Results 1 to 39 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    I wanted to get some opinions on a hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub installation I saw yesterday.
    The entire house is plumbed with copper except the remodeled tub which has copper stubbed up from the slab under the tub and immediately transitioned to CPVC.
    So while copper lines serve the tub, there is 12 to 18 inches of plastic isolating it electrically from the copper and PVC drain lines.
    The copper is available for bonding but the way I understand the requirement, there is no requirement for bonding, just like if the entire house was plumbed with PEX.
    Thoughts?

    Similar Threads:
    NHIE Practice Exam
    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    I guess the question is. What difference does it make if the copper ends at the Tub hook up or 12 to 18 inches before. It is still running to the tub area. You have to think what the pipe is connecting to even if they run it all the way (something other than copper) it still has to be bonded and the motor grounded.

    My opinion anyway. Copper still runs all the way through the home and or concrete all the way to the tub area.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Jim,

    First, here is the 2008 NEC.
    - VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs
    - - 680.74 Bonding.
    - - - All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

    Here is my question to you: If the copper went all the way to the tub, would you bond the metal water piping?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I wanted to get some opinions on a hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub installation I saw yesterday.
    The entire house is plumbed with copper except the remodeled tub which has copper stubbed up from the slab under the tub and immediately transitioned to CPVC.
    So while copper lines serve the tub, there is 12 to 18 inches of plastic isolating it electrically from the copper and PVC drain lines.
    The copper is available for bonding but the way I understand the requirement, there is no requirement for bonding, just like if the entire house was plumbed with PEX.
    Thoughts?
    Jim: Regardless if it is copper, PEX or CPVC, they must be bonded, in my opinion. If the tub has metal parts and the motor has metal parts all should be bonded. If there is a bonding lug on the motor I write them up as in need of bonding. I cannot practically ascertain if the motor is double insulated and wouldn't if I could.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    AD,

    Could you please explain why you think a non-metallic piping method like PEX or CPVC would need to be bonded and how it would be accomplished?


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    AD,

    Could you please explain why you think a non-metallic piping method like PEX or CPVC would need to be bonded and how it would be accomplished?
    Proper way to "bond" non-metallic PEX & CPVC is with nylon fishing line* and zip ties as ground clamps.

    * Needs to be at least 60# mono filament line.













    I would bond it and be done with it,myself......


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Succasunna NJ
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    I cannot practically ascertain if the motor is double insulated and wouldn't if I could.
    If the plug is a 2 prong type, it's double insulated.

    If cooper pipes are used from the pump to the tub, then bonding is needed.

    Darren www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
    'Whizzing & pasting & pooting through the day (Ronnie helping Kenny helping burn his poots away!) (FZ)

  8. #8
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    OK, I have heard the same tired-ass justification for not bonding hydromassage equipment for years from all three types of "electricians": the sparklets, the sparkers, and the sparkless (or fizzled out).

    Here are the facts in evidence. And please, instead of just reading the parts you agree with, read all of the words that are there.

    NEC 680.74 All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

    Now, I will grant you that, with a plastic tub and plastic supply piping and plastic DWV piping, that NEC 680.74 does not require bonding of the equipment in question. But, that is not as far as it goes:

    NEC 110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

    So then, if the motor or tub manufacturer requires bonding, then you bond it or you are not compliant. It's just that simple. And all tub manufacturers stipulate that bonding is required on their equipment.

    So take fishing line and floss real good; use the zip ties to handcuff each other; stand against that wall over there and smile for the firing squad


  9. #9
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    The OP is asking about the piping supplying the tub. This is not the piping in contact with the 'circulating water.' Therefore, there is no requirement to take any special efforts to bond it. After all, it's supposed to be bonded at the house, isn't it?

    Now, tubs apart, we're expected to bond piping 'likely to become energized.' An example might be water heater piping, where a failed element may leak current into the water. Is that the case here? Probably not.

    Of course, there is no harm done if the piping is bonded.

    Otherwise, the unit likely has a bonding lug on it somewhere, probably near the point where the power conductors terminate. Land the ground wire there, and be done with it.

