Thread: Grounded and grounding difference?

Hey guys. Today, my electrician was rattling off some technical verbage on one of our jobs and i noticed he said grounded and grounding in the same sentence. I didnt want to look stupid in front of him so i thought i'd come in here to look stupid and ask, whats the difference between grounded and grounding?

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The grounded conductor is the neutral. The grounding wire is the ground....... Too tired for more of any explanation- hope this helps 'til someone smarter jumps on here.

roger that...

Marc,

To elaborate on Brandon's comment. The NEC refers to Non-grounded, grounded and grounding conductors. Non-grounded is what most of us refer to as "hot". The others are as Brandon wrote.

Ungrounded current carrying conductors are those that are the "hots" from the phases.

Grounded current carrying condutors are the white, neutral wires. They are grounded at the main disconnect. They are designed to carry current but the fact that they are grounded back at the main disconnect gives them that name.

Grounding wires are not designed to be current carrying conductors except for a fault/short circuit condition. These are the bare or green insulated wires. They are grounded at all metal enlcosures and devices whereas the neutrals (grounded, current carrying conductors) are only grounded at the main panel.

Does this help?

Yes, those are great answers. How come the some of the main panels I have seen have seperate buses and some do not. I know subs are to be seperated but whats the reason for the main to be seperated?

The main is not to be separated. There will be two buss bars but it should have a green colored "bonding screw" installed.

What if they are seperated but also bonded to the panel?

Often they appear to be separated, but there is a bar connecting them electrically. Sometimes the bar is covered in plastic, so it's not obvious.

Just to confuse everyone further if you are looking at equipment that is from Europe. They often use Yellow & Green as Grounding (Bare / Green in US) & Blue as Grounded (White & Grey In US) Oh yes in 277 volt systems the grounded (neutral / White) will be Grey.

Also keep in mind, when you find a GFCI (ground fault protection) whole circuit device located in the main panel, the neutral wire (white/grey) belonging to that circuit have to be conected on that specific device, never on the common bar.
Bernardo

Marc,

The best advice you will get it to "forget about main panels and sub panels", instead, think "service equipment" and "not service equipment" when talking about where then neutral is bonded to ground.

The neutral is only bonded to ground "at the service equipment". There may or may not be a "panel" as part of the "service equipment", and, whether or not there is a "panel" as part of it, it is still "service equipment".

Now, once you leave the "service equipment", all other "panels" are wired the same - the neutral is isolated from ground.

Originally Posted by Bernardo Golner

Also keep in mind, when you find a GFCI (ground fault protection) whole circuit device located in the main panel, the neutral wire (white/grey) belonging to that circuit have to be conected on that specific device, never on the common bar.
Bernardo

Not following you there.

The individual circuit conductors are attached to the GFCI breaker as follows:

The black/red/brown/etc. circuit conductor goes to the main breaker terminal.

The white circuit conductor goes to the other breaker terminal or to the white pigtail, which ever is present.

The white pig-tail conductor from the GFCI breaker goes to the common neutral bar.

That may have been what you were saying and I just did not follow you.

Jerry,
You got it right, I was referring to the neutral load side / or the circuit side of the GFCI, I found many times the pig tail not conected to the common bar and the neutral from the circuit in the neutral common bar, then the device is conected only on the hot wiring and working only as a breaker / surge /overload protection.
Bernardo

Bernardo - Welcome to the board!
It's often helpful to know where you're from. You can click on UserCP at the upper left and add your state.
Weston, Mass., by any chance?

John,
Thanks, the location looks pre populated from the system, is Weston in Florida, (west central Broward county) it is a City born as a master plan development founded in 1996 in the SW corner where I-75 runing S-N from Miami-Dade change direction to run E-W (Alligator Alley). Nothing on the north and west but the everglades.
Bernardo

Originally Posted by Bernardo Golner

the location looks pre populated from the system, is Weston in Florida,

Bernardo,

You can go the your User CP and enter your location as Weston, Florida, that would help.

