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  1. #1
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    Default Automatic Gate Opener

    Quick question regarding electrical.

    Here's the setup:

    1. Exterior automatic gate opener for a driveway
    2. Wired back to panel which goes to ground
    3. The motor is bolted to a steel frame on which the support pole is in the ground about 24"

    Is this sufficiently bonded?
    Is a GFCI breaker required?

    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Not a real clear picture. An equipment grounding conductor is required to be pulled with the branch circuit.

    It may need to be GFCI protected depending on the burial depth based on 300.5.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  3. #3
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    How do you known its in the ground 24'?

    How far away from the panel is the gate?

    Can you see the panel from the gate?

    Best

    Ron


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Not a real clear picture. An equipment grounding conductor is required to be pulled with the branch circuit.

    It may need to be GFCI protected depending on the burial depth based on 300.5.
    I don't have the clear picture either. It is being described to me by someone else.

    The grounding conductor was pulled and connected properly within the panel enclosure.

    Thanks for the 300.5 ref. I'll check it out.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    If it is on a duplex outlet, it needs GFCI. Hard wired, maybe not.
    I know of no bonding requirement for the gate or fence unless near a pool, but not a bad idea.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    How do you known its in the ground 24'?
    Owner observed it being installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    How far away from the panel is the gate?
    60 ft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Can you see the panel from the gate?

    Best

    Ron
    I don't know

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    If it is on a duplex outlet, it needs GFCI. Hard wired, maybe not.
    I know of no bonding requirement for the gate or fence unless near a pool, but not a bad idea.
    Hard wired

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    It may need to be GFCI protected depending on the burial depth based on 300.5.
    Roland,

    Post the 300.5 code reference stating said requirement.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Hopefully the attachment is here

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    I'm having trouble seeing it. Are those requirements for GFCI?

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    I apologize--I just upgraded to office 07 and the scan function is not working so I had to cut and paste. Jerry --would you post the table 300.5 since you have the software??

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    It does not lay the table out properly to copy and paste.

    Here is a screen capture of the table.

    It took me a while to figure out what you were referring to, but you are referring to the reduction in burial depth allowed with GFCI protection on residential branch circuits.

    Column 4 is what Roland is referring to.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Thanks--I think I got my scanner running..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    If I'm reading that right...it is saying that the assumption is that GFCI is required and the wire should be buried at 12" (the only applicable one for my situation).

    So...currently, this is not GFCI protected. I'm still confused if that is required. We'd have to install a GFCI breaker.

    What about the bonding? Any ideas there?

    Thanks for the posts.

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Lets see if this is clear.. You need Adobe Reader and you should be all set..

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 02-04-2009 at 09:07 PM. Reason: more
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Are you asking about bonding the metal gate itself? Only the motor frame is required to be bonded.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Are you asking about bonding the metal gate itself? Only the motor frame is required to be bonded.
    I'm asking if the motor being bolted to the steel frame is adequate.

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    I'm asking if the motor being bolted to the steel frame is adequate.
    No. The motor must be grounded with the equipment grounding conductor in with the circuit conductors.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    The motor bolted to the steel frame is enough. There is actually no code requirement to bond the gate. There may be a manufacturers requirement to bond the gate. You may have to contact them..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    If I'm reading that right...it is saying that the assumption is that GFCI is required and the wire should be buried at 12" (the only applicable one for my situation).

    So...currently, this is not GFCI protected. I'm still confused if that is required. We'd have to install a GFCI breaker.
    No, that table is saying that, without GFCI protection, you need to follow the depths shown in Columns 1, 2, or 3 as applicable to the wiring method used. It is also saying that if you have GFCI protection installed, you can take advantage of a reduction in depth as shown in Column 4.

    That means that if direct burial cable was used, the burial depth is (All locations not specified below) 24", however, let's say they buried the cable 18" deep (such as it was planned to use PVC with a depth of 18") - BIG OOPS! - but, if GFCI protection is installed, that cable now only requires being buried 12", thus it is now okay.

    Yes, Column 4 can be used "to plan" a lesser depth, but it is most frequently used to 'correct for' an unplanned lesser depth for direct buried cable.

    After all, why use it to get to 12" if you used a method in Column 2 which only required 6" depth? There is no reduction in depth there.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Are you asking about bonding the metal gate itself? Only the motor frame is required to be bonded.

    "Grounded", not "bonded"

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No. The motor must be grounded with the equipment grounding conductor in with the circuit conductors.
    Sorry I'm dense. Grounding aside... the motor does not have to be bonded such as pool pump motors do?

    The motor is wired with a grounding conductor that travels to the panel and thus to the driven copper rod.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Sorry I'm dense. Grounding aside... the motor does not have to be bonded such as pool pump motors do?
    That's what I thought you were talking about - no.

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Well Jerry here we go--The NEC doesn't use the term grounded in regard to the motor. It uses bonded and connected, avoiding the use of the term grounded. 250.102, 250.8, 250.110 250.112, 250.119 and 250.148. About as close as they get is calling it bonded and connected.. So the motor is (according to the NEC) "bonded" to the equipment grounding conductor. So Bonded is a more correct term according to the NEC..

