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  1. #1
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    I need some help here folks. For the 4ooth time today I have encountered another AHJ that tells me a "Jaccuzi" bathtub pump equipment does not have to be bonded if the house is plumbed with PEX. Am I wrong in telling him he's ever so mistaken?

    Every manufacturer's installation instructions, Jaccuzi, Royal, Kohler, et al. says the same thing - bond it. NEC 680.74 seems to me to say bond it.

    I have seen contractors run the 8awg bonding jumper to a ground rod at the exterior in the presence of PEX.

    Who's right? How should this be done?

    Thanks,

    Aaron

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    On the flip side of that I was talking to a project superintendent in the last week or so and he was concerned due to the number of times the city wanted to see the hydro-tub bonding.

    He counted 4 separate inspections that he had experienced where the H-T bonding was part of the inspection. He was wondering just how many times they had to see the "same bonding"??

    Now ... PEX was not involved in this property, but I've also seen the #8 run to the ground rod as well.

    Stating as 'not required ... due to PEX' is bull stuffing from my understanding and view.


  3. #3
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Kienitz View Post
    On the flip side of that I was talking to a project superintendent in the last week or so and he was concerned due to the number of times the city wanted to see the hydro-tub bonding.

    He counted 4 separate inspections that he had experienced where the H-T bonding was part of the inspection. He was wondering just how many times they had to see the "same bonding"??

    Now ... PEX was not involved in this property, but I've also seen the #8 run to the ground rod as well.

    Stating as 'not required ... due to PEX' is bull stuffing from my understanding and view.
    Nolan:

    I think so too. Additionally, NEC 110.3(B) is pretty specific in saying that "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling".

    Any other opinions out there? I know this subject must've been broached before, but I could not find a reference to it in the archives. So, forgive me if I am repeating something recently discussed.

    Surely JP and JM cannot remain silent on this for long. . .

    Aaron


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    2003 IRC
    2420.4 Manufacturer's instructions. The product shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.

    Section E3808 Grounding
    E3808.1 Metal enclosures. Metal enclosures of conductors, devices and equipment shall be grounded.

    E3802.2Equipment...
    2. Where located in a wet or damp location and not isolated...

    E3808.3 Specific equipment fastened in place or connected by permanent wiring methods.
    Exposed non-current-carrying metal parts of the following equipment and enclosures shall be grounded:
    1. Luminaires...
    2. Motor-operated water pumps...

    I have seen flexible cord connected pumps that are not metal, that do not have a separate grounding lug, but are grounded through the corded connection, but if I see a grounding lug on a pump casing, it needs a #8 conductor back to the equipment ground. I take it that if the manufacturer provides a grounding lug, it is supposed to be used.

    But then, I get to see very few pumps since they almost never provide an access panel that you can open without damage to the finishes. I understand this is changed to provide ready access in the newest codes. I am looking forward to the changes.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  5. #5
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Jim:

    I make them remove the skirts so I can inspect them.

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    This is the requirements for hydromassage tub bonding:

    All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contract with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

    CPVC is not a "metal piping system" and there are likely 'no' "grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water" ... which means ... no bonding under those conditions.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is the requirements for hydromassage tub bonding:

    All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contract with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

    CPVC is not a "metal piping system" and there are likely 'no' "grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water" ... which means ... no bonding under those conditions.
    Jerry:

    This was PEX and not CVPC. Do you mean even if the installation instructions ex;licitly say to run the #8 jumper back to the panel?

    Aaron


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    I had a nice, long, response, but, just as I clicked 'submit' (while I was also running my anti-virus live update with my mouse set to automatically go to the default button) my live update finished and came up with the screen asking if I wanted to restart my computer now or wait, and, of course, 'restart now' was the default, so when I clicked 'submit' I actually clicked 'restart my computer' ... AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH

    Anyway, the short of my long response is ...

    All manufacturer's installation instructions I've seen state something to the effect of 'install per these installation instructions or in accordance with locally adopted codes'.

    Thus, if you have no locally adopted code, you install them according to the installation instructions.

    BUT, if you have locally adopted codes, you install them according to the code. *IF* the code is silent on an issue included in the installation instructions, the installation instructions apply.

    If code addresses bonding, and it does, you bond it in accordance with the code. If the code does not address support for the tub, and they do not, you support it in accordance with the installation instructions.

