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  1. #1
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    Default Butt End connectors in Service panel

    I don't think I have ever come across butt end connections like this in an electrical service panel before (on the ground wires). Anyone have any issues with these?

    http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...A090130006.jpg
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  2. #2
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Not a problem if they are listed, labeled and approved for that use, especially with solid conductors like the ones in the photos.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    I'm going to disagree with Jeff. I would have concerns about how well they are grabbing a single solid wire instead of the typical stranded "automotive" wire. Plus, aren't those designed to be heat shrunk? I'm 99.9% certain they are not listed for this use. There are acceptable gounding wire crimps, but I think they are all "overlapping wire" types and none are butt to butt.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    They appear to be listed for use with 12-10 AWG wire which is correct. They also say perma seal (probably referring to the shrink wrap). Is there any other label or designation I should be looking for in this application?


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Kolar View Post
    They appear to be listed for use with 12-10 AWG wire which is correct. They also say perma seal (probably referring to the shrink wrap). Is there any other label or designation I should be looking for in this application?
    .
    They appear to be these Yellow Automotive Butt Splice Connectors.
    .
    Krimpaseal Heat Shrink Connectors

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    No, they not the krimpaseal connectors. They are made by Molex. Here is the product information link

    Datasheet

    They are UL listed (E32244), CSA (LR18689) and rated up to 600 V maximum.

    Any additional thoughts?


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    I'm going to disagree with Jeff. I would have concerns about how well they are grabbing a single solid wire instead of the typical stranded "automotive" wire. Plus, aren't those designed to be heat shrunk? I'm 99.9% certain they are not listed for this use. There are acceptable gounding wire crimps, but I think they are all "overlapping wire" types and none are butt to butt.

    I agree with Richard - these are not for that use.

    Look at the drawing in the data sheet, these are for wire sizes not associated with 'household wiring', these are for wiring sizes 22-18, 16-14, 12-10, and 8. Like you would find with stranded wiring for cars or in equipment, not solid #14, or 12 or 10.

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  8. #8
    Richard Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Many things are UL listed, but for what?

    See http://images.cableorganizer.com/per...-Permaseal.pdf

    Clearly these are designed to be heat shrunk which also allows the "adhesive to flow". I suspect that adhesive is meant to stick to insulation (not bare wire) creating a strong assembly. So, even if these were listed for use in a residential panel, they haven't been used correctly in this case.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Kolar View Post
    No, they not the krimpaseal connectors. They are made by Molex. Here is the product information link

    Datasheet

    They are UL listed (E32244), CSA (LR18689) and rated up to 600 V maximum.

    Any additional thoughts?
    .
    Your Posted Picture Shows PERMA SEAL. ( if you want to call this Automotive Product acceptable so be it.)

    * try here Terminals and Connectors, sub-section butt joint connector,section insulated nylon, item # 32760
    Welcome to Waytek Wire
    .

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 02-01-2009 at 03:47 PM. Reason: added: section insulated nylon
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    They are UL listed. I looked up the UL listing number and they would be approved for the use they are in. There is no separate UL listing within their category for household vs automotive. They are listed for the gauges given on each connector, and listed up to 600v and at a temp of 105 C.

    If they were to be used in an application and I was the AHJ I would have to pass them as they are UL listed for that application.

    This is no different than the crimp sleeves used for solid grounding conductors.

    Copper is soft enough to provide an adequate connection.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    They are UL listed. I looked up the UL listing number and they would be approved for the use they are in.
    Just because they are UL listed, and UL listed as splices, does not mean they are UL listed *for that use*.

    There are many products which are UL listed and yet are not listed for the use they are used for.

    Here is just one example:

    'Lamp cord' is UL listed, it is definitely UL listed, it is not, however, UL listed for use as permanent wiring, yet we often see it stapled in place and used for permanent wiring. Same goes for extension cords.

    Those *are not* (like Richard, I am 99.9% sure, in fact, I am even 99.94% sure) UL listed for *that use*.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    They are, even through the sub-categories of the UL directly from the UL directory. It even references the NEC. Like it or not, they are approved for use in that capacity.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    They are UL listed. I looked up the UL listing number and they would be approved for the use they are in. There is no separate UL listing within their category for household vs automotive. They are listed for the gauges given on each connector, and listed up to 600v and at a temp of 105 C.

