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  1. #1
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    Default Wire to Hot water tank

    Does the wire to the Hot water tank need to be in some type of conduit. I always recommend that it be in a flexible conduit either plastic or MC for safety however I have a contractor arguing that Romex is OK. My position is that Romex is to be used inside walls cavities or in inaccessible areas locations Also do they need to have disconnects? please site code if I'm correct so I can prove my point. Or maybe I'm just wrong But I still think it is a safety Issue.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Hoffman View Post
    Does the wire to the Hot water tank need to be in some type of conduit. I always recommend that it be in a flexible conduit either plastic or MC for safety however I have a contractor arguing that Romex is OK. My position is that Romex is to be used inside walls cavities or in inaccessible areas locations Also do they need to have disconnects? please site code if I'm correct so I can prove my point. Or maybe I'm just wrong But I still think it is a safety Issue.
    Yes, it needs to be protected. NM cable needs to be protected from the appliance to the wall and with the proper strain relief clamps/bushings to keep the cable from being stressed and pulled upon.

    A disconnect is not needed at the water heater as long as the breaker has a lockout device on it.

    Ask the builder to cite the code that it is not required! I think that the code cite is going to be found under protecting NM cable.... 334.15B or something near that.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    The only exception I know of is for a mobile home, no conduit required because the water heater is behind a panel, wiring not subject to damage.

    BTW, "Water heater" is more correct than HWT.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    If the wiring is subject to physical damage it would require protection. Physical damage is not defined under the NEC and is a subjective term. I have never seen an inspector deem a short run from the wall to the wiring compartment or tywrapped to the cold needing protection.

    Is the WH in sight of the panel? If so no disconnect is required.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    The wiring method must be properly installed, secured and supported according to its article. An egc is required now. Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required.


    Type NM Cable as a wiring method is discussed in article 334. There should be more than one "wire" (conductor), NM is a cable assembly which is a "wiring method", the cable assembly is comprised of more than one "wire" or conductor. Depending on the vintage of the cable it may or may not contain a grounding conductor, which may or may not be sufficiently sized in relation to the ungrounded conductors within the cable assembly. Generally, "regular" NM is a "dry location" only wiring method. Although slightly flexible for purposes of installation, NM is not a cord, may not be used as an appliance cord or flexible cord, and when crimped, flexed or stressed, or utilized when compressed, is subject to damage, including that caused by over-heating.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-16-2011 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The wiring method must be properly installed, secured and supported according to its article. An egc is required now. Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required.


    Type NM Cable as a wiring method is discussed in article 334. There should be more than one "wire" (conductor), NM is a cable assembly which is a "wiring method", the cable assembly is comprised of more than one "wire" or conductor. Depending on the vintage of the cable it may or may not contain a grounding conductor, which may or may not be sufficiently sized in relation to the ungrounded conductors within the cable assembly. Generally, "regular" NM is a "dry location" only wiring method. Although slightly flexible for purposes of installation, NM is not a cord, may not be used as an appliance cord or flexible cord, and when crimped, flexed or stressed, or utilized when compressed, is subject to damage, including that caused by over-heating.
    Thanks for your input but I don't understand your position on should it be allowed?


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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The wiring method must be properly installed, secured and supported according to its article. An egc is required now. Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required.
    Huh?

    The water heater only needs one disconnect, and that disconnect does not have to be at the water heater.

    If the panel is a split bus panel, the breaker/fuse in the split bus panel can serve as the disconnect for the water heater provided there is a lockout on the breaker, and, if a fuse panel, the fuse would be a pull out, so remove the pull out and take it with you to the water heater when working on it.

    If I am incorrect, please provide a code reference for this: "Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required."

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Hoffman View Post
    Thanks for your input but I don't understand your position on should it be allowed?
    Hunter,

    In H. G.'s defense, I don't see in his post where he is saying it may be allowed - yes, he did edit his post, but the last edit was quite some time before your post, and your post contains his current (at this time) post ... unless I am missing it where he says it is allowed??

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    I think a good portion of HG's post was concerning the wording in the title of the post where it said "wire" as opposed to wiring method or cable.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Huh?

    The water heater only needs one disconnect, and that disconnect does not have to be at the water heater.

