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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Go to your township and find out what you need to do.
    .

    Nick,

    He did, and they did.

    But they cannot design it for him.

    That is why he needs to contact a local contractor and work out something with them (which I did not repeat in my last past as I had said it so often now).

    Inspection Referral SOC
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  2. #67
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Here You Go Sun-Tan,






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  3. #68
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?
    * Plastic and/or metal per require code.

    2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge

    * #14 gauge for general lighting and switches. #12 for any bath outlet. All others to comply with UL approved manufacturer recommendations and code.

    3) How may cables in each box?

    * not to exceed maximum rated for each individual UL approved box.

    4) Spacing between receptacles?

    * within 6' feet of either side of an entry to a room and not to exceed 12' between outlets.

    Are you required to have a licensed electrician do the work or will they let you do it yourself? They may be pumping you for your general understanding of codes.



  4. #69
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?
    * Plastic and/or metal per require code.

    2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge
    * #14 gauge for general lighting and switches. #12 for any bath outlet. All others to comply with UL approved manufacturer recommendations and code.

    3) How may cables in each box?
    * not to exceed maximum rated for each individual UL approved box.

    4) Spacing between receptacles?
    * within 6' feet of either side of an entry to a room and not to exceed 12' between outlets.

    Are you required to have a licensed electrician do the work or will they let you do it yourself? They may be pumping you for your general understanding of codes.
    Thanks Richard. I plan to get the work done by myself and a friend of mine who is very good in electrical but not licensed though.

    I also plan to buy some space saver heaters as an alternate to povide heat to the basement per the code as I dont plan to upgrade by furnace. Any suggestions on the type or is there a code requirement for me to have some x #? I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.


  5. #70
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post

    I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.

    .
    Why not just save yourself some time?
    .

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  6. #71
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    Thanks Richard. I plan to get the work done by myself and a friend of mine who is very good in electrical but not licensed though.

    I also plan to buy some space saver heaters as an alternate to povide heat to the basement per the code as I dont plan to upgrade by furnace. Any suggestions on the type or is there a code requirement for me to have some x #? I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.
    Check with your local electrical supply house (if your talking about elerctric space heaters) they should be able to give you some answers for your region. If your planning on gas make sure you are well ventilated, you need fresh air and some where for all the moisture from burning the gas to go.


  7. #72
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    If 8 inch block walls have a R value of 1 , and if this is a typical stud ,R11 and sheetrock wall with a R 13 ,
    and the existing furnace supply maintains 68 degrees at 4 ft from the floor , why do entertain the idea that a additional load demand will be required.
    The total heat demand from the furnace will be lower ,proportionate to the amount of wall that is above grade.
    Use your math skills and show the engineering .. you don't need to be a engineer to do engineering.
    Even if you did not insulate the R value of sheetrock and air film of the wall is a 2.
    That alone is a triple reduction of demand ...
    What you and the building plan reviewer are messing up with and everybody ignores is fresh air ventilation needs ,


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Also, looks like you are missing some receptacles based on what I can see which is not much.

    Richard,
    He did not complain about the inspection department and if those were the only questions that he was asked to answer then he is in pretty good shape. We would have required a lot more information than that whether a contractor or homeowner.
    Jeff,

    Where am I missing the receptacles? Please see the revised attachment and let me know if I am missing any in this

    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #74
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    Jeff,

    Where am I missing the receptacles? Please see the revised attachment and let me know if I am missing any in this

    You need to put dimensions on that drawing.

    Starting at the "storage", the nearest receptacles are shown way around the corners on the wall, with the walls on each side of the storage room doors being 4', that means the receptacles need to be within 2' of those two corners.

    I recommend using graph paper and creating a scale, then drawing to that scale.

    There are many questions, such as how wide is that stairway?

    By the way, I would not waste your money on using #14 AWG as suggested, use #12 AWG for all circuits, that will help reduce voltage drop and you can then protect all circuits with 20 amp breakers. No need to play around with saving a couple of bucks on wire, do it right, put in #12 AWG and forego potential problems.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #75
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You need to put dimensions on that drawing.

    Starting at the "storage", the nearest receptacles are shown way around the corners on the wall, with the walls on each side of the storage room doors being 4', that means the receptacles need to be within 2' of those two corners.

    I recommend using graph paper and creating a scale, then drawing to that scale.

    There are many questions, such as how wide is that stairway?

