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  1. #66

    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    If you and Jeff would look at what the opener circuitry is actually monitoring you might recognize the intent of the adjustments and tests.

    The motor control only knows that if the door is told to close: 1) turn the shaft in the direction of closed. 2) reverse if the motor current exceeds a set level or optical sensor is blocked. 3) stop and turn off all sensing when the travel limit is met.

    If it stops sensing at say 4" and a 4" neck is under the door it will not reverse no matter how strong your rescuers are but it will not crush your neck because it stopped at 4". If you have a 5" or 6" neck the door will reverse but not until it reaches the set level of resistance, which could be hundreds of pounds, that could hurt!
    Exactly, and why I have said what I have. I would just add that if the force setting is also a critical function of the reversing mechanism and that many openers reverse mechanism does not operate properly if the door balance or force adjustment is not proper. Even the stop function will not work when the door travel is in the upward motion and meets resistance on some models.

    OREP Home Inspector E&O Insurance 2
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  2. #67
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Just encase:FWIW;

    For those that may not know why the measurement at the floor is 1 inch, it is because that doors have seals that are allowed to compress and also to allow a margin for the door movement so that it will not hit the floor and crush the door if the adjustment gets off a little. So there is a 0 to < 1" range adjustment to work with during installation of door and it's travel.

    Which is also why when the operator is installed the installer will block its movement to check the sensitivity of the reversal function. Why, if the installer did not check the sensitivity and the sensitivity was set to low(greater force, less sensitive) and the door travel was to great the motor would try to drive the door into the floor before it would reverse. Which would damage the door. (((except for those newer operators that do not have a sensitivity adjustment which install a little differently))


    Not uncommon to adjust the sensitivity to very sensitive the first time the door is allowed to travel and contact the floor. Then then sensitivity and travel are tweaked so that the seal will compress without causing the door to reverse at < 1", but the sensitivity can be set so that if enough resistance is met the door will reverse at < 1". At > 1" it reverses.


  3. #68
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Vern,

    The part you are missing is that when a garage door properly reverses on contact with ... the 2x4 ... there is no excess pressure, the door would also reverse on contact with ... another object. You seem to be still on the 'crush the 2x4 before it reverses' kick?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jeff and I beat dead horses to a pulp, until even the glue factories won't take them.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffGHooper View Post
    Just softens them up.
    Ahh ... now I understand ... all those years we were just "tenderizing" the meat so it could be put on the grill.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #69
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Vern,

    The part you are missing is that when a garage door properly reverses on contact with ... the 2x4 ... there is no excess pressure, the door would also reverse on contact with ... another object. You seem to be still on the 'crush the 2x4 before it reverses' kick?

    - - - Updated - - -





    Ahh ... now I understand ... all those years we were just "tenderizing" the meat so it could be put on the grill.
    Jerry,
    The part you refuse to understand is that the door will not reverse until it has reached the pressure set by the downward pressure adjustment, and that will be more than "on contact with", no matter how light the adjustment is set for. Without some form of determining pressure you or no one else can know what pressure was exerted on the 2X4 before the door reversed. It might look like it reversed on contact, but I can assure you it exerted pressure.

    By the way, you have not told us how you were going to protect Granny?

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  5. #70
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry,
    The part you refuse to understand is that the door will not reverse until it has reached the pressure set by the downward pressure adjustment, and that will be more than "on contact with", no matter how light the adjustment is set for. Without some form of determining pressure you or no one else can know what pressure was exerted on the 2X4 before the door reversed. It might look like it reversed on contact, but I can assure you it exerted pressure.

    By the way, you have not told us how you were going to protect Granny?
    Vern,

    Quite to the contrary, I do understand that, and your post above confirms, once again, that you do not understand that when a garage door reverses on contact with that 2x4 ... that the pressure is of no concern because, and I have said "obviously" before yet it is apparently not "obvious" to you ... because, obviously, if the door reverses on contact with the 2x4 - the pressures HAVE TO BE OKAY.