    If they were to be used in an application and I was the AHJ I would have to pass them as they are UL listed for that application.

    This is no different than the crimp sleeves used for solid grounding conductors.

    Copper is soft enough to provide an adequate connection.
    .
    If you google perma seal electrical watek is shown as the Manufacture not Molex.
    .
    what is it's ul listing ?

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    This is no different than the crimp sleeves used for solid grounding conductors.

    Copper is soft enough to provide an adequate connection.
    1) Entirely different animals.

    2) Nope.

    Those butt connectors/splices are for automotive use: http://www.polarwire.com/page48.pdf

    Follow the pages.

    You do not "crimp connect" solid copper wire, not without proper compression connectors and compression tools which compress the connector fully around, and in 100% contact with, the conductor (which is what you are referring to) and are known as "irreversible compression-type connectors":

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
    - - Grounding electrode conductors at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).
    - - - (C) Continuous. Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint except as permitted in (1) and (2):
    - - - - (1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
    - - - - (2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.

    - 250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.
    - - The connection of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system and associated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A) and (B).
    - - - (A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode shall not be required to be accessible.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Exothermic or irreversible compression connections used at terminations, together with the mechanical means used to attach such terminations to fireproofed structural metal whether or not the mechanical means is reversible, shall not be required to be accessible.

    The above are in no way, shape or form "crimp" connectors.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    In the 'what about this' category:

    The leads from cutler hammer AFCI breakers are stranded and too short to reach the neutral bus bar when the breaker is installed on the left side. Given that is is ok to put "irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment" what do the guru's recommend for splicing inside a service panel, given the UL, gauge, volts and temperature listings?


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gross View Post
    In the 'what about this' category:

    The leads from cutler hammer AFCI breakers are stranded and too short to reach the neutral bus bar when the breaker is installed on the left side. Given that is is ok to put "irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment" what do the guru's recommend for splicing inside a service panel, given the UL, gauge, volts and temperature listings?
    Good ole fashion wire nuts


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Good ole fashion wire nuts
    Ditto.

    "Crimp" butt splices ARE NOT "irreversible compression" connectors.

    Thus they *are not approved* for the uses we are discussing nor for the use shown in the photo.

    As Ted said "wire nuts". They are approved for that exact use.

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Just to follow this up... I spoke with tech rep from manufacture and he confirmed that these connectors are for use with non solid conductors (i.e. stranded wire). Thanks for the help guys!


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    1) Entirely different animals.

    2) Nope.

    Those butt connectors/splices are for automotive use: http://www.polarwire.com/page48.pdf

    Follow the pages.

    You do not "crimp connect" solid copper wire, not without proper compression connectors and compression tools which compress the connector fully around, and in 100% contact with, the conductor (which is what you are referring to) and are known as "irreversible compression-type connectors":

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
    - - Grounding electrode conductors at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).
    - - - (C) Continuous. Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint except as permitted in (1) and (2):
    - - - - (1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
    - - - - (2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.

    - 250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.
    - - The connection of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system and associated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A) and (B).
    - - - (A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode shall not be required to be accessible.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Exothermic or irreversible compression connections used at terminations, together with the mechanical means used to attach such terminations to fireproofed structural metal whether or not the mechanical means is reversible, shall not be required to be accessible.

    The above are in no way, shape or form "crimp" connectors.
    Improper citation. The equipment grounding conductors shown spliced in the panelboard wiring space are NOT grounding electrode conductors nor are they bonding jumpers to grounding electrodes.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Just out of curiousity, anyone have an image of an "irreversible compression-type connector"? Just curious how this looks different than regular crimp connector in case I run into one someday.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Try this-- http://portal.fciconnect.com/res/en/..._Ref_Guide.pdf

    It's a large file so hopefully you have a fast connection..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Improper citation. The equipment grounding conductors shown spliced in the panelboard wiring space are NOT grounding electrode conductors nor are they bonding jumpers to grounding electrodes.

    Fred,

    That's one of the things I was pointing out to Jeff, who said "Not a problem if they are listed, labeled and approved for that use, especially with solid conductors like the ones in the photos." and "This is no different than the crimp sleeves used for solid grounding conductors.".

    Thus, as I was using it, it was the proper code reference.

