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Thread: Is this OK ?

  1. #1
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Is this OK ?

    Is this OK to connect wire in a panel ? I see this a lot in when a new panel is installed.

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    Ron

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Yes, as long as those wires terminate within the panel (do not extend out of the panel to someplace else).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    If you are asking if the splices are allowed the answer would be yes.

    The use of that connector that way is not.


  4. #4
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    So wires coming into the panel that are to short can have and extension added to connect to the breakers?

    Jim. what is wrong with these connectors?

    Best

    Ron


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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    So wires coming into the panel that are to short can have and extension added to connect to the breakers?
    Yes.

    Jim. what is wrong with these connectors?
    Jim is referring to the NM cables coming in through that connector in the bottom, the one *I failed to point out* ...

    Looks like it is a PVC with a lock nut and not a connector, but ... that just adds bundling and lack of maintaining spacing to the 'not secured as required' issue Jim was pointing out.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Couldn't tell if that was conduit or a cable connector. If it is conduit there are specific conditions that must be met. One of them is that the sleeve be in the top of the panel.

    If that is a cable connector most likely it is only listed for use with one cable, two at the max. The smaller connectors used are typically good for two cables.

    Jerry,
    Since PVC requires a connector called a terminal adapter to have threads it could not be as you describe.

    Also the use of sleeves does not always require derating, As far as being secured the cables just need to be secured within 12" of the open end of the sleeve.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    There is no NEC requirement for securing the NM cable because of this installation. As long as you are secured withing 4 1/2 feet of where they enter the conduit it meets the NEC requirement. It is also very unusual to require the application of any derating factors for this installation.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Since PVC requires a connector called a terminal adapter to have threads it could not be as you describe.
    Not sure what you are talking about there????

    Also the use of sleeves does not always require derating,
    If over 24" long, yes, derating is required.

    If 24" or less long, no, derating is not required.

    As far as being secured the cables just need to be secured within 12" of the open end of the sleeve.
    Panels consist of "panelboards" (the interior) and "cabinets" (the enclosure).

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.
    - - Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C).
    - - - (C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
    - - - - Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:
    - - - - - (a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.
    - - - - - (b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
    - - - - - (c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.
    - - - - - (d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.
    - - - - - (e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm ( in.).
    - - - - - (f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.
    - - - - - (g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.
    - - - - - - FPN: See Table 1 in Chapter 9, including Note 9, for allowable cable fill in circular raceways. See 310.15(B)(2)(a) for required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a common raceway.

    Being as that panel in the photo does not appear to meet the requirements in that exception, the exception does not apply, therefore, it defaults back to:
    (C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    There is no NEC requirement for securing the NM cable because of this installation. As long as you are secured withing 4 1/2 feet of where they enter the conduit it meets the NEC requirement.
    See my reply to Jim.

    It is also very unusual to require the application of any derating factors for this installation.
    Nope, not unusual at all to require it, it is in the code.

    It is, however "unusual" for that to be done, simply because that is not thought about by many inspectors, not because it is not required, it is required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    This didn't appear to be a "surface mounted" cabinet so your code reference doesn't apply.

    And yes it is unusual to require derating for dwelling units because there is no evidence that there is a problem that load diversity doesn't account for.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    This didn't appear to be a "surface mounted" cabinet so your code reference doesn't apply.
    As usual, you need to go back and re-read the code section.

    *THE EXCEPTION* only applies to surface-mounted enclosures, the *REQUIREMENT* covers *ALL* enclosures, surface mounted or flush mounted, and, with the exception not applying, the requirements stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.
    - - Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C).
    - - - (C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
    - - - - Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure ...


    Being as that panel in the photo does not appear to meet the requirements in that exception, the exception does not apply, therefore, it defaults back to:
    (C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
    Roland, for whatever reasons you have, you chose to first jump on whatever I say, THEN ... MAYBE ... read what I've actually posted.

    If you think that makes you look smart, it does exactly the opposite. Fer cryin' out loud, if the guy can't even read ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    If installed according to 334.30 your code reference doesn't apply..

    Jerry doesn't even know what a male adapter is, what kind of guy is he?? Certainly shows your lack of field experience!

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 01-28-2009 at 12:09 PM.
    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    What about the conduit fill requirement? That seems to be over 40%.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    If this is used to protect from physical damage as in article 334.30 the the conductor fill doesn't apply.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    If installed according to 334.30 your code reference doesn't apply..
    Talk about lack of knowledge and field experience, you are certainly showing your lack thereof.

    The NM cable must be secured according to 334.30 while being run from Point A to Point B, and if Point A is a panelboard enclosure (a cabinet) then the NM cable must ALSO be secured at the cabinet according to 312.5(C).

    You can't (well, okay, *you* seem to do so, however that does not make it correct) ... so I should say "You are not allowed to" ... apply ONLY WHAT YOU WANT TO.

    Jerry doesn't even know what a male adapter is, what kind of guy is he?? Certainly shows your lack of field experience!
    Roland, your last remark does not even deserve a response, so, I'm letting your ego and lack of everything else serve as that response ...

    (Sheesh, what's wrong with that guy? I like challenging questions on things I post - helps me make sure I am thinking and doing things right - that is when the poster has actually read what I posted, and the question is intelligent, but Rollyland seems to have his head up his butt and doing the hand jive on the front. Must admit that would be a feat to accomplish, just not sure why he shares it with us so much. )

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Sections of raceway that are used to protect from physical damage are not complete systems which 312 refers too. So your code section doesn't apply if this is the use.

    Adepto vestri caput capitis ex vestri ass sic vestri feet es statim sero humi. Tunc perceptum ut exsisto humanus. Is doesn't vere res ut mihi quam pessime ut tracto mihi quod alius , vos es etiam idem eadem idem dysfunctional alio.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Now dagnabit, I just got in the way of the sand that is being kicked!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Sorry about that--Have you been witnessing Jerry abuse people on this board very long?? As long as it is directed at me, I find it kind of fun, but he seems to have no boundaries..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Is this OK ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Sorry about that--Have you been witnessing Jerry abuse people on this board very long?? As long as it is directed at me, I find it kind of fun, but he seems to have no boundaries..
    Sorry Scott, I tried to block it from going in your direction.

    Guess I need that faster horse after all.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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