    We're not at the point - yet - where we are expected to 'bond the water' in hot tubs.


  10. #10
    Bob Hunt's Avatar
    Bob Hunt Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Jim:

    Having recently completed installing a Jacuzzi tub in my home, I can tell that the manufacturer's instructions clearly state that the pump motor and the heater (if poresent) must be bonded with a minumum of 8 ga. copper. The manufacturer installs the connections on both the pump and heater housings.

    Jacuzzi installation instructions are available on their web site.

    Bob


  11. #11
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    The OP is asking about the piping supplying the tub. This is not the piping in contact with the 'circulating water.' Therefore, there is no requirement to take any special efforts to bond it. After all, it's supposed to be bonded at the house, isn't it?

    Now, tubs apart, we're expected to bond piping 'likely to become energized.' An example might be water heater piping, where a failed element may leak current into the water. Is that the case here? Probably not.

    Of course, there is no harm done if the piping is bonded.

    Otherwise, the unit likely has a bonding lug on it somewhere, probably near the point where the power conductors terminate. Land the ground wire there, and be done with it.

    We're not at the point - yet - where we are expected to 'bond the water' in hot tubs.
    Doubting Thomases:

    It seems that each time this issue comes up on this forum the loony inspector electrician wannabes come flying out of their hiding places babbling on about a lack of need for bonding.

    http://www.jacuzzi.com/pdf/K272000.PDF

    Read the manuals; read the code; take a moment to let it all sink in. They have the manuals in several languages, but stupid is not one of them.


  12. #12
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunt View Post
    Jim:

    Having recently completed installing a Jacuzzi tub in my home, I can tell that the manufacturer's instructions clearly state that the pump motor and the heater (if poresent) must be bonded with a minumum of 8 ga. copper. The manufacturer installs the connections on both the pump and heater housings.

    Jacuzzi installation instructions are available on their web site.

    Bob
    Bob: Agreed.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub



    AD, like others on this board you failed to address the issue that was initially asked. That asked about bonding a tub fed with non-metallic piping. You also did not answer how or what would be accomplished trying to bond a non-conductive material.

    Yes, the Jacuzzi pdf posted, pg 21, does say to bond the heater enclosure if it is used. The instructions never mention bonding the piping or what to do if is non-metallic. No one ever said that the instruction could be ignored. You also assume that all tubs are this way.

    I am also glad to see the level of professionalism that you show when you childishly insult others.



  14. #14
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post

    AD, like others on this board you failed to address the issue that was initially asked. That asked about bonding a tub fed with non-metallic piping. You also did not answer how or what would be accomplished trying to bond a non-conductive material.

    Yes, the Jacuzzi pdf posted, pg 21, does say to bond the heater enclosure if it is used. The instructions never mention bonding the piping or what to do if is non-metallic. No one ever said that the instruction could be ignored. You also assume that all tubs are this way.

    I am also glad to see the level of professionalism that you show when you childishly insult others.
    Jim: For your convenience this is the original post:

    Bonding of hydrotherapy tub
    I wanted to get some opinions on a hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub installation I saw yesterday.
    The entire house is plumbed with copper except the remodeled tub which has copper stubbed up from the slab under the tub and immediately transitioned to CPVC.
    So while copper lines serve the tub, there is 12 to 18 inches of plastic isolating it electrically from the copper and PVC drain lines.
    The copper is available for bonding but the way I understand the requirement, there is no requirement for bonding, just like if the entire house was plumbed with PEX.
    Thoughts?
    __________________
    Jim Luttrall
    Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
    Allen, Texas 75002

    So then, the original question was not what you insist, but rather if there is no requirement for bonding under said circumstances. And, that is the question I addressed with my answer.

    My "childish insult", as you describe it, was nothing more than an accurate assessment of the facts in evidence. The code and the manufacturer's installation instructions be damned, these guys plow straight ahead with their pseudo-electrician blather. I referred to them as "stupid", because they are. Stupidity is cultivated ignorance, or willfully refusing to inform yourself with the facts at hand.

    That also applies to folks who cannot read the posts to which they refer when calling someone "childish".