    It also depends on if the installation instructions say "and", "or", or "and/or" the installation instructions and/or the code.

    That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Smile Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I had a nice, long, response, but, just as I clicked 'submit' (while I was also running my anti-virus live update with my mouse set to automatically go to the default button) my live update finished and came up with the screen asking if I wanted to restart my computer now or wait, and, of course, 'restart now' was the default, so when I clicked 'submit' I actually clicked 'restart my computer' ... AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH

    Anyway, the short of my long response is ...

    All manufacturer's installation instructions I've seen state something to the effect of 'install per these installation instructions or in accordance with locally adopted codes'.

    Thus, if you have no locally adopted code, you install them according to the installation instructions.

    BUT, if you have locally adopted codes, you install them according to the code. *IF* the code is silent on an issue included in the installation instructions, the installation instructions apply.

    If code addresses bonding, and it does, you bond it in accordance with the code. If the code does not address support for the tub, and they do not, you support it in accordance with the installation instructions.

    It also depends on if the installation instructions say "and", "or", or "and/or" the installation instructions and/or the code.

    That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.
    Jerry:

    Thanks, that makes sense.

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Aaron,

    My last sentence was key "That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.", but you did not answer it.

    That answer addresses the code requirements for bonding, which may be the same as the installation instructions ... ?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    My last sentence was key "That said, are you referring to a "hydromassage tub" or a "spa"? A "spa" is basically bonded the same as a swimming pool, a "hydromassage tub" is not.", but you did not answer it.

    That answer addresses the code requirements for bonding, which may be the same as the installation instructions ... ?
    Jerry:

    Sorry, I meant to say hydro-massage tub. In a master bathroom. No spa.

    Thanks,

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    We all need to understand and know the difference between bonding and grounding, Yes they are not the same.

    PEX is plastic. CPVC is plastic. PVC is plastic. They do not conduct electricity so bonding would not do much of anything.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    We all need to understand and know the difference between bonding and grounding, Yes they are not the same.

    PEX is plastic. CPVC is plastic. PVC is plastic. They do not conduct electricity so bonding would not do much of anything.
    Scott:

    I do understand the difference between bonding and grounding (mostly); the differences between PVC, CPV and PEX as well (certainly not a the molecular level or anything). My concern here was that the manufacturer's instructions explicitly state that the bonding jumper is to be run from the bonding lug all the way back to the main panel. There are so many code references supporting strict adherence to those instructions, I assumed that they must be followed.

    Peck says I'm wrong, and he may be right. What's your take on this?

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Scott:

    I do understand the difference between bonding and grounding (mostly); the differences between PVC, CPV and PEX as well (certainly not a the molecular level or anything). My concern here was that the manufacturer's instructions explicitly state that the bonding jumper is to be run from the bonding lug all the way back to the main panel. There are so many code references supporting strict adherence to those instructions, I assumed that they must be followed.

    Peck says I'm wrong, and he may be right. What's your take on this?

    Aaron
    If you found the instructions that state that a bonding wire must be run back to the panel then that is all that is needed. Manufacturers requirements trump codes. Many of the newer motors do not have the bonding screw.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    I think we have pretty well covered the code issue on this, but I have a
    personal take on this, just from common sense, IMHO.

    If you have bonded metal water supply pipes, I would see LESS of a
    danger than if you had the same pump setup with plastic lines.

    I can't see reducing the call for bonding a pump connected to plastic.

    At least with bonded metal pipes, you have an alternate path if the pump
    ground fails, not so with plastic.

    If you have a plastic pump housing with nothing to bond, then you can't
    bond it anyway. Those systems typically have a double insulated motor
    with a grounding wire from what I see.

    Question #1- Can you conceal a cord and plug connection behind an access panel (not READILY accessible)? (of course we would never know if we can't pull the panel, so it is mostly academic)

    Question #2- Has anyone else heard of the change in the newer codes requiring READY access to hydro therapy tubs?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Manufacturers requirements trump codes.
    Not always.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    If you have bonded metal water supply pipes, I would see LESS of a danger than if you had the same pump setup with plastic lines.
    Huh?

    Plastic pipes do not carry current, they are non-conductive. There is nothing to bond to, and no need to bond to nothing (nothing to bond to).

    I can't see reducing the call for bonding a pump connected to plastic.
    Huh? See above.

