Chyi got offended when I sent him a copy and asked if the furnished report was the actual report given to the MIA. to show the difference,Dr. Steck is still sending me stuff from his work that was done 20 years ago, even pointed out the weak points (sample size mostly).

    One guy clams up, gets mad. The other spends a lot of time reconstructing the data for me, answering questions on it, and even said he would try to find an original hard copy for me by the AARST meeting.

    I ask, which is the most believable?

    By the way, Curtis Marburger is a stoner from the SFA site. I'll have to look at their Dark Room info to see which side of the room he is on, the cover it up side or the admit it and deal with it side.

    On that note, Kent, now that you know that I know that the SFA has admitted the existance of both hot granite and the seriousness of the issue, exactly why are you here saying this is not a problem?

    Did your leaders not say they found granite hot enough to box up and bury? Weren't they warning that if the SFA didn't admit the truth, the media would brand them as liars? Was there not mention of being sued into the stone age? I believe bankruptcy was brought up.

    If you admit that there can be high radiation, why are you refusing to admit the possiblity of high Radon? You do understand that it is close to a linear relationship?


  6. #136
    Randy Evans's Avatar
    Randy Evans Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #137
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Picked up my radon / granite tester today.

    Ready to make those extra bucks.


    Rick

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  8. #138
    Kent Potter's Avatar
    Kent Potter Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Al, Are you ready to admit that not all radiation is Urananium produced? Of course there is a near linear relationship for radon! You fail to acknowledge that there are even other radioactive elements at play here. Hence, my new name for you, Radon Al.

    I have been in the stone business nearly my whole life and have actually gone to the trouble of learning the geology behind it's formation. The SFA nor myself have ever stated that there is no radiation or emitted radon in granite, quite the opposite. This has been known since the late 1800's!

    The difference here is this. You are an alarmist and publicity hound who is more worried about who's on your side! You search the archives for research results that fit your needs, discount the ones that don't and then scream we are all going to die from radiation and/or radon poisoning and those of us that don't will be sued into oblivion. The end result? Everyone is looking at the lunatic at the top of the hill.

    By the way, still waiting on the credentials that qualify you to even be speaking about the effects of radiation or radon. Did you go to college? What was your major? I'm here to seek some knowledge, why are you here?


  9. #139
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Potter View Post
    Al, Are you ready to admit that not all radiation is Urananium produced?

    Kent, where did you come up with the idea that I ever said that? This is the classic straw man arguement, claim your opponent said something, then prove him wrong.

    I assume you are refering to Potassium based radiation in some granites. If so, save yourself a lot of trouble because we aren't too worried about it either. A little concern.

    If you study the studies (heh heh!), you will find that most report three sources, Radium (Ra), Thorium (Th), and Potassium (P 40).

    Of course Radium is the sixth step in the Uranium decay chain, 19 decay steps in all. Lots of Gamma radiation is released from the Uranium decay chain, and of course Radium is the decay step above Radon. So we are concerned about the amount of Radium present as well as the Uranium.

    Radium decays by a mix of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma decay. If a person was exposed to 1 pCi/G of Radium, 4 people per 10,000 exposed for a lifetime would develop a fatal cancer. The Houston granite top had 1,115 pCi/G of Radium (two isotopes, 228 & 226), so expect 446 extra fatal cancers per 1,000 people exposed for a lifetime. That is huge, and the data from studying Radium dial painters and Radium chemist has proved the risk.

    Next is Thorium, which is the 9th step in a 20 step decay chain. Strangely enough, the Thorium decay chains start at Californium 252. Don't ask me why, hadn't figured that out yet. Regardless, Thoron, another radioactive gas is the 5th decay step below Thorium.

    Thoron is usually not considered a problem because it most likely decays before it enters a home IF FROM A SOIL BASED SOURCE. It will decay into Polonium before it is breathed in if from a soil based source. But, what if the source is 12" under a child's nose, or 18" from an adult's nose? Is it a danger then? No one knows, no one ever thought anyone would put a Thoron source into homes on a massive scale.

    Thoron is not much of an external risk, only a small amount of the radiation is Gamma. However Thorium is taken into the body more easily by inhalation than by ingestion, meaning once again that fabricators are the most at risk. The lifetime excess cancer risk is one forth to one half that of Radium. The Houston slab lab report showed 115 pCi/G, normal soil has around 2 pCi/G.

    Potassium 40 is not considered a huge external danger because as it decays into Calcium 40, 89% of the radiation is Beta radiation with NO ATTENDENT GAMMA. The other 11% iof Potassium 40 decays into Argon gas and that releases a Gamma Ray. So only a small percentage (11%) of the radiation from Potassium is dangerous externally. With a very large amount of Potassium 40, cataracts and skin problems may be possible from the Beta, but it would take quite a bit. Internal exposure, dust inhaled or ingested, is another matter. The body thinks potassium is calcium, and it is readily absorbed and distributed in the body. Think bone seeker..

    The external exposure risk for Potassium 40 in a soil at 1 pCi/G would be 4 in 100,000 extra cancers for a lifetime risk. The Houston granite countertop lab report found 54 pCi/G. Radiation dose is linear according to the consensus of experts (apparently not Cao), so that would be a 2.16 in 1,000 excess cancer risk, plus any internal risk form leaching (water or cleaning solutions).

    Argonee National Lab is a great resource to learn more about the paticular radiation isotopes.

    Besides, we are using scintillators for testing, Gamma only, which means we are using only 11% of the potassium radiation as a risk factor.

    Dude, it doesn't matter if you bring up Potassium based radiation or not.


    Of course there is a near linear relationship for radon! You fail to acknowledge that there are even other radioactive elements at play here. Hence, my new name for you, Radon Al.

    All of a sudden the stoners are all over the radiation issues, admitting them, yet they still want to argue with me?????

    I have been in the stone business nearly my whole life and have actually gone to the trouble of learning the geology behind it's formation. The SFA nor myself have ever stated that there is no radiation or emitted radon in granite, quite the opposite. This has been known since the late 1800's!

    But when it was brought up, you guys attacked everyone that mentioned it, called us liars. You ridiculed, that is a fact easilyi proven. You banned me, Joe, and David because we dared to ask questions about it or even say you should take the issues seriously. Don't start claiming that the SFA never denied these issues as being health risks. Even Randy has to admit the stoners, including SFA members, fought tooth and nail to supress this discussion on the consumer sites. Now they are coming here, say hi to Curtis for me.