    Now to your question. Insert a solid #8 bonding conductor under the motor frame bonding lug; tighten the lug; take the bonding conductor and connect it to any other metallic parts on the tub; take the terminus of the bonding conductor and attach it, using an approved clamp to a driven rod; be happy.

    Don't like my posts? Don't read them.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    [quote=A.D. Miller;73722]
    Now to your question. Insert a solid #8 bonding conductor under the motor frame bonding lug; tighten the lug; take the bonding conductor and connect it to any other metallic parts on the tub; take the terminus of the bonding conductor and attach it, using an approved clamp to a driven rod; be happy.

    [quote]

    Please provide a code reference that states the above method using a driven ground rod is compliant.

    Since ground rods are primarily for lighting and other high voltage events how would this help with the safe operation of the tub? Ground rods do not help a circuit breaker to clear a fault.

    Last edited by Jim Port; 02-16-2009 at 11:38 AM.

  16. #16
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    [quote=Jim Port;73724]
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller;73722
    Now to your question. Insert a solid #8 bonding conductor under the motor frame bonding lug; tighten the lug; take the bonding conductor and connect it to any other metallic parts on the tub; take the terminus of the bonding conductor and attach it, using an approved clamp to a driven rod; be happy.:D

    quote

    Please provide a code reference that states the above method using a driven ground rod is compliant.

    Since ground rods are primarily for lighting and other high voltage events how would this help with the safe operation of the tub? Ground rods do not help a circuit breaker to clear a fault.
    Jim:

    If it makes you happy, and it will certainly make your supplier happy, you can run it all the way back to the main distribution panelboard which is, quite coincidentally, grounded in exactly the same way.


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    First, here is the 2008 NEC.
    - VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs
    - - 680.74 Bonding.
    - - - All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

    Here is my question to you: If the copper went all the way to the tub, would you bond the metal water piping?
    This is the answer to my question above:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    The OP is asking about the piping supplying the tub. This is not the piping in contact with the 'circulating water.' Therefore, there is no requirement to take any special efforts to bond it. After all, it's supposed to be bonded at the house, isn't it?


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Staying away from the rants and focusing on the issue: from the Jacuzzi installation instructions.

    A PRESSURE WIRE CONNECTOR IS PROVIDED ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE MOTOR/PUMP AND
    HEATER TO PERMIT CONNECTION OF AN NO. 8 AWG (8.4 MM) SOLID COPPER BONDING CONDUCTOR
    BETWEEN THIS UNIT AND ALL OTHER ELECTRIC EQUIPMENT AND EXPOSED METAL IN THE VICINITY,
    AS NEEDED TO COMPLY WITH LOCAL REQUIREMENTS.
    This would not seem to require bonding to under-slab piping, not exposed, and not required in the code since it is not part of the water circulation piping. Also, bonding to the under-slab copper pipes would not accomplish anything that is not already required by the equipment ground and GFCI.
    While it may be good as extra protection, I do not see the requirement in any of the manufacturer or code requirements, yet (but always willing to learn)
    I might bite if the requirement was to bond the exposed faucet and handles, but bonding to the underground copper would not accomplish this since the CPVC isolates the building piping from the tub and faucet set. But then we would be back to the HOW to bond the faucet and spout since there is no metal pipe to which one might attach a bonding clamp.
    Thoughts?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  19. #19
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    It wasn't clear to me in the original post as to whether the metallic piping actually emerged from under the slab to a transition to PVC above the slab line. If this were the case, and if the motor was not a double-insulated type, but rather had a bonding lug affixed to it, I would then take a length of #8 solid copper and extend it from the pump motor to the copper piping, both hot and cold. 680.74 does not require the bonding conductor for this equipotential plane to be extended to the panelboard. Bonding in this scenario is only intended to reduce voltage gradients.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    I would NOT drive an ground rod and connect to it either.

    As soon as you did that, that simply becomes another grounding electrode for the grounding electrode system and all grounding electrode are required to be bonded together, meaning you would then be required to bond that new ground rod all the way back to the service with a properly sized grounding electrode bonding conductor.

    Like Rolland and Fred, I would simply (required or not, and it is not) run a bonding jumper over to the copper lines coming up through the slab.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I would NOT drive an ground rod and connect to it either.