    Not sure what gets in your way of understanding that ... other than your insistence that pressure is apparently "king" and must be checked. Pressure does not have to be checked - when the door properly reverses on contact with THE PRESSURE OBVIOUSLY IS OKAY ... very obviously okay ... otherwise the door would not properly reverse on contact with the 2x4.

    Thus the proper reversing on contact with the 2x4 is the critical factor - has I have said before, all the other factors must be right, otherwise the door would not reverse on contact with.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #71
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Vern,

    Quite to the contrary, I do understand that, and your post above confirms, once again, that you do not understand that when a garage door reverses on contact with that 2x4 ... that the pressure is of no concern because, and I have said "obviously" before yet it is apparently not "obvious" to you ... because, obviously, if the door reverses on contact with the 2x4 - the pressures HAVE TO BE OKAY.

    Not sure what gets in your way of understanding that ... other than your insistence that pressure is apparently "king" and must be checked. Pressure does not have to be checked - when the door properly reverses on contact with THE PRESSURE OBVIOUSLY IS OKAY ... very obviously okay ... otherwise the door would not properly reverse on contact with the 2x4.

    Thus the proper reversing on contact with the 2x4 is the critical factor - has I have said before, all the other factors must be right, otherwise the door would not reverse on contact with.
    The pressures do not have to be OK. A flimsy door and or drive can reach the travel limit with relatively low pressure and fail the test. A solid door and drive can exert a great deal of pressure without reaching the travel limit and pass the test.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  7. #72
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Vern,

    Quite to the contrary, I do understand that, and your post above confirms, once again, that you do not understand that when a garage door reverses on contact with that 2x4 ... that the pressure is of no concern because, and I have said "obviously" before yet it is apparently not "obvious" to you ... because, obviously, if the door reverses on contact with the 2x4 - the pressures HAVE TO BE OKAY.

    Not sure what gets in your way of understanding that ... other than your insistence that pressure is apparently "king" and must be checked. Pressure does not have to be checked - when the door properly reverses on contact with THE PRESSURE OBVIOUSLY IS OKAY ... very obviously okay ... otherwise the door would not properly reverse on contact with the 2x4.

    Thus the proper reversing on contact with the 2x4 is the critical factor - has I have said before, all the other factors must be right, otherwise the door would not reverse on contact with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The pressures do not have to be OK. A flimsy door and or drive can reach the travel limit with relatively low pressure and fail the test. A solid door and drive can exert a great deal of pressure without reaching the travel limit and pass the test.
    Jerry,
    You have been on a "on contact" meaning little to almost no pressure and in the past trying to say that "on contact " should be considered/defined as instantaneous reversal.

    Now you say "that the pressure is of no concern because". Which is correct as far as the Underwriters Lab is concerned for meeting a solid object at 1" or using a 2x4 on the flat. UL and CPSC look to 2 seconds from contact to actual reversal for operator determined reversal. Being different than "Edge Sensor" systems which have pressure requirements and not time requirement for reversal.

    Glad you are coming around.

    Jerry,what you are bypassing in your view of reversal testing and what Vern and I are pointing out is that you can obtain an idea if there will be a potential problem with testing the door at the floor using a 2x4 before you actually subject the door to the final test. If the door meeting an obstruction/resistance to move, such as being held by your had as it is lowering (a soft resistance), exerts significant force that you can not cause reversal then there is a possibility that the door may be damaged when it makes contact with the "solid object" at the floor. The sensitivity on most of the older doors is adjustable and can fall out of adjustment over time or possibly was not adjusted correctly from the original installation of the operator.

    Vern is incorporating some of the original installation process into the HI testing for reversal as stated in the o"owners manual" as required by the CPSC. Why,,,, so as not to damage the door needlessly.

