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  1. #131
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I mean the plug in heaters.
    .

    That is what I thought.

    When it says Space Heater, does it mean plug in/plug out heaters or is it referring to something else
    .

    No, a "space heater" is not a "portable heater".

    There are two basic types of heating systems: 1) space heaters which heat the space they are in; 2) central ducted heaters which duct the air to other spaces.

    The code does not require you to install a "central ducted heating system", you may install "space heaters" in the spaces requiring heat.

    Which gets back to what I keep telling you and you keep trying to not do: YOU NEED TO INSTALL *PERMANENTLY INSTALLED* HEATERS.

    That means not only secured in place, but permanently wired and connected in place.

    I don't know any other way to keep telling you that. You just keep not wanting to hear it.

    I will repeat if for you AGAIN:

    "YOU NEED TO INSTALL *PERMANENTLY INSTALLED* HEATERS."

    NHIE Practice Exam
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  2. #132
    shatan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    If I am putting 16 Gauge speaker wires through the rough frame work for the speakers on the walls, do I need to specify those on the plans and electric subcode technical section or its not required. BTW I am not ceiling speakers but only wall speakers.


  3. #133
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

    Qty Size Items
    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
    KW Baseboard Heat

    HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
    Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

    .
    .
    .....
    .

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  4. #134
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Sun Tan Sun Tan Sun Tan.

    The End

    Best

    Ron


  5. #135
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    I just read this thread...well most of it anyway...and you've got to admit...this guy's not going to give up!

    If he is like this with the AHJ they'll get tired of him and say "To hell with it! Give this guy whatever he wants and get him the hell out of my office!!"

    A question for shatan, have you tried researching anything for yourself?

    I think you would know all of the answers if you spent as much time researching as you have asking questions on this forum.


  6. #136
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    If he is like this with the AHJ they'll get tired of him and say "To hell with it! Give this guy whatever he wants and get him the hell out of my office!!"

    If it were my AHJ, at some point my answer would be: Plan Review - Rejected, then repeat each and every time he came in until he finally did what he needs to do - work something out with a local contractor so he can get it right.

    In the meantime, though, I'm through answering his questions, he just does not get it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #137
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If it were my AHJ, at some point my answer would be: Plan Review - Rejected, then repeat each and every time he came in until he finally did what he needs to do - work something out with a local contractor so he can get it right.

    In the meantime, though, I'm through answering his questions, he just does not get it.
    He is not going to spend any money on a contractor... I pick that up about 120 some post back... he is just look for some one on this board to give him all the answer and do it for him. he's smart that way. that little rascal.

    Best

    Ron


  8. #138
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    If I am putting 16 Gauge speaker wires through the rough frame work for the speakers on the walls, do I need to specify those on the plans and electric subcode technical section or its not required. BTW I am not ceiling speakers but only wall speakers.
    Those speaker wires will need to be enclosed in PVC conduit and emusified in ovaltine bitumen. If you have trouble fishing the wires through the conduit, there is a product called Liquid Nails that will speed things along. Use lots of it.


  9. #139
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
    Shannon Guinn Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Also, looks like you are missing some receptacles based on what I can see which is not much.

    Richard,
    He did not complain about the inspection department and if those were the only questions that he was asked to answer then he is in pretty good shape. We would have required a lot more information than that whether a contractor or homeowner.
    Jeff, good post. My jurisdiction hasn't come around to the questionaire for electrical permits, or electrical permits for that matter. We have what are called power only permits, which to me are similar but not quite the cigar I would hope for. The county just wants either a licensed contractor or the homeowner to accept liability. However, other jurisdictions that are close by have instituted this practice, which garners my respect. It's one thing to actually be capable of performing the work to be done versus signing off on a permit and then letting some "guy" that says he knows what he's doing, even though he's not licensed or insured. I would say that this type of installation could land the homeowner in a world of hurt in the event of a fire. I believe that a few questions should be asked to verify the general working knowledge of an applicant for permit before issuance.


  10. #140
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    I still don't understand why you would ask these kind of questions on a plan review. I think it's overboard for a basement finish out!


  11. #141
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    I still don't understand why you would ask these kind of questions on a plan review.
    .

    Because it is needed and necessary information to determine the validity of the plan, which is what plan review is for.

    I think it's overboard for a basement finish out!
    .

    It is no long "a basement finish out", it now become "enclosed habitable space" - would not you want to know for, say, the "enclosed habitable space" also known as "a bedroom" and a "living room"? Why would you want to know less here?

