Did they start building the air gap in the dishwasher themselves , dont see many air gaps on top of counter. ????????????

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dmn

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They may have a "high loop" in the drain hose instead. This could explain why your not seeing them.

rick

In my twelve years of inspecting homes in the South I have never seen an air gap device installed on top of a sink. I know what they look like, but I just have never seen one. I really think that this is more of a regional or local item.

As for them being built into the dishwashers, I would have to say that just about all dishwashers have some type of check valve or a high loop installed on them. The problem is that we can not see it!

I watched a cheap GE dishwasher being installed the other day in a new home. The drain line was looped up and over the top of the unit so when it was placed under the counter it was higher than the drain on the sink. This is a high loop device, you just can't see it after the unit is in place.

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

Dan,

They can have either a high-drain loop OR an air-gap. Not required to have both-- just required to have one or the other.


Rich

Attached Images

	DW-connections.jpg (34.3 KB, 114 views)
	HighLoop.jpg (30.3 KB, 117 views)

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Dan,

And then there are those 'spensive foreign D/W's that have a checkvalve built into the drain mechanism on the unit.

I've run into a few of those units when I was doing some extremely 'high-end' new home finals while I was inspecting in the Houston market.

Many of these D/W's started at about $3K to $4K and on up from there.

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Cheers - Nolan E. Kienitz, PMP
Dallas Home Inspector
www.NolansInspections.com

what the best to write up, air gap not visible????????????????????f

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dmn

The air gap device was not visible.

Air gap device was not visible.

Inspector could not determine if a air gap device was present.

Seriously, just write up things as you see them. Don't feel like you have to be wordy. Simple and to the point.

rick

Good diagrams Richard, where did you get those?

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

Before jumping on the "air gap" bandwagon and start writing them up, and to say yourself from looking foolish ...

First check to see if the dishwasher drain hose is installed with a high loop (high point of the drain line up near the underside of the countertop) - if that is there, that is *most likely* all that is required. If that is not there, then there still may be a high loop built into the drain line where it exits the dishwasher and is attached to the side of the dishwasher - many dishwashers today only require the top of the high loop to be 21" (and some are even less than that) above the floor), meaning that just because you do not see a high loop on a newer dishwasher does not mean it is incorrect.

In over 16 years of inspections before I retired from home inspections, I have *NEVER* seen an air gap installed - just high loops.

Even if your code *requires* an air gap device, your code also likely says that all appliances must be installed according to the manufacturer's installation instructions, and if those specify a 'high loop', or, an 'air gap *or* a high loop', then no air gap is needed.

Thus, "air gaps" dropped almost completely off my list - it was replaced with "high loops".

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

"Even if your code *requires* an air gap device, your code also likely says that all appliances must be installed according to the manufacturer's installation instructions, and if those specify a 'high loop', or, an 'air gap *or* a high loop', then no air gap is needed."

Trouble is that most manufacturer's instructions also have CYA wording like in the Bosch diagram below. Air-gaps are by far the norm around here. In fact, I can't remember the last newish home without one. But...as I very much doubt the laws of physics are any different here than other parts of the country, I'm quite comfortable with a high-loop instead on older homes or remodels.

Miele is the only brand I've found so far that actually documents a check valve and doesn't require either but I'm aware that some other newer models can have the high loop attached to the back of the unit. Wouldn't it would be nice for us 'spectors if they would stick a little diagram or label on the front somewhere?

Attached Images

Boschdrainoptions.jpg (61.0 KB, 101 views)

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Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services - www.rainspect.com
Seattle, Washington

... and then there is the TX TREC SOP:


prevention;


It lists 8 items to cover ... I only picked up the one relating to this thread.

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Cheers - Nolan E. Kienitz, PMP
Dallas Home Inspector
www.NolansInspections.com

Define "backflow prevention".

'Air gap'?

'High loop'?

'Check valve'?

If it does not define "backflow prevention" as one of those three, then anything which the HI considers to be helping restrict backflow could meet that, and, if it does define backflow prevention as just one of those and gives no alternative(s) - then a recognized alternative would need to be written up as a deficiency in need of repair ... and how stupid would that make the HI look?

HI: 'Dishwasher does not have an air gap - install an air gap.'

Plumber: 'Does not require an air gap, it has a high loop, which the manufacturer allows as does the code.'

HI: 'Dishwasher does not have an air gap - I am required to report that by TREC as a deficiency requiring repair.'

Plumber: 'Man, you guys sure have stupid laws, making you write something up for repair which meets code and manufacturer's installation instructions and does not need to be repaired.'

HI: 'I know, but I am still required to do so. Dishwasher does not have an air gap and needs to have an air gap installed.'

I feel for you guys.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Nolan, I thought I've seen almost every type of DW out there.

What type STARTS at $3-4,000?

I don't know why you would state such... our SOP does not state that we have to be an arse about it. It states that we just have to report the lack of back-flow prevention-- it does not state which one must be present, just that it must be report if it is not. That's not difficult or confusing at all.

Anyone who would get into a pizzing contest with a plumber like the above, would deserve to be beat with the high drain loop hose.

Rich

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Rich,

That's why I said: "Define "backflow prevention". "

If there is not a definition of "backflow prevention" then the only real definition is that used in the codes (for the plumber to use) and a "high loop" is not going to be classified as "backflow prevention" in any code I am aware of.

Of the three listed, only an air gap is. Even a single check valve is not considered backflow prevention (at least I don't think it is).

Which lead to my little game of the HI writing it up and the plumbing saying a high loop is okay, with the HI saying ...

*IS* "backflow prevention" defined in the TREC standards? If not, let the games begin.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

This is my experience with DW's and air gaps.

I've removed many DW's and installed some over the years. (remodels)

If the dishwasher drain hose is running upwards and over the top of the kitchen cabinet directly below the counter top, then the hose is connected to the disposer. I would consider that as acceptable.

If the drain hose is passing through the cabinet at the lower section of the cabinet and connected directly to the disposer, it probably does not have a high loop or an air gap as recommended.

And if they do actually have the air gap device on top of the sink, it is always turned backwards cause the wife doesn't want to look at that dumb opening on the front of it anyway. Am i wrong? How many of you hear that?

rick

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Rick Hurst_Home Works Inspection Co_Rockwall TX
In the words of Mike Tyson.... "Everyone has a plan until they get hit inda mouf"

Those inspectors who are working in areas where the Uniform Plumbing Code is inforced should be seeing air gaps above the sink. While home inspectors are not code enforcers they should be aware of the requirements. In the 2000 UPC 807.4 requires an 'air gap' with the flood level markings at or above the floor level of the sink or drain board. That would preclude the use of a high loop.

My experience has been a high loop can allow a stopped up drain to back up into the dishwasher. I use to recommend installing an airgap or high loop but now I require an air gap as a health item.

I see air gaps all the time in ky, & very rarely even see a high loop in tn.

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Clarksville Home Inspection
JW Goad
TN License #307 | KY License #2402

If persons didn't think their dishwasher was a disposer also we probably wouldn't even need a air gap or a high loop.

As my mom used to say in her great Texan vocabulary, "Wrench (rinse) off those dishes before loading them in that thar dishwasher."

rick