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  1. #1
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    Default Service Panel Location

    This service panel is in a commercial building, I have not seen one located in a bathroom like this before. Any thoughts, direct violations, recommendations, etc.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    IT is NEC compliant

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    I guess its a good way to signal someone that you are stranded.

    Dylan Whitehead

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Yup--In this day it is probably not a very good choice to locate it in a bathroom, especially is there is general public access. But there is no code citation to prevent it..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Thanks for the info. They are wanting to use this building as a church and this would be one of their public restrooms.

    Dylan Whitehead

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Is this service equipment or a subpanel?

    Service disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms, 230.70(2), 2008.


  7. #7
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    This service panel is in a commercial building, I have not seen one located in a bathroom like this before. Any thoughts, direct violations, recommendations, etc.
    Looks like a remote panel. If so, 230.70(A)(2) won't apply.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    IT is NEC compliant
    .

    I'm not so sure that the location in a bathroom, which is locked and inaccessible to others when in use meets the requirements underlined in the code section below.

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
    - - (B) Occupancy. Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy, unless otherwise permitted in 240.24(B)(1) and (B)(2).
    - - - (1) Service and Feeder Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service overcurrent devices and feeder overcurrent devices supplying more than one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel in the following:
    - - - - (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings
    - - - - (2) Guest rooms or guest suites
    - - - (2) Branch-Circuit Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the branch-circuit overcurrent devices supplying any guest rooms or guest suites without permanent provisions for cooking shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel.

    The term "ready access" is not defined in the definitions, however, ...
    - ARTICLE 100 Definitions
    - - Scope. This article contains only those definitions essential to the proper application of this Code. It is not intended to include commonly defined general terms or commonly defined technical terms from related codes and standards. In general, only those terms that are used in two or more articles are defined in Article 100. Other definitions are included in the article in which they are used but may be referenced in Article 100.
    - - Part I of this article contains definitions intended to apply wherever the terms are used throughout this Code. Part II contains definitions applicable only to the parts of articles specifically covering installations and equipment operating at over 600 volts, nominal.

    (bold is mine)
    Main Entry: 1ready
    Pronunciation: \ˈre-dē\
    Function: adjective
    Inflected Form(s): read·i·er; read·i·est
    Etymology: Middle English redy; akin to Old English gerǣde ready, Gothic garaiths arranged
    Date: 13th century
    1 a: prepared mentally or physically for some experience or action b: prepared for immediate use <dinner is ready>
    2 a: willingly disposed : inclined <ready to agree to his proposal> b: likely to do something indicated <a house that looks ready to collapse>
    3: displayed readily and spontaneously <a ready wit>
    4: immediately available <had ready cash>

    A very good and sustainable argument could be made that the overcurrent protection devices in that panel DO NOT HAVE "ready access".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Jerry: The term "accessible, readily" is located in the definitions. It states:" capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspections........."
    I think what is shown is really a "bathroom" as per the definition in the NEC because it has a basin and a toilet. But without the inclusion of a bathtub, it seems unlikely that the bathroom would be occupied for periods of time that would mean the duration was not "quickly".

    Maintenance people could knock on the door and gain entrance quickly.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    I'm not so sure that the location in a bathroom, which is locked and inaccessible to others when in use meets the requirements underlined in the code section below.

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
    - - (B) Occupancy. Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy, unless otherwise permitted in 240.24(B)(1) and (B)(2).
    - - - (1) Service and Feeder Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service overcurrent devices and feeder overcurrent devices supplying more than one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel in the following:
    - - - - (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings
    - - - - (2) Guest rooms or guest suites
    - - - (2) Branch-Circuit Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the branch-circuit overcurrent devices supplying any guest rooms or guest suites without permanent provisions for cooking shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel.

    The term "ready access" is not defined in the definitions, however, ...
    - ARTICLE 100 Definitions
    - - Scope. This article contains only those definitions essential to the proper application of this Code. It is not intended to include commonly defined general terms or commonly defined technical terms from related codes and standards. In general, only those terms that are used in two or more articles are defined in Article 100. Other definitions are included in the article in which they are used but may be referenced in Article 100.
    - - Part I of this article contains definitions intended to apply wherever the terms are used throughout this Code. Part II contains definitions applicable only to the parts of articles specifically covering installations and equipment operating at over 600 volts, nominal.

    (bold is mine)
    Main Entry: 1ready
    Pronunciation: \ˈre-dē\
    Function: adjective
    Inflected Form(s): read·i·er; read·i·est
    Etymology: Middle English redy; akin to Old English gerę̄de ready, Gothic garaiths arranged
    Date: 13th century
    1 a: prepared mentally or physically for some experience or action b: prepared for immediate use <dinner is ready>
    2 a: willingly disposed : inclined <ready to agree to his proposal> b: likely to do something indicated <a house that looks ready to collapse>
    3: displayed readily and spontaneously <a ready wit>
    4: immediately available <had ready cash>

    A very good and sustainable argument could be made that the overcurrent protection devices in that panel DO NOT HAVE "ready access".
    The lease holder would have access to their overcurrent devices. They would not have to go through another occupant space or have it behind a locked door.