    If the panel is a split bus panel, the breaker/fuse in the split bus panel can serve as the disconnect for the water heater provided there is a lockout on the breaker, and, if a fuse panel, the fuse would be a pull out, so remove the pull out and take it with you to the water heater when working on it.

    If I am incorrect, please provide a code reference for this: "Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required."
    Utilization equipment permanently fastened in place (wiring method and to building/systems) specifically an electric storage type water heater or a 4 L+ capacity non-storage type electric water heater, requires an "other" disconnecting "means". I do not believe there can be any dispute that such a device is a continuous duty installation.

    OP has described use of NM, therefore not cord-and-plug device. Yes I presume other than 120V and/or cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment.

    If a service disconnect circuit breaker and there is no other disconnecting means between it and the water heater itself - there is no "other" disconnecting means. IF the water heater has no other primary qualifying singluar rated disconnect (rare IME for a two-element storage type residential electric water heater to have a qualifying unit switch which may serve as "the" disconnect means) then a service equipment split bus panel's disconnect/circuit breaker supplying a MW (individual) branch circuit would not provide the required "the" disconnect "means" because it is a service disconnect not a branch circuit disconnect, as a service disconnect means it can only be an "other disconnecting means". "Other" implies one in addition to...i.e. another means to disconnect. For example the main in a main cb panel., an "ahead" or outside service disconnect prior to a main power feeder, etc. may serve as the "other" disconnect means; otherwise there would be required a primary means to disconnect for the equipment/appliance, i.e. electric water heater, not necessarily at the location of the water heater, if lockable. The Main or service disconnect may serve as the "other" disconnect "means". If there is both a Service disconnect, and an individual circuit branch circuit breaker then the individual branch circuit breaker which breaks/opens both poles at the same time/motion or a 2-p switch, or a pull-out disconnect may serve as the primary disconnect (lockable if not in-sight) and the MAIN or a "service disconnect" may serve as the "other" disconnect "means".

    422.30, 422.30(B) refers to the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, as the disconnecting means. IMO an individual circuit branch circuit circuit breaker is not the same thing as a service equipment disconnecting means and does not break/open the grounded conductor or meet ex.s.

    422.34 referring to a unit switch acting as the disconnecting means requires "other means for disconnection are provied" in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D), (D) is for other occupancies, not one-family dwellings, two-family dwellings, nor multi-family dwellings.
    422.34(C) states:
    One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting means.

    Please show me where THE service disconnecting means may be permitted to serve as THE disconnecting means (not "other disconnecting means) for an appliance, or utilization equipment, specifically an electric water heater, greater than 120V, less than 277V, in a one-family, two-family, or multi-family dwelling. Thank you in advance.

    Thank you.

    P.S. Terminations, temperature limitations, OP indicated Type NM. We are agreed, are we not, that an ECG is now required.


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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Hoffman View Post
    Thanks for your input but I don't understand your position on should it be allowed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Hoffman View Post
    Does the wire to the Hot water tank need to be in some type of conduit. I always recommend that it be in a flexible conduit either plastic or MC for safety however I have a contractor arguing that Romex is OK. My position is that Romex is to be used inside walls cavities or in inaccessible areas locations Also do they need to have disconnects? please site code if I'm correct so I can prove my point. Or maybe I'm just wrong But I still think it is a safety Issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The wiring method must be properly installed, secured and supported according to its article. An egc is required now. Minimum two disconnects between service point and appliance, IOW if split bus - secondary disconnect is required.


    Type NM Cable as a wiring method is discussed in article 334. There should be more than one "wire" (conductor), NM is a cable assembly which is a "wiring method", the cable assembly is comprised of more than one "wire" or conductor. Depending on the vintage of the cable it may or may not contain a grounding conductor, which may or may not be sufficiently sized in relation to the ungrounded conductors within the cable assembly. Generally, "regular" NM is a "dry location" only wiring method. Although slightly flexible for purposes of installation, NM is not a cord, may not be used as an appliance cord or flexible cord, and when crimped, flexed or stressed, or utilized when compressed, is subject to damage, including that caused by over-heating.
    Have you referred to NEC Article 334 yet? How has this (if at all) affected "your position" regarding the installation and the conditons thereof, about which you inquire?

    Unfortunatey all sentance spacing and paragraph formatting was lost in original post so I edited it for ease of reading, this was done timely enough when it was noticed, and long before there was any other participation on the thread.


