Good morning, All:

I just need to chime in.

I don’t sell counter tops. I don’t install or remove counter tops. I have no dog in this fight.

I am just an Industrial Hygienist (for 20 years). I was a Radiation Safety Officer for 16 years and I taught the syllabus on radiation toxicology at Red Rocks Community College in Golden, Colorado for four years. I also lectured in Radiation Toxicology at Denver University as part of the Masters Program in Environmental Policy, and I have performed certified radiation safety training for such obscure organizations as the D.O.E. Rocky Flats Nuclear Facility outside of Denver. I have also performed radiation safety audits for other obscure locations such as the Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico, and the VA Hospital in Denver. I have been the on-site Radiation Safety Officer in the decommissioning of radiation laboratories and on NPL Denver radium sites. And I have been the radiation adviser on radiation exposure issues for the U.S.G.S.

So, unlike Mr. Gerhart, I’m not very well versed in counter tops – in fact, I don’t know nuthin’ about counter-tops.

But unlike Mr. Gerhart, I know a little something about radiation, radiation toxicology, and epidemiology and when I read Mr. Gerharts posts, I want to weep – since it is difficult to convey how so completely confused, misinformed, and generally uninformed about radiation Mr. Gerhart truly is. Reading his posts, is painful. It is hard to believe that someone could be so wrong about so much and yet have so much to say! So, I haven’t read through all of Mr. Gerhart’s posts or waded through all the gibberish.

So, I selected just one, post randomly, and thought I would comment on it. In that post Mr. Gerhart in his hallmark technical incompetence in the area of radiation issues makes the following statement.

Radiation is a proxy used to prove that Radon will be present, if you know what you are doing.

Actually – this is a good place to start since radiation is a proxy to prove that radon will be present only if you are a complete nut and you have absolutely no idea what you are doing or talking about. In fact, that would have to be the only way that you could possibly believe that “Radiation is a proxy used to prove that Radon will be present.” Maybe its true in the fantasy Counter-Top World created in Mr. Gerhart’s mind, but not in the real world occupied by you and me.

Ionizing radiation is all around us, all the time and inside us. Natural radiation is in our food, our water, and in the skies above us. Risks associated with radiation is not just a numbers game wherein high number mean high risk. If that was the case, and Mr. Gerhart was right, then for heaven’s sake, milk would be banned overnight as highly toxic since the natural alpha radiation associated with it is 1,200 pCi/L! Beer would be classified as dangerous since it typically has an activity of about 800 pCi/L, and bananas (good gawd, bananas, the most obviously toxic thing on earth) give off so much radiation that alarms were once triggered at the Rocky Flats plant by a single banana coming out of the facility in a worker's lunch box!

Bananas are actually an interesting analogy since if we look at the radiation of bananas, we see that much of the activity is associated with the naturally occurring radioactive potassium found in the banana, and it is the same material found in granite.

(Oh, by the way, I also worked for eight years at Hazen Research, where I had a real scientific laboratory, and I worked almost exclusively in geochemistry and geological mineral beneficiation. Coincidentally, I also had a (gleaming) laboratory when I was a chemist at the Colorado School of Mines Research Institute. So, you might say I dabbled in geology and mineralogy and I may know a little something about geology as well.)

Now, if we look at granite, we see feldspar, and therefore, we see potassium. And, we also see the same radioactive potassium that is in bananas. So let’s look at that potassium. Most Americans (even those who do not like bananas and never eat granite) will consume about 3 to 4 grams of potassium each day. This radioactive material calculates to about 2,100 pCi of K40 which means a little over 80 radioactive decays each second. The average person reading this post has about 150 grams of potassium in their body right now. As you sit and read this, if you are a normal human, you are irradiating 4,400 Bq (120,000 pCi) of K40, (that equates to about 4,400 radioactive disintegrations per second. And that’s just from the potassium! And that occurs in our bodies each second we live! At least 98 % of these disintegrations take place within body cells, and are potentially capable of altering the cell's DNA. So why aren’t we all dead from cancer by the age of two years old? (I have little interested in knowing Mr. Gerhart's explaination).

Cosmic radiation pours down upon the Earth. Every SECOND, some 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 high energy protons (each greater than one billion eVs) are incident upon the earth. A single high-energy proton may give rise to hundreds of millions of secondary particles including electrons, muons, photons and even neutrons. In Denver, we receive approximately 190 mrad each year from JUST cosmic radiation! The party-goers at the DNC this week will be receiving approximately 20 µR or cosmic radiation EACH HOUR – and that is just from the cosmic radiation.

