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  1. #1
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    Default $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Revisited a $7M new construction property I inspected 3 weeks ago where the client has discover the 'new' appliances are in fact not so new. For starters, they all appear absolutely new with an understanding that many builders bulk purchase and so the equipment may have been in storage for a few years. That being said, during the inspection, some units were unplugged (wine cooler), the freezer set to 60 degrees, etc., to which the range, exhaust fan and pizza oven responded.

    The client is a SMART and detailed software engineer who has started and sold companies that he himself built up to 1000 employees and $$$MMM in sales. So while documenting the serial numbers of all kitchen appliances, contacting their manufactures for warrantee info he learns....the two pizza ovens are, wait for it...17 years old. The refrigerator was received as a warranty item and was not to be re-sold, the freezer lacks a serial number which WOLF states suggests it must be stolen, the list goes on...to the tune of $75,000.

    The builder gets there's been a screw-up here

    Update to follow

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Look forward to your update - very interesting.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    I have found on occasion built-in appliances and fixtures being swapped out before closing. So I would record serial numbers and photos where possible to document such items.

    I have even found light fixtures and yes even toilet fixtures switched. It's amazing what some people will do.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    The agent texted me that the client ran one of the two dishwashers which started to smoke so they had to shut that down. My report mentions two reasons why I didn't test these...1) their air gaps were located below the counter (in effect venting a high loop...(brilliant!), 2) the two appliances were full with packaging materials.
    This is not the first time an appliance was associated with smoking issues at this home. During the 5 hour inspection the three of us conducted (me,client & the builder), I plugged in the barbeque power cord (first obtaining the builder's permission) after which the outlet box popped, crackled and smoke. The builder was startled, the client sighed and I said "You're welcome".

    More to follow.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Would have liked to see this as a video. Builder there with a straight face???


  6. #6
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Would have liked to see this as a video. Builder there with a straight face???
    Builder says 'Ah, shucks, those fireworks are usually an extra cost change order, but we included them for free on this house.'

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Morin View Post
    The agent texted me that the client ran one of the two dishwashers which started to smoke so they had to shut that down. My report mentions two reasons why I didn't test these...1) their air gaps were located below the counter (in effect venting a high loop...(brilliant!), 2) the two appliances were full with packaging materials
    .
    I'm not sure what you are saying about the dishwasher air gap. In many areas running the drain hose up to the underside of the countertop is standard practice.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    "Would have liked to see this as a video. Builder there with a straight face???"

    The builder was silent for about 5 seconds and stated something like 'I've never seen that...I'll call my foreman after we finish this inspection' or to that effect.

    "I'm not sure what you are saying about the dishwasher air gap. In many areas running the drain hose up to the underside of the countertop is standard practice".

    As described...the actual air gaps were below the countertops as there was no countertop holes for their proper mounting.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    That install is wacked. Kinda know what happened. They left it set up to be finished when a hole was created and it was just forgotten. Is through counter mandatory in that local or is high loop acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I'm not sure what you are saying about the dishwasher air gap. In many areas running the drain hose up to the underside of the countertop is standard practice.
    Add to that that some dishwashers have a high loop built into the design.
    An example is Kitchenaide : Model# KDTE104ESS
    http://www.searspartsdirect.com/mode...3/0130000.html

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    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 04-24-2017 at 04:27 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Is through counter mandatory in that local or is high loop acceptable?
    Installing the airgap under the counter is not acceptable, in any area (I know, you know that. Just clarifying).

    In my area, a high loop (either installed or a part of the appliance) is not acceptable. Must have an airgap, no matter what. The rationale is that the next dishwasher might not have a built-in high loop.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Morin View Post
    "Would have liked to see this as a video. Builder there with a straight face???"

    The builder was silent for about 5 seconds and stated something like 'I've never seen that...I'll call my foreman after we finish this inspection' or to that effect.

    "I'm not sure what you are saying about the dishwasher air gap. In many areas running the drain hose up to the underside of the countertop is standard practice".

    As described...the actual air gaps were below the countertops as there was no countertop holes for their proper mounting.
    I see what you mean. This photo shows how dishwasher drains are installed in my area. (This is is not the best example, but it is close to how they are done).

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    The Client has shared with me emails between them and the seller who is now immediately replacing the refrigerator, freezer and wine cooler (approximately $30,000 of equipment). Here's an interesting fact that has come to light...some of the remaining appliances like the various ovens, came from the builder's own home (likely after he upgraded his own appliances).