    Readily accesible IS defined in Article 100. "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

    I certainly think that opening a bathroom door would meet those qualifications.


  11. #11
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Isn't there something about running water. Not just pipes going thru a room but a confined space with running water.

    Thought I wrote something up once or twice or thrice for that. I will look it up again. Faucet going bad. Toilet fill line popping a leak, something. I also did a tremendous amount of commercial work and it was never allowed. Hmm, written some where.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Jerry: The term "accessible, readily" is located in the definitions. It states:" capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspections........."
    Yes but ... that is not the term which is used in that code section, "ready access" was the term and the term not defined, however, I understand what you are saying about the 'potential' for a relationship between the two 'similar' terms.

    Be that as it may ...

    I think what is shown is really a "bathroom" as per the definition in the NEC because it has a basin and a toilet. But without the inclusion of a bathtub, it seems unlikely that the bathroom would be occupied for periods of time that would mean the duration was not "quickly".

    Maintenance people could knock on the door and gain entrance quickly.
    Not if it was "in use".

    Which is precisely why it is a bad idea and does not, in any reasonable meaning of "ready access" met the need for "ready" "access".

    Now, *if* that were a multiple stall bathroom, and yes it is a "bathroom" by NEC definition, then what I am addressing would not be a problem, provided it were not located in a stall (especially considering that the only stall which would be large enough for the panel and its required working space would be a handicap accessible stall, in which case you get back to there not being "ready" "access" to it.

    That bathroom is a handicap accessible bathroom, at least at first appearances, and expecting fully functional person to person to be able to GET THE HECK OUT NOW! IT'S AN EMERGENCY! is totally unreasonable, let alone a person who is handicapped and is not able to maneuver as readily and quickly as a fully functional person - I can just see a handicapped person in that stall, with their wheelchair trying to simply maneuver around to and from the toilet and wheelchair, and than someone starts banging on the door demanding they GET THE HECK OUT NOW! IT'S AN EMERGENCY! - it just IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    "Ready access" ... not a chance when it is "in use". And that condition of when "in use" simply makes it not "ready access" and that panelboard should not be in there.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 02-16-2009 at 09:53 AM. Reason: speelin' :-)
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The lease holder would have access to their overcurrent devices. They would not have to go through another occupant space or have it behind a locked door.
    Ahh ... see the difference?

    You just said "lease holder would have access" and the code requires "READY access", not just "access".

    Readily accesible IS defined in Article 100. "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.
    As I pointed out to Fred, that *is not* the term in the code nor under discussion. The term used in the code is *READY ACCESS*, not "readily accessible". And "ready access" is being discussed, and it is an undefined term.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location



    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ahh ... see the difference?

    You just said "lease holder would have access" and the code requires "READY access", not just "access".
    And you think that opening a door is too much to ask? This would be no different if it were in an electrical closet.

    Readily accessible uses ready access in its definition. I think most people would say that that panel had ready access.

    Maybe that panel shouldn't be there at all. After all someone could store their reading material on the floor.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    And you think that opening a door is too much to ask? This would be no different if it were in an electrical closet.
    Except that someone is not in there "using" the electrical closet to take a leak or crap in ... okay, I take that back, maybe that goes on in your buildings, but not mine ...

    Readily accessible uses ready access in its definition. I think most people would say that that panel had ready access.
    Agreed, I know it does, so ... what does that make "ready access" mean?

    See the problem? The term "ready access" is used in the code, in fact it is used to help define another term, and it is undefined.

    That's like defining "too fast" as "not slow enough" - what does that mean?

    Many, many, many ... too many many to consider here, let's just state that I was a teenager then ... I was flying low down a road when a car ran a stop sign in front of me, her car was totaled, the car I was driving suffered very little damage from hitting her car, however, after bouncing off her I wrapped the back end around a telephone pole.

    She was charged with "failure to stop", I was charged with "exceeding a safe speed". The judge quizzed the cop trying to get a definition of "exceeding a safe speed". The judge asked the cop if, perchance, he was driving down the road at 5 mph and someone stepped out in front of him, was that "exceeding a safe speed", the answer was "yes", to which the judge replied, "but I was well within the posted speed limit, correct?", the answer, of course, was "correct". You can see the outcome now, how could the cop charge me for the same thing, with no evidence that I was exceeding the posted speed limit - case dismissed.

    Maybe that panel shouldn't be there at all. After all someone could store their reading material on the floor.
    Maybe the building should not be there at all, heck, someday it just might burn down.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    How many times have you ever seen a need to shut off the power and the restroom was occupied? You have what iffed this thing way more than necessary, but I would expect no less.

    Heck it could still be shut off from the main if it was that important.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Jerry Peck says: "As I pointed out to Fred, that *is not* the term in the code nor under discussion. The term used in the code is *READY ACCESS*, not "readily accessible". And "ready access" is being discussed, and it is an undefined term."
    __________________

    Ready Access = nobody peeing
    Readily Accessible = "I'll be done peeing in a few seconds."