    At least with bonded metal pipes, you have an alternate path if the pump ground fails, not so with plastic.
    "Bonding" *IS NOT* to provide "an alternate path" for ground current. "Bonding" is simply to tie all associated metallic parts which are in contact with the water together. Being as (with plastic pipes) there *is only one* metallic part (the pump), there is nothing to bond together.

    If you have a plastic pump housing with nothing to bond, then you can't bond it anyway. Those systems typically have a double insulated motor with a grounding wire from what I see.
    Well, at least you got that one.

    Question #1- Can you conceal a cord and plug connection behind an access panel (not READILY accessible)? (of course we would never know if we can't pull the panel, so it is mostly academic)
    Cords and plugs are not allowed to be where concealed, which is *just one* of the reasons that panel as to be accessible without damaging the building structure or building finish. There is no requirement that it be "readily accessible", a term which is defined in the code.

    Question #2- Has anyone else heard of the change in the newer codes requiring READY access to hydro therapy tubs?
    Not in the 2005, I should be getting my 2008 soon (I hope - it's been on order awaiting publication of the 2008 NEC).

    It's always just been 'accessible without damaging the building structure or building finish'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    If you have bonded metal water supply pipes, I would see LESS of a
    danger than if you had the same pump setup with plastic lines.

    I can't see reducing the call for bonding a pump connected to plastic.
    Refering back to the original question from Aaron:

    I have seen contractors run the 8awg bonding jumper to a ground rod at the exterior in the presence of PEX.
    Metal pump housing should be bonded to the rest of the house system, right or wrong?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Metal pump housing should be bonded to the rest of the house system, right or wrong?
    Wrong.

    It is "GROUNDED" back to the house "grounding" system through its equipment ground conductor.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not always.
    Well I thought that is what the ICC says in the first few pages of their NRC.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Well I thought that is what the ICC says in the first few pages of their NRC.
    What does the Nuclear Regulatory Commission have to do with this?

    "NRC" - what are you referring to? You got me there.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Please comment on R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
    IRC 2003
    Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of th listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer's instructions shall apply.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    - R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
    The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference. Where differences occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.

    - - Exception:
    Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s instructions shall apply.

    What part of the code "would violate" the conditions of the listing?



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    I am asking.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Gentlemen,

    Maybe this attachment would help.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Jim,

    I knew we would eventually get down this path when Aaron posted:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    My concern here was that the manufacturer's instructions explicitly state that the bonding jumper is to be run from the bonding lug all the way back to the main panel.
    That's because the manufacturer *would not* state the above. For a "spa" they may state that a "separate *grounding* conductor" be run from the main panel to the spa disconnect, but that's not a "bonding jumper". I say "may" because even that is unlikely.

    For a hydromassage tub, that would not happen, and, being as Aaron stated it was "plumbed with PEX", I knew it was not a "Hydro-therapy" spa, but a hydromassage tub as "Hydro-therapy" would be used to refer to a pool tub used for such therapy, which fall under 680 Part VI. Pools and Tubs for Therapeutic Use.

    Anyway, I knew it would get complicated as the initiating statement would not be a probability, leading to speculation on all that followed - and it has. But, speculation does lead to learning things for all of us.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Billy,

    You noticed, I presume, that was referring to changes in the 1999 NEC, it was from 2000.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Mr. Peck,

    You got me thinking and looking. For me thats a good thing as I have many things to learn.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Jerry, in general, not just on this issue we have been hashing out, what in your opinion is the hierarchy in authority in the code vs manufacturer arena? I know in the IRC it states that the specific code has precedence over the general and I think from what I have read that when there is a conflict between the code and the manufacturer's instructions of a listed component that the code bows to the manufacturer's instructions.

    Give you primer on this again if you would.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Jim L.,

    If I may interject as I have some background on the Manufacturing side. They hold the
    liability of their products and go through testing in all aspects of operation. As I was involved in Packaging,Shipping and Handling side I can attest to the complexities of that
    (wouldn't think much too it side) as a structural designer. Compression.Shake,Impact
    lift capacity, Drop,(Hump a Rail car test when a train picks up a stationary car in a line of
    cars the first few cars will bow from impact enough to damage it contents if not allowed for
    ect.ect.ect,

    The real engineering and Governmental nightmares was in Product Development.
    Our little over site and reporting was only to DOT and OSHA.