    There's still some dispute over the used wolf range hood. The unit is encased within a wood paneled enclosure where only the stainless steel underside is visible and contains the controls and filters. However, the internals were gutted and a rooftop fan installed two floors up to quite down the unit's operation (so really, it's no longer a Wolf product, but an on-site fabricated system). I have seen this set up a number of times but the question is did my client pay for a Wolf product verses a piece-meal system.

    Further details are pending such as the smoking dishwasher and if the outdoor oven is in fact rated to be outdoors.

    I may be checking for the presence of kitchen main appliance serial numbers in the future...


  13. #13
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    That install is wacked. Kinda know what happened. They left it set up to be finished when a hole was created and it was just forgotten. Is through counter mandatory in that local or is high loop acceptable?



    Add to that that some dishwashers have a high loop built into the design.
    An example is Kitchenaide : Model# KDTE104ESS
    KITCHENAID DISHWASHER Parts | Model KDTE104ESS2 | Sears PartsDirect
    Regardless of whether a dishwasher has an internal loop , code still requires ano airgap or loop under the countertop.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Regardless of whether a dishwasher has an internal loop , code still requires ano airgap or loop under the countertop.
    The IRC, for the discharge line, does not require an air gap - it does, however, require a high loop:
    - From P2717.2 Sink and dishwasher. "The dishwasher discharge pipe or tubing shall rise to the underside of the countertop and be fastened or otherwise held in that position before connecting to the head of the food-waster disposer or to a wye fitting in the sink tailpiece."

    Keep in mind that also limits the dishwasher connection to the two stated places: " ... head of the food-waster disposer or to a wye fitting in the sink tailpiece ... "

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Kinda knew that I would stir up something with the diagram.

    The contention may be that if the dishwasher design is unknown and there is a cabinet panel that obscures the built in loop making it difficult to verify the required high loop.

    The loop as shown in my previous post is fixed in place and is high and under the counter meeting the requirements. It can be attached to the required location though possibly needing an extension.

    Here is the rub. The original (built in) dishwasher high loop may have been altered or replaced (been there done that)., Which typically you can not see without pulling the dishwasher. So when the alteration was performed the new discharge tubing may have the high loop installed (moved) to the sink cabinet and becoming readily visible on inspection, or not.

    How it is reported will vary by the HI involved and their knowledge and desire to explain what they are seeing or not seeing as part of their GENERALIST'S VISUAL INSPECTION.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    The OP is from CA.
    California (or certain locales within CA) require an above rim level air gap.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Some of the more recent comments and information drifted over to codes in general, and as information in general, for "typical" installations guidance.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    I'm wondering if dishwashers are made that do not have a built in high loop? I know the last three I have installed did.
    Air gaps are not required in my part of TN.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    On a tangential note, air gaps are poorly made devices that simply make a giant mess when they inevitably fail.

    Dom.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    The OP is from CA.
    California (or certain locales within CA) require an above rim level air gap.
    Like real estate it is all about location, location, location to determine what is required. Most of us that are more frequent to the forum know that one local may not carry over to another. I usually try to preface things as to my location for those dropping in to read a thread may not realize that some things are etched in stone and are universal while others things can vary greatly when it comes to code requirements based on location even within a state, city to city and county to county.

    You are absolutely right in the typical air gap are cheaply made and will clog up.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    I usually try to preface things as to my location for those dropping in to read a thread may not realize that some things are etched in stone and are universal while others things can vary greatly when it comes to code requirements based on location even within a state, city to city and county to county.
    Which is why we should all show our location in the upper corner (picked up from what we entered in our settings) - should show city and state, especially in larger states.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    On a tangential note, air gaps are poorly made devices that simply make a giant mess when they inevitably fail.

    Dom.
    Amen. I had two this week that sprayed all over the place. Best place for an air gap in on the shelf at the hardware store - JMO.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    So the final word on this story is that the builder gave back $40,000 of the $75,000 asked and the agents chipped in the rest to prevent a lawsuit from the buyer.

    $17,500 out of the $140,000 commission paid to each agent...I've got to start selling real estate!


  24. #24
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Morin View Post
    So the final word on this story is that the builder gave back $40,000 of the $75,000 asked and the agents chipped in the rest to prevent a lawsuit from the buyer.

    $17,500 out of the $140,000 commission paid to each agent...I've got to start selling real estate!
    As long as that was a satisfactory ending for the buyer ...

    Jeeze ... you would settle for only a $122,500 commission ... where are your standards, man?

    (Buyer says to themself: That will fuel my boat for the weekend.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #25
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    Default Re: $7M new construction home...What is a 'new' appliance?

    Bwah! Obviously very low standards...I wonder if I even like myself.


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