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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    How many times have you ever seen a need to shut off the power and the restroom was occupied?
    Haven't ... but that is because you simply don't put the panels in there. Well, okay, THAT electrician did.

    Your question is fundamentally flawed, though. Your question should be "How many times have you ever seen a need to ... "" ... shut off the power and work on things right away?"

    Enough that the NEC recognizes the need for "ready access".

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Jerry Peck says: "As I pointed out to Fred, that *is not* the term in the code nor under discussion. The term used in the code is *READY ACCESS*, not "readily accessible". And "ready access" is being discussed, and it is an undefined term."
    __________________

    Ready Access = nobody peeing
    Readily Accessible = "I'll be done peeing in a few seconds."

    Ready Access = nobody peeing, because the panel is not in the bathroom

    Readily Accessible = Holy $hit you people, I start got on this thing to take a crap, and now you want me to move back to my wheel chair and GET TO HECK out of here? You guys are out of your friggin' minds. When I do get out of here, I am going straight to my ADA specialist attorney to wipe your arses with your crap. We will see just how long it takes you to yank that friggin' panel out and stick it up your arse while you carry it to some new location! Cha-Ching! $$$$$

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 02-16-2009 at 09:54 AM. Reason: speelin' :-)
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  21. #21
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ready Access = nobody peeing, because the panel is not in the bathroom

    Readily Accessible = Holy $hit you people, I start got on this thing to take a crap, and now you want me to move back to my wheel chair and GET TO F**K out of here? You guys are out of your friggin' minds. When I do get out of here, I am going straight to my ADA specialist attorney to wipe your arses with your crap. We will see just how long it takes you to yank that friggin' panel out and stick it up your arse while you carry it to some new location! Cha-Ching! $$$$$

    Jerry

    Meds

    Meds

    Meds

    We must maintain control

    We must maintain control

    We must control the maintain

    We contain the control at the main


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    We contain the control at the main

    Ted,

    Ted,

    Ted,

    Ted, shutting down the entire facility is not an option. Those patients on dialysis ... and those on ... and that person running the machine which ...

    Shutting down the entire facility is not an option.

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  23. #23
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ted,

    Ted,

    Ted,

    Ted, shutting down the entire facility is not an option. Those patients on dialysis ... and those on ... and that person running the machine which ...

    Shutting down the entire facility is not an option.
    Jery

    Jerry

    Jury

    I am the one that said it should not be in there anyway


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I am the one that said it should not be in there anyway

    Then why do you keep arguing about it?

    Just because ... ?

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  25. #25
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    The verb transient of "Access" is to gain or have access to. As a noun, it's a way or means of approaching. "Accessible" is an adjective defining "that which can be approached or entered"."Readily" is an adverb meaning "without delay, quickly". "Ready" is formed from modern english derived from olden english and "readily" is modern english formed from adding "ly" an old english suffix to add specificity. Adding "ly" to ready i.e., "readily" is like adding mere"ly" to mere, akin to adding "happily" to "happy".

    The NEC has three variables derived from the word "accessible". The word "accessible" as applied to equipment has to do with admitting close approach and not being guarded by locked doors, etc.This can be effectively seen as a swimming pool disconnect being visible, but behind a locked chain-link fence which would be a dangerous violation. The 2nd "accessible" is as applied to wiring methods, and means capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure.This evokes images of buried J-boxes to me. The 3rd meaning is capable of being reached quickly....and "quickly" goes back to "readily" meaning "without delay, quickly". Quickly, connotes "promptness of action".

    If a maintenance person can promptly gain access to the overcurrent protective devices in a bathroom in a church, I think that's fine. The NEC prohibits OCPD's from being located in bathrooms in dwellings and guest rooms and suites of hotels and motels to minimize the hazards associated with nude people (bare-footed on conductive tile floors) tampering with electrical panels. It can be inferred that the NEC also recognizes the improbability of nude people or even bare-footed people in church bathrooms since it does not prohibit non-service related equipment to be located within bathrooms.



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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    ..."Readily" is an adverb meaning "without delay, quickly". ...
    I think of readily as " In a manner indicating or connoting ease; easily". which I lifted from an online dictionary. Admittedly, it wasn't the first definition.

    Here's how I use it: The main roof was not readily accessible, on account of the fact that I don't have a frickin' helicopter to get to the four story flat roof!

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    I think of readily as " In a manner indicating or connoting ease; easily". which I lifted from an online dictionary. Admittedly, it wasn't the first definition.

    Here's how I use it: The main roof was not readily accessible, on account of the fact that I don't have a frickin' helicopter to get to the four story flat roof!
    As I headed for the helicopter to assist me in gaining ready access to the 4th story flat roof (which was not readily accessible), I was hampered by a lock on the fence surrounding the heli-pad. After obtaining a key, which incidentally, felt like an eternity, I then had to find a key to the helicopter door. After I got that key, the pilot's seat was full of paperwork, flight maps, etc., so that was not even readily accessible. It took a few moments to clear the seat....to make it accessible.....then I was on my way. Phew!!!