    One of the other things I was pointing out to Jeff is those are not "crimp" connectors, but the ones in the code reference are "irreversible compression" connectors, and that there is a huge difference.

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Improper citation. The equipment grounding conductors shown spliced in the panelboard wiring space are NOT grounding electrode conductors nor are they bonding jumpers to grounding electrodes.
    Thanks Fred,

    I had forgotten that someone had again posted an irrelevant code reference. I saw that the other day but forgot to follow up on it.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Kolar View Post
    Just out of curiousity, anyone have an image of an "irreversible compression-type connector"? Just curious how this looks different than regular crimp connector in case I run into one someday.
    Try this too: http://portal.fciconnect.com/res/en/...-Grounding.pdf

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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    That's one of the things I was pointing out to Jeff, who said "Not a problem if they are listed, labeled and approved for that use, especially with solid conductors like the ones in the photos." and "This is no different than the crimp sleeves used for solid grounding conductors.".

    Thus, as I was using it, it was the proper code reference.

    One of the other things I was pointing out to Jeff is those are not "crimp" connectors, but the ones in the code reference are "irreversible compression" connectors, and that there is a huge difference.
    Edited to remove unprofessional content

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 02-12-2009 at 12:41 PM. Reason: inappropriate

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Spoke on the phone today with a technical engineer from UL Laboratories today concerning this particular use and its UL listing.

    In this instance, the UL listing covers the installation in question. This product was tested for both stranded and solid conductors.

    UNLESS the marking on the butt connector says SOL or STR which specifies the type of wire authorized, the lack of SOL or STR allows either one to be used.

    The limited knowledge of a manufacturer's sales rep cannot always be used to determine legal, authorized or approved methods for electrical installations.

    Most of the time, the reps are always trying to get AHJs to approve things for their own financial gain.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Good information--thanks Jeff

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Improperly citing code provisions actually does very little to bolster your side of the discussion.
    I was not "improperly citing" a code provision.

    I was citing a code provision which referenced what Jeff was referring to.

    That is not "improperly citing" code, that is using code to point out what is addressed by code with regard to what was being discussed, in this case "crimp connectors" and Jeff stated they were allowed for use, such as ... the "properly cited code reference" pointed out that not only are "crimp connectors" not being used for that, but that what Jeff was referring to was "irreversible compression connectors" - as indicated in that "properly cited code reference stating such".

    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    No, two wrongs don't make a right, however, one right can be used to point out and explain the wrong.

    All one needs to do is read what is written in the context it was used and not just read the first post, then read the code section and try to put 1 and 3 together to get 6. If you try to put 1 and three together you will not get 6, however, if you also read 2 and put 1 and 2 together, then put 3 with it, you will get 6. It is as plain and simple as that.

    1 = first post

    2 = Jeff's reply

    3 = my reply TO JEFF's post
    6

    Trying to apply 3 to 1, why on earth would you do that?

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Spoke on the phone today with a technical engineer from UL Laboratories today concerning this particular use and its UL listing.

    In this instance, the UL listing covers the installation in question. This product was tested for both stranded and solid conductors.

    UNLESS the marking on the butt connector says SOL or STR which specifies the type of wire authorized, the lack of SOL or STR allows either one to be used.

    The limited knowledge of a manufacturer's sales rep cannot always be used to determine legal, authorized or approved methods for electrical installations.

    Most of the time, the reps are always trying to get AHJs to approve things for their own financial gain.

    Actually, it is more complicated, and simpler, than that.

    First, trying to find the UL information with the part number given shows the part number as not being listed, however, a phone call to the manufacturer confirms the old part number to be as shown on the data sheet, and the UL information is listed under the old part number, not the new part number.

    That's the "more complicated" part.

    The manufacturer has confirmed that they are only rated and approved for "stranded" wire.

    That's the "and simpler" part. Waiting on an e-mail from the manufacturer regarding their information.

    The person I talked to at UL is searching some information and I am waiting for them to get back to me ... and the phone rings while typing this ... he says it is approved for stranded only for #10 and solid or stranded for #12.

    That's one of the "more complicated" parts.

