Doorway to Hell - InspectionNews

Jon Randolph · #1 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 12:38 PM

Believe it or not, this was in the childs play area. My comment in the report was as follows:

• Safety Issue: The door that goes to the 2nd floor exterior has about a 12’ drop to the ground. This door should be removed and replaced with a window or a deck should be constructed outside this door. In the mean time, replace the deadbolt and door knob with keyed locks and place the keys out of the reach of children. This door is also a possible leak point for rain.

Joseph P. Hagarty · #2 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 12:41 PM

Barrier should be installed at the exterior.

David Banks · #3 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 12:42 PM

Amazing. All exterior doors require landing. Are they in the process of adding a deck or ran out of money?

Bruce Breedlove · #4 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 01:27 PM

Is that relatively new construction? Are permits required in your area? If so (to both questions), I would have expected the AHJ to require a barrier be installed on the outside of the door until the deck was built.

It looks to me like the door was cut in after-the-fact based on the rough cut edge on the drywall and base molding. It also appears the door jamb is not wide enough for the wall width so spacers will have to be installed when the door casing is installed. And the base molding will have to be cut back to allow installation of the door casing.

That was a good catch for you. That's the kind of stuff we are paid to find.

BARRY ADAIR · #5 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Randolph

Believe it or not, this was in the childs play area. My comment in the report was as follows:

• Safety Issue: The door that goes to the 2nd floor exterior has about a 12’ drop to the ground. This door should be removed and replaced with a window or a deck should be constructed outside this door. In the mean time, replace the deadbolt and door knob with keyed locks and place the keys out of the reach of children. This door is also a possible leak point for rain.

Jon,

I agree with the find and your concerns but prescribing a repair that may entrap occupants is a NO-NO in my book.

Jon Randolph · #6 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 06:12 AM

The home was built in 1920, so this was an add on. Current owner has "made several upgrades" according to the listing sheet. Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation. I don't know if the original intention was to add a balcony/deck or not.

Barry - That door should not have been there in the first place and there are other windows for emergency egress if needed. In my opinion, a double keyed deadbolt would be about the only thing to ensure the safety of children. If I could open it with the standard deadbolt and locking doorknob, a child can too.

Robert Schenck · #7 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 08:25 AM

Jon, …. Good catch and I agree with your recommendation, but I have to agree with Barry. Keyed dead bolts could possibly entrap someone in the room (even though there are other windows in the room). It’s easy to say this now, because I’m just now reading this, and I wasn’t there at the time. But, I think I would have recommended the installation of a “keyless dead-bolt” out of the reach of children, ….. say in the upper third part of the door.

Even with the keyless dead-bolt in place, Murphy’s Law could still take its course. If someone (let’s say a guest not knowing there is NO deck in the back) were to open that door, take a few steps, and bam – to the ground below they go. In addition, I would have recommended placing some sort of semi-permanent barrier in front of the door to prevent it from opening and people from walking through it.

Michael Greenwalt · #8 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 08:26 AM

Maybe, but requiring special needs to operate the lock such as a key, at an exterior door, is akin to 2 wrongs making a right. I would address the problem directly and stay away from recommending anything directly in conflict with any local code or ordinance. Now of course, you may not have any requirements by state, local, or any other jurisdiction but........

From the IRC
R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing
on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing
at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38
mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall
be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical
in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall
not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the
top of the threshold, provided the door, other than
an exterior storm or screen door does not swing
over the landing.
R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch. All egress doors shall be
readily openable from the side from which egress is to be
made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

Philip Desmarais · #9 (**permalink**) 08-10-2007, 09:15 PM

Jon Randolph: "This door is also a possible leak point for rain."
In a later post: "Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation."

Couldn't help but notice the contradiction.

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? They certainly have their place when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt. Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.

Anthony Alderman · #10 (**permalink**) 08-11-2007, 05:33 AM

Enclose it completely,cover with siding outside drywall inside, problem solved.
Tony

BARRY ADAIR · #11 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

Jon Randolph:
On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? They certainly have their place when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt. Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.

Life loss trumps property loss any day.

I don't buy the realtor's or anyone else's argument about breaking glass for deceitful entry.

Someone's watched way to many late night movies and a theif or other nogoodniks will get in if they really want in.