    The difference here is this. You are an alarmist and publicity hound who is more worried about who's on your side! You search the archives for research results that fit your needs, discount the ones that don't and then scream we are all going to die from radiation and/or radon poisoning and those of us that don't will be sued into oblivion.
    Okay, how dumb do you have to be to know that I have access to your darkroom and can quote directly from it yet still make these claims like I am the only one saying them.

    "one more thing.....I tested a piece of granite slab that was so damn hot it should have been put in a lead box and buried. This is no joke. It could have been on a countertop. I think the radon thing is idiotic....The radiation thing....well it is another matter. Alberto Antolini (not cambria or silestone) was explaining to my supplier the the african quarry in question is right next to a damn uranium mine. Mark Lauzon, SFA"

    "Post subject: Re: Message to our Members Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:19 pm

    Some people believe the earth is flat...that does not make it so.I watched the meter go right off the charts, we reviewed alot of data....how would you like some radon home inspector to find that crap? And then your customer sues you into the stone age....you wind up paying not only for the tear out, replacement.....you get a judgement against you for millions of dollars for the exposure of her life dose of radiation. You lose your shop....your house....and then have the joy of filing banktruptcy. THIS IS REAL! IT WILL HAPPEN! We can claim ignorance for our past.....we can not do so going forward.I don\'t think you telling the judge \"I still think granite is safe\" is going to fly. Mark Lauzon, SFA"


    "Post subject: Re: Message to our Members Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:01 pm

    Mark and Ron - Please do not post in a public forum that certain granites may not be safe and needs to be tested. This would be disasterous. We cannot claim ignorance for the past. One lawsuit from an ambulance chaser would cost thousands to defend. The EPA states that their is not any significant risk. Keep that line until more data is revealed. Dan K, Stone Top"


    "Post subject: Re: Message to our Members Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:17 pm

    Think about this...The issue is in the press....the radon & radiation inspection crowd is out there testing this stuff.....the American Bar Association is gearing up for law suits and issuing briefs on how to do this.As this moves forward (think about the mold thing a few years back) It is going to keep coming up in the news...To say all granites are fine is simply not the truth. The press will eat our lunch if we continue to deny this. Can you imagine the headlines when some reporter flys to Africa films a uranium mine and then walks a few hundred yards over to a stone quarry?It is coming.


    I do not want granite that is loaded with uranium in MY house. I do not want to install it in others houses....and I sure as hell do not want to NOT know.Not all of that stuff coming out of that quarry is super hot....some of it IS.

    we know that some of these African granites are possibly a disaster.

    Saying that all stone is safe will fuel the fire more.....we (like the MIA) will lose credibility in our customers eyes. The challenge will be how do we do this....without turning it into a debacle. We must say this....or we are liars. Deliberate omission of fact is the exact thing as a lie. Mark Lauzon, SFA"

    Kent, some of the guys at Fabnet said these guys talked like they were my half brother or something. You need to understand that they are saying what I have been saying all along.


    The end result? Everyone is looking at the lunatic at the top of the hill.

    Kent, I would say that it must be you they are looking at.

    By the way, still waiting on the credentials that qualify you to even be speaking about the effects of radiation or radon. Did you go to college? What was your major? I'm here to seek some knowledge, why are you here?
    I am here to provide some information that few understand. Like it or not I have had years to prepare for this, learning as I go. You and most of the stoners have yet to understand what we are talking about.

    Did you go to college to learn to fabricate stone? How many years? Got the diploma? You either know something or you don't.

    Now, you send nicer private emails than you post in public, but I will definetly say that you aren't the guy to ask for help from me. I wouldn't trust someone that acts as you have acted.

    Go away or quit attacking the facts. You have been thourghly discredited.


  10. #140
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    The "March 2008 study" being referenced isn't Chyi, but this one:

    Thompson RE; Nelson DF; Popkin JH; Popkin Z, Case-Control Study Of Lung Cancer Risk From Residential Radon Exposure In Worcester County, Massachusetts, Health Physics, March 2008, Volume 94, Issue 3
    Okay, I found it.

    That is interesting,

    1.00, 0.53, 0.31, 0.47, 0.22, and 2.50 , The adusted odds ratio was all over the place. I can't make out exactly how the thing leans cause there isn't enough info on that little blurb available, but usually less than one means a protective result, parity (1.00) means you can't tell,and the 2.5 means that the Radon caused the cancer.

    The Iowa study said this "The observed risk estimates suggest that cumulative ambient radon exposure presents an important environmental health hazard". So these two cancel each other out, but the wikipedia listing of studies over whelmingly support the Iowa study.

    Until more studys prove otherwise, the Worchester study has to be taken with a grain of salt. It is interesting, I would like to see the entire study so see the actual conclusions of the authors.

    Last edited by Al Gerhart; 08-26-2008 at 05:38 PM.

  11. #141
    Randy Evans's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:46 PM.

  12. #142
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    I'll ask around, someone at one of the labs or maybe Dr. Steck has a copy he will share.


  13. #143
    Randy Evans's Avatar
    Randy Evans Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:46 PM.

  14. #144
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Dr. Steck sent me a copy of the Worchester, MA radon study. They did show a "dip" in the results that predicted lower cancer rates, however..... to get there, the study had to use simple Odds Ratio instead of the usual Adjusted Odds Ratio. They use the AOR for a reason, not using it poked a giant hole in their "dip".

    The study also said that the "dip" was not statistically significant. The conclusion was that Hormesis shouldn't be dismissed because there was a chance that it could possibly be proved some day.

    Shooting blanks here .....

    Anyone see the NBC story yesterday? The Today show?


  15. #145
    Randy Evans's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:46 PM.

  16. #146
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    But the MIA side was represented by a paid consultant who studied some studies that others did. And the guy was not experienced in Radon or radiation.

    If you read his "white paper", you will notice that he didn't include the MIA/Chyi study which showed Crema Bordeaux at 67% of outdoor air Radon levels, when Mccarthy claimed the hottest granite ever tested was at 300 times lower. 33% low or 300 times lower, which is it?

    Same thing on granite Radon emitted compared to the EPA action limits, Chyi claimed 13 times less than the EPA action levels, and McCarthy claimed 1,000 times less. 13 times less or 1,000 times less, which is it?


    Liebert and Llope aren't being paid by anyone.

    And Dr. Steck and almost everyone else including the EPA says radon does have risks, half pack of cigarettes a day from 4 pCi/L. That .27 pCi/L from Chyi's Cream Bordeaux result is like everyone in the home smoking 246 cigarettes per year. Do the math.