    Here is the complicated kicker, though:
    The normal crimper that the electricians carry *is not allowed to be used on those*. The ONLY crimpers allowed to be used on those is either the hand or power crimp shown here:
    - hand crimper: Datasheet
    - power crimper: Datasheet

    Certainly NOT the typical Klein Multi-purpose 6-in-1, nor the 8-22, nor the 10-22 hand pliers/strippers/crimpers electricians carry.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Edited to remove unprofessional content

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 02-12-2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason: inappropriate

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Here is the complicated kicker, though:
    The normal crimper that the electricians carry *is not allowed to be used on those*. The ONLY crimpers allowed to be used on those is either the hand or power crimp shown here:
    - hand crimper: Datasheet
    - power crimper: Datasheet

    Certainly NOT the typical Klein Multi-purpose 6-in-1, nor the 8-22, nor the 10-22 hand pliers/strippers/crimpers electricians carry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Sorry, Jerry, but equipment grounding splices are not required to be irreversible, or the wirenut would be prohibited from splicing such connections.

    Fred,

    I believe you may need to take the same reading lessons Rolland needs to take.

    Go back and read what I wrote, then *show me where I stated that all grounding splices were required to be irreversible.

    Post it here and show me.

    Then to further substantiate your claim, you insist that electricians do not carry the proper crimping tool for the butt splice shown.
    Again, reading is critical, show me where I insisted that electrician do not carry proper crimping tools.

    Go back and re-read it, then post it here and show it to me.

    Either that, or like I told Rolland, we would all be much better off is you stopped, fruitlessly I might add, trying to make everything I say into a mistake - if you only tried to help and provide advice, all would be better off.

    But being able to read what is written, what is typed, to be able to type what you mean, that is important.

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    I believe you may need to take the same reading lessons Rolland needs to take.

    Go back and read what I wrote, then *show me where I stated that all grounding splices were required to be irreversible.

    Post it here and show me.
    (Jerry Peck)(1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Again, reading is critical, show me where I insisted that electrician do not carry proper crimping tools.

    Go back and re-read it, then post it here and show it to me.
    (Jerry Peck) The normal crimper that the electricians carry *is not allowed to be used on those*. The ONLY crimpers allowed to be used on those is either the hand or power crimp shown here:
    - hand crimper: Datasheet
    - power crimper: Datasheet

    Certainly NOT the typical Klein Multi-purpose 6-in-1, nor the 8-22, nor the 10-22 hand pliers/strippers/crimpers electricians carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Either that, or like I told Rolland, we would all be much better off is you stopped, fruitlessly I might add, trying to make everything I say into a mistake - if you only tried to help and provide advice, all would be better off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    But being able to read what is written, what is typed, to be able to type what you mean, that is important.


    Last edited by Fred Warner; 02-12-2009 at 12:48 PM. Reason: edited out my unprofessional remarks

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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    I would just like to say that I am finding it hard to believe that several people all with different backgrounds are misinterpreting things said by another. If only one I would call it a misunderstanding. But when several are not seeing what the speaker is saying I might have to look toward the speakers message.


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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Fred,

    As I said, it all gets back to reading and understanding what you are reading, to wit:

    I posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    1) Entirely different animals.

    2) Nope.

    Those butt connectors/splices are for automotive use: http://www.polarwire.com/page48.pdf

    Follow the pages.

    You do not "crimp connect" solid copper wire, not without proper compression connectors and compression tools which compress the connector fully around, and in 100% contact with, the conductor (which is what you are referring to) and are known as "irreversible compression-type connectors":

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
    - - Grounding electrode conductors at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).
    - - - (C) Continuous. Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint except as permitted in (1) and (2):
    - - - - (1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
    - - - - (2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.
    And you tried to turn it into this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    (Jerry Peck)(1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
    Completely different things ... you would have known that, and seen that, if ... if you had *read* my post.

    Which gets back to what I said - being able to read.

    You also said:
    Then to further substantiate your claim, you insist that electricians do not carry the proper crimping tool for the butt splice shown.
    Note the red highlighting I've added.

    Now note what I actually posted: red highlighting added
    Here is the complicated kicker, though:
    The normal crimper that the electricians carry *is not allowed to be used on those*. The ONLY crimpers allowed to be used on those is either the hand or power crimp shown here:
    - hand crimper: Datasheet
    - power crimper: Datasheet

    Certainly NOT the typical Klein Multi-purpose 6-in-1, nor the 8-22, nor the 10-22 hand pliers/strippers/crimpers electricians carry.
    As an electrician for, what did you say, 40 years?, are you telling me you DID NOT carry those TYPICAL crimpers that electricians carry?