I know where Weston is as I lived in Broward County for 20 years, moving up here from Pembroke Pines 2-1/2 years ago.

Most of my business was in the Palm Beach Gardens/Jupiter and Coral Gables areas, some in Palm Beach.

it is a City born as a master plan development founded in 1996

Founded by ARVIDA, the development company. ARVIDA got its name from the fact that it was a real estate investment trust (long before there was such a thing) and Arthur Vining Davis owned much of South Florida, owning excessively large tracts of land in Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties. The trust which owned the land was named after him, taking the first two letters of his first, middle and last name: ARthur VIning DAvis or AR VI DA, to make ARVIDA.

The reason that name was chosen, so I've been told from many sources unrelated to each other (adding a sense of truth to it) was that the section markers (he didn't own "lots", or "acres", he owned contiguous "sections") were marked with those letters, to represent section corners within his land holdings. Thus, each section corner marker not only gave its location, but included the letters ARVIDA - to let everyone know who owned the land.

Just an interesting factoid about how and why Weston started out as ARVIDA - all the land was part of (a small part of) his vast ARVIDA land holdings. His land holding at the time would more aptly be counted in 'square miles', truly one of those who could answer the question "How much land do you own?" with "As far as you can see in every direction."

Jerry,
You are like the british enciclopedy.....
What I know for sure is that the company (ARVIDA) vanished from "Weston" lands about 2003 being sure no homeowners or City run complaints about messes in urban planning and development....at that time no home was in real estate listings for more than 1 week ....
Bernardo

Originally Posted by Bernardo Golner

at that time no home was in real estate listings for more than 1 week ....

Bernardo,

Do you remember what they did with their last set of townhomes?

There were 143 units in various stages of construction, they had people sign a list of "interest". They have about 4,000 names on that list.

They held a large party, everyone still "interested" came, free hot dogs, sodas, etc., they began selecting names at random, that person would get their choice of units left, if they were present and still "interested".

Before the end of the day, as I recall it now, all 143 townhomes were sold. Not everyone got their first choice, but some people just wanted to live in Weston so bad that they would buy a townhouse even if it was not what they wanted. Others were mad because their names were never drawn.

Then ARVIDA was GONE. (After finishing those townhomes.)

Originally Posted by Bernardo Golner

...enciclopedy....

Wow.
Bernardo, you're going to fit in real well around here!

Yeah John,
I always feel motivated when there is a challenge ahead, this forum drops the experience and concerns of many people around in the business that I didn't have the chance to know or meet and I happy when somebody transfer some of its own knowledge or experience to me, most of the time, selfish people hide them, I personally appreciate the input of everyone.
Bernardo

Grounded means that your wife is pissed and your backside is in the dog house. Grounding is what she does when she comments kindly about spending to much time with your friends and you are about to be grounded.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Marc,

The best advice you will get it to "forget about main panels and sub panels", instead, think "service equipment" and "not service equipment" when talking about where then neutral is bonded to ground.

The neutral is only bonded to ground "at the service equipment". There may or may not be a "panel" as part of the "service equipment", and, whether or not there is a "panel" as part of it, it is still "service equipment".

Now, once you leave the "service equipment", all other "panels" are wired the same - the neutral is isolated from ground.

Oh man, that one lost me. You have a picture to illustrate what you are referring to? thanks Jerry

Marc,

Click on the first attached photo first and name what the items are.

The second attached photo gives the answers to what they are.

Marc,

After doing the above (see above post), post which lettered enclosures would have the neutral bonded to ground, and which would have the neutral isolated from ground.

Originally Posted by Marc M

Yes, those are great answers. How come the some of the main panels I have seen have seperate buses and some do not. I know subs are to be seperated but whats the reason for the main to be seperated?