  28. #28
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Let's not confuse 'design' with 'desire.'

    I have absolutely no problem with the panel being inside an occupied locked stall, a locked room, with a chain and padlock keeping a fused disconnect in the 'on' position, or even within a bank vault.

    Commercial and industrial locations ... anyone doubting the 'commercial' aspect of churches truly is a believer .... can have such things secured, and accessible only to qualified individuals.

    More to the point ... lock it up all you want, and the overcurrent devices will still work.

    The NEC definition of readily accessible refers to having to dismantle things, or to fetch a ladder. Simply turning a knob and opening a door does not make it any less readily accessible.

    Indeed, there is one thing I like about this particular arrangement: no one is likely to pile boxes, park the mop & bucket, or otherwise obstruct access.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Let's not confuse 'design' with 'desire.'

    I have absolutely no problem with the panel being inside an occupied locked stall, a locked room, with a chain and padlock keeping a fused disconnect in the 'on' position, or even within a bank vault.

    Commercial and industrial locations ... anyone doubting the 'commercial' aspect of churches truly is a believer .... can have such things secured, and accessible only to qualified individuals.

    More to the point ... lock it up all you want, and the overcurrent devices will still work.
    I do not have a problem with the above either, and, in fact, if under continuous qualified supervision, that is allowed, even recommended, however ...

    ... in the above cases, the qualified supervision has the keys and ready access (as differentiated from being readily accessible, which, for some reason, keeps getting mixed up between the two), whereas ...

    ... whereas even the qualified supervision personnel does not have ready access to that panel in that bathroom when it is occupied and in use.

    As I said above, in a more-than-one-stall bathroom and it not in a stall, no problem, the bathroom door does not get locked and there would be ready access to a panel located in such a location.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    The qualified maintenance person may be at the other end of the facility. Does this make them ready access?


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The qualified maintenance person may be at the other end of the facility. Does this make them ready access?

    It does when they get there with their key for the locked electrical room.

    Not when they get there with their key and the bathroom is locked and in use.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    You did not address the time delay in travelling from the far end of the facility or the issue that they might be engaged in another task.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    You did not address the time delay in travelling from the far end of the facility or the issue that they might be engaged in another task.
    Actually, I did. I've underlined the key to you response above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It does when they get there with their key for the locked electrical room.

    Not when they get there with their key and the bathroom is locked and in use.

    What matter is that, when they get their with their key (for that locked door), that there is "ready access".

    Now, the bold part above addresses the rest of the answer. See, the locked electrical room is locked to keep others out, to only allow access by qualified personnel, whereas the locked bathroom keeps THEM out.

    The qualified personnel have "ready access" to the locked electrical room.

    The personnel, qualified or otherwise, DO NOT have "ready access to the locked bathroom when it is in use.

    Which gets back to what I've said before, make it a multi-stall bathroom where the panel is not located in a stall and there is no problem. It is allowed in "bathrooms" in non-dwelling units, the problem is not "the bathroom", the problem is the "locked single person use" bathroom (okay, single person or married person, that does not matter).

    "The time to get there" is not the issue, the fact that "once the qualified personnel get there" and they do not have "ready access" is the issue.

    I've worked in large manufacturing plants before, there were "maintenance workers", i.e., not as in "janitorial workers", but plumbers, electricians, etc., all over the plant. There were emergency shut-offs at all locations for the major manufacturing equipment, and centrally located panels at centrally located locations (if you can follow through what may seem like double speak but is not, not in a large plant). If there was immediate problem, there was always a very large red button labeled "Emergency Shut Off" at all equipment, shutting off the equipment shuts down the current flow which *may* have been causing a problem. Whenever an Emergency Shut Off was pushed, it set off alarms throughout the plant and everyone converged on that location to see why it was shut down. I worked in Standards Lab calibrating oscilloscopes and other things, regardless, all Maintenance personnel and all Standards Lab personnel responded, after the problem was sorted out, those persons not needed went back to what they were doing before the alarm. It was rare that I was needed.

    This was 40 years ago, I am sure that things have improved over that time.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Originally titled service panel location. Not allowed in bathroom.

    Accessible defined as is isolated. Should be secured from public access and unqualified as long as during all periods of attended occupancy a keyholder is present Cabinet and panel does not belong in bathroom unprotected face not separated by wall from toilet and sink locations in photo.

    Location isn't dry location (defined), toilets spray when flushed. Cabinet, panel and contents not damp or wet location equipment.

    No label warning to unqualified persons on exterior and no lock or bolts preventing general public and unqualified persons from gaining entry.

    30 inches width minimum work space dead front panel not panel width violated obviously by toilet paper holder and hand rail, likely fixture space as well. Plumbing Code violation proximity to toilet footprint and panel board/cabinet.

    Power panel has serious article 110 issues of unammended NEC.
    Other Building Codes and Occupancy Codes also prohibit this location. Public area access and protections different access restrictions than RESIDENTIAL not the same building codes.