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    Post Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Regardless of Code stipulations, which are minimums, NMC used to supply a water heater is not "safe" in the sense that the conductor insulation is subject to damage. Flexible metal conduit or metal clad cable should be used. And yes, an equipment grounding conductor should be present. This applies to all 240 volt appliances.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    422.30, 422.30(B) refers to the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, as the disconnecting means. IMO an individual circuit branch circuit circuit breaker is not the same thing as a service equipment disconnecting means and does not break/open the grounded conductor or meet ex.s.
    So, just to make sure that I am following you ... the branch circuit conductors running from the split bus panel to the water heater are service entrance conductors?

    No, those branch circuit conductors are ... branch circuit ... conductors and the disconnect which protects those branch circuit conductors is the branch circuit overcurrent device. That branch circuit overcurrent device does also HELP protect the service entrance conductors as that pullout would be ONE OF the mains, but that branch circuit overcurrent device, like all split bus panel "mains" does not protect the service entrance conductors - that main could blow and the service entrance conductors still have current flowing through them.

    422.34 referring to a unit switch acting as the disconnecting means requires "other means for disconnection are provied" in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D), (D) is for other occupancies, not one-family dwellings, two-family dwellings, nor multi-family dwellings.
    422.34(C) states:
    One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting means.
    I know you know this, H. G., but the first thing you need to do when you apply a code section is to make sure the code section is applicable to the application to which you are trying to apply it - and 422.34 is applicable to "Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means" and there is NO unit switch in the water heater appliance: (bold and underlining are mine)
    - 422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means.
    - - A unit switch(es) with a marked-off position that is a part of an appliance and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this article where other means for disconnection are provided in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D).

    The water heater has no unit switch which is part of the appliance, thus 422.34 is not applicable.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    No Mr. Peck, and sadly you have missed what I did say, invented your own twisted interpretation of what I did say, and thrown the mark off.

    What I said was that IME few, if any residential water heaters, esp. those not cord and plug connected and operating at over 120V, have qualifying unit switches.

    You also ignored the P.S. regarding terminations, temperature limitations, and the reminder that the OP has indicated Type NM ("Romex"). You'll note in my first reply to the OP I referenced Article 334.

    In a split bus panel operating as "service equipment" the 2-pole 240 breakers are service disconnects, not mere "branch circuit breakers".

    Service equipment rated disconnect terminations are 75C. Branch rated circuit breakers may be 60C or slant rated 60C/75C or 75C.

    It is obvious you did not read what I wrote, nor what I referenced.

    The OP has not been specific as to the circumstances and conditions of the installation, nor the nature of the utilization equipment. We can assume an electric storage-type water heater at greater than 30 gal capacity operating at greater than 120V but we don't know. We can assume 120/240 service but we don't know that to be the case. We could assume an inside the thermal envelope of a single family home installation, but again we don't know that to be the case. For all we know, this "hot water heater" might be an insty-hot device installed at a sink, it might be a 120V 30 Gal or less accessory or supplimental water heater installed in other than a one-family dwelling unit, such as a studio or office over a detached garage, or a manufactured home upon a foundation, or a storage type water heater installed in an unconditioned attic; too many possiblities as to just what it "could be" or what is meant by "the builder".

    To the OP,

    Regarding your description/concerns, you might also review NEC sections 400.8, 400.10, and 400.14.


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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    No Mr. Peck, and sadly you have missed what I did say, ...
    No, H. G., 90% of your post was trying to justify having stated that TWO disconnects is required, and my post was responding to that,

    You then spend so time and space pointing out that unit switches were ...

    So I pointed out that the code section you posted did not apply to the discussion.

    What I said was that IME few, if any residential water heaters, esp. those not cord and plug connected and operating at over 120V, have qualifying unit switches.
    That part I agree with, but, as pointed out above, 90% of your post was trying to justify having stated that TWO disconnects is required ... and two disconnects is not required.

    You also ignored the ...
    I ignored the rest of your post as no one here likes to see all the incorrect and inapplicable information and then follow-up discussions pointing out the incorrect and inapplicable information as it just breaks down the usefulness of this board - the best way to deal with your non-applicable information and appease the masses is to ignore that information ... so I did.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    So, just to make sure that I am following you ... the branch circuit conductors running from the split bus panel to the water heater are service entrance conductors?