What about all the non-egress window locations? Are we supposed to call them out for having unkeyed locks?

Tim Bruns · #12 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 08:43 AM

Before this door was installed, the outside "deck or stairway" should have been installed. This is the cart before the horse. I would list this as a Safety issue and a non-satisfactory condition. As an old remodeler and a NEW HI, I am very interested in reading your recommendations. I would probably write it up by saying " have this fixed before moving in".

[quote=

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue? ... Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.[/quote]

I don't like these locks at all. I will not work in a home with the doors locked from the inside. Either they unlock them while I work, or find someone else.

Victor DaGraca · #13 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 10:27 AM

From the 2006 IRC:

AM103.3 Type of lock and latches for exits.

Regardless of
the occupant load served, exit doors shall be openable from the
inside without the use of a key or any special knowledge or
effort. When the occupant load is 10 or less, a night latch, dead
bolt or security chain may be used, provided such devices are
openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool and
mounted at a height not to exceed 48 inches (1219 mm) above
the finished floor.

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

On a side note. Does everyone write up a keyed deadbolt on exterior doors as a safety issue?

Yes.

Quote:

They certainly have their place ...

No they don't.

Quote:

... when the door has glass that can be broken by an intruder to gain entry by reaching inside to unlock a non-keyed deadbolt.

That's not a "reason" to potentially kill someone because a double deadbolt was installed and the key missing or broke off.

If someone is going to get in, that double deadbolt is not going to stop them. If they break the glass, they'll rip out the door, or, as was done to our house down in South Florida, break the window (an awning type, then rip the awning frame out to make more entry space). Once inside the house, that double deadbolt does nothing to stop them from opening the door and taking things out.

[quote Interesting problem. Intruder safety vs fire safety.[/quote]

No problem - no double deadbolt - save a life.

Bob Harper · #15 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 07:09 PM

The only ways I see to remedy this are:
a) construct an approved barricade on the exterior, similar to a deck railing or
b) seal it up so it is non-operable.

However, I still have a problem with a door to nowhere. It can mislead someone during a fire into thinking it is an exit. I can just see a house guest dead from smoke inhalation lying at this door instead of getting downstairs.

Doors should go to somewhere, esp. in the exterior shell of the home.

Jerry Peck · #16 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

The only ways I see to remedy this are:
a) construct an approved barricade on the exterior, similar to a deck railing or
b) seal it up so it is non-operable.

Bob,

Here is a 3rd option, and it eliminates your other concern as well:
c) construct an approved barricade on the INterior, such a a railing blocking access to the door, making the door *not an option* during any emergency.

Jon Randolph · #17 (**permalink**) 08-12-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Desmarais

Jon Randolph: "This door is also a possible leak point for rain."
In a later post: "Yes, it does appear to have been cut in after the room was finished, but it is properly flashed at the exterior and the siding was installed after the door installation."

Couldn't help but notice the contradiction.

The door was flashed under the siding, but there was not another door (ie. storm door). This door is on the west side of the home and in my area rain usually comes from the west. Without maintenance, which is hard or impossible for the normal person from the outside, I would think that leaking at the threshold would be imminent over time.

As far as the keyed dead bolts, I write it up as a safety issue any "normal" door going from the home to the exterior or the attached garage.

I do agree that more should be done to this area such as the suggested landing or replacement with a window but I still feel that it would immediately remove the hazard of anyone being able to open that door and take the first fatal step if that door had keyed deadbolts with the keys removed.

Travis Grubbs · #18 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 09:56 AM

What amazes me is that "this door to Hell" was left for the home inspector to write up in his report. This should be an obvious safety defect that any one should understand, especially the realtor and the seller. That said, I am thankful that such folks exist because they keep us in business.

Travis

Michael Greenwalt · #19 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 12:11 PM

With all the viable and safe options available to to recommend to your clients why on earth would you EVER recommend doing something so wrong as installing a keyed entry to your clients? I don't mean to see so crass but I don't understand that logic. I would always recommend making reasonable, safe options or repairs to your clients as opposed to that type of recommendations. Remember, as time passes and the door area is addressed and the lock "YOU" recommended be installed remains who will get the call when or if something does happen and that lock is still in place. "But, my inspector TOLD me to install a deadbolt keyed from the inside" Hmmmm.......wouldn't want that to be me.
IMHO