    Toilet plus sink qualifies as a bathroom.

    Could be more specific with better resolution and closeup so it could be read and identified.

    Location, location. Confirm Codes and ammendments in force with the local zoning department and local AHJ.

    Call out location document express concern and defer to AHJ and C of O for special use zoning approvals (churches require them in most jurisdictions, esp. those that rely on property tax funding since churches don't pay them, and in special development districts that rely on sales/use taxes generated by commercial spaces to repay development expenses)

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-15-2009 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Location isn't dry toilets spray when flushed.
    Agreed. Research has shown that toilet 'spray' when flushed to about 3 feet out from their center (about a 6 foot diameter circle).

    30 inches minimum work space dead front panel not panel width violated obviously by toilet paper holder likely toilet front as well.
    Nope, toilet paper holder is just off to the right side, at least it looks that way to me.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Agreed. Research has shown that toilet 'spray' when flushed to about 3 feet out from their center (about a 6 foot diameter circle).



    Nope, toilet paper holder is just off to the right side, at least it looks that way to me.
    Nope, panel is less than 30" wide 30" is the minimum rule panel width or 30" whichever is greater, see article 110 of the NEC. Cabinet door swings open to L, nothing allowed to encroach work zone 30" to R of that along that wall from floor up.

    Also wood wall cabinet with 45 face overhangs headroom over toilet bowl - violation plumbing and building codes. lav and lav cabinet too close to toilet encroaching on space requirements for toilet under building and plumbing codes and ADA rules for toilet access. lav cabinet also encroaches on use space rules to the bowl/seat itself esp. with toilet so close to wall - another ADA access violation.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 02-15-2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Got my L & R mixed up, meant "the other left!"

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Nope, panel is less than 30" wide 30" is the minimum rule panel width or 30" whichever is greater, see article 110 of the NEC. Cabinet door swings open to L, nothing allowed to encroach work zone 30" to R of that along that wall from floor up.
    That's what I thought you were getting at, and that is incorrect.

    The minimum required working space is 30" wide, and that 30" wide space is movable side-to-side. It can be centered, it can be starting from the left edge of the panel, it can be starting from the right edge of the panel, opening the door is only required to open 90 degrees and has nothing to do with the 30" working space because the dead front cover will be removed before any work is performed with live part exposed.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    The 30 inch width does not have to be centered on the panel centerline. It can be all the way to the left or the right of the panel edge, regardless of door swing, as long as the door opens 90 degrees.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Also wood wall cabinet with 45 face overhangs headroom over toilet bowl - violation plumbing and building codes.
    First, that does not look like a 45 degree facing cabinet. If not, then it would not violate the headroom above the plumbing fixture.

    It it is a 45 degree cabinet, then it likely would encroach into the required headroom and you would be correct.

    lav and lav cabinet too close to toilet encroaching on space requirements for toilet under building and plumbing codes and ADA rules for toilet access. lav cabinet also encroaches on use space rules to the bowl/seat itself esp. with toilet so close to wall - another ADA access violation.

    Those, without having better photos, I will give you and add that the vanity cabinet would not be an approved accessible cabinet.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That's what I thought you were getting at, and that is incorrect.

    The minimum required working space is 30" wide, and that 30" wide space is movable side-to-side. It can be centered, it can be starting from the left edge of the panel, it can be starting from the right edge of the panel, opening the door is only required to open 90 degrees and has nothing to do with the 30" working space because the dead front cover will be removed before any work is performed with live part exposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The 30 inch width does not have to be centered on the panel centerline. It can be all the way to the left or the right of the panel edge, regardless of door swing, as long as the door opens 90 degrees.
    Sorry gentlemen, you are incorrect. That 30" work zone must be available at all times, including during the time the action of opening or closing the cabinet door takes place, and if that bathroom or stall door is opened or closed. In this instance with a fixed hinge door the installation must meet clearance. That work zone/clearance cannot be encroached by the entry door being opened or closed, I believe you have both MISSED the presence of a door being present in the third of the original photos provided. The three photos clearly show this is not a lift off cabinet door. A moot point since it is an in-the-wall cabinet which is not permitted in a damp location, and we have already established a toilet & sink room is a damp location as defined under locations, damp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    First, that does not look like a 45 degree facing cabinet. If not, then it would not violate the headroom above the plumbing fixture.

    It it is a 45 degree cabinet, then it likely would encroach into the required headroom and you would be correct.




    Those, without having better photos, I will give you and add that the vanity cabinet would not be an approved accessible cabinet.
    Huh? Its a standard kitchen upper corner cabinet with 45 face, quite obvious in the photos if you follow the intersecting wall corner lines.

    It isn't the vanity cabinet itself that is of issue that I addressed - unknown if there is an accessible sink elsewhere in the bathroom - it is its LOCATION encroaching on the accessible and usable footprint of the commode itself - esp. considering its location too close to the sidewall. Violation of building, plumbing codes as well as the ADA access rules.