    As soon as you did that, that simply becomes another grounding electrode for the grounding electrode system and all grounding electrode are required to be bonded together, meaning you would then be required to bond that new ground rod all the way back to the service with a properly sized grounding electrode bonding conductor.

    Like Rolland and Fred, I would simply (required or not, and it is not) run a bonding jumper over to the copper lines coming up through the slab.
    JP: Note:

    1. I never said that I would install a ground rod. I merely indicated that, if he needed to be doing something that HE could do that.

    2. I assumed that we had PEX coming through the slab and not copper, which would negate what you said.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Doubting Thomases:

    It seems that each time this issue comes up on this forum the loony inspector electrician wannabes come flying out of their hiding places babbling on about a lack of need for bonding.

    http://www.jacuzzi.com/pdf/K272000.PDF

    Read the manuals; read the code; take a moment to let it all sink in. They have the manuals in several languages, but stupid is not one of them.

    Aaron,

    I must need to learn how to read , but ... I'm not finding where it states that the #8 AWG bonding conductor *IS REQUIRED*.

    Would you point it out to me? Thanks.

    This is what I see in there: (underlining and red text are mine)
    "A PRESSURE WIRE CONNECTOR IS PROVIDED ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE MOTOR/PUMP AND HEATER TO PERMIT CONNECTION OF AN NO. 8 AWG (8.4 MM) SOLID COPPER BONDING CONDUCTOR BETWEEN THIS UNIT AND ALL OTHER ELECTRIC EQUIPMENT AND EXPOSED METAL IN THE VICINITY, AS NEEDED TO COMPLY WITH LOCAL REQUIREMENTS."


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I would NOT drive an ground rod and connect to it either.

    As soon as you did that, that simply becomes another grounding electrode for the grounding electrode system and all grounding electrode are required to be bonded together, meaning you would then be required to bond that new ground rod all the way back to the service with a properly sized grounding electrode bonding conductor.

    Like Rolland and Fred, I would simply (required or not, and it is not) run a bonding jumper over to the copper lines coming up through the slab.

    Not questioning you I just must keep skipping over that. Where does it say that


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Not questioning you I just must keep skipping over that. Where does it say that

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
    - - All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
    Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #25
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
    - - All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
    Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
    JP: What say, let us just calmly stroll through this discussion. Maybe you will learn something. Maybe it will be me doing the learing. It could even be both of us who are enlightened. Let me see if I can state this clearly enough so that you don't spend a lot of your energy and my good will convoluting it for sport.

    My understanding is that, in the ideal world, we are seeking to equalize the electrical potentional of metal parts which come into contact with moving water in a hydrotherapy tub. Is this your understanding? If so, please say so. If not, please state why not.

    That's my first question. Others may follow. Small steps.


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    My understanding is that, in the ideal world, we are seeking to equalize the electrical potential of metal parts which come into contact with moving water in a hydrotherapy tub. Is this your understanding? If so, please say so. If not, please state why not.
    Correct.

    Fred said it pretty well in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    680.74 does not require the bonding conductor for this equipotential plane to be extended to the panelboard. Bonding in this scenario is only intended to reduce voltage gradients.

    And John added some good information in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    The OP is asking about the piping supplying the tub. This is not the piping in contact with the 'circulating water.' Therefore, there is no requirement to take any special efforts to bond it. After all, it's supposed to be bonded at the house, isn't it?

    Now, tubs apart, we're expected to bond piping 'likely to become energized.' An example might be water heater piping, where a failed element may leak current into the water. Is that the case here? Probably not.

    Of course, there is no harm done if the piping is bonded.

    Otherwise, the unit likely has a bonding lug on it somewhere, probably near the point where the power conductors terminate. Land the ground wire there, and be done with it.

    We're not at the point - yet - where we are expected to 'bond the water' in hot tubs.
    The reason is not to create an equipotential plane as is done around swimming pools and spas (although bonding of hydromassage tubs did start out that way and have progressed through the code cycles away from there), because, it that were the intent, then one would be bonding to the metal windows (like was done many years ago) and to the metal framing under the tub (as those installation instructions you posted still state, but the code does not - other than through 110.3(B) requiring installation in accordance with the instructions).

