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  1. #1
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    Default Dishwasher drain line

    Yesterday's inspection had PEX utilized for the dishwasher drain line. Is this okay?..It's got to be hard to do the high loop method with PEX.

    Sid

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by sidney alstad View Post
    Yesterday's inspection had PEX utilized for the dishwasher drain line. Is this okay?..It's got to be hard to do the high loop method with PEX.

    Sid
    And that does not even look like a y in that drain line connection.

    If the drain line from the washer has a hole drilled at the top of the side cabinet between the sink and the dishwasher and not the bottm then it more than likey be counted as a high loop. But the angle I see it coming in at I seriously doubt it. Hey, If the pex fits then use it but you are right, it not easy to get a tight curve with. Nothing wrong with the Pex and pressure or temp...not from a dish washer


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    The tailpiece where the DW drain line connects is horizontal, I think it should be vertical.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    You are correct R.C. Much is wrong there.

    I do not know about the new mini drawer type automatic dishwashers, but IIRC the "regular" appliances require a much larger drain hose than 1/2", ID 7/8" corregated drain hose max 10 ft is the norm I've seen.

    BTW where is the trap? Is there an air gap?

    I don't believe PEX is listed as a drain material. It is listed as supply material. Seems it would be too restrictive even if the right size for a DW drain with fittings and restrictions and keeping restrained while the DW pump cycles and pulses would be difficult. I cannot imagine it would be a permitted use.

    What is the max temp rating of red-color-coded PEX anyway? Wonder if it exceeds the high temperature discharges of an automatic dishwasher using pre-heat and sanitizing mode. Is it rated above 165 F? 150F?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-17-2010 at 05:42 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    The trap is to the right, not visible in this picture. It is under the right sink. Never have seen an air gap here in the mountains of NC, high loop method is what they were trying to achieve here, but the PEX is not very bendable, and very likely that's as long a piece that they had that day of the installation. Surprised that a code official did not catch that, the missing trap at the condensate line, and no soffit ventilation!


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by sidney alstad View Post
    The trap is to the right, not visible in this picture. It is under the right sink. Never have seen an air gap here in the mountains of NC, high loop method is what they were trying to achieve here, but the PEX is not very bendable, and very likely that's as long a piece that they had that day of the installation. Surprised that a code official did not catch that, the missing trap at the condensate line, and no soffit ventilation!
    You are likely to never see a counter top mounted air gap, they are seldom if ever used anymore. The "high loop" is what you are likely to see. I'm pretty sure that all dishwashers built in the past 5 years will have a built in backflow device but to be safe a high loop is always a safe recommendation.

    Code Bubba's seldom look at appliance installs and if you get one that looks at ventilation you have a good one....

    How old was this house?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Constructed in 2008, now a foreclosure.

    Sid


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    We still see air gaps all the time. It is unusual not to see them, even in new houses.

    The trick is to try and determine in the DW has a built in high-loop. Several DW models have a high loop on the side of the unit (where the drain line simply rises to the top of the unit, then back does). Of course this is difficult to see on installed units.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    I think that too many inspectors have a tendency to say that the loop is not present when in fact they simply don't see one. It would seem more appropriate to say that the presence of the loop was not confirmed and continue on with the inspection.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    It would seem more appropriate to say that the presence of the loop was not confirmed and continue on with the inspection.

    Even more appropriate is to state that no high loop was present in the cabinet and that a high loop is required if an air gap is not installed, and that no air gap is installed; have contractor document if the dishwasher does or does not have a built-in high loop, as SOME do; a high loop or air gap needs to be installed if there is no built-in high loop on the dishwasher.

    That gives direction to MAKE A REPAIR, and states what is required, and leaves the execution of the repair up to the contractor depending on what the contractor finds - AND states that the contractor should document the condition either way.

    Why document the condition? If the contractor does not find a high loop, documents it, and corrects it - they are backing you up. If the contractor does find a high loop and documents it, no correction is needed - and they are also backing you up. Either way you come out looking like you knew what you were referring to and the contractor is just agreeing with you (and making a repair if a repair is needed).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Jerry,

    I disagree. If I have no reason to suspect a problem I don't recommend a contractor come in anyway just to verify a correct condition. I don't suggest a roofer come in to check the nailing patterns or to see if the step flashing is up behind the building paper. I don't recommend an electrician come in and confirm the depth the a ground rod or to have a HVAC tech pull a heat exchanger to see if there's trouble. The list could get pretty extensive and at some point the client is likely going to wonder why he/she hired me. If I follow my contract I am going to be concerned with what I can see - not to question everything that I can't. But that's just my approach.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    If I have no reason to suspect a problem ...