    I still don't see where he is addressing EEROs - not that I am trying to encourage any more questions from him, only trying to open his eyes to what he is doing and what he should be doing (which, so far, has not been successful).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #142
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    This is the first I've heard of a AHJ requesting size of boxes, number of wire, size of wire etc.

    You would determine that at the rough in. Sorry I just don't see it. Yes I do see a schematic showing location of receptacle, smoke detectors, switches and other things to determine if the proposed project met code...but wire sizes/box size...just don't get it.

    Architects on commercial plans don't even specify the box size.

    Sorry...still overboard in my opinion...but if the AHJ says it has to be submitted then that is all that matters. Got to submit it!


  13. #143
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by shatan View Post
    I am sorry everyone if I have been rude here. That's not my intention. My only question is that is there really a code for requiring heat in the state of new jersey.
    Why are you bothering with plans, permits, and all requirements? YOU want someone to tell you what you want to hear. Just put it in anyway you wish. Don't get a building permit or the required inspections. Over half the "Finished" basements I inspect are thoroughly botched DIY jobs.

    Someday you may want to sell this house. Think about it that way. Prospective buyers wont care what YOU need. It will be a lot CHEAPER to put heat in now.

    If you go to a restaurant, do you argue and fuss with your server? Before you finish eating? A little advice: Do not argue with the code office or inspectors in a case like this. It will never pay, but it could COST YOU a lot. Having been an inspector (bridge construction), you really, really, do not want to p-off the inspector.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  14. #144
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    This is the first I've heard of a AHJ requesting size of boxes, number of wire, size of wire etc.

    You would determine that at the rough in. Sorry I just don't see it. Yes I do see a schematic showing location of receptacle, smoke detectors, switches and other things to determine if the proposed project met code...but wire sizes/box size...just don't get it.

    Architects on commercial plans don't even specify the box size. /...
    1. This is a Harry homeowner not a commercial job. A really building/electrical dumb Harry at that (in my opinion developed reading this thread).
    2. Commercial plans may not specifically show wire and box sizes, but somewhere there is a spec note stating either the appropriate code the installation is to meet or other special provision information if it is not "standard"
    3. I personally think the code office was attempting to help a citizen who appears to be totally unqualified. Letting him know there is information that he needs to know to get the job done and they need to know at application/review time.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  15. #145
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Roland,

    Obviously you have never done plan review before.



    The plan reviewer needs to know those things BEFORE they can give an opinion on the plan.

    Not true

    You are sounding like Richard P. in that it is not the submitters obligation to provide the required information, that it is the building departments job to approve whatever incomplete plans are given to them. If that is what you think, you are so very wrong.

    Without the required information, the plan reviewer cannot offer an opinion or advice, not even a code reference (other than the one I gave which requires the information be provided on the plans).
    You can complete a plan review and provide meaningful, code referenced comments without this stuff. I could do a plan review without any information and provide meaningful information to the submitter. It just shows me this place is either jerking this guy around or they don't know what they are doing....

    You must be right, Jerry--I only did plan reviews for four years....

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  16. #146
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    I could do a plan review without any information and provide meaningful information to the submitter.
    .

    "I could do a plan review without any information ... "

    " ... and provide meaningful information to the submitter."

    How on earth could you do a plan review without any information?

    And then be able to provide any information to the submitter, much less meaningful information?

    And you said you've done plan review for 4 years?

    The drawings ARE REQUIRED to contain sufficient information (meaning all of the information necessary) to construct what is to be constructed.

    From the 2006 IRC. (red text is mine)
    - R106.1.1 Information on construction documents.
    Construction documents shall be drawn upon suitable material. Electronic media documents are permitted to be submitted when approved by the building official. Construction documents shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the location, nature and extent of the work proposed and show in detail that it will conform to the provisions of this code and relevant laws, ordinances, rules and regulations, as determined by the building official.

    Some building departments take that to mean that the plans should contain A LOT of information, EVERYTHING needed to construct what is to be constructed. *I* am of that view also.

    Some building departments take that to mean that the plans should contain less information, BUT ENOUGH INFORMATION so as they do not have to ask question (if they have to ask question, obviously that required information is missing).

    I have yet to see a building department that does not require any information, and asks no questions - heck, why even have that building department? They are doing nothing of any consequence.

