Thread: Jeff and Jerry

I will quit toying with you guys. I realized now this is "your" forum. Basically you can put out some really good code compliant advise. Just remember others have code valid ideas such as the AHJ issue and the plan review issue and just because you both find it appalling doesn't mean it is not available to those that chose to use it. Common sense is a gift and goes a long way toward getting the job done in a reasonable manner. You can't hold up the codebook with xyz page open and match it up to the real world. Anytime you attach a poster's name to a ridicule or put down makes it personal. So work on that issue. And remember neither one of you is right all the time.

Go back and read all the threads I responded to and you will see what you are doing to others. Remember, I came to this forum as a "mirror" to both of you. So shuck the egos and get on with making the world a clone of yourselves... It doesn't make it wrong --just the same...

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• Jeff Eastman

Roland, I understand where you are coming from and I don't think that we disagree on much except your view on the AHJ.

It is my understanding that you feel as though the AHJ has the ability to approve items that are not code compliant as far as the prescriptive code is concerned if they use a "common sense" approach. While the AHJ can "approve" certain items, it is limited and cannot be used to circumvent an existing, prescriptive code.

In my state we get audited by the department of L&I and they spot check our work, more for commercial than anything. We get written up if they find violations that we missed or "approved". It is not worth losing your certificatiion, getting disciplined or worse, losing your job just because you wanted to take it easy on an electrician.

There are plenty of codes out there that I don't agree with on a personal level but I am legally held to a specific standard and must enforce it no matter what my personal opinion is. Example: 2nd ground rod is BS.

Another situation is that these codes were cultivated and refined for over a 100 year span, learning lessons along the way. They are all there for a reason and as we all know, many are "written in blood." I am not above the law and cannot choose which codes I feel like enforcing. Today's day and age is full of uneccessary litigation with everyone eager to place blame on those with the insurance to pay for their "windfall". It is therefore necessary to dot your I's and cross your T's. If you have ever been cross examined by an attorney you will understand. They can make Mother Theresa look like a hooker with their slanted swirl of spin.

How about the homeowner who put his/her hard earned money into a house that is the largest single expense of one's life? Do they not deserve to have a home that meets a MINIMUM standard? Why do we feel compelled to take it easy on an electrician who will make a profit and refuses to educate themselved on the requirements of their job?

A lot of this can be avoided by a solid plan review. It is much easier for everyone involved if the jobs are spelled out ahead of time as required. It saves reinspection fees and keeps the EC from having to pull, add or remove wiring and or devices uneccessarily.

The truth of the matter is that we don't live in a perfect world and never will so there is give and take along the way. You were an inspector for many years and I am sure that you will agree that we can fail just about any installation we want to if we nit pick and go sentence by sentence in the NEC. In fact, we pass installations every single day that have small problems because they don't meet the exact code. Since I know what it is like to bend conduit, wrestle with 750Kcmil cable, bust my knuckles changing a 25HP motor, pull wire and just about every other aspect of being an electrician, I have an appreciation for the real world and why sometimes you simply cannot meet a code and get the job done. This helps me to be a better inspector.

So yeah, we do approve things that are not compliant, we do miss things because we are human and sometimes we pay the price for it. It is necessary for me to be as vigilant as I can and verify a safe, code compliant installation for the benefit of all parties involved, including myself for my own ethics and the fact that I will probably be audited on the one property in a hundred that I chose to look the other way for an issue that did not involve safety.

This brings me back to the GFCI in the vanity light fixture. Is is code compliant? Not if the fixture is not listed and labeled for that application. Would I approve it in a real life situation? Maybe. It depends on the quality of the installation and what it looks like inside the fixture and why it was done in the first place. I won't know until I see if for myself. But when someone comes to a web forum looking for technical guidance and is asking a specific question then the truth must be told, no my personal opinions.

I truly hope that you are training electricians to be not only knowledgable contractors but code compliant and respectful businessmen and women.

Originally Posted by Roland Miller

I will quit toying with you guys. I realized now this is "your" forum.

.

It is not "our" forum anymore than it is "your" forum.

All I, and Jeff (I am sure) have been trying to do is to advise what is correct.

Your posts come in saying that (while not as bad as Richard Pultar) anything goes and the AHJ can deem anything okay, and, as long as 'what you consider common sense' applies, there is nothing wrong with it.