    Oh, you did? Thought so, which means I am correct, those are the ones which electricians TYPICALLY carry, and I am also correct in stating that those WILL NOT WORK - ARE NOT APPROVED FOR - use on those fittings.

    Fred, it comes down to being able to read, and understand what you are reading, and then highlighting what is said, not what you are trying to make it say, as you did here:
    (Jerry Peck)
    The normal crimper that the electricians carry *is not allowed to be used on those*.
    The ONLY crimpers allowed to be used on those is either the hand or power crimp shown here:
    - hand crimper: Datasheet
    - power crimper: Datasheet

    Certainly NOT the typical Klein Multi-purpose 6-in-1, nor the 8-22, nor the 10-22 hand pliers/strippers/crimpers electricians carry.
    Heck you even highlighted the "normal" and "typical" parts, and you STILL did not understand it?

    After being an electrician for, what was it, 40 years?

    I believe the advice I am providing to the posters on this forum is good sound advice and that advice is to properly cite the code. It's one thing to improperly cite code on this forum but entirely another matter when one might take poor habits learned here and apply them to reports given to clients. My point is to properly cite code not to mix and match unrelated and unsubstantiated areas of the code until you think you've made your point.
    See, and I keep saying this, if you read what was posted, you would see those ARE proper code references, and they relate SPECIFICALLY to what Jeff was saying, which is what they were supposed to relate to.

    This methodology reminds me of the saying "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bulls**t."
    Which you are trying very hard to do here.

    I am not the one who "fruitlessly" makes your words into "mistakes", you are!
    Nope, all you have to do is be able to read. Good god man!

    Fred, it REALLY IS that simple.

    Read it.

    Understand it?

    Think about if you do not understand it.

    Then respond to it as it was written. Trying to tie point C to point A when point C was responding to point B is not only incorrect, and demonstrates an inability to read, but ... Good god man! ... it also shows that you are not trying to help, you are trying to hinder.

    Wake up!

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 02-05-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I would just like to say that I am finding it hard to believe that several people all with different backgrounds are misinterpreting things said by another. If only one I would call it a misunderstanding. But when several are not seeing what the speaker is saying I might have to look toward the speakers message.
    Not all are misunderstanding, just a couple, now, if only those couple would learn to read and understand what they are reading instead of taking one paragraph out and trying to apply it to something different above, those couple would no longer not understand, they would also understand and comprehend.

    Just because you are acting like bullies does not make you right.

    If you would sit down, relax, breathe deeply, and MY GOD MAN! ... r-e-a-d what is written, and r-e-a-d to what it is replying to ... you would not be misunderstanding it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Just because you are acting like bullies does not make you right.

    Holy Crap, Jerry....

    That is exactly what I've been saying for years....

    ...See the irony?


  37. #37
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    edited out inappropriate content

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 02-12-2009 at 12:51 PM. Reason: unprofessional remarks

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    I don't see how pointing out inaccuracies and mis-applications of Code articles is acting like a bully. I see it as if information is going to be given out it should be correct. Not just talk over a persons head because they don't know any better. I will not be one of the crowd telling the emperor how wonderful their clothes are when there are no clothes.

    Sometimes people with an understanding of a subject will be able to see things that a person less versed in that subject will not. Kind of like nodding in a conversation. You may not know enough to counter what you have heard, but continue listening. Later you ask someone about that subject and get a deeper understanding. If I happened to hear a bunch of doctors talking about a procedure I may not know if something was said that was wrong. However, one of the other doctors might pick up on it.

    There are also book smart people that can explain things but when asked to perform the task in the field they would be lost. Kind of like an architect drawing something on paper, but couldn't figure out how to get the pipe around all the obstacles in the field. Conversely, there are people that can do the work but can't explain the therory behind it.

    I have seen enough HI reports that have made me shake my head and wonder how they got their information. Now I am starting to see.


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Holy Crap, Jerry....

    That is exactly what I've been saying for years....

    ...See the irony?
    Dom,

    I know you've been acting that way for years, that's the irony of it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  40. #40
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Fred,

    What you are missing is that it is I who is trying to get us to work together and be more helpful, and it is you who is consistently trying to create friction and not work together and be disruptive.