    By the way, I would not waste your money on using #14 AWG as suggested, use #12 AWG for all circuits, that will help reduce voltage drop and you can then protect all circuits with 20 amp breakers. No need to play around with saving a couple of bucks on wire, do it right, put in #12 AWG and forego potential problems.
    oops I missed that. I will make that correction so that is within 2 feet of those 2 corners. Am I missing any more receptacles. I will use 12AWG with 20 amp breakers as suggested by you. Why is the width of stairway coming into picture here?


  11. #76
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    oops I missed that. I will make that correction so that is within 2 feet of those 2 corners. Am I missing any more receptacles. I will use 12AWG with 20 amp breakers as suggested by you. Why is the width of stairway coming into picture here?
    I disagree 12-2 is not desirable unless you plan on using the basement circuits for heavier loads like treadmills, dehumidifiers, portable space heaters or any higher amp equipment. Then you will possibly need dedicated circuits. You should not experience voltage drop with 14-2 as long as you don't overload a circuit with excessive items such as recess lights. You should not exceed 12 devices (as a rule of thumb) including switches, outlets and lighting fixtures on any standard circuit whether #12 or #14. 12 wire is a pain in the ass the work within a box, it limits the amount of wires to each box and it's a pain in the ass to install outlets and switches with multiple lines, it kills your fingers and thumbs, it costs more and OH... and it's a pain the ass to work with.

    If Shatan had so little regard for #14 why doesn't he just say wire the basement in #10, it's not his money and finger tips anyway. I guess he includes potential voltage drop in his reporting when he encounters 14-2 in homes. Voltage drop will occur with motor loads, over loads and very long runs. Stick to what is proper, works and is the easiest.

    Also remember the interior of the plastic boxes will tell you how many wires you are allowed to fit in the box; each black wire = 1, each white = 1, each outlet or switch = 1 and all the grounds together = 1. So if you have a 14-2 feed, a 14-2 feed through, a 14-3 switch leg and a switch you will end up with 9 items for the box. DO NOT overload a box. The inspector, if any, loves to show off by failing a job for simple mistakes.

    Remember electricity is not for the weak. It moves too fast and hits too hard. When in doubt always consult a professional, not the guy who wired his dads garage once.


  12. #77
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    I disagree 12-2 is not desirable ...
    .

    Richard,

    Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity. He NEEDS to run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.

    Reduces that aspect of potential screw ups down to -0-.

    Based on his drawing, he will not have many conductors going into each box, basically just in-and-out pass through wiring. That will be his easiest and safest wiring method.

    If an electrician were doing it, and laying it out, that would be different.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #78
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity.

    He NEEDS to (run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.) call an electrician immediately.


    FWIW.


  14. #79
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    Richard,

    Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity. He NEEDS to run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.

    Reduces that aspect of potential screw ups down to -0-.

    Based on his drawing, he will not have many conductors going into each box, basically just in-and-out pass through wiring. That will be his easiest and safest wiring method.

    If an electrician were doing it, and laying it out, that would be different.
    Screw ups are screw ups regarless of the wire type. What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire. I don't understand how the use of 12-wire makes it less likely to screw up or even safe. Would they be screw ups of inconvienience or safety that he would be avoiding?

    If he "a DIY homeowner" is wiring himself, that’s potentially screw up #1. 12 wire takes a little more finesse to work with and that only comes with experience. Its more difficult to properly twist and make adequate connections, that's potential screw up #2. You can more easily crack a switch or outlet when pushing the wired device back into box, potential screw up #3. If you don't achieve proper recessing of the wires from the device, because #12 doesn't like to move, you may have an arching situation, potential screw up #4 and so on and so on.

    I don't recommend anyone working with a more difficult material, no matter how minor the difference. Would you advise him to use metal boxes because they're tougher without letting him know how the difference between the installation needs for them as to plastic.All he would have to do is split the circuit and use two feeds for the basement circuit and all would be well. I think that if the DIY'er has confidence or experience with #12 wire, then go ahead, but those who have never handled miles of this wire it's a pain to work with, literally.


  15. #80
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    Screw ups are screw ups regarless of the wire type. What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire. I don't understand how the use of 12-wire makes it less likely to screw up or even safe.

    Ummm ... Richard, ... I know you don't understand, and neither does he.

    By running all #12 AWG, he can put everything on 20 amp breakers.

    He removes the risk of overloading some poorly planned circuits and removes the risk of installing a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp rated circuit.