    NEC references
    240.24 overcurrent protection Location in or on Premises.
    I have serious doubts that the feeder supplying this cabinet/panelboard
    is GFCI protected.
    240.24(C)
    see 110.11 Deterorating Agents.
    240.32 Damp or Wet Locations.
    Enclosures for overcurrent devices in damp or wet locations shall comply with 312.2(A).
    240.40. Obvious 240 v CBs in there.
    312.2(A).
    Protection against corrosion see 300.6
    300.6(A)(1).

    Picture also, if you will, Little Mister hopping up there onto that taller toilet seat with a full bladder feet dangling and letting go with the fountain of pee before he's mastered his balance on the seat and directed/tucked into the bowl, while that cabinet door is open as pictured (and low enough he could have opened it to explore before hopping on the throne). Similar multitude of consequences should an ostomy bag or catheter be serviced by the occupant of the private toilet area (while sitting on the toilet itself, or sitting on a wheel chair or standing near the toilet so as to empty it).

    Ignoring your further contributions Jerry.

    Bottom line, violations call them out, electrical, occupancy, plumbing, building codes and ADA violations. Refer to AHJ, Zoning, C of O, and verification following detailed Level 2 inspection and Permit/prior approval searches.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Sorry gentlemen, you are incorrect. That 30" work zone must be available at all times, including during the time the action of opening or closing the cabinet door takes place, and if that bathroom or stall door is opened or closed.
    You can ignore anyone and everyone you want, and you can ignore the code if you want, that does not, however, make you correct.

    Yes, the 30" must be available at all times, no one here has said differently.

    YOU implied in your post that the 30" had to accommodate the way the door swings so it must therefore provide for such - the working space has nothing to do with the way the door swings, only that it permit opening the door 90 degrees. The working space is there for ... heck, you won't believe me anyway, so here is the code:

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.
    - - Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.
    - - - (A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.
    - - - - (1) Depth of Working Space. The depth of the working space in the direction of live parts shall not be less than that specified in Table 110.26(A)(1) unless the requirements of 110.26(A)(1)(a), (A)(1)(b), or (A)(1)(c) are met. Distances shall be measured from the exposed live parts or from the enclosure or opening if the live parts are enclosed.
    - - - - - (a) Dead-Front Assemblies. Working space shall not be required in the back or sides of assemblies, such as dead-front switchboards or motor control centers, where all connections and all renewable or adjustable parts, such as fuses or switches, are accessible from locations other than the back or sides. Where rear access is required to work on nonelectrical parts on the back of enclosed equipment, a minimum horizontal working space of 762 mm (30 in.) shall be provided.
    - - - - - (b) Low Voltage. By special permission, smaller working spaces shall be permitted where all exposed live parts operate at not greater than 30 volts rms, 42 volts peak, or 60 volts dc.
    - - - - - (c) Existing Buildings. In existing buildings where electrical equipment is being replaced, Condition 2 working clearance shall be permitted between dead-front switchboards, panelboards, or motor control centers located across the aisle from each other where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that written procedures have been adopted to prohibit equipment on both sides of the aisle from being open at the same time and qualified persons who are authorized will service the installation.
    - - - - (2) Width of Working Space. The width of the working space in front of the electrical equipment shall be the width of the equipment or 762 mm (30 in.), whichever is greater. In all cases, the work space shall permit at least a 90 degree opening of equipment doors or hinged panels.

    You will not find anything in there which requires that the working space be offset to the side the door opens from - you will only find that the working space "shall be the width or the equipment" if greater than 30" or " 762 mm (30 in.)" if the equipment is less than 30".

    In this instance with a fixed hinge door the installation must meet clearance. That work zone/clearance cannot be encroached by the entry door being opened or closed, I believe you have both MISSED the presence of a door being present in the third of the original photos provided.
    Huh?

    The fixed door is JUST AS REQUIRED, it is WITHIN the require working space.

    The three photos clearly show this is not a lift off cabinet door.
    It would not matter if it were, the 30" width of the working space, starting at the right edge of the panel and measuring to the left allows for opening the door and MEETS THE CODE REQUIREMENTS for the width, and location, of the working space.

    Huh? Its a standard kitchen upper corner cabinet with 45 face, quite obvious in the photos if you follow the intersecting wall corner lines.
    Not obvious at all, look at the door, the door is not fully closed, that could be creating the optical illusion that you, or I, are seeing, which is why I stated incorrect if not, and correct if yes.

    Ignoring your further contributions Jerry.


    Unfortunately, I will not be able to ignore your future comments as they contain incorrect and inaccurate information WHICH WILL NEED TO BE, and will be, CORRECTED.

    I have this real nice effect on people who are wrong ... when I correct them they get mad. Which just shows what kind of people they are to start with.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Stubborn and foolish you ignore THE SWINGING DOOR to the TOILET AREA ITSELF.

    DUH. THIS lIMITS THE ZONE AREA. THE CODE PROHIBITS ENCROACHMENT One must not have to play "DANCING WITH THE DOORS" to maintain the 30" W minimum x 36" DEEP ZONE.