Our own bodies irradiate us with ionizing radiation, at a rate of one fifth of that the average US citizen receives from radon (when we express the exposure as “dose” in mrems per year). So granite has radiation (yawn); big deal, so do I.

K concentrations in granite are similar to other geological materials such as shale and igneous rock. Virtually all granite is radioactive. That’s it. Always has been, and always will be.

What is driving this current fear-train is ignorance used to fuel the “sky-is-falling” mentality of people like Mr. Gerhart who otherwise do not have even a foundational grasp of the technical issues at hand. But since virtually none of his readers are well versed in radiation issues, they can’t determine if what he is saying is technically accurate or not. This is precisely the same set of circumstances that allows the charlatans in the “toxic mould” business to rip off so many people. 1) First you scare the willies out of them with scientific sounding Latin names and scientific units of expression and bogus pseudoscience, and then 2) you $tep in with your $ales $piel and a$$ure the poor $ucker that you are a $$pecialist who$e $ole concern i$ their health and welfare.

We could sit and debate and discuss and argue for weeks about how much radiation a banana gives off – we could present lengthy scientific papers on the best way to measure the emission rates from bananas – we could petition the government for new radioactive banana mitigation standards – we could present scientific papers arguing about the spatial and temporal variations of how much radiation a Mexican banana gives off versus a Colombian banana – but until somebody demonstrates that the radiation received from eating a banana actually increases the risk of an adverse health effect by one iota – the ENTIRE argument is a presentation on the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin.

And so it is with radon and granite counter tops. In spite of all the lengthy mumbo-jumbo on the best way to monitor and who has the hottest granite and how much does it increase the radon concentration in a building… it is all missing the big picture which is this:

1) There is not one study, yet performed on the planet earth, by ANY organization (including the US EPA) that has measured radon concentrations in homes and has demonstrated that those exposures increase the risk of cancer by even the slightest degree.

2) The U.S. EPA in its various documents has published its acknowledgement that studies performed thus far show that as the concentration of radon in an home (from non-detect to moderate levels) goes up, the risk of cancer goes DOWN. Let me repeat that for the benefit of any members of the US Ninth Circuit who may be reading this: The most reliable and confident studies performed thus far, as reported in EPA scientific literature conclude that as radon in an home goes up, the risk of cancer goes down.

There may be kooks who peddle the dangers of microwave ovens, toxic moulds, and overhead power lines, and they are likely the same individuals, like Mr. Gerhart, who embrace the current fear du jour of radon in counter-tops. They may present all kinds of scientifically valid emission studies and comparison studies, and comparative levels, but none of them can relate those emission studies to adverse health consequences without drawing on the misconceptions that the EPA or BEIR has demonstrated that a provable health consequence exists at all.

Folks interested in how some of those studies get perversely twisted, may find my discussions on radon studies interesting.

You may find the critical reviews of some of the studies here:
Radon: Truth vs. myth

There is no point in attempting to discuss radon issues with the Mr. Gerharts of the world. They don’t understand the basic tenets of radiation, toxicology or epidemiology, and they do not care a farthing for objective facts. They see themselves as self appointed enlightened heroes but they cannot backup anything they say – but they can regurgitate large sections of text and tautology without having to understand what they just said.

I have no intention in responding to Mr. Gerhart, he has already demonstrated that he doesn’t listen, or think, about what is being said – primarily because he lacks the technical foundation to understand what is being said.

But then, see, I’m just a lowly Radiation Safety Officer and Industrial Hygienist for the last two decades with an additional 10 years experience as a chemist, so I don’t know nuthin about selling or installing counter tops – That is Mr. Gerhart’s area of expertise.

Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Industrial Hygiene

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Bernie,
You have read a representitive from the stone industry say that the radiation issue is real on some stones. The majority of the radiation comes from U 235 and U 238, Radon comes from both decay chains, that is scientific fact.

The granite countertop continually replaces the radon, for millions of years.

And Randy, you are misquoting and that is easily proved. No one said the hit men were waiting at the air port, I said they were placing odds on whether or not he would make it to his hotel. Typical make it up Randy, if you can't make something up, you use a personal attack.

And they do call themselves a "brother hood". No women allowed I guess, like the Mulsim brotherhood or the aryan brotherhood. They brag about strong arming machinery companies, trade associations, non profits, and material companies. I think that "brotherhood" fits the bill till they clean up their act.