    PS. Thats Federal Court when you make a boo boo and sometimes they want to keep You.

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 09-18-2007 at 10:17 PM. Reason: added word of
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not always.
    Support that statement, please.

    Aaron


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    I knew we would eventually get down this path when Aaron posted:


    That's because the manufacturer *would not* state the above. For a "spa" they may state that a "separate *grounding* conductor" be run from the main panel to the spa disconnect, but that's not a "bonding jumper". I say "may" because even that is unlikely.

    For a hydromassage tub, that would not happen, and, being as Aaron stated it was "plumbed with PEX", I knew it was not a "Hydro-therapy" spa, but a hydromassage tub as "Hydro-therapy" would be used to refer to a pool tub used for such therapy, which fall under 680 Part VI. Pools and Tubs for Therapeutic Use.

    Anyway, I knew it would get complicated as the initiating statement would not be a probability, leading to speculation on all that followed - and it has. But, speculation does lead to learning things for all of us.
    Jerry:

    "Would not happen. . .", "would not be a probability . . ."? Perhaps not . . .

    http://www.homelivingsolutions.com/p...on-9-19-05.pdf

    R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.

    The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference. Where differences occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.
    Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer's instructions shall apply.

    Webster’s defines “violate” thusly: “1. BREAK, DISREGARD (~the law).

    and “disregard”: “to pay no attention to : 1. treat as unworthy of regard or notice syn see neglect.

    and “neglect”: 1. to give little attention or respect to.

    R202 Definitions.

    LISTED AND LISTING. Terms referring to equipment that is shown in a list published by an approved testing agency qualified and equipped for experimental testing and maintaining an adequate periodic inspection of current productions and whose listing states that the equipment complies with nationally recognized standards when installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.

    NEC 110.3(B) Installation and Use.

    Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

    E3303.3 Listing and labeling.

    Electrical materials, components, devices, fixtures and equipment shall be listed for the application, shall bear the label of an approved agency and shall be installed, and used, or both, in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.

    Any comments?

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Jerry:

    "Would not happen. . .", "would not be a probability . . ."? Perhaps not . . .

    http://www.homelivingsolutions.com/p...on-9-19-05.pdf
    Okay, you got me there, I *should have* said "Would not happen. . .", "would not be a probability . . ."? with the addition of "not if the manufacturer KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE.

    Obviously, that manufacturer does not. "4. Connect a #8 bare copper BONDING wire from the pump, heater and control box ... " (Jerry's note: THAT is "bonding". The next part is where it goes wrong, the next part is "grounding", *not "bonding") " ... then to the cold water plumbing or other suitable ground. Grounding is required."

    "Grounding" *is required*, absolutely.

    "Bonding", because they called for it and stated what to bond, *is required* also.

    However, you do not "ground" a "bond". There are two things which they could have done differently: a) referred to the "bonding wire" as a "ground bond jumper" (but they did not), or, b) they could have separated the two and "bonded" the parts listed to each other, then "grounded" the pump. They could have done it like this:
    "4. Connect a #8 bare copper BONDING wire from the pump, heater and control box then to the cold water plumbing. (Jerry's note: This would have "bonded" all those together.) Grounding is required."

    Any comments?
    Yep.

    Unless as the code says NOT TO DO something the instructions say to do, the code does not violate the instructions.

    In this specific case, the code says to bond, and the code says to ground; but the instructions say to ground the bond!!!!!!!

    This is one of those cases where the following "should" happen:
    - 110.2 Approval.
    - - The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.

    - Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

    And the AHJ says 'Not in my jurisdiction. That is NOT APPROVED. You need to do the following.'
    - 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
    - - (A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:
    - - - (1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code
    - - - - FPN: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.
    - - - (2) Mechanical strength and durability, including, for parts designed to enclose and protect other equipment, the adequacy of the protection thus provided
    - - - (3) Wire-bending and connection space
    - - - (4) Electrical insulation
    - - - (5) Heating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service
    - - - (6) Arcing effects
    - - - (7) Classification by type, size, voltage, current capacity, and specific use
    - - - (8) Other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    So, are most of us in agreement that the manufacturers requirements trump the codes?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  35. #35
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    (to Scott Absolutely. The manufacturer's engineers have a UL approval for their design. If something in the code is *other than* the requirements of the manufacturers insturctions, then the manufacturer's instructions take precedence.