  17. #147
    Randy Evans's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:46 PM.

  18. #148
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    No, the science is there showing a danger at 4 pCi/L .

    Read the Iowa study and the Spokane study. Except for a few fringe nut jobs, the link between Radon and lung cancer are accepted world wide.

    There is no debate on this matter. Only some crackpots making themselves look foolish. You really think that the BEIR committes with their hundreds of scientific organziations involved are wrong?


  19. #149
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Except for a few fringe nut jobs,


    Only some crackpots making themselves look foolish.
    Al,

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but, some fringe nut jobs and some crackpots said:

    - The universe DID NOT revolve around the earth, that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

    - That the Earth WAS NOT flat, that the Earth was round.

    - That sanitation WAS critical in stopping disease and infection, that not washing hands and tools before surgery and between patients WAS causing infections and deaths in patients.

    - The list could go on and on, those "fringe nut jobs" and "some crackpots" have been proven correct in so many major cases, which are now are taken for granted as being "What? Why? Why would any have thought any differently? It is *just so obvious* that those are given truths."

    Think about it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #150
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    I was going to pass this up but I do have to make a statement.

    It seems just from the difference of opinion on this site and the difference of opinion on about the entire radon/radiation groups from about everywhere has to tell that even the most simplest folks or the highly technical folks should hold their final opinion until all can come to a consensus. When I am asked by clients "what about radon" I say "what about it"

    If the scientific groups cannot come to an opinion or general consensus then how could I, or any home inspector or radon tester give you any kind of informed opinion that could possibly mean anything to anyone.

    Not just radon from counter tops but the radon from counter tops has opened back up even the legitimacy of even if radon at low levels is even causing cancer unless you never have ventilation of any kind in your home and you take the highest reading in your home and sleep on it.

    It is good to have conversation and good to have an opinion but the reality is there is no real opinion that coincides with other opinions. Take all the testing agencies and individuals that are spouting their opinion, put them in a room and when they come out in agreement then and only then at that time should you give your client an opinion.


  21. #151
    Kent Potter's Avatar
    Kent Potter Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Al, When are you going to give this up?! Radon emitted from granite is mitigated by the natural exchange of air in the home. The American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air-Conditioning Engineering (ASHRAE) recomends that the air in homes needs to be exchanged 35% by volume every hour. Most homes in the US are far worse at around 60%. This doesn't leave much room for radon or anything else to accumulate to dangerous levels.


  22. #152
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
    Al Gerhart Guest

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Al,

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but, some fringe nut jobs and some crackpots said:

    - The universe DID NOT revolve around the earth, that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

    - That the Earth WAS NOT flat, that the Earth was round.

    - That sanitation WAS critical in stopping disease and infection, that not washing hands and tools before surgery and between patients WAS causing infections and deaths in patients.

    - The list could go on and on, those "fringe nut jobs" and "some crackpots" have been proven correct in so many major cases, which are now are taken for granted as being "What? Why? Why would any have thought any differently? It is *just so obvious* that those are given truths."

    Think about it.
    Now Jerry,

    That is a good arguement. I respect people that put that much effort into defending their views. Excellent try.

    What I would point out is that every one of the three examples
    was proven using sciencetific observation and research. In all three cases you brought up there were real world (empirical) data that showed the earth was not flat, the earth revolved around the sun, and that washing the hands helped stop the spread of disease.

    In our example of Hormesis, there is not one study available that has shown the Hormetic effect from Radiation. Industrial Hygeinists say that some chemicals do have Hormetic effects at low dose, just like snake venom can make one imune to that particular snake bite.

    I kept an open mind when Randy brought up this study, went to some length to question Dr. Steck about it and read the entire study. It is obvious that the author of the study wanted to prove a hormetic effect from radon, but to get it he had to resort to improper statistical methods.

    In a conversation such as this, one can claim anything (think Cao) but in a published study, every word and nuance has to pass the peer review committee. In this case the author was able to bring in his pet theory, but he HAD to point out the weak statistical method to arrive at the conclussion. This is a prime example of publishing a negative result in a study, in other words, publishing a study that did not answer the question or prove the theory that the study was intended for. Sure it keeps another researcher from traveling the same path to a dead end, but it is a poor use of time for most.

    Opposed to the Coa's of this world, the majority (consensus, or collective agreement while allowing for some individual variation) of organizations and govts believe what this site believes.
    Orange County Health Department - EVH - Radon Information

    Look for the Risk evaluation chart about a quarter of the way down.

    Google this "EPA Radon half a pack of cigarette" and look at all the state Radon depts that say the same thing, 4 pCi/L is the same as smoking a half pack of cigarettes a day. No one can argue that Hormesis is taken seriously by the majority of the scientists and organizations.

    Now, I will keep an open mind if someone brings forth a study that using the normal methods of testing and statiscical analysis shows that Radon has a Hormetic effect. Please don't link to an abstract like the previous one, read it and tell me where it says that there is positively a hormetic effect. Then link to it or send me a copy.

    Ted, good points too. In this case though, there is a consensus. Don't confuse consensus with 100% appoval of the theory, consensus is the majority opinion or the general opinion. And scientific fact is not opinion, the problem arises when someone uses their opinion as fact without backing it up.

    I agree a debate is good, it educates those that have wrong opinions on the issues and sharpens the arguement of the facts. This only works with folks that will provide studies that back up their claims. I agree opinion against opinion is a senseless arguement, not a debate.

    Kent,

    I like it that your side has finaly gotten the facts right on ventilation rates in homes. The MIA was claiming 6 air changes per hour were the norm, now you are saying .33 which is more in line with the truth. Actual rates run from .1 to .5 , so I'll applaud your use of .33 for discussion of the AVERAGE home.

    Yes, ventillation rates dilute the Radon emission. The volume of the home really is of no concern unless the ratio of countertop granite is out of whack with the cubic volume of the home. But, if the ventilation rate is enough to prohibit buildup, why did one of the inspectors on this very site find above average levels of Radon in a home with granite countertops?

    Wasn't it like below 3 pCi/L in the basement, 5.5 pCi/L in the kitchen, and around 3 pCi/L in the second floor hallway? Using the normal rule of thumb, they should have found 1.5 in the kitchen and .75 pCi/L maximum in the second story.

    What about the levels being found all over the country in the same manner? The Houston case had elevated levels where there is extremely small amounts of soil based Radon, the Sugarman case of 100 pCi/L in the kitchen (several thousand pCi/L when a meter was placed under a bowl) after 6 pCi/L was found in the basement, the Hampton VA case, 2 pCi in the basement and 7 pCi/L in the granite top kitchen?