    Is it mandatory to check the door prior to meeting the 2x4 on the floor?..NO. Is it a good practice?.. YES. Should everyone be doing it? YES. Should everyone performing a garage door inspection be knowledge and have practical experience with the installation processes involved with a garage door and an opener (operator); MOST assuredly YES! Can someone be hurt if they do things wrong?...YES. That is why it most important to know what you are doing before you mess with the door in the first place. Any idiot can put a 2x4 on the floor and hit the motion switch and stand (way) back and see what happens. It is the knowledgeable/experienced person that can determine if there is potential issues before there is a problem and act accordingly as a professional.


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Garry,

    What YOU are missing is that if the door passes, as you refer to it, the FINAL TEST ...

    ... why are you even wasting time and effort on trying to determine individual failure points when the key test IS This: DOES THE DOOR REVERSE ...

    ... Yes it reverses - then all the other tests (which, by the way, you are only doing some of, not all of anyway) are okay.

    ... No it does not reverse - then it does not matter what other test, or how many other tests, it passed.

    THAT is the part YOU are missing ... I'm not missing any of it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #74

    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Garry,


    ... why are you even wasting time and effort on trying to determine individual failure points when the key test IS This: DOES THE DOOR REVERSE ...

    ... Yes it reverses - then all the other tests (which, by the way, you are only doing some of, not all of anyway) are okay.


    Who says this is the "KEY" test?

    Just because it reversed DOES NOT MEAN all the other tests are okay. Not sure where you got that one. Not sure a single manufacturer would agree with that one.

    Hypothetical; The door reversed using a block test, the pressure was 10,000 lbs. Jerry says it reversed so it is ok? Jeff says, not okay, as 10,000 lbs crushed the person!

    The difference appears to be, Jerry is protecting blocks. People are much softer. Probably from us beating this dead horse.

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  10. #75
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffGHooper View Post
    Who says this is the "KEY" test?

    Just because it reversed DOES NOT MEAN all the other tests are okay. Not sure where you got that one. Not sure a single manufacturer would agree with that one.

    Hypothetical; The door reversed using a block test, the pressure was 10,000 lbs. Jerry says it reversed so it is ok? Jeff says, not okay, as 10,000 lbs crushed the person!

    The difference appears to be, Jerry is protecting blocks. People are much softer. Probably from us beating this dead horse.
    The difference is that Jerry is realizing and understanding, and that Jeff is not realizing and understanding, that if the door is being pushed with 10,000 pounds ... the door is not going to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4 ... "on contact with" means that the door does NOT attempt to crush the 2x4 before the door reverses.

    Thus, when that same door makes contact with ... a person or any object ... that "on contact with" is going to reverse the door ... and, when the door reverses "on contact with" the 2x4, a person, etc, then the door - OBVIOUSLY - does not have 10,000 pounds trying to crush anything.

    I'm going to leave you guys to discuss and decide why you choose to ONLY DO SELECTED tests instead of all of the tests, and then think that doing your selected tests actually tells you something useful.

    Me, I'm going to spend my time doing something more useful than trying to explain why 2 + 2 = 4 , and thus 4 / 2 = 2 , and that if you divide that 4 by the other 2, the answer will also = 2

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #76
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The difference is that Jerry is realizing and understanding, and that Jeff is not realizing and understanding, that if the door is being pushed with 10,000 pounds ... the door is not going to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4 ... "on contact with" means that the door does NOT attempt to crush the 2x4 before the door reverses.

    Thus, when that same door makes contact with ... a person or any object ... that "on contact with" is going to reverse the door ... and, when the door reverses "on contact with" the 2x4, a person, etc, then the door - OBVIOUSLY - does not have 10,000 pounds trying to crush anything.

    I'm going to leave you guys to discuss and decide why you choose to ONLY DO SELECTED tests instead of all of the tests, and then think that doing your selected tests actually tells you something useful.