    No, those branch circuit conductors are ... branch circuit ... conductors and the disconnect which protects those branch circuit conductors is the branch circuit overcurrent device. That branch circuit overcurrent device does also HELP protect the service entrance conductors as that pullout would be ONE OF the mains, but that branch circuit overcurrent device, like all split bus panel "mains" does not protect the service entrance conductors - that main could blow and the service entrance conductors still have current flowing through them.


    .
    No, sheesh, don't be idiotic.

    There is no MAINS service disconnect on a split bus panel acting as service equipment.

    The 2-P disconnects are the service disconnects. There can be no more than six of them.

    YOU inserted discussion about branch circuit conductors. I said nothing about same.

    The discussion was regarding DISCONNECTS, terminations, and temperature ratings.

    Edited to add:

    "Hot Water Tank". A lot of assuming going on here. I don't believe the OP has even called this device a water heater. let alone one that heats water using electricity to do so. For all we know it could be a megastore or other "water tank", may or may not be an indirect water heater, with an electric recirculator pump, a fuel fired water heater with a power venter and/or a recirculator. We also don't know if "the contractor" has used "romex" in lieu of a cord, or in lieu of a cord and plug. We also don't know if said "hot water tank" is one used for potable water system.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-16-2011 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There is no MAINS service disconnect on a split bus panel acting as service equipment.

    The 2-P disconnects are service disconnects. There can be no more than six of them.
    Those are the MAINS ... sheesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.
    YOU inserted discussion about branch circuit conductors. I said nothing about same.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    If there is both a Service disconnect, and an individual circuit branch circuit breaker then the individual branch circuit breaker ...

    422.30, 422.30(B) refers to the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, as the disconnecting means. IMO an individual circuit branch circuit circuit breaker
    "Branch-circuit" was brought into the discussion by you.

    Sheesh ... I'm outta here before this turns into one of those never-ending threads people complain about ... I hope that any further information you post is: 1) applicable; 2) accurate and correct ... but I would not want to place any bets on it being either.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No, H. G., 90% of your post was trying to justify having stated that TWO disconnects is required, and my post was responding to that,

    You then spend so time and space pointing out that unit switches were ...

    So I pointed out that the code section you posted did not apply to the discussion.



    That part I agree with, but, as pointed out above, 90% of your post was trying to justify having stated that TWO disconnects is required ... and two disconnects is not required.





    I ignored the rest of your post as no one here likes to see all the incorrect and inapplicable information and then follow-up discussions pointing out the incorrect and inapplicable information as it just breaks down the usefulness of this board - the best way to deal with your non-applicable information and appease the masses is to ignore that information ... so I did.

    OF COURSE YOU IGNORED THE "REST" (one paragraph and the POINT) because you couldn't repond to it!

    YOU ALSO IGNORED THE BEGINNING.


    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...snip
    If a service disconnect circuit breaker and there is no other disconnecting means between it and the water heater itself - there is no "other" disconnecting means. IF the water heater has no other primary qualifying singluar rated disconnect (rare IME for a two-element storage type residential electric water heater to have a qualifying unit switch which may serve as "the" disconnect means) then a service equipment split bus panel's disconnect/circuit breaker supplying a MW (individual) branch circuit would not provide the required "the" disconnect "means" because it is a service disconnect not a branch circuit disconnect, as a service disconnect means it can only be an "other disconnecting means". "Other" implies one in addition to...i.e. another means to disconnect. For example the main in a main cb panel., an "ahead" or outside service disconnect prior to a main power feeder, etc. may serve as the "other" disconnect means; otherwise there would be required a primary means to disconnect for the equipment/appliance, i.e. electric water heater, not necessarily at the location of the water heater, if lockable. The Main or service disconnect may serve as the "other" disconnect "means". If there is both a Service disconnect, and an individual circuit branch circuit breaker then the individual branch circuit breaker which breaks/opens both poles at the same time/motion or a 2-p switch, or a pull-out disconnect may serve as the primary disconnect (lockable if not in-sight) and the MAIN or a "service disconnect" may serve as the "other" disconnect "means".