    You are assuming that the air in a home will mix completely and that the Radon emitted is below a certain level. The MIA's latest "expert" claims that 30 is the highest emmanation found from granite, conviently ignoring the MIA's previous study (Chyi) showing far higher emmanation rates.

    In a couple of weeks Kitto and Brodhead will both revel their research at the AARST convention. We will be there, but I have some of the results already, in the hundreds of pCi/SF/Hr.

    Kent, you guys had to admit that there were extremely hot granites being found, said that some needed to be boxed up and buried. If you take the time to google "Radon radiation ratio" you will likely find plenty of studies that correlate the radiation level to Radon emission in stone studied. Once you realize that where the radiation is Uranium based, there will be Radon present in equilibrium, and where the radiation comes from Thorium, there will be Thoron gas in equilibrium, you might stop this senseless objection to the facts.

    Do some research before you argue, you will be more effective and might stop fighting the facts.


  23. #153
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    What I would point out is that every one of the three examples was proven using sciencetific observation and research. In all three cases you brought up there were real world (empirical) data that showed the earth was not flat, the earth revolved around the sun, and that washing the hands helped stop the spread of disease.
    Al,

    Incorrect.

    The "empirical data", the "scientific data" *of the day*, had previously proven that those persons were nut cakes and flakes, that the theories (which is all that their work was until *they* proved otherwise), and the scientific standards of those times, all "proved" that the nut cakes were nut cakes. Only later, and with much resistence, were those nut cakes accepted into the mainstream and their theories believed and used to replace the previous theories.

    Until the nut cakes proved the existing "scientific and empirical" *facts* to be *fiction*, the existing scientific standards were accepted as empirical *fact*.

    Even then, some of those nut cakes were derided for their silly theories by those who were in power at those times.

    I am not one to say which side of this argument and discussion is the "nut cake", time will do that.

    I am simply stating that, in many cases, those who defend 'the status quo' end up being "the nut cakes".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #154
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Jerry,
    of course the obvious, but those who pioneered the three theories had some sort of empirical information that lead them to believe they were right. Had scientific methods been used, the existing theories wouldn't have existed.

    In this case, no one can point to any reputable science to buttress the Hormesis theory for radiation. At best we have some people that want to minimize the risk of radition so as to sell hot granite countertops, nuclear power, and nuclear medicine. I support the use of both of the later, but don't see the need to minimize radiation risk in the face of overwhelming evidence.

    I have no problem for people believing what they wish, but using it to advocate the continued sale of high radiation level granite is irresponsible. Not saying you are on that side, I am saying those that are on that side are pushing profit over safety.

    Here is another view of the matter.

    YouTube - Granite & Radon


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Here is another view of the matter.

    YouTube - Granite & Radon

    Al,

    "Here is another view"? No, that is "your view", not "another" view.

    However, the last words she said were the most true of everything anyone says ... "There is always something to worry about."

    And, yes, there *IS ALWAYS* something to "worry about".

    You can drink too much water, you can not drink enough water, you can work your heart too much, you can not work your heart enough ... "There is ... ALWAYS ... SOMETHING ... to worry about."

    A couple of years ago it was mold. KILLER TOXIC MOLD at that.

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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .
    ."There is always something to worry about."

    . KILLER TOXIC MOLD .
    .
    And bees, " Killer BEES ! "
    .
    Life as we Knew it is Over.
    .



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  27. #157
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:46 PM.

  28. #158
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Potter View Post
    Al, To what extent are you an expert in this feild? Do you have any formal training in these matters which can be substantiated by diploma, certificate, or license?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Potter View Post
    Al, ...
    ... still waiting on the credentials that qualify you to even be speaking about the effects of radiation or radon. Did you go to college? What was your major?

    Bump. For me, this "debate" is little more than white noise in cyberspace until those posts are answered.

    It's long been known that granite emits radiation and radon. What I want to know about a stone countertop installed in a home is:

    1) What type and what level of radiation emitted from a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    2) What level of radon emitted from a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    3) What level of radon in a room that has a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    Do credible answers to these questions exist at this time?


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Chew View Post
    It's long been known that granite emits radiation and radon. What I want to know about a stone countertop installed in a home is:

    1) What type and what level of radiation emitted from a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    2) What level of radon emitted from a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    3) What level of radon in a room that has a stone countertop is ok and not ok? What is the protocol for measuring it? Who determined this and how was it determined?

    Do credible answers to these questions exist at this time?

    Jeez Brandon ... you are seeking scientific answers to questions in a scientific manner, backed up with scientific data ... no one has offered that up here ... now why would you throw those kind of questions and ideas into the fray?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  30. #160
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    Al, why are you stuck on hormesis? It's irrelevant. Does exposure at low levels, including the EPA level of 4 pCi/L, cause disease? Yes or no. It's the only thing that could possibly matter about granite countertops, unless somebody is alleging that hormesis is a good reason to buy granite.

    The alleged inadequacy of the science supporting the idea that a little radon is good for you has no bearing whatsoever on the alleged inadequacy of the science supporting the idea that a little radon is bad for you. If you were to get everyone to agree that you had utterly demolished hormesis as a theory, it wouldn't have advanced your cause one iota.
    Randy,
    I am not stuck on Hormesis, but it is being thrown out there as a red herring. If the EPA claims that 4 pCI/L is like smoking a half pack of cigarettes a day, and if one believes that cigarette smoking causes health problems, then exactly what do you not understand?

    The EPA and just about everyone else agrees that radiation dangers, including the radiation present in Radon, has no threshold and is linear in its effects (LNT theory). So for anyone to claim that there are no health risks from low level Radon is to ignore the consensus of present science. It also follows that any who claim the issue isn't settled needs to read some studies and take a look at the EPA website on Radon. Good lord, they call it the second leading cause of Lung Cancer!

    Here is one of the things that Dr. Steck had to say in an email to me today on the MA study.

    "From a retrospective radon-related exposure reconstruction, this study has a bunch of problems, poor QA radon performance, gaps in history and of course, the small sample size. Their conclusions are unwarranted in my view, more hype and spin than substance."



    Brandon, good questions.

    1) Radiation is radiation, that coming from stone is coming from the same elements as those used in X Rays or nuclear fuel.