    There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*.

    In a large project, where there is an electrician, who (supposedly) knows what they are doing, then, there is a cost savings of only using #14 AWG where only 15 amp rated circuits are needed, however ... EVEN THEN there is the voltage drop issue, which is readily solved, are at least lessened, by using #12 AWG everywhere.

    I repeat:

    "There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #81
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    .
    I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters.

    I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post

    What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire.
    .....

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  17. #82
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    Also remember the interior of the plastic boxes will tell you how many wires you are allowed to fit in the box; each black wire = 1, each white = 1, each outlet or switch = 1 and all the grounds together = 1. So if you have a 14-2 feed, a 14-2 feed through, a 14-3 switch leg and a switch you will end up with 9 items for the box. DO NOT overload a box. The inspector, if any, loves to show off by failing a job for simple mistakes.
    Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
    14-2 x 2 = 4
    14-3 x 1 = 3
    ground = 1
    switch = 2
    Total 10

    The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.


  18. #83
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
    14-2 x 2 = 4
    14-3 x 1 = 3
    ground = 1
    switch = 2
    Total 10

    The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.
    sorry,I am corrected


  19. #84
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    What exactly does Shatan mean by "space saver heaters"? Is he talking the plug-in fire starters? These things aren't saving any space. If anything, they take up floor space.

    I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be resistant to installing a proper permanent heat source in a finished area.


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    What exactly does Shatan mean by "space saver heaters"? Is he talking the plug-in fire starters? These things aren't saving any space. If anything, they take up floor space.

    I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be resistant to installing a proper permanent heat source in a finished area.
    I took it as wall heaters.


  21. #86
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Shatan,
    Get an electrician to help you review what needs to be done and prepare documentation. The mere fact that you are here asking basic questions tells me you need help. You may be able to do the wiring yourself but the preparation is key.

    Box sizes will depend almost entirely on the number of conductors that will be in them along with the number of devices. Without a cable pull diagram showing how you plan on wiring the fixtures, there is no way to tell what you will need.

    The cost of an electrician will be minimal compared to what you will save by doing the work yourself. The code official cannot design anything for you but will give you code references if you fail an inspection.

    If you feel the need to finish your basement then you can afford to hire a professional to get you to where you need to be.
    I'm with him. Save money on painting not wiring.


  22. #87
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
    14-2 x 2 = 4
    14-3 x 1 = 3
    ground = 1
    switch = 2
    Total 10

    The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.
    When asked about how many cables in each electric box from Township, what would be the answer if I have one 14-2 coming in and one 14-2 going out from the electric box. BTW I am using a B122 A Blue Plastic 22.5 cu in box


  23. #88
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    When asked about how many cables in each electric box from Township, what would be the answer if I have one 14-2 coming in and one 14-2 going out from the electric box. BTW I am using a B122 A Blue Plastic 22.5 cu in box
    7, but that's only that box.


  24. #89
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    7, but that's only that box.
    I was wondering why 7 if there is a 14-2 guage coming and 14-2 gauge going out. Do they really mean # of cables or # of wires


  25. #90
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    I repeat:

    "There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*."[/quote]
    "There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*"
    OH yes there is...
    "There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."
    His electrical inspector, if he'll have one, should be savvy enough to spot over fusing, but may not see the improper or loose connections under a wire nut or behind a device. Over fusing is something that can be visually detected. Loose and/or poor connections are often hidden and not so spotted, perhaps until after the fire.

    I only have concern because most electrical fires, within a circuit, happen because of loose/poor connections. I want this guy to be safe, not be happy because his lights won't dim when his beer fridge kicks on.

    Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck. I respect anyone who is willing to work themselves, but if you screw up on some framing the worst you’ll get is a crooked wall, but if you screw up with the wiring…..



  26. #91
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    "There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."

    Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck. I respect anyone who is willing to work themselves, but if you screw up on some framing the worst you’ll get is a crooked wall, but if you screw up with the wiring…..

    I agree completely.


  27. #92
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Thacker View Post
    "There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."
    Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck.
    .

    Agreed, and that is what I and others have been telling him.

    Then you came in and tried to show him how to wire the house ... ... against your own advice as you stated above ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  28. #93
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    [/font].

    Agreed, and that is what I and others have been telling him.

    Then you came in and tried to show him how to wire the house ... ... against your own advice as you stated above ...
    How long has Jerry been narcissistic?