    Last edited by Roland Miller; 02-04-2009 at 09:57 PM. Reason: edits
    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Well Jerry here we go--The NEC doesn't use the term grounded in regard to the motor. It uses bonded and connected, avoiding the use of the term grounded. 250.102, 250.8, 250.110 250.112, 250.119 and 250.148. About as close as they get is calling it bonded and connected.. So the motor is (according to the NEC) "bonded" to the equipment grounding conductor. So Bonded is a more correct term according to the NEC..
    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - VI. Equipment Grounding and Equipment Grounding Conductors
    - - 250.112 Fastened in Place or Connected by Permanent Wiring Methods (Fixed) Specific.
    - - - (C) Motor Frames. Motor frames, as provided by 430.242.
    - - - (D) Enclosures for Motor Controllers. Enclosures for motor controllers unless attached to ungrounded portable equipment.

    - 430.242 Stationary Motors.
    - - The frames of stationary motors shall be grounded under any of the following conditions:
    - - - (1) Where supplied by metal-enclosed wiring
    - - - (2) Where in a wet location and not isolated or guarded
    - - - (3) If in a hazardous (classified) location
    - - - (4) If the motor operates with any terminal at over 150 volts to ground
    - - Where the frame of the motor is not grounded, it shall be permanently and effectively insulated from the ground.

    Roland,

    There sure are a lot of "grounded", "grounding", and "ground" terms in there regarding those motors.

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  26. #26
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Also check the manufacturer's installation instructions for the requirement of a ground rod. Some require this:

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Yup--Jerry --it will be confusing until you learn to read English.. Grounded is the (past tense) end result of bonding (present continuous tense) and connecting which I was refering to.

    If you want people to think you know what you are talking about you need to learn to speak the language.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Yup--Jerry --it will be confusing until you learn to read English.. Grounded is the (past tense) end result of bonding (present continuous tense) and connecting which I was referring to.

    If you want people to think you know what you are talking about you need to learn to speak the language.

    Yup--Roland--it will be confusing until you learn to read ... period.

    That reference stated "groundED", "ground", and "groundING".

    We were talking about "ground", "groundED" and "groundING", and you came up with
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Are you asking about bonding the metal gate itself? Only the motor frame is required to be bonded.
    I know where YOUR confusion came into play, the original poster stated: (underlining is mine)
    Here's the setup:
    1. Exterior automatic gate opener for a driveway
    2. Wired back to panel which goes to ground
    3. The motor is bolted to a steel frame on which the support pole is in the ground about 24"
    Is this sufficiently bonded?
    The correct answer is: Yes, it is "groundED", it is REQUIRED to be "groundED", that is done through the "groundING" conductor, and, no, "groundED" and "bonded" are not the same thing.

    You post here ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    The motor bolted to the steel frame is enough. There is actually no code requirement to bond the gate. There may be a manufacturers requirement to bond the gate. You may have to contact them..
    ... tried to make that connection and correction, but you had already confused yourself with your previous post.

    Then you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    Well Jerry here we go--The NEC doesn't use the term grounded in regard to the motor. It uses bonded and connected, avoiding the use of the term grounded. 250.102, 250.8, 250.110 250.112, 250.119 and 250.148. About as close as they get is calling it bonded and connected.. So the motor is (according to the NEC) "bonded" to the equipment grounding conductor. So Bonded is a more correct term according to the NEC..
    Which I posted the code to show you that, yes indeed, the code does use the term "groundED" in regard to the motor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 430.242 Stationary Motors.
    - - The frames of stationary motors shall be grounded under any of the following conditions:
    - - - (1) Where supplied by metal-enclosed wiring
    - - - (2) Where in a wet location and not isolated or guarded
    - - - (3) If in a hazardous (classified) location
    - - - (4) If the motor operates with any terminal at over 150 volts to ground
    - - Where the frame of the motor is not grounded, it shall be permanently and effectively insulated from the ground.
    Roland,

    Instead of trying, fruitlessly I might add, to always try to find something wrong with what I post and actually spend your efforts to try to help, your efforts would not make you look so incompetent. But trying to say you meant one thing, when you said something else, then pointing to something I said and trying to say it makes no sense, when *you said "The NEC doesn't use the term grounded in regard to the motor." and the NEC clearly does, as I pointed out "The frames of stationary motors shall be grounded " ...


    Well, the exchanges between the two of us would no longer hinder what is being done here, as I am sure most think they are.

    Learn to read, learn to type, learn to read what you type, learn to read what I type - it really is that simple - I know you can do it.

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  29. #29
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    Learn to read, learn to type, learn to read what you type, learn to read what I type - it really is that simple - I know you can do it.
    Roland: I believe you have been earthed.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    I was hoping for bonding

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Automatic Gate Opener

    I'm not into bondage.

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