    There are no safe levels of radition, ALARA is the law of the land for radiation protection. If background is at 60 cpm and the granite with background is at 180 cpm (most granites will be at this level or above) then you have three times the background radiation present. The Health Physicists Society, the most conservative group on these matters, says that background radiation levels add 3 extra cancers per 10,000 exposed, so tripling the radiation would triple the excess cancers to 9 per 10,000 or .9 per 1,000 which is not a small risk.

    The protocols for measuring radiation are well known in other fields, just now entering the home inspection industry. This is not a need for invention, but to simply borrow established methods from other industries.

    2) Radon is Radon, same gas as from soil based Radon from the same radioactive decay of unstable elements. Some of the usual Radon measuring protocols will have to be changed due to the radiation present from a granite countertop, but the heart of the matter remains, if over 2 pCi/L, one should be concerned. For now home inspectors know about the possible risk, therefore they should be either testing for the problems or recomending testing so as to CYA.

    The only things that will be likely diffeent between soil based Radon and granite based Radon will be the likelyhood of concentrated dose from sitting at a granite surface and the likely hood that Thoron gas in this concentrated dose will be far more dangerous than any Thoron being exhaled from the soil.

    Questioning my credintials is pretty silly when all I am doing is refering to studies done by qualified researchers or datat on sites beyond reproach like the EPA. I would say that these same detractors aren't qualified to drive their car if they apply the same standards.

    Bottom line, the inspection community knows about the issue, they should either test or warn to test if they want to CYA.




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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post

    Bottom line, the inspection community knows about the issue, they should either test or warn to test
    .
    Wrong !

    My bottom lines.

    How, By Who and to What Standard?

    I don't conduct an Indoor Air Quality ( nor Guarantee ) such.

    Maybe I could Stop by your place of business and tell You What You Need to be Doing.

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  32. #162
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.



    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:47 PM.

  33. #163
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    I'm not an inspector..
    .
    Really?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    . We probably are abusing the good hospitality of this site,
    .
    Ya Think?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    Do you presume to criticize the Great Oz? Er, the Great Al?
    .
    So What's Your Story Steam Boat ?
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Anyone notice how these threads such as this one always gets started by a new member who asks a simple question or makes a statement and the whole thread then gets taken over by someone else.

    Where is the Jeff Spencer who started this tread? Not one response from him on the whole matter.

    Is this AL character maybe Jeff and just wants to answer his own questions?

    Funny he showed up on this thread and has been the most active on here with his rantings.

    I like the comment that he made. Inspectors should at least warn homebuyers of the potential danger. How about warning them about getting hit by an asteroid too? It could happen.

    Just a thought.

    rick


  35. #165
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-07-2008 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    How about warning them about getting hit by an asteroid too? It could happen.
    Rick,

    Have you noticed that many people say to check the radon level in the basement and compare it to the radon level in the kitchen?

    Aren't they aware that most accidents in the home are people falling down stairs? How else do you get to "the basement" is not using "the stairs"?

    Does that, therefore, infer that *measuring* radon levels is more dangerous than *the actual level* of radon?

    Maybe we should ban stairs, or encapsulate them in foam padding to reduce injuries?

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  37. #167
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Evans View Post
    Thanks.
    .
    Why are you here ?

    What is your ( In$urance or other ) Ax to Grind on this issue ?
    .

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  38. #168
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    edit.

    Last edited by Randy Evans; 09-19-2008 at 07:36 PM.

  39. #169

    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Good morning, Randy:

    I just noticed your private message and I responded. I never notice the private message thing, and so most private messages to me remain unread for extended periods; the best way to contact me is directly, or via public posts.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell


  40. #170
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Bernie,

    I think your question is a new one, if not this has already been said,

    The Radon is continually produced for millions of years. It doesn't stop so it continually renews the Radon.


  41. #171
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Looks like Cao has some new people to discredit.

    The AARST conference was this week and Radon from granite was the talk of the conference. Dr. Kitto reported as much as 24 pCi/L in a home, with ventilation cutting that in half. Dr. Steck confirmed that he has found high enough levels for serious concern. Bill Brodhead had calculations showing that air exchange levels can be far lower than ever thought possible, and he provided calculations of an average of 3 pCi/L in an example home, with 2 pCi/L in the bedroom and 4 pCi/L in the kitchen.

    Radon Symposium Research Papers and Presentations from all Previous AARST and EPA Radon Conferences

    Dr. Kitto's info was not published because the MIA is trying to get their hands on it before it is finished. His original study is posted in its place, and shows that most granite will raise a homes level under 1 pCi/L but it is possible to raise the Radon levels over 4 pCi/L.

    CRCPD is going to work on new standards for radiation and Radon in granite countertops.

    End of debate, gentlemen. Best warn consumers that a small percentage of granite countertops are dangerous so all granite countertops need to be tested.


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    End of debate, gentlemen.

    Wish it was, but you keep coming back and yelling "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! I must get to the King to tell him the sky is falling!"

    "End of debate,"

    If only ...

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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Bernie,

    I think your question is a new one, ----
    .
    He was just responding to Bernie's post made on 8-23.

    And couldn't work him in one of his next 17 posts until now.
    .

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  44. #174
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Jerry,

    If you have nothing to add to the conversation, why do you run your mouth so?

    This is hardly good for your reputation.

    Have you nothing better to do?

    Have you no convincing arguements at all?

    Have you no facts to prove that these scientists are wrong?


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    If you have nothing to add to the conversation, why do you run your mouth so?
    Al,

    Likewise, why do you insist on coming back yelling "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."?

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  46. #176
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    So in your opinion, providing proof from scientists on this issue is alarmist?

    More like you were on the wrong side of the issue and don't like the way it makes you look.

    Now, do you have anything constructive to add to this debate, or are you content to waste everyones time being unpleasant?


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Dr. Kitto's info was not published because the MIA is trying to get their hands on it before it is finished. His original study is posted in its place, and shows that most granite will raise a homes level under 1 pCi/L but it is possible to raise the Radon levels over 4 pCi/L.
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    So in your opinion, providing proof from scientists on this issue is alarmist?
    You call that "proof"?

    You want "proof" go make some tests which would "prove" it. Don't try to push a paper every one is not behind, just those who support your view point.

    Tell you what, do this:

    Go out and select a couple of houses with granite countertops in various geographical areas around the country.

    Measure the radon in those houses. Use the regular EPA protocols.

    Take out the granite countertops, install laminate counter tops, repeat radon tests.

    Take out the laminate countertops and install solid surface countertops, repeat radon tests.

