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  1. #1
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    Default 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Inspected 1954 house with 3 hole outlet for the range...where does the non-insulated braided wire go? Neutral or Ground buss? The timer and light are 120v.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    If that is the service panel then it doesn't matter. And I might add that it has to originate from the service panel..

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    If that is the service panel then it doesn't matter. And I might add that it has to originate from the service panel..
    Nope. Not the service panel! It's the dreaded sub.....


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Also, the metal cross over bar was removed to separate the neutral terminal bar from the ground terminal bar and it was not replaced with the required plastic cross over bar. That bar is used to help stabilize the two terminal bars in their snap-in plastic prong holders.

    The range neutral/ground is on the neutral side, however, as Roland pointed out, it is only allowed if it goes to (originates at) the service equipment.

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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Thanks Roland & Jerry.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Vern,

    I'm guessing that, because the range went there, that was originally the service equipment.

    Whenever I saw something like that, I would take a real good look at the feeders (what are now feeders) as they used to be service entrance conductors (unless they have been replaced), and service entrance conductors are allowed to use an un-insulated neutral, feeder conductors are required to have an insulated neutral.

    You also got the other thing in that panel too, right?

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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Vern,

    I'm guessing that, because the range went there, that was originally the service equipment.

    Whenever I saw something like that, I would take a real good look at the feeders (what are now feeders) as they used to be service entrance conductors (unless they have been replaced), and service entrance conductors are allowed to use an un-insulated neutral, feeder conductors are required to have an insulated neutral.

    You also got the other thing in that panel too, right?
    Neutral is insulated. If you are refering to the loose black tape on the white wire, yes. Otherwise I'm not sure I know what you refer to.


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    You also got the other thing in that panel too, right?
    Sheathing on the 20amp 2+1?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Vern;

    If the branch circuit for the range does not originate at the Main Service Panel than the NEC requires the range to be connected to a 4 Wire cable, will require the bond strap from the neutral terminal to the range frame to be removed.

    Frank Mauck


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You also got the other thing in that panel too, right?
    Yeah, I got that thing. You get that other other thing? How about that other other other thing that may or may not be wrong depending on when that work was done?


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    Yeah, I got that thing. You get that other other thing? How about that other other other thing that may or may not be wrong depending on when that work was done?
    Yeah, I got those. How about that thing upstairs in the master bath. You get that?

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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Neutral is insulated. If you are refering to the loose black tape on the white wire, yes. Otherwise I'm not sure I know what you refer to.
    First there is that entire range wiring discussion:

    Then there is this from post above (just a repeat):
    - Also, the metal cross over bar was removed to separate the neutral terminal bar from the ground terminal bar and it was not replaced with the required plastic cross over bar. That bar is used to help stabilize the two terminal bars in their snap-in plastic prong holders.

    There are also these:
    - The PVC entering the bottom is just stuck up through the hole.
    - The NM cables are not secured to the panel enclosure.
    - The black tape coming off the white wire should not be tape, it should be a permanent marking, such as painting, etc.

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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Thanks Jerry. I have never seen the plastic bar you mention. Do you have a pic of one?


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Vern,

    This is one.

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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    This was a pre-listing inspection. I think I will leave a little something for the next guy to write up .

    Thanks for the pic...never seen one!


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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    I don't believe that particular panel board is supplied with a plastic crossover. The panel looks like a GE PowerMark Gold series panel. The supplied crossover bar links ground and neutral buses, and there is a grounding screw provided to bond the enclosure to the interconnected ground/neutral buses. There is space for an optional dedicated grounding bus attached and bonded directly to the enclosure (as opposed to the buses on the plastic standoffs).

    I believe the difference between this panel and the panel picture Jerry provided is that the standoffs are different. The installation instructions for the PowerMark Gold load centers don't mention anything about replacing the cross-over bar with a plastic variant. The instructions do mention an optional dedicated equipment grounding bus.

    If I recall correctly, the installation options available for this series of panels include:

    With cross-over bar in place:
    - Bonded neutral and ground together if this is the main service entrance panel with bonding screw if required
    - Insulated neutral with separate ground bus

    Without cross-over bar in place:
    - Insulated neutral and insulated ground buses (with enclosure bonding screw if required)


  17. #17
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    The first attached photo is of a panel with the same terminal bar arrangement. You can see the large screw holes in the bottom of the terminal bars better in this photo, however, if you look at Vern's photo, you will see them there too.