    The city/code official cannot circumvent a UL listed approval *UNLESS* the code is a more stringent requirement and provides a safer means of protecting the public. However, the AHJ cannot base his ruling on what he thinks, or wants. The local code department has to have written/ established and documented (for the public) any code that would ultimately circumvent the requirements of the manufacturer's insturctions.

    Again, this would only be in the case of where the manufacturers were less stringent.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Ok, at the risk of showing my ignorance, does a #8 bonding wire from a pump or whatever become a grounding wire if it is attached to the equipment grounding electrode at the service panel? I under stand that bonding is the connection of components such as pool pumps, etc. and that grounding is accomplished through the equipment ground on that circuit, but the change in terms is a little fuzzy if there is a bonding wire that connects components that later extends to the service.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  38. #38
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Hmm, how does one upload a file on this beast?

    Aaron


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    I can't help you on that. Sometimes web addresses convert when pasted into the body of the text. I know Brian has instructions somewhere around here.
    Is the page still available from your browser at their web site?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  40. #40
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I can't help you on that. Sometimes web addresses convert when pasted into the body of the text. I know Brian has instructions somewhere around here.
    Is the page still available from your browser at their web site?
    Try this:

    http://www.aaronsinspections.com/dig...on-9-19-05.pdf

    If the forum f**cks this one up, then go to my website at Dallas Home Inspections Dallas Texas Home Inspections Dallas TX Home Inspections, go to the bottom of any of the pages and click on free downloads, then find the Hydro-massage Tub Bonding link.

    Back to work for me . . .

    Aaron


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding


    4. Connect a # 8 bare copper bonding wire from the pump motor, heater and control box then to the cold water
    plumbing or other suitable ground. Grounding is required.
    It worked from your last link.


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Okay, maybe you want an IRC reference instead of an NEC reference?

    E3303.1 Approval.
    Electrical materials, components and equipment shall be approved.


    APPROVED.
    Acceptable to the building official.

    If the Building Official, through their representative, the Electrical Inspector, deems it (whatever) *not to be in accordance with the code* (IRC, NEC, etc.), then, through the Building Official, the equipment and / or its installation may be *not approved*, in which case it does not matter what the installation instructions say - it is not allowed to be installed, because ...

    ... *it is "required" to be "approved".*

    If there is resistance on the side with the opposite view of the Building Official, they have the right to appeal to a "Board of Appeals".



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Okay, maybe you want an IRC reference instead of an NEC reference?


    E3303.1 Approval.
    Electrical materials, components and equipment shall be approved.

    APPROVED.


    Acceptable to the building official.

    If the Building Official, through their representative, the Electrical Inspector, deems it (whatever) *not to be in accordance with the code* (IRC, NEC, etc.), then, through the Building Official, the equipment and / or its installation may be *not approved*, in which case it does not matter what the installation instructions say - it is not allowed to be installed, because ...

    ... *it is "required" to be "approved".*

    If there is resistance on the side with the opposite view of the Building Official, they have the right to appeal to a "Board of Appeals".


    Jerry:

    Though I can appreciate, due to your line of work, the fervor with which you continue to try and prop up your contention that the AHJ is the end-all, I still feel that the evidence is not in your corner. We'll still have to agree to disagree.

    I have personally attended and sent clients to the board of appeals on many occasions. Here regular citizens with a modicum of common sense (well, usually) decide what the right thing to do is. This keeps the AHJs in their nicely in their place.

    If the board doesn't pan out, because of the AHJ having stacked the board with his minions, the District Court also works really well - though at a much higher cost to everyone . . .

    Aaron



  44. #44
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    your contention that the AHJ is the end-all,
    I don't contend that the AHJ is the end all, in fact, if you've followed very many of my posts at all, I contend that the AHJ exceeds their authority often, and that they are not allowed to do so.

    That said, there ARE time when the AHJ *DOES* have that right and authority, and the above posts show one of them.

    *I* *ALSO* pointed out that the AHJ does not have final say if you dislike what they say - in fact, it was in the post just above yours, which may, or may not have read, so here it is AGAIN:

    I said: "If there is resistance on the side with the opposite view of the Building Official, they have the right to appeal to a "Board of Appeals".