  29. #94
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    All the fear over a wire nut connection causing a conflagration is silly.
    This is a simple basement job.
    The terroristic threats of doom if some desi screws up some connections is absurd.
    the statistics of incidents of home fires of every thing that this guy might do in that space are minimal.
    and the numbers of deaths is even less.


  30. #95
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    All the fear over a wire nut connection causing a conflagration is silly.
    This is a simple basement job.
    The terroristic threats of doom if some desi screws up some connections is absurd.
    the statistics of incidents of home fires of every thing that this guy might do in that space are minimal.
    and the numbers of deaths is even less.
    Sorry Richard,

    Got to disagree with you on this. Loose or poorly made connection are one of the leading causes of fires. One death from poor work is too much. Not only could poor work put his family at risk but also the fire fighters that respond to the fire.

    This person is having trouble counting conductors for box fill. Do you think that their ability to judge the quality of a connection is anywhere near qualified? I certainly don't. They have shown disregard that they are over their head.


  31. #96
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Sorry Richard,

    Got to disagree with you on this. Loose or poorly made connection are one of the leading causes of fires. One death from poor work is too much. Not only could poor work put his family at risk but also the fire fighters that respond to the fire.

    This person is having trouble counting conductors for box fill. Do you think that their ability to judge the quality of a connection is anywhere near qualified? I certainly don't. They have shown disregard that they are over their head.
    Jim.......I disagree with you and completely agree with Richard. I dont plan to use the basement a lot with heavy power. I am just going to have a cable in and cable out in a receptacle to another receptacle and so on with about 7 receptacles. Why do you think I have a problem counting the number of conductors for a box fill. Its just the naming convention I am confused.


  32. #97
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I dont plan to use the basement a lot with heavy power. I am just going to have a cable in and cable out in a receptacle to another receptacle and so on with about 7 receptacles.
    Just a cursory look at the drawing I don't see how you plan to satisfy the Code required spacing with only 7 receptacles.

    If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.


  33. #98
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.
    Just don't use these books.
    Today, Taunton Press, in cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, voluntarily recalled two separate electrical how-to books that contained improper instructions that could put consumers at risk.
    The problem with working with electrical is that a novice "can't know what they don't know."
    Or as my daddy used to say, "they know just enough to be dangerous."

    Jim Luttrall
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  34. #99
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Mr. Sun - Tan has already made up his ( convention) mind He can count therefore He can wire a Residential Space.

    #1. Best Case.

    #2. Worst case ( if someone else is in the Home ) *
    if no one else is evolved see #1.
    .

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  35. #100
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Just visited this after a few days. Surprised that this thread is still alive and feeding the original poster. This thread should have been dead a long time ago. This is an inspector forum, not a DIY for morons with zero common sense waiting for someone to tell them what they want to hear.

    Let it die.


  36. #101
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    This is an inspector forum, not a DIY for morons with zero common sense waiting for someone to tell them what they want to hear.

    Let it die.
    Jeff,

    While this is an inspector forum, it is also a public forum, so we get the occasional DIY person here.

    You haven't been here long enough to see that, and, once here, we try to help them see the light in that we try to get them to not kill themselves and their families.

    You also have not been here long enough to have read Richard P.'s posts (he is also new here) and his anti-code rantings. Richard P. seems to think that we all have the right to kill ourselves as we see fit (I agree with that part to a point) and to kill others in the process or later (I completely disagree with that part).

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  37. #102
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    I just figured we were approaching 100 posts with no progress on compliance recommendations. He needs to visit his AHJ.


  38. #103
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    I just figured we were approaching 100 posts with no progress on compliance recommendations. He needs to visit his AHJ.

    He's been visiting his AHJ, they keep asking for information.

    What he needs to do is contact and work with a local contractor to help him design what he needs to have, the AHJ is not there for design purposes.

    Then the AHJ can do their job: review the plans for compliance, make inspections.

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  39. #104
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    He's been visiting his AHJ, they keep asking for information.

    What he needs to do is contact and work with a local contractor to help him design what he needs to have, the AHJ is not there for design purposes.

    Then the AHJ can do their job: review the plans for compliance, make inspections.
    Good point, I agree.


  40. #105
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Just a cursory look at the drawing I don't see how you plan to satisfy the Code required spacing with only 7 receptacles.