    Regardless how you try to turn that around, that is what is and has been going on.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  41. #41
    Kerry Nobbs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Wow I have been on this forum for what 5 - 6 days? Amazing how many pissing matches have been on here in that time frame. Nice to be able to hide behind that screen and have loose fingers.

    The amount of professionalism shown here is a prime example of the manner in which the profession works on the outside.

    Not sure I wish to participate in this as, to me as a newcomber, it is a bit of a hack job on any one asking a question.

    Sorry but the chest pounding is not helpful in any of these discussions and questions. I do believe that the only stupid question is the one not asked especially for those learning. That goes with finding something that is new and asking about it. It would be refreshing to see one lousey question on here that was answered in a dignified and professional manner.

    A difference of opinion is one thing, some of this something entirely different.

    I did find this initial question interesting because I had found something similar. I was able to find the information on my own and have the situation corrected but come on a simple question?


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Kerry,

    Stick around, it is not usually like this.

    Usually more informational and less combativeness.

    Hope you hang around here a long time.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  43. #43
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Oh dear, oh my, stick a freaking needle in my eye.

    I guess I just have to say to all.

    KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID

    This is what I debate all the time. I know it is wonderful to learn everyday of my life and to try to communicate with the world in a somewhat intelligent manner but seriously. I see more and more everyday the fact that one should

    KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Nobbs View Post
    Wow I have been on this forum for what 5 - 6 days? Amazing how many pissing matches have been on here in that time frame. Nice to be able to hide behind that screen and have loose fingers.

    The amount of professionalism shown here is a prime example of the manner in which the profession works on the outside.

    Not sure I wish to participate in this as, to me as a newcomber, it is a bit of a hack job on any one asking a question.

    Sorry but the chest pounding is not helpful in any of these discussions and questions. I do believe that the only stupid question is the one not asked especially for those learning. That goes with finding something that is new and asking about it. It would be refreshing to see one lousey question on here that was answered in a dignified and professional manner.

    A difference of opinion is one thing, some of this something entirely different.

    I did find this initial question interesting because I had found something similar. I was able to find the information on my own and have the situation corrected but come on a simple question?
    .
    Kerry,

    Andrew started the thread and his question was properly answered in Post #'s 3-5-7-8-9-10 and 11.

    The Correct responses were disputed ( It is an open board ) we learn from each other.

    Andrew confirmed These Correct Responses in Post # 18
    ( The Manufacture Stated the connectors were not made for this application. )

    Personality differences & Code interpretation is the balance.
    * sometimes Democracy is not pretty.

    If you know of or find a better Home Inspector learning sight let me know.

    If you wish to learn and exchange ideas ( be prepared to back up what you say )
    stick around.

    If not it's both our Loss.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  45. #45
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    deleted

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 02-05-2009 at 08:11 PM.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    No code issues that I am aware of. Also, they appear to be bare ground wire splices, which makes them more innocuous.


  47. #47
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Perhaps it's time to re-name the thread "Inspectors butt heads over connectors in service panel"?


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Locurcio View Post
    No code issues that I am aware of. Also, they appear to be bare ground wire splices, which makes them more innocuous.
    This is from the manufacturer, confirming they are NOT approved for solid conductors (not even when using that special crimper).

    The first attachment is his e-mail.

    The second attachment is the engineering drawing sheet.

    The third attachment is of his computer screen showing the database and that it is only for "stranded" conductors.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  49. #49
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Thank you for the clarification. I am concerned that we received conflicting information directly from UL. In my opinion, the markings are insufficient and need to specify STR vs not having any marking stating STR or SOL.

    So in this case, with the information provided (in writing) from the manufacturer direct, it is apparent that these connectors are not approved for the application they are in because they are being used on solid conductors.

    Due to this updated information, I must retract my previous position that was based on a conversation with one of the UL engineers.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Butt End connectors in Service panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    I am concerned that we received conflicting information directly from UL.

    Jeff,

    Same here as UL told me, after doing some research and calling me back, that those were approved for solid or stranded for #12 and stranded only for #10.

    Yet the manufacturer states 'Nope, stranded only', and provides documentation to back it up.

    Certainly does make it confusing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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