If it is a true main panel, such as what comes with the meter as integral to the panel, the two bars are connected with another bar running typically across the top of the two bars, sometimes underneath arc barriers that will minimize any shorts to the ungrounded conductors. Where there is a meter, the landing for the grounded conductior and grounding wires is most often in the meter compartment, then bus fed to the common neutral/ground bar in the main panel distribution area.

Once away from this main panel, ground bars will bolt directly to the metal panel and neutral bars will have isolators, NO BONDING SCREW should be installed unless a panelboard is the main panel.

This causes ground faults to follow the ground wire all of the way back to the main panel versus along a neutral wire which may allow ground-fault current to go through a device.

You know where I see this messed up a lot (and a home inspector may never or rarely see it) is when a contractor is doing construction on a site with an exsisting main panel and they put temp power poles (large property) with a panel at another location. They will run a triplex service cable and "recreate" a main panel. This is a code violation, they should use 3-conductor with a ground.

Originally Posted by James Billings

If it is a true main panel, such as what comes with the meter as integral to the panel,

James,

As can be seen in the code, there is no "main panel" and not "subpanel", and, for those who insist on using those terms, there is no difference in their wiring.

There are only "panels", or, more specifically, "panelboards"

Once away from this main panel, ground bars will bolt directly to the metal panel and neutral bars will have isolators, NO BONDING SCREW should be installed unless a panelboard is the main panel.

No, that only occurs at "service equipment", not at panels.

Yes, it is true that some "panels" are part of "service equipment", however, the reason the neutral is bonded there is not because this is any kind of "panel", the neutral is ponded there *only because that is "service equipment" *.

All of that was the purpose of those drawings, to show that "panels" *HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHERE THE NEUTRAL IS BONDED TO GROUND*, and that ...

... bonding the neutral to ground *IS ONLY DONE AT "SERVICE EQUIPMENT" *.

Question: Where is the neutral bonded to ground?

Answer (by the way, there IS *only* ONE answer): At the "service equipment".

How about thinking of it as a math problem, which have only one answer too. Think of 2+2, that = 4. Always has, always will. Think of "service equipment" = "neutral bonded to ground", always has been, always will be.

Now, think of 2+2+2-1-1, that *ALSO* = 4, but only when all the parts are there, using just the +2-1-1 *does not* = 4. This is like having a "panel" as *part of* the "service equipment", the neutral *is also* bonded to ground there, but only when all the parts are there, using just "panel" *does not* = neutral bonded to ground.

It really is that simple: "service equipment" = neutral bonded to ground, every time, just like 2+2 = 4, every time.

Put something else into the equation and you have to start screwing around with it to make it come out to the same.

I repeat ...

"Service equipment" = "neutral bonded to ground", no where else ... now make that your mantra and repeat it over and over and over ...

[quote=Jerry Peck;63764]James,

As can be seen in the code, there is no "main panel" and not "subpanel", and, for those who insist on using those terms, there is no difference in their wiring.

Oh thank you. Oddly, though we may reference them as panels, there is switchgear, and service equipment, and MCCs, yes, I suppose it is laziness which has crept into my speech and perhaps too my ignorance has increased with age, which you have so politely pointed out. Somehwat odd for a litigation professional though, to imply that if a person uses incorrect terms for "panels" or service equipment that their wiring is all the same. But, I am not a litigation professional.

There are so many instances of the term panel being used for a myriad of electrical distribution types, even large utilities will reference panel boards as service equipment:
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...nts/065374.pdf

However, I will humbly ackowledge that the landing of the grounded conductor to ground is appropriately noted as taking place at the "service equipment". That said, remember we are all imperfect, put that in your mantra and repeat it over and over.

Originally Posted by James Billings

there is switchgear, and service equipment, and MCCs,

James,

Typically the term switchgear is used to refer to switchboards versus panelboards.

to imply that if a person uses incorrect terms for "panels" or service equipment that their wiring is all the same.