    If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.
    Jim... I will have total 3 connections (15 amps each) from the cirucit panel in garage. One will be used for lighting and 2 for the total receptacles. why would you think that I am not satisfying the code required spacing with only 7 receptacles. BTW I agree that I missed a receptacle from the left side of the mechanical room which I now added in the plan. Now tell me am I voilating any code when it comes to spacing.

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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post

    . I will have total 3 connections (15 amps each) from the cirucit
    .
    * see link
    .
    Electrical Wiring in the Home: Space heater wiring, amp circuit, amp service
    .

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  42. #107
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Billy,

    That link says the same thing we have been telling him.

    "Either way it would be wise to have an electrician come out and check your circuits to make sure you can safely use a space heater on your circuits."

    Let's see, he is going to be putting at least two baseboard heaters in down there ... oops, there goes two 20 amp circuits right there ...

    ... hmmmm ... what was it that I was saying about using #12 AWG for ALL of the circuits??? You know, just in case ...

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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post

    I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Billy,."

    Let's see, he is going to be putting at least two baseboard heaters in down there ... oops, there goes two 20 amp circuits right there ...

    ... hmmmm..
    .
    Oh Not This Guy, ( He can count & read a Book.)
    .

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  44. #109
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    3) PROVIDE HOW THE ALTERATION OF THE BASEMENT TO BE HEATED. INDICATE ELECTRIC BASEBOARD HEAT OR OF USING THE EXISTING HVAC, IT MUST BE CERTIFIED THAT IT WILL SUPPORT THE NEW ADDITIONAL VOLUME, AN THE DUCT WORK IS SIZE CORRECTLY SO THAT IT WILL NOT BECOME OVERLOADED AND HAZARDOUS.

    My only question to them was I already have a supply vent currently in my unifinished basement which was provided by the builder and I dont need more than that.Then they gave me reference to 2003 International Mechanical Code Chapter 1 Section 102.4. It states that Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing mechanical system to become unsafe, hazardous or overloaded. How do I convince them. Do I use baseboard heat. If so, what kind. I want the one's which can be plugged into the receptacle. Please advise me on item #1, 2, 3.
    There's the answer I was looking for. Plug-in heaters are not a permanent heat source. You may not like hardwired electric baseboard heaters but you do need a heat source in the area that is to be finished. If the HVAC supply duct register provided by the builder in your basement is already in that area, then you have your heat source right there. If it isn't in that area, your choices would be either tapping into your existing HVAC system or
    electric baseboards.


  45. #110
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    There's the answer I was looking for. Plug-in heaters are not a permanent heat source. You may not like hardwired electric baseboard heaters but you do need a heat source in the area that is to be finished. If the HVAC supply duct register provided by the builder in your basement is already in that area, then you have your heat source right there. If it isn't in that area, your choices would be either tapping into your existing HVAC system or
    electric baseboards.
    I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.


  46. #111
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.
    That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system.


  47. #112
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system.
    I have no idea. I plan to close the duct for now and then reopen after getting Certificate of Occupancy. I will hardly use the basement and hence not keen in upgrading the furnace.


  48. #113
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system.
    .

    I'm guessing the reason the AHJ said that is the size and CFM capabilities of the one duct, and that it was added 'not to heat the basement', but 'to keep the basement from freezing' - which a big difference.

    The *permanent heat source* which is required must be sufficient to maintain the minimum required temperature: From the IRC - "every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms".

    That one supply was not intended to maintain that temperature, thus they are telling you that you will either need to upgrade the existing furnace to meet that, or, install another heat source to meet it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I have no idea. I plan to close the duct for now and then reopen after getting Certificate of Occupancy. I will hardly use the basement and hence not keen in upgrading the furnace.
    .

    It does not matter "how much you plan to use the basement", it simply matters that the basement is now finished into habitable space, and thus requires a properly sized PERMANENT heating source.

    You will not be able to "get away with" those plug-in heaters, you will need to install "permanently installed" heaters capable of heating that area.

    Guys, he just does not get it. He only wants to do what he wants to do, and allowing him to talk you into agreeing that he can do less than is required *could* get you involved into a legal problem later.

    If he really wanted to do what was required, he would have taken our comments and contacted a contractor to help design what he needs. Instead, he keeps coming back insisting that he does not need to do what is required simply because (reasons vary, mostly "because I don't want to" or "I won't be using that area much" or ... etc.).

    We need to let this thread die off, least we become involved and negligent in helping him kill his family or a future family who occupies the house after he sells.