Cao, I'll read your reply later today, got to go measure a lady's countertop.

edit.

Mr Connell

A quote from you

"We could sit and debate and discuss and argue for weeks about how much radiation a banana gives off – we could present lengthy scientific papers on the best way to measure the emission rates from bananas – we could petition the government for new radioactive banana mitigation standards – we could present scientific papers arguing about the spatial and temporal variations of how much radiation a Mexican banana gives off versus a Colombian banana – but until somebody demonstrates that the radiation received from eating a banana actually increases the risk of an adverse health effect by one iota – the ENTIRE argument is a presentation on the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin."

You had to go picking on bananas. I loved bananas. You see I said loved. I will never eat a banana again

__________________
Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

I am sure there are a lot of people who would disagree with me and agree with you: you say that doing it fast is better than doing it right; whereas I say doing it right is more important than doing it fast.

I mean, look at all of the "Mold is Gold" people who jumped on that bandwagon, doing fast and not right. With the same intentions many would have doing this fast and not right - make the money while the making is good.

Unless there is something to show that *WE WILL DIE NEXT WEEK*, there is no reason to promote doing it "fast" versus doing it "right". Doing it "fast" only means that you may well end up with useless information, which is subsequently proven to be false information.

It is far better to "DO IT RIGHT", the world's population is not going to die next week because it was not done "fast". Think about it, do we know that smoking tobacco kills people? Yep. Does that stop people from smoking? Nope. Does that stop people from taking up smoking? Nope. Does that stop people from making tobacco products? Nope.

Yet that is a far more pervasive problem than radon in granite, and far more in urgent need of doing *the right thing* "fast", and it just is not happening.

There is absolutely *no need* to do it "fast" versus a need to do it "right".

Go cry 'Mold is Gold', yeah, that was the last big popular flare-up, and it is still around, albeit slowly dwindling down.

Because yelling "FIRE!" you need to make sure *that there is a fire*. Unless, somehow, you benefit from yelling "FIRE!" - like your yelling "FIRE!" and then saying 'But our granite is 'fireproof', so you can buy OUR granite, just not granite from those other guys, they have not tested theirs to see if it is 'fireproof'.

Hmmmm ... kind of like the solid surface countertop industry pouring gasoline on your *fire*, makes for good business for them, puts you in the position of having to say 'but our is *fireproof* I tell you - you do not need to worry about OURS'.

First, *prove there is a fire*. Until then, don't go around yelling "FIRE!".

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Al,
I paid a visit to your website and was neither impressed nor amused. I for one do not like being compared to the "Aryan Brotherhood", we do have women members and you obviously do not know the difference between stoneadvice.com and the SFA. By the way, your article could get you sued, you might want to run those by an attorney first prior to posting.

I am looking for credible sources on the topics of ionizing radiation exposure. Looking through past posts here, you are nothing more than an alarmist with no credentials to support what you are espousing. All I see is someone who really has an axe to grind with the SFA. I’m sorry for you that Silestone decided to come along with us (to work toward an industry solution) and terminate their relationship with Buildclean since I also discovered you were trying to bend their ears as well.

If you understood the geology of stone or some mineralogy, you would not be recommending chemical analysis as a credible procedure. While there are some things you have mentioned that peak my interest, most of what you have written is off base.

Mr. Connell,
Even though you may be "a lowly Radiation Safety Officer and Industrial Hygienist", I find your comments very insightful. Because there are so many radioactive minerals present in nature I know that this presence will not always mean radon and further agree with the overall conscience that radon is not the issue and that radiation exposure is the main problem. Since the deposit of radioactive minerals is not constant throughout a granite formation (or slab for that matter), what testing method is best? We’re looking at testing using dosimetry devices which may better represent true exposure.

Randy,
I have not been able to confirm the Brazilian Mafia hit men story. Each person I ask gives me very strange responses, I don’t quite understand what to make of it!

Ted,
Sorry about your love for banana’s. Cao’s comment does have me looking at the banana trees in my back yard wondering if I should eat any of the crop this coming spring.

Jerry,
"Do it right" is correct. We are not going to all die this week or next. But there are those killer banana trees in the back yard...