    Take out the laminate countertops and install another type of countertop, repeat radon tests.

    Okay, that is *the first round of tests*.

    Now, re-install the granite (same granite, having removed it without breaking it), repeat radon tests.

    Repeat cycle with all the types of countertops and repeat radon tests.

    *IF* (and only *IF*) the second readings match the first reading countertop-type-to-countertop-type (repeatability of rest results) can you consider comparing test results *between* countertop-types.

    If you cannot get repeatability with the same materials, you as proving that the radon varies to great to make comparison between 'same material tests' and between 'different material tests'.

    Now, *IF* you get the required repeatability between tests for same material, *AND* the comparison between material types is significant, *ONLY THEN* have you been able to "prove" any thing.

    And that repeatability must be consistent throughout *ALL* the geographical locations.

    You want to give us "proof", go out and do that, THEN come back and yell the sky is falling, until, it's just an acorn fight and you got hit on the head with an acorn.

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  48. #178
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You call that "proof"?

    You want "proof" go make some tests which would "prove" it. Don't try to push a paper every one is not behind, just those who support your view point.

    Tell you what, do this:

    Go out and select a couple of houses with granite countertops in various geographical areas around the country.

    Measure the radon in those houses. Use the regular EPA protocols.

    Take out the granite countertops, install laminate counter tops, repeat radon tests.

    Take out the laminate countertops and install solid surface countertops, repeat radon tests.

    Take out the laminate countertops and install another type of countertop, repeat radon tests.

    Okay, that is *the first round of tests*.

    Now, re-install the granite (same granite, having removed it without breaking it), repeat radon tests.

    Repeat cycle with all the types of countertops and repeat radon tests.

    *IF* (and only *IF*) the second readings match the first reading countertop-type-to-countertop-type (repeatability of rest results) can you consider comparing test results *between* countertop-types.

    If you cannot get repeatability with the same materials, you as proving that the radon varies to great to make comparison between 'same material tests' and between 'different material tests'.

    Now, *IF* you get the required repeatability between tests for same material, *AND* the comparison between material types is significant, *ONLY THEN* have you been able to "prove" any thing.

    And that repeatability must be consistent throughout *ALL* the geographical locations.

    You want to give us "proof", go out and do that, THEN come back and yell the sky is falling, until, it's just an acorn fight and you got hit on the head with an acorn.
    Jerry,
    I don't expect you to agree with this, you have taken a position and now you aparently feel you can't admit the obvious without losing face. How sad, that exposes you as a weak person. But I will speak to the others on your wild excuses for not taking a PhD with the Dept of Health at New York State at his word.

    First off, it is moronic to think one needs to test laminate, solid surface, or any other type of countertop to "prove" anything. Only natural stone has shown to have enough Uranium or Raduim to generate Radon gas. Nor is it necessary to use different geographic areas.

    Now for some sort of legal constultant or expert witness or what ever it is that you claim to be, it is pretty ignorant not to understand that if you test the home for Radon prior to installation of the granite, it matters not if additional Radon coming from the soil. You've already baselined what was there already. Got that? Be it high or low, you just take it off the readings found with the granite countertop installed.

    Dr. Kitto gave that paper in front of a packed room, even the CRCPD (state radiation officials that meet at the same conference that AASRST holds) members skipped one of their sessions to be there to listen. Not one person challenged Dr. Kitto's methods or findings.

    No doubt you are far more educated and experienced than this group of radiation and Radon experts. Might I suggest that your talents are wasted here and would be better used by straightening out these two associations who by your standards must be complete idiots.

    And finally,

    "And that repeatability must be consistent throughout *ALL* the geographical locations."

    That statement is about the most obtuse statements I have read in a while. If a stone has a certain amount of Radium present, it will emit a certain amount of Radon and radiation. It doesn't matter if it is in NY or TX, CA or FL. It can be on Pikes Peak or Death Valley, it matters not one bit.

    Making statements that someone is saying "the sky is falling" is called the Straw Man arguement(misrepresenting your opponent’s argument). You think you are scoring cheap points by making a claim that your opponent has a ridiculous point of view, then poking holes in your imagined weak point. Another way of putting it in logical terms is "Argumentum ad hominem" or argueing that your opponent is an idiot.

    Regardless which dodge you are employing (assuming that you are clever enough to have a stratagey and not just blundering about), your use of these tactics merely shows that you have no arguements worth bringing to a discussion, perfering to be disrespectful instead.

    Were I an "expert witness", I would stay out of these sort of debates or at least think about my reputation for being intelligent enough to support any arguement in a court of law.


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    First off, it is moronic to think one needs to test laminate, solid surface, or any other type of countertop to "prove" anything. Only natural stone has shown to have enough Uranium or Raduim to generate Radon gas. Nor is it necessary to use different geographic areas.

    I guess that is true to someone who apparently never did any work in Quality Control, Research and Development, or Standards Laboratory ... otherwise you would know that you need to establish a basis between materials used for the same purpose, and to establish consistent measurements between tests conducted at different times, while establishing a base to compare to.

    Otherwise, ... all you will have will be just a bunch of meaningless numbers which will allow people to read into them whatever they want, as meaningless as that will be, ... wait ... I bet that is what you are looking for ... meaningless data numbers you and others with your point of view can manipulate into what you want them to say.

    Now I get it ... you want meaningless number you can manipulate ... Dang, and I thought you were actually trying to find out something.

    See, I don't know anything much about radon, but I do know how you can "prove" your theory, ... or disprove it ... but I suspect you do not want to take that chance, meaning you really do not want "to know", you just want something to back up your theory.

    Did you know ...

    ... that the world *is not* "flat"?

    Really. I'm not kidding.

    But then, eyes taint got no coolege edumacation teither.

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  50. #180
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Jerry,

    Granite is a source of uranium ore, in fact, much of the most expensive granites come from quarries surrounded by Uranium mines. There is a court battle in Namibia going on as we speak, a granite quarry and an Uranium mine fighting over the same plot of ground.

    Granite has been proven in many studies to have high concentrations of Uranium, Thorium, and Potassium, all sources of Radiation.

    Solid surface is made with plastic resins and ATH (aluminium trihydrate) which is completely inert radiologically speaking after processing. It has been tested and absolutely ZERO radon or radiation has been found.

    Formica countertops are made with paper and resins, no Uranium or radiation present.

    Now this is really, really, simple. Only granite and other natural stones have Uranium present, therefore only those type of materials need testing.