    Those two holes are where the metal cross over bar is attached.

    The purpose of that metal cross over bar is two-fold: 1) it ties the two bars together; 2) it stabilizes them in their plastic snap in mounts.

    The second photo shows a different manufacturer with the plastic cross over bar installed, its purpose is also two-fold: 1) it insulates/isolates the two terminal bars from each other; 2) it stabilizes them in their plastic snap in mounts.

    The third photo is where the metal cross over bar has been removed (similar to as shown in Vern's photo but a different manufacturer panel, the first photo is of the same manufacturer's panel and shows this condition as well) and the plastic cross over bar not installed.

    The two manufacturers who typically have those cross over bars are GE and Siemens, depending on the panel models.

    If you look at the diagram (schematic) in the panel or on the cover, you will see that bar shown, it is also likely shown (described) in the text in the label.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The purpose of that metal cross over bar is two-fold: 1) it ties the two bars together; 2) it stabilizes them in their plastic snap in mounts.
    The panel in the original picture looks very much like a GE PowerMark Gold load center and I'm familiar with the nature of the supplied metal cross-over bar as I have one installed in my own home.

    Siemens might have a plastic replacement bar for stabilization, but I couldn't find mention of one in the GE installation instructions. Now the GE site isn't the friendliest place to look and I don't have a catalogue handy (I'm in Jacksonville this week), but I don't recall ever having run across a plastic version.

    GE supplies three screws with their panel - two short screws that attach the bar to the neutral/ground buses and a long green screw that bonds the neutral bus to the enclosure (if required). Inside the panel door is a list of accessories available which lists breakers, blanks, door latches and locks, and ground bus kits, but doesn't include any mention of a plastic cross-over bar (according to the GE panel I'm looking at right now).

    Given the lack of evidence to the contrary, I would suggest that while it is clear such a bar exists for some other manufacturers, a plastic bar does not exist for the GE panels. In my experience it's not needed with the GE panels either - unlike some of the other panels the neutral/ground buses feel very sturdy in their plastic standoffs.

    ===

    Speaking of Jacksonville, does anyone know of a good electrician in the area? My friend has a "unique" electrical setup (see picture) and I don't have time (or a FL electricians license) to help him with it.

    BTW Jerry - I just drove through Ormond Beach yesterday on my way down to Orlando. Is it all townhouses and condos there or is that just the view near the highways?

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    BTW Jerry - I just drove through Ormond Beach yesterday on my way down to Orlando. Is it all townhouses and condos there or is that just the view near the highways?
    While there are others, there are few in Ormond Beach, you likely saw Daytona Beach where there are many. Ormond Beach and Daytona Beach are right next to each other.

    North of SR 40 in Ormond Beach you will not see any from I-95.

    South of SR 40 you will see some in Ormond Beach backed up to I-95 on the east side, then (about 1-1/2 miles south of SR 40) it turns into Daytona Beach and you will see more.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    Now the GE site isn't the friendliest place to look
    No kidding on that.

    I finally found an installation instruction for that panel and it says that the bar can be removed, then it adds without explanation that "See rating label wiring diagram for additional neutral and ground lug kits."

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I finally found an installation instruction for that panel and it says that the bar can be removed, then it adds without explanation that "See rating label wiring diagram for additional neutral and ground lug kits."
    I only have my cell phone with me so I apologize for the terrible picture. Just under the area with the panel rating are listed the options applicable to the panel. This includes the breaker types (with a warning that using non-GE breakers voids the panel warranty), half-height and full height blanks, and ground kits. From my recollection, the three ground kits they list differ only in the number of available lugs. All of the spaces accommodate wire sized from 14AWG up to 4AWG and use a combo slotted and R2 square drive screw - which, as I recall, is somewhat limiting since the grounding lug on the left neutral bus bar (which becomes the ground bus bar when the cross-over strap is removed), accommodates up to 0AWG.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: 3 Conductor 240v range outlet wiring?

    Can't read the label you took a photo of, however, the label is what governs and why I stated this above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If you look at the diagram (schematic) in the panel or on the cover, you will see that bar shown, it is also likely shown (described) in the text in the label.


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