    When I was helping review plans for some high-rises in Las Vegas, the number of occupants of each room and area was required to be shown on the plans, as was the number of occupants each corridor, exit stairway, exit discharge, etc., was intended to handle. We did the math to verify that selected occupant loads were correct, then did the math to verify that the occupant load of selected corridors, stairways, etc., could handle the occupant load being impressed upon them ... AND MANY COULD NOT.

    That was just an example of some of the information we required TO BE ON THE DRAWINGS. If we had to ask ... then that was "required information" and it was considered MISSING, the drawings were then sent back to the architect to have the MISSING information to be shown on the drawings.

    If *IS NOT* the building departments responsibility to design or guess the architects' intent. It is the building departments responsibility to review the plans for compliance, and if the information is missing with regard to plan review, the contractor will not be able to construct it either - not without getting that additional information ... which should have been provided on day one.

    I know, I know, ... this is not a 60 story high-rise, it is a basement remodel, NONETHELESS, though, the information required to be able to do the work properly and in accordance with the code *is required to be on the drawings*.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #147
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    IMHO--there is a difference between having multitudes of certifications, reading the code and knowing what you are doing. BUREAUCRACY. The abuse of official influence in the affairs of government; corruption. This word has lately been adopted to signify that those persons who are employed in bureaus abuse their authority by intrigue to promote their own benefit, or that of friends, rather than the public good. The word is derived from the French.

    1 a: a body of nonelective government officials b: an administrative policy-making group
    2: government characterized by specialization of functions, adherence to fixed rules, and a hierarchy of authority
    3: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape, and proliferation

    4)Bureaucrat--one who blindly follows because he doesn't know what he is doing

    You just have to know what you are doing.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  18. #148
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    Because it is needed and necessary information to determine the validity of the plan, which is what plan review is for.

    .

    It is no long "a basement finish out", it now become "enclosed habitable space" - would not you want to know for, say, the "enclosed habitable space" also known as "a bedroom" and a "living room"? Why would you want to know less here?

    Plus, in some areas of the country (like mine) some people depend on what is known as septic tanks for "you know what". On a house for example, the septic system is based on number of bedrooms. That is something that needs a bit of overkill because if you undersize the septic system and it malfunctions you are literally in a world of, well, "you know what".

    Besides, there are some jurisdictions in GA that base their electrical permits pricing on number of drops, size of HVAC, size of service, number of appliances, etc. and require a floorplan. It's not all about the money, I'd like to think that some of the stuff that goes on actually makes sense, if not to me then perhaps someone else. If it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to comply with local requirements I say why not, especially if it helps to protect human life. Just my two cents.


  19. #149
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    You just have to know what you are doing.

    AND be qualified to do it.

    They do go hand in hand.

    Neither makes the other a problem.

    And, requesting the required information does not make it a hardship on the provider, and, if it does, then the provider of that information should not be undertaking the project to begin with.

    It is all about safety and having it done correctly, and being able to know that it is being done correctly.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #150
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    PLEASE! kill this thread PLEASE

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  21. #151
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Jerry are you originally from Michigan?

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  22. #152
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Roland,

    Never been there.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #153
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Jerry it was either there or California. But never mind, I see you have associated with Mike Holt and probably Bryan Holland and maybe Nick Sasso. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  24. #154
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    I am just trying to understand where you are coming from..

    Roland,

    I'm coming from back thataway ... heading out thisaway ... trying to pick up some knowledge along the way ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #155
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    Jerry --It is hard for me to imagine that you could get any more information into your brain. Mine would not hold that much... Thanks for having an accurate code answer for questions. Even though "Home Inspector" may not be inspecting to code they need to be aware of what makes the items they are looking at an issue.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  26. #156
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    MY EYES ARE BURNING.

    I can't believe I read this whole thread in one sitting. Should of dropped this guy 55 post ago. Jerry you have patience, you keep telling him and he blanks right over it. I would of snapped.

    I think he should use #18 lamp cord. 38 bucks for 250' at the big box. Save your money on receptacles and just hang the wires out of the boxes and cut the plugs off your appliances and twist them together and wrap with Scotch clear tape.

    I got to go and put some eye drops in!

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  27. #157
    Jim Zborowski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

    This guy reminds me of someone I use to work with. He would ask no less than 5 people how to do something, then do it his own way anyway. Then he'd beg the same 5 guys to help him fix it after he totally screwed it up. He never learned either.

    Shatan, we had a sign hanging in the shop that read " Why is there never time or money to do it right the first time, but there's always time and money to do it over?"
    Think about it.


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