    Leave him ponder his own fate, we have helped more than we can for someone who is not looking for advice, but is looking for acceptance on doing what he is doing.

    shatan,

    You came asking questions, but what you really want is someone to pat you on your back and tell you the AHJ is being too hard on you, that you should do what you want to do regardless ... that is not the case here ... YOU are going about this all wrong, your AHJ is doing the best they can while you are trying to defeat their help, insisting that you only need to do certain things because (your last excuse) "I will hardly use the basement" ... you just do not *get it* - it does not matter 'how often' you will use it, or what you want to try to get away with, the code is there for minimum life safety protection of everyone, you, your family, and future occupants ... have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?

    All of us here need to NOT become accomplices, willing or unwilling, to his actions.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  49. #114
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Shatan can you post some photos of the basement about 4 or 5

    Best

    Ron


  50. #115
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;66972]have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?[QUOTE]

    I often put things this way to my clients when I get the idea that they are willing to live with some defects. There may come a time in the future when you want to move and future buyers will want something fixed. It becomes your responsibility and on your dime if you just accept and live with things as they are. In this case with Shatan, it is even worse because he as the homeowner has been advised multiple times what he needs to do but insists on doing things the wrong way.

    You can pay a little now or maybe a whole lot later Shatan. Do it right the first time.


  51. #116
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    So we are advising on how to do the electrical and how to work with the AHJ. Hypothetically Speaking this things gets off the ground. he put all the wires in and has the hook up done and something goes wrong Then every one on the post gets a letter from his Law Office. that things went very wrong and each poster on this board has been named in a law suit. deposition and discovery are to start on Monday.

    Just messing with ya... L.O.L.

    Best

    Ron


  52. #117
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    I'm guessing the reason the AHJ said that is the size and CFM capabilities of the one duct, and that it was added 'not to heat the basement', but 'to keep the basement from freezing' - which a big difference.

    The *permanent heat source* which is required must be sufficient to maintain the minimum required temperature: From the IRC - "every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms".

    That one supply was not intended to maintain that temperature, thus they are telling you that you will either need to upgrade the existing furnace to meet that, or, install another heat source to meet it.

    .

    It does not matter "how much you plan to use the basement", it simply matters that the basement is now finished into habitable space, and thus requires a properly sized PERMANENT heating source.

    You will not be able to "get away with" those plug-in heaters, you will need to install "permanently installed" heaters capable of heating that area.

    Guys, he just does not get it. He only wants to do what he wants to do, and allowing him to talk you into agreeing that he can do less than is required *could* get you involved into a legal problem later.

    If he really wanted to do what was required, he would have taken our comments and contacted a contractor to help design what he needs. Instead, he keeps coming back insisting that he does not need to do what is required simply because (reasons vary, mostly "because I don't want to" or "I won't be using that area much" or ... etc.).

    We need to let this thread die off, least we become involved and negligent in helping him kill his family or a future family who occupies the house after he sells.

    Leave him ponder his own fate, we have helped more than we can for someone who is not looking for advice, but is looking for acceptance on doing what he is doing.

    shatan,

    You came asking questions, but what you really want is someone to pat you on your back and tell you the AHJ is being too hard on you, that you should do what you want to do regardless ... that is not the case here ... YOU are going about this all wrong, your AHJ is doing the best they can while you are trying to defeat their help, insisting that you only need to do certain things because (your last excuse) "I will hardly use the basement" ... you just do not *get it* - it does not matter 'how often' you will use it, or what you want to try to get away with, the code is there for minimum life safety protection of everyone, you, your family, and future occupants ... have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?

    All of us here need to NOT become accomplices, willing or unwilling, to his actions.
    Jerry..........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat.


  53. #118
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Shatan can you post some photos of the basement about 4 or 5

    Best

    Ron
    Ron.......Please find the photos attached. Thanks

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  54. #119
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    ........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat.

    .
    If You Live That Long.
    .



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  55. #120
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Looks like you have a heater in the basement.

    if so why do you need to mess with the temp systems?

    Best

    Ron


  56. #121
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post

    Looks like you have a heater in the basement.

    Ron
    .
    .
    It's a Dehumidifier.

    Ole Sun -Tan has Moisture Intrusion Issues.
    * along with other problems.
    .

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  57. #122
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    Jerry..........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat.
    .

    If your AHJ is doing their job, you WILL make sure there is proper PERMANENT heat *before you get your inspection signed off*.