    422.30, 422.30(B) refers to the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, as the disconnecting means. IMO an individual circuit branch circuit circuit breaker is not the same thing as a service equipment disconnecting means and does not break/open the grounded conductor or meet ex.s.

    422.34 referring to a unit switch acting as the disconnecting means requires "other means for disconnection are provied" in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D), (D) is for other occupancies, not one-family dwellings, two-family dwellings, nor multi-family dwellings.
    422.34(C) states:
    One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting means.

    Please show me where THE service disconnecting means may be permitted to serve as THE disconnecting means (not "other disconnecting means) for an appliance, or utilization equipment, specifically an electric water heater, greater than 120V, less than 277V, in a one-family, two-family, or multi-family dwelling. Thank you in advance.


    P.S. Terminations, temperature limitations, OP indicated Type NM. We are agreed, are we not, that an ECG is now required.
    I did NOT ever say that "two dedicated means to disconnect ONLY the utilization equipment are required". I have no way to know what the circumstances of the OPs installation are based upon the meager information and vague descriptions the OP has provided. I'm sure you think you KNOW, but you couldn't possibly KNOW, only assume or think you know, unless YOU authored the post.

    What I did say is that should there ONLY be service equipment split bus between service point and the utilization equipment, as of this time we do NOT KNOW what the equipment IS actually, that another means to disconnect permanently installed utilization equipment, besides the service disconnect itself is required.

    YOU are the only one that made any inferance that it may or may not have to be local to the equipment (not!).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-16-2011 at 07:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    I hear you guys, mums the word ... keep it zipped ... let him rant ... got it.

    Bye on this one.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Same personal DIY issue as the "hot box" issue?http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...2-hot-box.html


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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    BTW, "Water heater" is more correct than HWT.
    Perhaps only for tankless water heaters.

    If you have a water heater with a tank, hot water heater is perfectly acceptable.

    For example, when I go sit in my hot tub, the water is 101F. That is hot on my skin, but I can get used to it. However, water heaters and hot water heaters usually have a thermostat that the manufacturer has programmed to be either 120F or 125F at its recommended setting. I can assure you that those two temperatures are hot.

    If the tank of water sits there all day, with no one using any water, the water will eventually cool down. If we use my water heater as an example, the manufacturer says that the notches on the thermostat are in 10 increments and that the recommended setting, with a bigger notch, is 125F. So what happens if the water cools down from 125F to 115F? The burners fire up and start heating the water back up to 125F. So the water heater is in effect heating the 115F hot water back up to 125F. Therefore, it's okay to call it a hot water heater!


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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    Perhaps only for tankless water heaters.

    If you have a water heater with a tank, hot water heater is perfectly acceptable.

    For example, when I go sit in my hot tub, the water is 101F. That is hot on my skin, but I can get used to it. However, water heaters and hot water heaters usually have a thermostat that the manufacturer has programmed to be either 120F or 125F at its recommended setting. I can assure you that those two temperatures are hot.

    If the tank of water sits there all day, with no one using any water, the water will eventually cool down. If we use my water heater as an example, the manufacturer says that the notches on the thermostat are in 10 increments and that the recommended setting, with a bigger notch, is 125F. So what happens if the water cools down from 125F to 115F? The burners fire up and start heating the water back up to 125F. So the water heater is in effect heating the 115F hot water back up to 125F. Therefore, it's okay to call it a hot water heater!
    Common error and misconception in thinking ... the tank holds 'hot' water, when you use some of the 'hot' water, that 'hot' water is replaced with 'cold' water ... you are therefore heating that 'cold' water up to the temperature of what the 'hot' water was before the 'hot' water was used.

    Therefore, one could argue that the water heater is a COLD water heater ... except that only applies from the first application of energy from a 'cold' tank.

    The reality is that the WATER heater is heating the 'cold' water and the 'warm' water up to be 'hot' water, therefore the term WATER HEATER is the correct term.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    the tank holds 'hot' water, when you use some of the 'hot' water, that 'hot' water is replaced with 'cold' water ... you are therefore heating that 'cold' water up to the temperature of what the 'hot' water was before the 'hot' water was used.

    Therefore, one could argue that the water heater is a COLD water heater ... except that only applies from the first application of energy from a 'cold' tank.

