I need some help here folks. For the 4ooth time today I have encountered another AHJ that tells me a "Jaccuzi" bathtub pump equipment does not have to be bonded if the house is plumbed with PEX. Am I wrong in telling him he's ever so mistaken?

Every manufacturer's installation instructions, Jaccuzi, Royal, Kohler, et al. says the same thing - bond it. NEC 680.74 seems to me to say bond it.

I have seen contractors run the 8awg bonding jumper to a ground rod at the exterior in the presence of PEX.

Who's right? How should this be done?

Thanks,

Aaron

On the flip side of that I was talking to a project superintendent in the last week or so and he was concerned due to the number of times the city wanted to see the hydro-tub bonding.

He counted 4 separate inspections that he had experienced where the H-T bonding was part of the inspection. He was wondering just how many times they had to see the "same bonding"??

Now ... PEX was not involved in this property, but I've also seen the #8 run to the ground rod as well.

Stating as 'not required ... due to PEX' is bull stuffing from my understanding and view.

__________________
Cheers - Nolan E. Kienitz, PMP
Dallas Home Inspector
www.NolansInspections.com

Nolan:

I think so too. Additionally, NEC 110.3(B) is pretty specific in saying that "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling".

Any other opinions out there? I know this subject must've been broached before, but I could not find a reference to it in the archives. So, forgive me if I am repeating something recently discussed.

Surely JP and JM cannot remain silent on this for long. . .

Aaron

2003 IRC
2420.4 Manufacturer's instructions. The product shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.

Section E3808 Grounding
E3808.1 Metal enclosures. Metal enclosures of conductors, devices and equipment shall be grounded.

E3802.2Equipment...
2. Where located in a wet or damp location and not isolated...

E3808.3 Specific equipment fastened in place or connected by permanent wiring methods.
Exposed non-current-carrying metal parts of the following equipment and enclosures shall be grounded:
1. Luminaires...
2. Motor-operated water pumps...

I have seen flexible cord connected pumps that are not metal, that do not have a separate grounding lug, but are grounded through the corded connection, but if I see a grounding lug on a pump casing, it needs a #8 conductor back to the equipment ground. I take it that if the manufacturer provides a grounding lug, it is supposed to be used.

But then, I get to see very few pumps since they almost never provide an access panel that you can open without damage to the finishes. I understand this is changed to provide ready access in the newest codes. I am looking forward to the changes.

__________________
Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

Jim:

I make them remove the skirts so I can inspect them.

Aaron

This is the requirements for hydromassage tub bonding:

All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contract with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

CPVC is not a "metal piping system" and there are likely 'no' "grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water" ... which means ... no bonding under those conditions.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Jerry:

This was PEX and not CVPC. Do you mean even if the installation instructions ex;licitly say to run the #8 jumper back to the panel?

Aaron

I had a nice, long, response, but, just as I clicked 'submit' (while I was also running my anti-virus live update with my mouse set to automatically go to the default button) my live update finished and came up with the screen asking if I wanted to restart my computer now or wait, and, of course, 'restart now' was the default, so when I clicked 'submit' I actually clicked 'restart my computer' ... AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH

Anyway, the short of my long response is ...

All manufacturer's installation instructions I've seen state something to the effect of 'install per these installation instructions or in accordance with locally adopted codes'.

Thus, if you have no locally adopted code, you install them according to the installation instructions.

BUT, if you have locally adopted codes, you install them according to the code. *IF* the code is silent on an issue included in the installation instructions, the installation instructions apply.

If code addresses bonding, and it does, you bond it in accordance with the code. If the code does not address support for the tub, and they do not, you support it in accordance with the installation instructions.

It also depends on if the installation instructions say "and", "or", or "and/or" the installation instructions and/or the code.

That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Jerry:

Thanks, that makes sense.

Aaron

Aaron,

My last sentence was key "That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.", but you did not answer it.

That answer addresses the code requirements for bonding, which may be the same as the installation instructions ... ?

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Jerry:

Sorry, I meant to say hydro-massage tub. In a master bathroom. No spa.

Thanks,

Aaron

We all need to understand and know the difference between bonding and grounding, Yes they are not the same.

PEX is plastic. CPVC is plastic. PVC is plastic. They do not conduct electricity so bonding would not do much of anything.

__________________
Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

Scott:

I do understand the difference between bonding and grounding (mostly); the differences between PVC, CPV and PEX as well (certainly not a the molecular level or anything). My concern here was that the manufacturer's instructions explicitly state that the bonding jumper is to be run from the bonding lug all the way back to the main panel. There are so many code references supporting strict adherence to those instructions, I assumed that they must be followed.

Peck says I'm wrong, and he may be right. What's your take on this?

Aaron

If you found the instructions that state that a bonding wire must be run back to the panel then that is all that is needed. Manufacturers requirements trump codes. Many of the newer motors do not have the bonding screw.

__________________
Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

I think we have pretty well covered the code issue on this, but I have a
personal take on this, just from common sense, IMHO.

If you have bonded metal water supply pipes, I would see LESS of a
danger than if you had the same pump setup with plastic lines.

I can't see reducing the call for bonding a pump connected to plastic.

At least with bonded metal pipes, you have an alternate path if the pump
ground fails, not so with plastic.

If you have a plastic pump housing with nothing to bond, then you can't
bond it anyway. Those systems typically have a double insulated motor
with a grounding wire from what I see.

Question #1- Can you conceal a cord and plug connection behind an access panel (not READILY accessible)? (of course we would never know if we can't pull the panel, so it is mostly academic)

Question #2- Has anyone else heard of the change in the newer codes requiring READY access to hydro therapy tubs?

__________________
Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

Not always.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Huh?

Plastic pipes do not carry current, they are non-conductive. There is nothing to bond to, and no need to bond to nothing (nothing to bond to).

Huh? See above.

"Bonding" *IS NOT* to provide "an alternate path" for ground current. "Bonding" is simply to tie all associated metallic parts which are in contact with the water together. Being as (with plastic pipes) there *is only one* metallic part (the pump), there is nothing to bond together.

Well, at least you got that one.

Cords and plugs are not allowed to be where concealed, which is *just one* of the reasons that panel as to be accessible without damaging the building structure or building finish. There is no requirement that it be "readily accessible", a term which is defined in the code.

Not in the 2005, I should be getting my 2008 soon (I hope - it's been on order awaiting publication of the 2008 NEC).

It's always just been 'accessible without damaging the building structure or building finish'.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Refering back to the original question from Aaron:

Metal pump housing should be bonded to the rest of the house system, right or wrong?

__________________
Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002