    That is up to them, and you. That is what they were telling you, if they stand by the code, when it comes time to have your inspection, you will fail it due to not having permanent heat for that area.

    Your call, so be it.

    As the guy used to say in the Fram oil filter ads "You can pay me now ... or you can pay me later.", and, as those ads showed, and Billy said, *later* costs a whole lot more than *now*.

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  58. #123
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    You said hu! hu! hu! Issues. hu!




    Best

    Ron


  59. #124
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post

    You said hu! hu! hu! Issues. hu! \
    Best

    Ron
    .
    .
    .
    Yep!
    .


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  60. #125
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Billy,

    I know you're from Memphis, TN, an all, but y'all outta no dat whil weuns can pointe ought whar he's wrong, but yall reely shoed respec da feller 'nough ta kall hym buy hid owed name ... eyes nood Bobby Joe Mack an even Bubba wood kall hym buy hid owed name.

    His name is not Sun-Tan. While we can see that he is seeking justification and acceptance for not wanting to do what he is required to do and should do, we should at least call him by his own name, right Mr. Billy?

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  61. #126
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Billy,

    I know you're from Memphis, TN, an all, but y'all outta no dat whil weuns can pointe ought whar he's wrong, but yall reely shoed respec da feller 'nough ta kall hym buy hid owed name ... eyes nood Bobby Joe Mack an even Bubba wood kall hym buy hid owed name.

    His name is not Sun-Tan. While we can see that he is seeking justification and acceptance for not wanting to do what he is required to do and should do, we should at least call him by his own name, right Mr. Billy?
    .
    It All sounds Like a Scam to Me.
    *couldn't believe anything he (or she ) said.

    One made up Stage name
    (shatan) , Sun -Tan all the same.
    * could ( should ) have called he or she much worse.

    Slap some Drywall on them Wet ( fire trap ) Basement Walls.
    .
    Until He Takes his Head out It's Sun - Tan !
    .


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  62. #127
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Faulty Instructions Prompt Recall of Electrical Wiring How-to-Books by The Taunton Press; Shock Hazard to Consumers

    NEWS from CPSC

    U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

    Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    December 30, 2008
    Release #09-078
    Firm's Recall Hotline: (800) 477-8727
    CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
    CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
    Faulty Instructions Prompt Recall of Electrical Wiring How-to-Books by The Taunton Press; Shock Hazard to Consumers

    WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.

    Name of Product: Wiring a House, 3rd Edition and Wiring Complete, Expert Advice from Start to Finish Instructional Books

    Units: About 64,000

    Publisher: The Taunton Press, of Newtown, Conn.

    Hazard: The books contain several errors in the technical diagrams that could lead consumers to incorrectly install or repair electrical wiring, posing an electrical shock hazard to consumers.

    Incidents/Injuries: None reported.

    Description: The recall involves the 3rd Edition of Wiring a House. The paperback book’s cover is white and yellow and has a photograph of a man wiring a panel. ISBN #978-1-56158-942-5 is printed on the back cover. Wiring Complete, Expert Advice from Start to Finish is paperback and has a green, black and white cover that shows hands wiring an electrical wall receptacle.

    Sold at: Home improvement stores, book stores, and various other retailers nationwide from February 2008 through November 2008 for about $25.

    Manufactured in: United States

    Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using the books and return them to the place of purchase for a full refund.

    Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Taunton at (800) 477-8727 between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday, or visit the firm’s Web site The Taunton Press


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  63. #128
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

    Qty Size Items
    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
    KW Baseboard Heat

    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
    Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

    If Space Heater indeed means Space Saver Heater then I believe I can use Space Heater as an alternate for heating. If so, any calculation of number of them needed according to the code.


  64. #129
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

    Qty Size Items
    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
    KW Baseboard Heat

    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
    Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

    If Space Heater indeed means Space Saver Heater then I believe I can use Space Heater as an alternate for heating. If so, any calculation of number of them needed according to the code.
    .

    You keep saying "space saver heater" and we keep saying that probably means "portable heaters".

    First, you need to clarify what it is you mean by "space saver heater".

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  65. #130
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    You keep saying "space saver heater" and we keep saying that probably means "portable heaters".

    First, you need to clarify what it is you mean by "space saver heater".
    I mean the plug in heaters. When it says Space Heater, does it mean plug in/plug out heaters or is it referring to something else and if it is the case then I belive I can use space heaters on a 20amp/120 v circuit or a 20 amp/220 volt circuit


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