    Eric,

    You do have reason to suspect a problem.

    You KNOW that a high loop or an air gap is required and neither is present.

    You DO NOT KNOW that the dishwasher has a high loop.

    WHO is going to answer that question for your client BEFORE they buy the house unless you call for a repair?

    Or do you make it a habit of calling things out to cover your butt and then not calling for repairs, helping the deal go through and then leaving it up to your client to foot the bill when they find that what you called out (excuse me, 'did not call out but called out') actually needed to be done?

    If so, why are you even doing inspections? I would expect that stuff from Tony Mount, and a couple of others on this board, but not from you or most others on this board. I am puzzled at your response.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Jerry,

    I may sorely disappoint you but I don't point out a need to confirm the presence of a high loop just because I can't see it. Like the ground rod I referenced earlier, I don't recommend it be dug up to confirm its length. I doubt that my approach is deficient or considered bowing to the agents.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    I have read the install instructions for several makes of DW, they all say the same thing. Connect the DW drain 20" or more above the floor or connect to an air gap.
    Seems that as long as the drain is 20" above the floor the requirement for a high loop is satisfied, at least to the manufactures.
    It does not look like there is a need to verify that another high loop exist as long as the DW drain connection is at least 20" high.
    Hope this helps.

    http://specs.retaildeck.com/CACHE/FILE18114.PDF
    http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...ruction_EN.pdf
    http://www.maytag.com/assets/product...ruction_EN.pdf

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Both are good points. In the absence of an air gap, a high loop is required. But do you call for a contractor to confirm this? If nothing is wrong, you may get a client who wants you to pay for the service call, which can be $125 around here. But what if the DW is improperly installed?

    Eric is also right that just because we can't confirm something, we don't always call for confirmation (i.e. ground rod).

    A good solution splits the middle. Inform, and responsibly* disclaim the item;

    "A high-loop or air gap is required at the DW drain line. The presence or absence of a high-loop could not be confirmed as none was observed in the cabinet. Some DW's have a built-in high loop. Removing the DW to determine proper installation is beyond the scope of a general home inspeciton. Client is advised to confirm proper installation of the DW drain line prior to the end of the contingency period."

    Or something like that which prompts the homeowner to take action, but doesn't put the HI on the hook for a service call.

    *Resposibly disclaiming an item to me means that you explain why you are not or cannot evaluate something.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Even though the instructions state 20" above floor, the IRC has different requirements.

    2006 IRC

    "The dishwasher waste line shall rise and be securely fastened to the
    underside of the counter before connecting to the sink tail piece
    or the food grinder."

    Soooo, the drain line should be connected to the counter top (at the sink) or have an air gap.
    I can not see where anyone would connect the drain line to the counter top behind the DW. Sooooo if there is not an air gap and the drain line is NOT connected to the counter top at the sink, the drain is most likely wrong. This can easily be seen without removing the DW.

    Nothing in the code that says "high loop".



    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    In the absence of an air gap, a high loop is required. But do you call for a contractor to confirm this? If nothing is wrong, you may get a client who wants you to pay for the service call, which can be $125 around here. But what if the DW is improperly installed?

    You, and maybe Eric too, seem to be missing the fact that home inspectors cannot REQUIRE ANYTHING to be done.

    The home inspector points things out (i.e., writes them up), explains them, and then it is up to THE CLIENT to negotiate with the seller as to what THE CLIENT WANTS the seller to address.

    Thus, when THE CLIENT DECIDES to address the issue, if the home inspector as worded it properly (as I gave an example of) it is then THE CLIENT who takes care of the charges for that work, whether or not the client takes care of those charges by having the seller address the condition prior to closing or whether the client takes care of those charges themselves for their own clarification after closing.

    If the home inspector writes things up properly, the home inspector will be able to do a better job (i.e., a more thorough inspection and more through report documenting EVERYTHING which was found) and then it is up to the now informed client to make all further decisions.