    Of course you could add concrete countertops, but the highest level found in concrete so far is around 35 uR/hr. They had a 3" diameter core sample from a granite countertop in a NY apartment that read 1,080 uR/hr, over one millirem of radiation per hour from a darned 3" diameter chunk of granite. Kitto reported that one of our samples hit 40,000 counts per minute.

    Bottom line is that if you are testing for radiation, there is no need to test products that aren't radioactive.

    People really pay you as a litigation consultant? Now that is insane from the quality of your logic in this debate. I think I'll become a construction litigation expert too if it is this easy!


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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post

    Of course you could add concrete countertops, but the highest level found in concrete so far is around 35 uR/hr.

    Bottom line is that if you are testing for radiation, there is no need to test products that aren't radioactive.
    .
    Wow AL,

    You got me convinced ( I'm headed to U - Rent for a Jack Hammer. Better Start taking this ( could be because of the mass size ) Dangerous SLAB of the House.

    Wonder if The Throw Rug will match the Dirt Floors.


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  52. #182
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Well, they also had a study on that, concrete Radon emanation. You are right, the larger area means just as much Radon as a hot granite top, add them together, plus some hot tile, and you got a high Radon level in areas of the country that aren't known for Radon.


  53. #183
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Potter View Post
    Al, To what extent are you an expert in this feild? Do you have any formal training in these matters which can be substantiated by diploma, certificate, or license?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Potter View Post
    Al, ...
    By the way, still waiting on the credentials that qualify you to even be speaking about the effects of radiation or radon. Did you go to college? What was your major?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Chew View Post
    Bump. For me, this "debate" is little more than white noise in cyberspace until those posts are answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Questioning my credintials is pretty silly when all I am doing is refering to studies done by qualified researchers or datat on sites beyond reproach like the EPA. I would say that these same detractors aren't qualified to drive their car if they apply the same standards.
    Al,

    1. You've been asked more than once to provide your credentials. I have not yet seen you provide them. We can't question what is not here.

    2. Silly ... not at all. This is serious business for us, not idle chit chat. We have a legal duty of care to our clients, and can incur substantial liability if we screw up or give our clients bad advice...not to mention having to fend off the folks who want a piece of us if "the deal" starts to get bumpy. Far from being silly, questioning your credentials is ESSENTIAL.

    3. "...all I am doing is refering to studies done by qualified researchers or datat on sites beyond reproach like the EPA." No sir. You are doing much more than that. Throughout this thread and the others on this subject on this board, you have been selectively quoting studies, out of context, drawing your own conclusions from them, and using them to further your agenda.

    Here is your agenda:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Bottom line, the inspection community knows about the issue, they should either test or warn to test if they want to CYA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    End of debate, gentlemen. Best warn consumers that a small percentage of granite countertops are dangerous so all granite countertops need to be tested.

    Now, who the hell are you to come in here and tell us what to do? What qualifications do you have to make those statements? Is this now the consensus opinion and recommendation of AARST, CRCPD, USEPA or even New York State DOH or DEC? If so, provide the documentation that supports it.


  54. #184
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Chew View Post
    Al,

    You've been asked more than once to provide your credentials.

    you have been selectively quoting studies, out of context, drawing your own conclusions from them, and using them to further your agenda.

    Here is your agenda .
    .
    Al has TESTING EQUIPMENT that is under utilized ( needs help paying for. )
    .
    Information on Countertop Selection
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  55. #185
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Brandon,

    Uh, how hard is it to follow that link where Dr. Kitto, a PhD that works for the Dept of Health at New York State says this is a problem? Dr. Steck, a St. Johns professor has studies on that link as well, and Dr. Steck was one of the authors of the Iowa Radon study, the largest Radon study done to date.

    Then read the Radon labs that presented papers on this at the same conference, the researchers from Czechlovokia (sp?) that gave the paper on their radiation standards for building materials.

    What I am trying to do is wake you guys to the liability that you are facing if you don't learn about this issue. If you want to question the credintials of those that are expert in this field, flail away. I am just the guy that pointed the issue out to you.

    " Is this now the consensus opinion and recommendation of AARST, CRCPD, USEPA or even New York State DOH or DEC? If so, provide the documentation that supports it."

    All you have to do is check with the CRCPD and AARST, who started the process to develop standards and protocols Wednsday afternoon. Does Dr. Kitto represent the NY stat DOH? Got me, but you can bet they have paid for his research and no doubt paid for his trip to Vegas to present his study.

    And I linked to the AARST website so you could read the papers and studies yourself.

    I am telling you guys, this is the end of the debate. The issues are real, and if nothing else, you guys ought to consider at least exclude the issues of Radon and radiation from your inspection contracts, but after pointing out that there is real evidence that there could be issues.

    Shoot the messanger if you wish, it doesn't change the facts.


  56. #186
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Billy,
    every day I try to track down a tester for people that email or call for help. We don't make a dime off referals and some of our testers that have signed up are govt employees in Radon offices that don't charge for testing.

    They say they don't turn down cookies or cakes though.

    On occasion, we tell the people that their kind of granite is known to be low level and may not require any testing.


    Now, please go read the studies and papers presented. You might learn something that will CYA in the coming months.

    Last edited by Al Gerhart; 09-20-2008 at 09:45 PM.

  57. #187
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Billy,

    You might learn something that will CYA in the coming months.
    .
    See Attached ( My A Has Been Covered. )
    .

    Attached Files Attached Files
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  58. #188
    Al Gerhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Excellent, now add radiation to that list and indeed you have CYA.


  59. #189
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Now this is really, really, simple. Only granite and other natural stones have Uranium present, therefore only those type of materials need testing.

    Bottom line is that if you are testing for radiation, there is no need to test products that aren't radioactive.
    Al,

    You really do not know how to do research which can withstand peer scrutiny, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Well, they also had a study on that, concrete Radon emanation. You are right, the larger area means just as much Radon as a hot granite top, add them together, plus some hot tile, and you got a high Radon level in areas of the country that aren't known for Radon.
    BINGO! We have a winner!

    Al, you need to test *ALL* available materials used for that used (in this case, countertops).

    That is the only way to establish a baseline reference for *ALL* materials.

    And, in fact, "radon" should not be the only thing being tested, *ALL* known or suspect things (radon, formaldehyde, you name it) should be tested for all the available materials.

    *ONLY THEN* than you make an educated decision on which material(s) are suitable for use and which material(s) are not suitable for use.

    There may be other substances (other than radon) which would preclude the use of some of the other materials.

    *THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW* ... is to test them all ... for everything ... in real life installations.