    Me, I'm going to spend my time doing something more useful than trying to explain why 2 + 2 = 4 , and thus 4 / 2 = 2 , and that if you divide that 4 by the other 2, the answer will also = 2
    Jerry,
    Don't get so flustered just because your logic is as busted as you left poor Granny. By the way, we are not the only ones who see the value in testing the resistance. The NCHILB mandates that we do it in North Carolina!

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  12. #77

    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The difference is that Jerry is realizing and understanding, and that Jeff is not realizing and understanding, that if the door is being pushed with 10,000 pounds ... the door is not going to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4 ... "on contact with" means that the door does NOT attempt to crush the 2x4 before the door reverses.

    Thus, when that same door makes contact with ... a person or any object ... that "on contact with" is going to reverse the door ... and, when the door reverses "on contact with" the 2x4, a person, etc, then the door - OBVIOUSLY - does not have 10,000 pounds trying to crush anything.

    I'm going to leave you guys to discuss and decide why you choose to ONLY DO SELECTED tests instead of all of the tests, and then think that doing your selected tests actually tells you something useful.

    Me, I'm going to spend my time doing something more useful than trying to explain why 2 + 2 = 4 , and thus 4 / 2 = 2 , and that if you divide that 4 by the other 2, the answer will also = 2

    No, what Jerry is not getting is that it is the resistance that causes the door to reverse. Contact would require a contact point receptor. The reversing mechanism relies on resistance in the form of pressure, not contact, with the block. In fact, I can set the door limit switch pressure way up and get the door not to reverse on contact. Done it many times when I installed them, then backed them off.

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  13. #78
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ..... "on contact with" means that the door does NOT attempt to crush the 2x4 before the door reverses.

    Thus, when that same door makes contact with ... a person or any object ... that "on contact with" is going to reverse the door ... and, when the door reverses "on contact with" the 2x4, a person, etc, then the door - OBVIOUSLY - does not have 10,000 pounds trying to crush anything.

    .......
    Jerry's premise revolves around Jerry's concept/definition of "on contact". The problem is that Jerry has no way to offer the CSPC or UL definition of "on contact". So he has to create his own definition to apply to the Regs.

    What is the CPSC definition of "reversal on contact".


  14. #79
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    For those that like to rely on manufacture installation instructions as the guiding lite to testing and correct installations. ((( BOLD Mine))))

    Chamberlain

    HOW AND WHEN TO ADJUST THE FORCES
    http://www.chamberlain.com/CatalogRe...s/114A3165.pdf
    p 21. HOW AND WHEN TO ADJUST THE FORCES
    1. Test the DOWN (close) force
    Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway through DOWN (close) travel. The door should reverse. Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction. See Adjustment Step 3, page 22. If the door is hard to hold or doesn’t reverse, decrease the DOWN (close) force by turning the control counterclockwise. Make small adjustments until the door reverses normally. After each adjustment, run the opener through a complete cycle


    GENIE

    http://www.geniecompany.com/data/pro...manual_eng.pdf
    Non manual adjustment models Screw Drive
    p.11 Contact Reverse Test

    When the door contacts the board, it should stop and reverse direction within two

    seconds to the fully open position. Red LED lights on the powerhead
    will begin to § ash with the reversal of the door. Remove the 2" x 4" board
    after a successful contact reversal test.


  15. #80
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    Default Re: Garage Door Opener Support

    DASMA
    DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association
    Garage door openers manufactured after January 1, 1993, are required by federal law to have advanced safety features that comply with the latest UL (Underwriters Laboratories) 325 standards. Contact your manufacturer or installer for additional information.

    • Test the reversing feature every month.


    2. With the door fully open, place a 1-1/2" thick piece of wood (a 2" X 4" laid flat) on the floor in the center of the door


    • Force Setting Test
      Test the force setting of your garage door opener by holding the bottom of the door as it closes.
      If the door does not reverse readily, the force setting may be excessive and need adjusting.


    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

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