    With the way some of you guys word things, it is no wonder you are afraid people will ask you to pay for something.


    It all comes down to managing your client's expectations - giving them more than they expected while educating them as to what they do with that information. Fail to manage your client's expectations and you put yourself in a tough place, properly manage your client's expectations and you put your client AND you in a very enviable place to be, one where all home inspectors should be and all of their clients should be.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Why is this debate raging on THIS string, more than 10 days after the OPs questions were addressed, he responded to follow up questions, now all the sudden some nonsense not relevant to the OP's descriptions here and elsewhere, and the photograph supplied?

    It is irrelevant, a plumber needs to come in and remediate this plumbing debacle!

    There is an elbow attached to the drain basket, there is no decent sweep of that elbow for transition to horizontal drainage, more importantly there is not even a HINT of a vertical tail piece! The not-code-compliant DW connection tail piece is in a HORIZONTAL position!Apparently PEX tube, and some sort of ??? transition to gasketed hose and not a standard size or connected DW DRAINAGE hose material is being used as a DW discharge prior to its wrong connection to a sink drain. There is no trap in sight the OP tells us it is to the right AFTER a second sink bowl - so this debacle gets worse. Lots of slip joints on horizontal drain incorectly configured getting high temperature discharge (ugh!). A high loop or counter height air-gap is NOT going to SOLVE or remediate the DIY plumbing debacle health hazard under this kitchen sink.



    Enough already, YES a LICENSED PLUMBER is required if remediation is going to be done prior to closing. It was already stated this was a vacant property. The OP made a series of posts and cross referenced them in several different areas of the board. On this thread he said it was in foreclosure, and has alluded to some of myriad other issues this property had. IIRC the builder ran out of money, someone bought and tried to DIY finish it and went into foreclosure.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-01-2010 at 10:45 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    I have seen "IIRC" on some of your post, but do not know what it means.
    What is it?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Aside from all of the other issues noted with this installation, the PEX tubing is a definite deal breaker -- 1/2" pex may be 1/2" CTS on the outside, but it is only 3/8" on the inside, which means the discharge line is:

    A: Insufficiently sized.

    B: Telescoped where the OEM discharge hose is connected to the 1/2" Pex.

    C: If a PEX insert fitting was used at either connection point (OEM hose or Tailpiece) then the PEX discharge line is even further restricted.


  21. #21
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    Post Re: Dishwasher drain line

    If I do not see an air gap of some type, I state that, and indicate that it is required, and that the absence of it is a health hazard. A licensed plumber is recommended for repair/replacement if necessary. The same if there is no air gap at the drain of an RO unit, a water softener, or any other appliance that is connected to both the potable water system and the waste water system. I would rather honk people off, than kill them through negligence.

    As to the original question, Watson has that right.


    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    I have seen "IIRC" on some of your post, but do not know what it means.
    What is it?
    Rick Cantrell,

    Okay, I'll bite. I assume this is directed to me, since I used the acronym in the immediately prior post.

    There are scores, if not hundreds or thousands of acronyms and abbreviations used on English language forums, boards, and blogs. I am not the first nor the only to use IIRC on this forum. Some of these acronyms and abbreviations go back to the early days of subscription paid direct dial-up B.B.S., some go back to the Telex days, some go back to morse code communications professional and amature, and some other sources.

    IIRC: If I Recall Correctly.
    IOW: In Other Words
    BTDT: Been There Done That
    LOL: Laughing (or Laugh) Out Loud, other enhanced forms LMAO, LMBO, LMSBO, ROTFLMAO
    FUBAR: Fxxxed Up Beyond All Recognition
    ASAP: As Soon As Possible
    WAG: Wild Azz Guess, sometimes SWAG
    WWW: World Wide Web ("internet")
    VTY: Very Truly Yours
    TYVM: Thank You Very Much
    Tnx: Thanks
    Tx: often seen used as Thanks, used to mean telex.

    I am sure there are sources on the WWW where you could find extensive lists, some which may or may not agree with my rendition above. You might find some using your favorite search engine.

    HTH.

    H.G.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Thanks H.G.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  24. #24
    Philippe Heller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You, and maybe Eric too, seem to be missing the fact that home inspectors cannot REQUIRE ANYTHING to be done.