    See? While the AHJ *DOES* (in this case) have that right to make that determination, you (the citizen) has the right to appeal.

    I have no idea where you get some of your ideas about what I think from, certainly not from reading what I post. I think they are your ideas which 'you think I should have', so you apply them, without really paying attention to find out what I think.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  45. #45
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I don't contend that the AHJ is the end all, in fact, if you've followed very many of my posts at all, I contend that the AHJ exceeds their authority often, and that they are not allowed to do so.

    That said, there ARE time when the AHJ *DOES* have that right and authority, and the above posts show one of them.

    *I* *ALSO* pointed out that the AHJ does not have final say if you dislike what they say - in fact, it was in the post just above yours, which may, or may not have read, so here it is AGAIN:

    I said: "If there is resistance on the side with the opposite view of the Building Official, they have the right to appeal to a "Board of Appeals".

    See? While the AHJ *DOES* (in this case) have that right to make that determination, you (the citizen) has the right to appeal.

    I have no idea where you get some of your ideas about what I think from, certainly not from reading what I post. I think they are your ideas which 'you think I should have', so you apply them, without really paying attention to find out what I think.
    Whatever . . .

    Aaron


  46. #46
    Jake Guerrero's Avatar
    Jake Guerrero Guest

    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Ok, at the risk of showing my ignorance, does a #8 bonding wire from a pump or whatever become a grounding wire if it is attached to the equipment grounding electrode at the service panel? I under stand that bonding is the connection of components such as pool pumps, etc. and that grounding is accomplished through the equipment ground on that circuit, but the change in terms is a little fuzzy if there is a bonding wire that connects components that later extends to the service.
    It's too bad this thread ended without any input on Jim's question. It doesn't look like it got answered.

    Scenario: You looked at the main distribution panel, and you could clearly see the grounded terminal is connected to a proper sized bare copper wire, which is connected to a ground rod between your feet. And for the sake of simplicity, let's say a #8 bare copper wire runs from this terminal to the copper (for the sake of simplicity) supply piping on the hot water heater next to you (for the sake of simplicity).

    Now let's also assume all other BONDING jumpers that would be required in areas of the piping where needed are installed.

    You are looking at the hydro pump's motor, and you see a #8 bare copper ground wire connected to the copper supply piping and to the 'bonding or grounding' screw on the pump motor or housing.

    Given this scenario with the hydro-therapy tub manufacturer's instructions:

    4. Connect a # 8 bare copper bonding wire from the pump motor, heater and control box then to the cold water
    plumbing or other suitable ground. Grounding is required.

    The pump motor would now be bonded. Would the pump motor be grounded?


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Guerrero View Post
    The pump motor would now be bonded. Would the pump motor be grounded?
    Okay, I'll bite ... Yes - *IF* there is an equipment ground run with the circuit conductors *as is required*, and, *IF* that equipment ground is actually connected properly.

    Two entirely different questions - bonding and grounding.

    (P.S., I know what you are asking, but the answer you are looking for is not correct.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  48. #48
    Jake Guerrero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Okay, I'll bite ... Yes - *IF* there is an equipment ground run with the circuit conductors *as is required*, and, *IF* that equipment ground is actually connected properly.
    I'm following you there, let's assume the motor was manufactured with a corded plug, and we have that connected to a GFCI receptacle.

    Two entirely different questions - bonding and grounding.
    Isn't the end result of bonding, grounding? After we've bonded equipment, appliances, etc., isn't the idea to have these BONDED items, grounded in some fashion?

    Or is that not the idea, and I've got it wrong?


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Hydro-therapy Equipment Bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Guerrero View Post
    Isn't the end result of bonding, grounding? After we've bonded equipment, appliances, etc., isn't the idea to have these BONDED items, grounded in some fashion?
    No. That's where I thought you were going.

    The idea of 'bonding' around spas, swimming pools, hydromassage tubs, and the like is to 'bond' everything together and make it all into an equipotential plane if it becomes energized, i.e., if the water becomes energized, what you are touching (the spout or faucets, etc.) are also energized. When that happens, there is no shock, no electrocution, and no drowning.

    Yes, though, the water pipes are 'bonded back to ground', however, if the metal water piping system is separated by a PVC repair, while that affects the 'bonding to ground', it does not affect the 'bonding of the equipotential plane' aspect.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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