    Yeah, that includes in houses with concrete slabs, might mean that concrete has to go to, of course, though, would would that say about those 20-30-40-50 story concrete high rises where you are surrounded with concrete?

    Did that open your eyes even just a twinkle? It sure should have. Your 'the sky is falling, granite is emitting radon' may well pale in comparison to other real life installations.

    Gosh, would that mean that all high rise buildings would need to be leveled and replaced with steel? Boy, the steel industry would sure like that!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  60. #190
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Excellent, now add radiation to that list and indeed you have CYA.
    .
    Don't Have to already included ( Similar Environmental Hazards.)
    .

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
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  61. #191
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Al,

    You really do not know how to do research which can withstand peer scrutiny, do you?



    BINGO! We have a winner!

    Al, you need to test *ALL* available materials used for that used (in this case, countertops).

    That is the only way to establish a baseline reference for *ALL* materials.

    And, in fact, "radon" should not be the only thing being tested, *ALL* known or suspect things (radon, formaldehyde, you name it) should be tested for all the available materials.

    *ONLY THEN* than you make an educated decision on which material(s) are suitable for use and which material(s) are not suitable for use.

    There may be other substances (other than radon) which would preclude the use of some of the other materials.

    *THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW* ... is to test them all ... for everything ... in real life installations.

    Yeah, that includes in houses with concrete slabs, might mean that concrete has to go to, of course, though, would would that say about those 20-30-40-50 story concrete high rises where you are surrounded with concrete?

    Did that open your eyes even just a twinkle? It sure should have. Your 'the sky is falling, granite is emitting radon' may well pale in comparison to other real life installations.

    Gosh, would that mean that all high rise buildings would need to be leveled and replaced with steel? Boy, the steel industry would sure like that!
    Jerry,
    you are one of those guys that is never wrong, aren't you?

    There is no need to measure all materials if one is studying one material. This issue has allways been focused on granites that emit Radon and radiation, not any other health issues. Granite does have others, toxic heavy metal content is one that stands out. In fact, lawyersandsettlements.com has two cases that just scream Selenium posioning, but they are both blaming it on Radon from granite.

    Before you ask, no we aren't addressing it at this time. It would complicate the issues, and the reporters have enough to get right as it is. Besides, removing the high uranium content granites will get many of the suspect toxic heavy metal stones off the market as well. Later on we will address the issue.

    No, concrete doesn't have to go. The levels are low, no more than 35 uR/hr, simular to a low level granite, and there are few other products to replace it. ALARA is all about Reasonably Achievable, so simple to pick the lowest radiation level material that will do the job. Granite has some low level choices, or other materials like quartz or solid surface can do the job as well with no Radon or radiation exposures.

    And really, you aren't likely to open my eyes to anything. I see you as close minded and dismissive, not likely to embrace new ideas. Very set in your ways and resistant to anything you don't come up with.

    Now, from now on, I am going to add "construction Litigation expert" to my signature line. I think everyone ought to adopt the title as well. Send me an email and I'll print up a nice certificate you can hang in the office restroom.

    Al Gerhart
    "construction Litigation expert"


  62. #192
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    There is no need to measure all materials if one is studying one material. This issue has always been focused on granites that emit Radon and radiation, not any other health issues.

    Al,

    That's the problem, you are not thinking outside the box (not even the crayon box you have there), if you are going to go around yelling the sky is falling, we need to know *what the sky is*, and, *is it actually falling*, along with all other related health issues related to *OTHER MATERIAL* would would be used in place of the granite.

    One would not want to create a problem where the answer to the problem was worse than the original problem.

    You brought up a valid issue which needs to be discussed and tested - do countertops (of all kinds) affect the health of the occupants of the house.

    Did you catch the "(of all kinds)" there?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  63. #193
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Jerry,

    Both Quartz and Solid Surface are NSF 51 approved, and the Solid Surface uses FDA approved materials. It is the same resin and filler that dentists use, so it has been tested to death, plus the NSF 51 is not a test, it is a process that is ongoing.

    There are no health issues with the manufactured materials, quartz and solid surface.

    Granite on the other hand, is dug out of the ground and the greedy fools don't spend a dime on testing for radiation or heavy metals, or they do and don't let it stop them from selling the stuff to unwitting consumers.

    "You brought up a valid issue which needs to be discussed and tested - do countertops (of all kinds) affect the health of the occupants of the house."

    Thank you for recognizing that. That is all I am asking you guys to do is accept a heads up on the issues. If all do as Billy does, everyone has CYA but it wouldn't hurt to bring up the subject on a disclaimer specifically.

    I know I am going to have to reconsider selling granite after these two recent cases that might possibly be related to heavy metal poisoning.


  64. #194
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    I know I am going to have to reconsider selling granite after these two recent cases that might possibly be related to heavy metal poisoning.

    Isn't this the whole purpose of your crusade? You are a fabricator of Solid Surface and don't even fabricate granite counter tops. I am continually amazed at the amount of time and effort you put forth to tear down an industry that you only sell "some" products from and only because customers demand granite. It is no secret that Natural and Engineered Stones have all but destroyed the Solid Suface market. I imagine this to be quite a heavy hit to your Cabinet Shop's bottom line.

    Through this entire thread, you have discounted and subsequently attacked the opinions of experts who have presented factual data contrary to yours. These guy's have been in the feild for a hell of alot longer than you have been attacking granite, when are you going to get a clue?

    In the Natural Stone Industry, you my freind are known as what is referred to as a "Hack"! Someone who professes to know the business but yet has no clue.

    The Natural Stone industry is in the process of setting standards for certifying granite as safe on numerous fronts. This will take some time as there is "Real Research" to be performed. This of course would rule you out Mr. Gerhart.

    BTW, I wouldn't make any trips to Brazil soon, you never can tell what that Portegese mafia has planned!


  65. #195
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    Default Re: Stone Countertops & Radon

    Jerry said: "You brought up a valid issue which needs to be discussed and tested - do countertops (of all kinds) affect the health of the occupants of the house."

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gerhart View Post
    Thank you for recognizing that. That is all I am asking you guys to do is accept a heads up on the issues. If all do as Billy does, everyone has CYA but it wouldn't hurt to bring up the subject on a disclaimer specifically.
    Al,

    *I* have stated that before, last year when you first posted your stuff here (wait, it just SEEMS it was a year ago).

    *IF* that "was all you wanted", which you said before too, then you would leave it at that.

    But you don't.

    If only you would.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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