    The home inspector points things out (i.e., writes them up), explains them, and then it is up to THE CLIENT to negotiate with the seller as to what THE CLIENT WANTS the seller to address.
    Once again you are parsing words in an attempt to be condescending. You mis-quoted what I said. In my example comment, I did recommend that 'client' confirm. I (HI) do not REQUIRE anything.

    You are correct about setting expectations, something we try to do as well as possible. We send emails as soon as an appointment is set with our standards of practice, our contract, and links to our website for information. But this does not stop clients from expecting more that we can deliver within the SOP's. My company deals with hundreds of real residential clients each year.

    Keep in mind that the idea of this discussion forum is to discuss things and exchange ideas. It is not a deposition.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    Once again you are parsing words in an attempt to be condescending.
    And, as usual, you are again wrong ... (anytime you try to state the reason someone else did something you will quite likely be wrong) ...

    I stated what I did as I did so I could GET YOUR ATTENTION and point out the fallacy of those ways.

    That simple.

    You mis-quoted what I said.
    No, but I probably did use what you said in a way you had not thought of, and maybe not intended, and if what you say is that vague, then it is not I who needs to be careful of what they say, but you.

    Keep in mind that the idea of this discussion forum is to discuss things and exchange ideas. It is not a deposition.
    The exchange of ideas sometimes can only be accomplished through in a deposition-like exchange - if one is always nicey-nice then many times the unasked questions are ... well ... left "unasked and unanswered", and yet those are the very questions which needed to be asked and answered.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  26. #26
    Philippe Heller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    You mis-quoted my suggested wording which said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    Client is advised to confirm proper installation of the DW drain line prior to the end of the contingency period.
    Your snipe said that:

    You, and maybe Eric too, seem to be missing the fact that home inspectors cannot REQUIRE ANYTHING to be done.

    The home inspector points things out (i.e., writes them up), explains them, and then it is up to THE CLIENT to negotiate with the seller as to what THE CLIENT WANTS the seller to address.
    If you actually read the thread, you would see that I am trying to discuss the point that wording this observation is important so that the HI doesn't get stuck with a bill.

    We do a couple thousand inspections a year with a superb reputation, and zero lawsuits. Are you still even doing home inspections?


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    If you actually read the thread, you would see that I am trying to discuss the point that wording this observation is important so that the HI doesn't get stuck with a bill.
    I did actually read it, and I read it again - it appears that you forgot what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    But do you call for a contractor to confirm this? If nothing is wrong,

    You said that EVEN THOUGH THINGS WERE WRONG.

    THAT is the confusing part ... saying "if nothing is wrong" while we were/are discussing "things which are/were wrong".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Rick Cantrell,

    Okay, I'll bite. I assume this is directed to me, since I used the acronym in the immediately prior post.

    There are scores, if not hundreds or thousands of acronyms and abbreviations used on English language forums, boards, and blogs. I am not the first nor the only to use IIRC on this forum. Some of these acronyms and abbreviations go back to the early days of subscription paid direct dial-up B.B.S., some go back to the Telex days, some go back to morse code communications professional and amature, and some other sources.

    IIRC: If I Recall Correctly.
    IOW: In Other Words
    BTDT: Been There Done That
    LOL: Laughing (or Laugh) Out Loud, other enhanced forms LMAO, LMBO, LMSBO, ROTFLMAO
    FUBAR: Fxxxed Up Beyond All Recognition
    ASAP: As Soon As Possible
    WAG: Wild Azz Guess, sometimes SWAG
    WWW: World Wide Web ("internet")
    VTY: Very Truly Yours
    TYVM: Thank You Very Much
    Tnx: Thanks
    Tx: often seen used as Thanks, used to mean telex.

    I am sure there are sources on the WWW where you could find extensive lists, some which may or may not agree with my rendition above. You might find some using your favorite search engine.

    HTH.

    H.G.
    Hm

    What does SPOS mean


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Hm

    What does SPOS mean
    Dunno, enlighten us with the OT.

    WAG: PoS but modified with Stupid in front.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Dishwasher drain line

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Dunno, enlighten us with the OT.

    WAG: PoS but modified with Stupid in front.
    Sorry was the word I thought of but I guess it could be a number of words


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