Thank you for your input Mr. Connell
you explain things in away that is easy for a lowly Stone Cutter like me to understand
Thank you
Curtis Marburger
Cornerstone Granite Inc

My nieces husband recently bought part interest in 15 granite mines in South America. They currently do not ship to the US. I saw him today at a wedding shower for another niece and he said his fear is that people will simply put in another solid surface counter top and the entire market will be flooded with unwanted granite. He said he has three kids and he would not put it in his house if there was ANY chance it could be a health hazard. The facts may not be as important as the hype.

James,

That's what I'm saying: Al is yelling "FIRE!" and people are running to the exits without know where the fire is, or even if there is a fire. Many deaths are caused by people trampling over people when that many are in panic and fleeing.

If there is no fire, I wonder if the person yelling fire can be sued for damages?

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Kent,
were I a SFA member I would also be wondering if discussing price fixing, extorting businesses like machinery companies and materials companies, and attempting to pressure non profit organizations is also a basis for a lawsuit.

But let's look at what the Silestone/SFA alliance did.

First off, Silestone used the SFA, giving little while gaining much. By turning on their old partners, they lifted some of the pressure from the stone industry. Even better from Silestone and Build Clean's point of view, now the SFA is forced to admit there is a problem with the radiation content of some granites being sold. Even better, now the SFA is doing what Silestone set out to do, bring this issue into the light. The SFA will lose members over this switch from "testing is B.S." to "testing must be done". Plenty of stoners that fought tooth and nail to suppress this debate are now discredited. But they join Randy Evans, or revans1 as he goes on Gardenweb.com, so they have company.

Now, what exactly, if anything, did the SFA receive? Well, besides a heaping platter of "Crowe" (Pun intended, tell Miles I said hello), the lose of members over the fight, they also lost the support of the MIA (Marble Institute of America). In return, Silestone was supposed to silence Build Clean, something that they knew was beyond their ability, as they had one seat on the board. I'll give Hernando this, he did try, but the rest of the board was drafting the papers for his removal, which prompted Hernando to resign.

Sure, you stripped an ally from Build Clean's testing effort, but Silestone had given the maximum amount of money all ready, which had to be offset by raising twice that amount from other sources.

So basically, Silestone asked that Build Clean give in to your demands to stop the testing, then somehow convinced the SFA to start their own effort? Master full, Machiavelli would have been impressed. Those on our side of the debate are liking the turn of events as it furthers our goals, to insure the testing of all stones prior to marketing.


"If you understood the geology of stone or some mineralogy, you would not be recommending chemical analysis as a credible procedure."


Well, our Radiological Chemist and our Uranium Geologist would be amused to hear your views on lab testing. Nothing could have shown your ignorance more than that statement. Using the lab report, like the one from ARS on the Houston granite countertop, experts can determine both the amount of radiation and the amount of Radon. In fact, it was this very Silestone funded lab report that turned the EPA around last month. See, they thought that your average granite countertop had 1 pCi/G of Radium, not the 1,130 pCi/g found in that slab of Juparana Bordeaux.
It sounds like you have been listing to Dr. Hans Henson who prefers to sell his geologist services, dearly, to the stone industry.

Yes the random distribution of radioactive elements will mean that every slab be tested, no way out of it. There is a method of scanning a slab with an array of 12 probes, then dumping the data into a spread sheet in seconds, giving a color coded "map" of the radioactive hot spots, as well as a computed average of the radiation present. Done prior to polishing, problem solved.

Dosimeters would be an excellent way to prove or disprove the radiation exposure. One of the experts we spoke with called it "Tag and release", you put the dosimeter on the homeowner or fabricator, then after a period have the badge read at a lab. The absolutely best way to give the exposure. I highly recommend doing it.

"I have not been able to confirm the Brazilian Mafia hit men story. Each person I ask gives me very strange responses, I don’t quite understand what to make of it!"

As to the Silestone executive hit, another source said it was the slab processors, but then again, he was a quarry owner. Who knows....but you are finding out few want to talk of it. Draw your own conclusions.

Now, bananas are not large radioactive sources. Those that drag that straw man into the debate are admitting they have no other info but what few urban myths or lies they can fabricate. We tested rack of bananas at Walmart, nothing. We brought some home and repeated the testing while video taping the test, nothing. The video is posted at Youtube.com. Do a simple google search on the topic and you will realize there is something wrong when someone brings it into a debate.

YouTube - TCSRock78's Channel Look for the "Disproving more MIA lies" or the "No radioactive bananas or potatoes"
See why I am the target of personal attacks? It is all they have!