    Although it is obvious common sense, proportion, etc. are beyond you, it is OBVIOUS that the ZONE of 30" is LIMITED as to the Left of panel due to the SWINGING DOOR (not shown in zone in pics 1 & 2, as left corner is exposed - shown open at about 135 degrees and blocking view of L corner in photo #3.

    DUH DUH DUH. Rail and TP holder are ADJACENT to panel R edge just below and hang OVER the zone.

    The zone MAY NOT be extended into the TOILET ROOM'S DOOR SWING ZONE.

    Now, if we take the subsequent posts by the original poster as correct, that this is NOT a SE Disconnect panel, and that it is supplied by a FEEDER, then the panel ahead should be able to be LOCKED OUT.

    One should not be subject to dancing doors with the cabinet AND the toilet room DOOR and subject to being thrown to the TOILET WATER while attempting to DISCONNECT a circuit or re-set a breaker at the panel. Neither activity exposes the party to what is behind the dead front.

    The cabinet is in-the wall - not allowed. Damp location.

    Your rant about the wood cabinet in relation to the electrical cabinet is stupendously DUH. Plumbing code clearance building code clearance head room over comode, as they do comode footprint. ADA footprint also. Wood wall cabinet has NOTHING to do with the electrical cabinet.

    DANG should have canceled subscription to the thread.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Need I repeat it again?

    He sure got mad, and quick too.

    (underlining is new this time)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I have this real nice effect on people who are wrong ... when I correct them they get mad. Which just shows what kind of people they are to start with.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    when I correct them they get mad

    And why do feel compelled to control this BB by "correcting" everyone?

    Certainly you're not suggesting that you are the only person capable of interpreting a code cite? (and not just this example, but, well... quite literally every other post...)

    Not to get too bitchy, and hey, you do what you want. You will anyway.

    But it gets old seeing the constant pissing matches between JP and the entire rest of the Inspection News members. (Read some of them someday, as there are many examples from many different posters.)

    Have fun, Cut & Paste away...


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Dom,

    When I saw you had post to this thread, I already knew what your post would be like before I even bothered to read it.
    You are a creature if habit making posts like that.

    So be it.

    Go for it man, if it makes you feel like more of a man.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    But it gets old seeing the constant pissing matches between JP and the entire rest of the Inspection News members. (Read some of them someday, as there are many examples from many different posters.)
    Not "the entire rest of the Inspection News members", and maybe you should take your own advice and read them someday.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ...I already knew what your post would be like before I even bothered to read it.

    I was being civil, and I raised a valid point.

    Sorry you couldn't keep an open mind and read it prior to condemning my viewpoint.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Sorry you couldn't keep an open mind and read it prior to condemning my viewpoint.
    Read my post above yours.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Read my post above yours.

    I did.

    There are countless posts around here with you arguing with dozens of folks, and not just me.

    Just an observation, but I'm sure you'll always believe you are correct, no matter what.

    Sometimes you are right, but for Christ's sakes, no one is 100% correct 100% of the time. Yes? No? ???


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Sometimes you are right, but for Christ's sakes, no one is 100% correct 100% of the time. Yes? No? ???

    Dom,

    Your problem seems to be one of lack of reading, such as reading those posts where I am incorrect, and state I am incorrect, etc.

    And, yes, I chose specifically to use the words "lack of reading" because, if you had read them, you would not have posted that statement above.

    Or were you just exaggerating again? Silly me if you were and I did not "read" that into your post.

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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    The wall in which that panel is installed does not meet the definition of a damp area.


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    "Dancing with doors." Not an issue. For example, there is no prohibition against the door to the room, or stall, completely covering the panel when the door is in anyparticular position.

    Not that I'd recommend it ... I know one nursing home that spent years - literally - looking for a panel. They found it when someone passed away - a lady whose door had always been propped open!


  53. #53
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Area within 3 ft of the toilet a 'wet' area?

    If it's so wet ... how come I see so much dry toilet paper!

    I disagree with whatever led someone to conclude that!


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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Location isn't dry location (defined), toilets spray when flushed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Agreed. Research has shown that toilet 'spray' when flushed to about 3 feet out from their center (about a 6 foot diameter circle).
    John,

    My agreement with H. G. Watson, Sr. was that when toilets flush they put out a plume of water mist about 6 feet in diameter (from the only research I've seen on the issue, and that was many years back and was basically referring to the hygiene issue of having toilets and sinks, with toothbrushes, soap, etc., within 3 feet of each other) as "not dry" because of that mist.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Area within 3 ft of the toilet a 'wet' area?

    If it's so wet ... how come I see so much dry toilet paper!

    I disagree with whatever led someone to conclude that!
    I suspect (but do not know, he may well have been) that he *was not* classifying that as a "wet location", because it is not, nor was he classifying that as a "damp location", because it is not, but his point (I surmise) is that it is not "dry either" - to which I am agreeing.

    However, if it is not a "wet location" and it is not a "damp location", it is a "dry location" as considered by the NEC, and the only way to tell is by reading the definitions.

    To put this issue to rest, these are the definitions from the 2008 NEC.

    - Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

    - Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.

    - Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

    By definition, that is not a wet or damp location, but a dry location.

    On your statement regarding the entry door into the bathroom, I fully agree with you, there is no prohibition to that door swinging open into that working space - contrary to what him saying there is.

    Dom,

    Just in case you missed the above, and being as John and I disagree so often, we are both in agreement on those two issues.

    I figure you must be keeping track on your chalk board by your desk and computer - just wanting to point that out.

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  55. #55
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    I am not siding with anyone here I am just stating what everyone wants to ignore or just say it is not a wet area or it is allowed in a bathroom, etc.

    Possible flooded floor and having to get to the panel with possible slip and fall. Possible spay from a line break from the sink or toilet, closing a bathroom down when work is required etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Not a good idea of putting an electric panel in a bathroom at all. To many what ifs. I know everyone wants a code. How about the code that there are many more places in any building where putting a panel is so much better suited code and not have to mess with all the what ifs. Not to mention. Doesn't anyone think it is just a really dumb idea. How about the dumb code or the lack of sense code.

    No reason what so ever for putting a panel in a bathroom, period.

    How about the AHJ just looking at someone and saying, are you for real? Whats up with this. Don't you think it is a slap in the side of the head as to, HUH.

    How about someone looking at a drawing and saying

    "Ah, whats up with this. I am not passing it because it is just dumb. Find somewhere else to put it. Just to many what ifs involved here. To many questions to answer about code and dance around for passing it. Put it somewhere else"

    That is like the polite embarrassing I do with builders when I say to them.

    " Let me see. We have an 800 square foot master suite with how many supply vents and how many ton pumping into this master suite and you want all the return air to suck out under the bedroom door thru that 1/2 " slot. Are you serious or did the HVAC guy just misfigure this one?"


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    Smile Re: Service Panel Location

    Being at risk of being declared one of Jerry's cronies, I here by agree with him on the definition of dry location and that the swinging door is not an encroachment on the working space..

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  57. #57
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    ...........................................GetAttachmentCAI4Y8P4.jpg

    This slide might help in the 110.26 discussions.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    This service panel is in a commercial building, I have not seen one located in a bathroom like this before. Any thoughts, direct violations, recommendations, etc.
    Dylan: What is that on the wall above the panelboard in the first photo?

    As for the accessibility issue, JP is correct and the rest of you who disagree simply do not have an adequate command of the English language. You are practicing "selective defining" of terms that are universally understood in the common vernacular.

    Please stop.


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    The panelboard being located in a commercial bathroom is not a violation of the NEC. Also, 110.26 is not violated by the toilet paper holder. The bathroom is a dry location.
    There is just not an NEC issue here. (There may be violations in the wiring methods that are not observable from the pictures and with the panel cover on it's just a guess, anyway).


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    The panelboard being located in a commercial bathroom is not a violation of the NEC. Also, 110.26 is not violated by the toilet paper holder. The bathroom is a dry location.
    There is just not an NEC issue here. (There may be violations in the wiring methods that are not observable from the pictures and with the panel cover on it's just a guess, anyway).
    Fred: Maybe, assuming that there is really nothing above the panel. But, there appears to be.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Fred: Maybe, assuming that there is really nothing above the panel. But, there appears to be.
    I can see something that resembles perhaps a time clock. If it's part of the electrical system installation, it's permitted to occupy that space provided it does not project out away from the finished wall surface more than 6 inches as per 110.26(A)(3). If it's not of an electrical nature, it's a violation.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    I can see something that resembles perhaps a time clock. If it's part of the electrical system installation, it's permitted to occupy that space provided it does not project out away from the finished wall surface more than 6 inches as per 110.26(A)(3). If it's not of an electrical nature, it's a violation.
    Fred: Agreed, but with the "quality" of the photo, it might be a portal to the Twilight Zone, for all I can tell.


  63. #63
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Fred: Agreed, but with the "quality" of the photo, it might be a portal to the Twilight Zone, for all I can tell.
    I'm not sure about twilight zone portals, but it seems like if they're electrical in nature, they would be permitted.


  64. #64
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    A.D. Miller- If I remember correctly it was a clock. I'm pretty sure that it was not part of the electrical system. As far as the rest of the bathroom meeting ADA standards there were many violations, ranging from proper water closet height, spacing, toilet seat cover. The lavatory cabinet had a false cover built to conceal the plumbing. They were requested to remove the cover and install one that complies to ADA standard. Sorry about the poor quality of photos it was taken on a phone.

    Dylan Whitehead

  65. #65
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    Default Re: Service Panel Location

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    A.D. Miller- If I remember correctly it was a clock. I'm pretty sure that it was not part of the electrical system. As far as the rest of the bathroom meeting ADA standards there were many violations, ranging from proper water closet height, spacing, toilet seat cover. The lavatory cabinet had a false cover built to conceal the plumbing. They were requested to remove the cover and install one that complies to ADA standard. Sorry about the poor quality of photos it was taken on a phone.
    Dylan: It wasn't a big honkin' cuckoo clock, was it?


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