Seems odd that, when the thread is discussing where the neutral is to be grounded, and someone is referencing "service equipment" and not "panels", and is specifically stating such, that another would not then, in the next post(s) try to refer back to the "service equipment" as "main panels". Especially when using the terms "main panel" and "sub panel" are one of the primary causes of not understanding where the neutral is to be grounded ... at the "service equipment" ... and that using the term "service equipment" for that electrical equipment, which is not only correct, but is also the code identified electrical equipment where the neutral is bonded to ground, would be the way to continue the discussion.

There are so many instances of the term panel being used for a myriad of electrical distribution types, even large utilities will reference panel boards as service equipment:
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...nts/065374.pdf

However, in regards to the NEC, which does not cover utility company distribution lines and equipment ... in the NEC, which is under discussion, the term "service equipment" has a specific meaning, and definition:

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

the landing of the grounded conductor to ground is appropriately noted as taking place at the "service equipment".

No one is talking about being perfect, just in following the discussion and what was being discussed and why, one's input would be better understood if kept in the context of that discussion. Unless, of course, there was a drift current beginning, resulting in thread drift, which happens frequently here, where the thread started discussing one topic and weaves back and forth through several thread drifts, sometimes ending on the same topic as the first post. That said, if your post was thread drift, it was not apparent to me and, if that were the case, I would apologize for not recognizing it as "thread drift".

Your last post sounds as though you are much more knowledgeable than your post trying to promote bonding the neutral at the "main panel" made you sound.

Repeating what you said your last post above (which is correct):

the landing of the grounded conductor to ground is appropriately noted as taking place at the "service equipment".

Had you been a long time member of this forum (by the way, welcome to THE inspectors forum), you would know this question comes up frequently, and it is always because the person is trying to figure out the difference between "main panel" and "sub panel" and where the neutral is bonded to ground. There is no difference between a "main panel" and a "sub panel" (other than a "sub panel" belongs on a "submarine").

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,

Typically the term switchgear is used to refer to switchboards versus panelboards.

I actually know what the proper terminolgy is.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,
Seems odd that, when the thread is discussing where the neutral is to be grounded, and someone is referencing "service equipment" and not "panels", and is specifically stating such, that another would not then, in the next post(s) try to refer back to the "service equipment" as "main panels". Especially when using the terms "main panel" and "sub panel" are one of the primary causes of not understanding where the neutral is to be grounded ... at the "service equipment" ... and that using the term "service equipment" for that electrical equipment, which is not only correct, but is also the code identified electrical equipment where the neutral is bonded to ground, would be the way to continue the discussion.

This is because I never read through all of the posts, which probably answered the question perfectly well, I just jumped right in somewhere near the top. Somehow it did not appear as drift, but in actuallity it most likely was.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,
However, in regards to the NEC, which does not cover utility company distribution lines and equipment

How often have I been reminded of this?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,
... in the NEC, which is under discussion, the term "service equipment" has a specific meaning, and definition:

Yes, again, if I had taken the time to read through, I would have caught this.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,
No one is talking about being perfect, just in following the discussion and what was being discussed and why, one's input would be better understood if kept in the context of that discussion.

agreed

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,
Your last post sounds as though you are much more knowledgeable than your post trying to promote bonding the neutral at the "main panel" made you sound.

Being illiterate, new to the English language, and having a severe restriction on knowledge, I lack what may be implied, but thank you; this however, may be construed as drift.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

James,Had you been a long time member of this forum (by the way, welcome to THE inspectors forum), you would know this question comes up frequently, and it is always because the person is trying to figure out the difference between "main panel" and "sub panel" and where the neutral is bonded to ground. There is no difference between a "main panel" and a "sub panel" (other than a "sub panel" belongs on a "submarine").

This response (the complete response, not just the ending) from you was extremely well done and I promise to make every effort to use what I believe to be appropriate terminolgy (not just what I use day-to-day when speaking with others in the field) when making any future posts within this forum. Perhaps I may even look a another thread one day and surprise you.