Now, Cao,
"Actually – this is a good place to start since radiation is a proxy to prove that radon will be present only if you are a complete nut and you have absolutely no idea what you are doing or talking about."
Dr. Llope, a Nuclear Physicist at Rice University said that there was a tight correlation between Radon and radiation. Can't cut and paste his reply since it is a pdf.

http://www.des.state.nh.us/ARD/EHP/R...ural_stone.pdf

Look on page 3, right above the chart. That PDF is posted on the state of New Hampshire's DEQ site. I suppose Cao would have us believe they are lying as well?

"If that was the case, and Mr. Gerhart was right, then for heaven’s sake, milk would be banned overnight as highly toxic since the natural alpha radiation associated with it is 1,200 pCi/L!"

True! But what Cao's agenda doesn't allow him to tell you is that your body retains only so much Potassium 40, and although you must have the element for health, it exposes you to 14 to 18 mrem per year, part of your normal 360 mrem exposure. However, one must point out that we aren't at all concerned about potassium 40 at all, there was only 54 pCi/g in the Houston Bordeaux lab report, but there was 1,130 pCi/G of Radium and hundreds more of pCi/g of Radon decay products, all proving that the Radon was present in the sample.

Now your conclusions.

1. There is no study showing that granite causes cancer, but there are exhaustive studys showing the Radon from granite causes cancer, few deny that but Cao and his fringe group. Radiation has been proven to cause cancer, granite has radiation.

2. Prove that statement that the EPA says cancer goes down when Radon levels go up. The EPA has pages of public statements and info that say the opposite of what you claim.

Sorry, Cao. Your agenda is obvious and like you say, anyone that posts long enough without providing any proof, oh.... you did link to your own site as proof!!! How about something published? Like a study? Maybe the Spokane or the Iowa study?

What Mr. Connell Said

Al

I really do not want to waste allot of time on this site arguing about the SFA. The SFA (or MIA) has never denied Granite as non radioactive nor that it doesn't emit radon. This however does not fit with your conspiracy theory. Do you have the results of that study that shows the link between granite and cancer? No you do not. Here again, twisting the facts to meet an agenda. We call that "Alarmist Mentality".

No machine comany has been strong armed by our organization, otherwise they would'nt be sponsors! There has never been any price fixing as everyone knows, this would be in direct violation of US Anti-Trust laws!

I'll have to give Hernando at C&C NA a call on Monday to congratulate him on his narrow escape. Thank god for good intel, wouldn't you agree? Btw, he never had a trip planned to Brasil and none of Cosentino suppliers had ever cut then off!

Why wouldn't Silestone ally with us? Their material is 93% quartz (thats a natural material, Al), many of our members sell and fabricate their materials (me included), they are a major importer of granite and they too wish to improve the industry. We're hoping they also come on board with the MIA, would'nt that be great! Damn, that blows another conspiracy theory for you, sorry.

As to losing members? Membership is up! But then again, you don't know the difference between a registered user of stoneadvice.com and a card carrying member of the SFA. Brothers and sisters alike, bro.

Your last post answers a question previously asked. Your problem is not with granite or any burning desire to save the world from it's dangers. You are pissed with the SFA and you figure this is a way to get back at them. That is real petty Al. I urge you to take a look through this thread and see if you have anymore support for your radon rant here than you did over stoneadvice.com before you were banned for name calling and abusive behavior! I see the same results here and at some point tese guy's will get tired of your crap too.

I guess now that buildclean is on the rocks for the same alarmist activity (since they were the ones responsible for the leak to the NYT) you have lost another partner in you campaign against the SFA. Maybe Cambria will come on board with us too! Wouldn't that be great, AL?!

By the way, did you know there are all kinds of sites on the internet that will sell you hot minerals and granite samples? Of course you did, look at who I am asking!

The Decay Chain of Radon:

Radon originates from Uranium-238 which naturally occurs in most types of granite and soil in varying degrees. The following table for uranium-238 shows the various changes. As it undergoes radioactive decay, a chain of products is formed as a result of one by-product itself decaying to another element, which in turn decays further until finally reaching an element that is stable. In this case that stable element is Lead. The element we're interested in is Radon-222 (there is another form, Radon-218, but the half-life of this isotope is only a few hundredths of a second, so it is less of a problem). This is produced roughly halfway down this decay chain from Radium-226. Radon is a particular problem because it is a gas, and as such can leave the surrounding rock and enter buildings along with atmospheric air.
Radon-222

Half-life : 3.825 days - Emissions: Alpha 5.48MeV - Beta None - Gamma None