    The reality is that the WATER heater is heating the 'cold' water and the 'warm' water up to be 'hot' water, therefore the term WATER HEATER is the correct term.
    Common misperception because you're failing to understand that there is no separate section in the tank for cold water. It immediately mixes with the hot water when it enters the tank, thereby creating warm water and causing the thermotstat to fire up the burners. Unless you turn off the water heater and use all the water in it, then fill it up again, and then turn the heater back on, the cold water is mixing with the hot water to create warm water, i.e., water that is colder than the hot water but hotter than the cold water.

    Therefore hot water heater is okay, especially since everyone understands what it is! Kind of like main panel and subpanel. LOL


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Nope. The manufacturers call them water heaters. And the OP is talking electric, not gas. Cold in the bottom, warm in the middle, hot on top.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    Common misperception because you're failing to understand that there is no separate section in the tank for cold water.
    Not failing to understand, failing to explain in words you can understand, yes, I guess so.

    The water in the water heater is not all the same temperature, and when the hot water is drawn out the top of the tank (yes, the hot is drawn out from the top of the tank) that water is replaced with cold water, which enters through a fitting in the top of the tank, goes through a dip tube, and exits down near the bottom of the tank.

    The water in the tank is coldest at the bottom and hottest at the top, and warm somewhere near the middle of the tank.

    Not sure if you get that or not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
    chris mcintyre Guest

    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    You do not need a hot water heater, if your water is hot there is no reason to heat it.

    If your water is warm or cold and you want it hot, then you will need a water heater.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    My house today had a Hot Water Boiler.

    Plus the breaker panel was a "fuse box". Yes, we know what he means. But if the homeowner called me up complaining about his fuses and his boiler, I'd be wondering if my files were mixed up. That house has a breaker panel and an oil furnace.

    This thread was about the cable feed to the water heater, right?

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    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  28. #28
    George Wells's Avatar
    George Wells Guest

    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Hoffman View Post
    Does the wire to the Hot water tank need to be in some type of conduit. I always recommend that it be in a flexible conduit either plastic or MC for safety however I have a contractor arguing that Romex is OK. My position is that Romex is to be used inside walls cavities or in inaccessible areas locations Also do they need to have disconnects? please site code if I'm correct so I can prove my point. Or maybe I'm just wrong But I still think it is a safety Issue.

    I cannot comment on any code requirements because because I am not familiar with the requirements in your specific location. However, I get a lot of electrical contractors from West Virginia and eastern Ohio (who also work in WV; Ohio and WV have reciprocity) in my NEC continuing education classes. Connecting water heaters with NM is a common practice on both sides of the border.

    My advice with all questions related to building codes is to contact the local inspection division. You may find that they are very helpful. Knowing what national codes have to say about a particular topic may be educational and informative but what really matters when citing code requirements is what is or is not acceptable in your community. Of course, as a home inspector, you can express your opinion if you disagree. Just be very careful about citing codes.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Wire to Hot water tank

    Quote Originally Posted by George Wells View Post
    Knowing what national codes have to say about a particular topic may be educational and informative but what really matters when citing code requirements is what is or is not acceptable in your community. Of course, as a home inspector, you can express your opinion if you disagree. Just be very careful about citing codes.
    Except that home inspectors are not code inspectors, and a home inspector backing up their writing up of a problem with a nationally recognized code is in their client's best interest as the home inspector has no authority to require any correction, all the home inspector has to do is to educate their client as to what they find, and why it is considered a problem.

    Just because some jurisdictions are way behind the curve does not mean the home inspector should be behind the curve as well.

    I can also tell you from experience, my experience, is that home inspectors CAN influence local enforcement of the code by point out what the nationally accepted codes say and the local AHJ has to explain to the client (who calls the AHJ) why THE AHJ is behind the curve as far as safety to the public goes.

    Home inspectors CAN have a positive influence on local enforcement of the code, as has been cited here on multiple occasions.

    One occasion a few years ago was that no AHJ in Texas was enforcing installing sediment traps as the required gas appliances, and through the diligence of several Texas inspectors, many AHJ in Texas are now enforcing the requirement for sediment traps.

    To all home inspectors, do not lower your standards to lower local standards, you may well be the influence which is required to update those local standards to higher current, or at least more current, standards.

    Yes, it is good to know the local codes and standards, just do not stop there.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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