You've had some informative posts, those are welcomed. However, most of your posts have been trying to tell others it is okay do basically do as they want, not to worry, the AHJ will "sign off on it" anyway. THOSE posts of your are the ones which draw responses you don't like.

Instead of reading the threads. I see I should have been more specific. Read the words, not between the lines.

This will allow your filtering mechanism to discern the true meaning and intent of my posts.. Note my quote--take it to heart.

Originally Posted by Roland Miller

Instead of reading the threads. I see I should have been more specific. Read the words, not between the lines.

This will allow your filtering mechanism to discern the true meaning and intent of my posts.. Note my quote--take it to heart.

Roland: Don't take these two too seriously. They're surely both very knowledgeable, but mostly they just like to argue. The old adage, "Arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling with a pig . . . It's fun until you figure out that the pig likes it", truly fits most inspectors who have been in the business for any length of time.

Don't hold it against them and don't let them get you down. Pitch right in and argue with them. They will appreciate your verve and you will learn a lot.

Aaron

I have been learning. And if I had any feelings, they would have hurt them. I am starting to like them though.

thanks

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Roland: Don't take these two too seriously. They're surely both very knowledgeable, but mostly they just like to argue. The old adage, "Arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling with a pig . . . It's fun until you figure out that the pig likes it", truly fits most inspectors who have been in the business for any length of time.

Don't hold it against them and don't let them get you down. Pitch right in and argue with them. They will appreciate your verve and you will learn a lot.

Aaron

Aaron, I must not have been in the game long enough yet, because the last thing I like/want to do is argue with anyone regarding an inspection. The only time I have had a problem is close to the changeover from O5 NEC to 08 NEC, and that has mostly been from "contractors" who have neither bothered to order or read the 08 or heavens forbid they take a course or even order a dvd of the changes. I guess I'm too busy to have time to argue with people but maybe that will change.

Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn

I guess I'm too busy to have time to argue with people but maybe that will change.

Every time you leave that red tag ... you are arguing with them.

If you do not like a persons post all you have to do is add them to your ignore list. I have a couple on it right now, at times I take them off and then I regret that action and add them back on.

Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn

Aaron, I must not have been in the game long enough yet, because the last thing I like/want to do is argue with anyone regarding an inspection. The only time I have had a problem is close to the changeover from O5 NEC to 08 NEC, and that has mostly been from "contractors" who have neither bothered to order or read the 08 or heavens forbid they take a course or even order a dvd of the changes. I guess I'm too busy to have time to argue with people but maybe that will change.

Shannon: The real problem is, and JP alluded to this - sort of, the definition understood by most people in this country of the word "argue". Since the educational system here has been broken for decades, with the majority of the populace being educated by the television or bananas and inner tubes, many words take on a common vernacular meaning that does not represent the true definition.

To argue is to give reasons for or against something, or to reason. You simply cannot make it through the day without arguing. Period.

Even if you use the secondary definition of to contend or disagree with in words, or dispute, why does that have to accrue a negative connotation?
Because in a Republican PC society, you are being managed by the mushroom theory and dare not disagree.

The country was founded by folks who loved to argue. They saw the clash of ideas as the engine of democracy. They also considered impertinence to be democracy's best defense.

If you cannot hold your own with these guys on this forum, who arguably are on your side - sort of - sometimes - some of them, then you may have a really hard time dealing with others who do not subscribe to your wrong definition of argue.

Work on it. If you keep at it you may find that you really enjoy it. You may even someday graduate to arguing with stumps.

Jeff,

Thanks for a meaningful and lengthy response. It helps me to understand the particular situation you find yourself working in. If you are under a microscope that affects your continuing lively hood it is best not to utilize any of the judgment calls in the particular codes (AHJ, Workman like manner, etc.). And many find this is outside their particular comfort zone anyway. Should is end up in court (and don't call Jerry) it would be impossible to defend your position with a savvy lawyer asking dumb questions.

I worked at a County Building Department that was directed to accept plans drawn on the back of a napkin and I did. Or on a sticky note. Or none at all. The less detail you have the more pages the plan review. Then the permit holder was required to sign a contract with the Department stating they had received a copy of the plan review and would comply with it. It then went to inspection where the plan review was administered in the field. It actually worked quit well. Now the ones with no information would probably be anywhere fro 30 to 75 pages of plan review but it was done. Where as (that's lawyer talk) the ones with complete plans got by with one to five pages.