Thanks for the welcome, have a great rest of the week. I am going back to my submarine.

Jerry
In the diagrams you provided, the service equipment was always the main disconnect.
Is there ever a time when the "Service equipment" is not also the "Main disconnect"?
If so, would you show an example?
If not why are there two terms?

Thanks

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

In the diagrams you provided, the service equipment was always the main disconnect.
Is there ever a time when the "Service equipment" is not also the "Main disconnect"?
If so, would you show an example?
If not why are there two terms?

Rick,

That is a more complex question than you probably imagine, however, here is my answer:

The service equipment *will always* have the main disconnect (also known as the service disconnect) located within it.

With one exception.

Additional disconnect(s) for fire pumps are allowed to be installed - make that required to be - at a remote location from the service equipment main service disconnects.

Now, to add a twist, the *overcurrent protection* for the service is required to be part of the service disconnects (main disconnects), or, is "shall be located immediately adjacent thereto".

In other words, you could have service equipment which contains a disconnecting means *without* overcurrent protection (no fuses and not a breaker), HOWEVER, the overcurrent protection would then be required to be located immediately adjacent thereto in another enclosure.

Most homes I inspect the main disconnect is the main and might I add the only panel. On occasion there is a main disconnect beside the meter at the exterior with the service equipment/main/only panel in the garage. Even with a main disconnect at the exterior there is still a main breaker in the only/main/service equipment/breaker panel. If there is another panel in the home then it is non service equipment separated neutral and ground panel or subordinate to the main panel or sub-panel and no I am not illiterate. Some times there are two panels and both are main/service equipment panels and are not tied into one another and each of those may have non service equipment, separated ground neutral subordinate to the main/service equipment or sub panels tied into them. Again there is nothing illiterate about any of that and there is no confusion. Confusion is only brought on when others bring the confusion on.

I am not stirring the pot her but I do not know any electrician, home inspector for that matter that do not know what a main disconnect, main panel/service equipment panel and sub or non service equipment panel is.

When talking to a client do you talk to them in the language of service equipment and non service equipment and main disconnect and such. I don't. I talk to them as the main panel in the garage and the sub-panel in the media room or where ever. Every electrician will know exactly what you mean so you are still not causing confusion. If there is a main disconnect outside by the meter I tell them where it is and what it is for.

If there is only 1 panel and it is in the garage I use the terminology of main panel in the garage I do not put in my report that the Service equipment for the electric service is in the garage and there is no non service equipment in the home with the exception of disconnect boxes by the water heater and AC condensers.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

On occasion there is a main disconnect beside the meter at the exterior with the service equipment/main/only panel in the garage.

Ted,

Nope, incorrect.

The "service equipment" is at that main disconnect outdoors by the meter.

The interior panel in the garage, then, become simply a "panel" as it is in no way any longer part of, or related to, "service equipment".

Even with a main disconnect at the exterior there is still a main breaker in the only/main/service equipment/breaker panel.

Incorrect again.

That now becomes a main *for that panel*, but it is not the main *for the service*, thus, the service equipment and main disconnect are located outdoors by the meter.

If there is another panel in the home then it is non service equipment separated neutral and ground panel or subordinate to the main panel or sub-panel and no I am not illiterate.

Sort of correct.

That other panel inside becomes "another" panel as the panel in the garage *is not service equipment*, the panel in the garage is simply an electrical "panel".

The rest of the post would require too many corrections to keep going as it is all based on the incorrect premise that there is two mains, one outside at the meter and on inside in the garage (in the case described above) or other variations of that ... at least for the part I read ... there was so much wrong in it that I simply stopped reading it and typed this last paragraph - that's my way of saying that maybe, just maybe, you said something in there which I did not read but which was correct ... maybe ...

"The service equipment *will always* have the main disconnect (also known as the service disconnect) located within it."

That's pretty much how I thought it was.


"With one exception"

I felt there must be an execption because there are two different terms.


Thanks for the information