    This is the code: (I've underlined the applicable sentence, the other is describing the process for bonding)
    - 680.74 Bonding.
    - - All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

    "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts" (what)
    "in contact with the circulating water" (where)
    "shall be bonded together" (when)
    "using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG." (how)

    Now, *IF* there are no "metal piping systems" and no "grounded metal parts" which are "in contact with the circulating water", then there is nothing to bond the motor to, bonding lug present or not.

    However, from the installation instructions which you posted a link to:
    "A PRESSURE WIRE CONNECTOR IS PROVIDED ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE MOTOR/PUMP AND HEATER TO PERMIT CONNECTION OF AN NO. 8 AWG (8.4 MM) SOLID COPPER BONDING CONDUCTOR BETWEEN THIS UNIT AND ALL OTHER ELECTRIC EQUIPMENT AND EXPOSED METAL IN THE VICINITY, AS NEEDED TO COMPLY WITH LOCAL REQUIREMENTS."

    The bonding lug is there "to permit" the bonding to "all other electric equipment" "and" "exposed metal in the vicinity", that is what that lug is there for, and when do you use it? "As needed to comply with" local codes and requirements.

    In other words, the NEC does not require you to bond metal framing used to support the tub platform, however, those metal studs ARE "exposed metal in the vicinity" and your local AHJ *may* require that to be bonded, if so, then the bonding lug is there "to permit" you to do so.

    Additionally, *IF* there are "grounded metal parts", i.e., a heater, which are "in contact with the circulating water", then, yes, that lug is also there "to permit" the bonding to such "grounded metal parts".

    I suspect you got your "shall be required for equipotential bonding" wording from the last part of the code.
    - 680.74 Bonding.
    - - All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

    That is addressing equipotential bonding *of the items listed above*, which are: "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together".

    Ready for the next small step question.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    A ground rod should not be driven. The scenerio requires bonding only.


  28. #28
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    JP: Now, I am no electrician, so bear with me here, I am trying to get this straight and am honestly not just being difficult because I can.

    Where does NEC 250.4(A)4 fit in when it says:

    (4) Bonding of Electrically Conductive Materials and Other Equipment. Normally non–current-carrying electrically conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

    Are the metal faucets and trim pieces, which are in contact with running water, not included in the above statement?


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Where does NEC 250.4(A)4 fit in when it says:

    (4) Bonding of Electrically Conductive Materials and Other Equipment. Normally non–current-carrying electrically conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

    Are the metal faucets and trim pieces, which are in contact with running water, not included in the above statement?
    Yes and no.

    Yes in that when they are connected to metal water piping systems, there is the potential for them to become "likely to become energized" due to their connection with the metal water piping systems, and they are bonded to ground through those metal water piping systems.

    No in that when they are connected to non-metallic water piping systems, there is no real potential for them to become "likely to become energized". The way they would "likely become energized" would be limited to either through the water (which cannot be bonded unless a metal wire were inserted through the non-metallic water piping system its entire length, connecting each wire section together when making up the water piping system connections) or by somehow energizing it with a live wire laying over it, in which case the live wire would be the problem, not the metal faucet not connected to anything else conductive.

    You are not suggesting that a grounding wire be run to each and every faucet, spout, metallic sink, metal escutcheon, etc., are you? Those items would then have to be made with a bonding lug on them, you would be talking about changing the way electrical systems and water piping systems are made.

    Did that help?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I wanted to get some opinions on a hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub installation I saw yesterday.
    The entire house is plumbed with copper except the remodeled tub which has copper stubbed up from the slab under the tub and immediately transitioned to CPVC.
    So while copper lines serve the tub, there is 12 to 18 inches of plastic isolating it electrically from the copper and PVC drain lines.
    The copper is available for bonding but the way I understand the requirement, there is no requirement for bonding, just like if the entire house was plumbed with PEX.
    Thoughts?

    To answer the OP's question. There is no requirement to bond to the copper because of the transition to plastic. The bonding of the motor to the heated is required to be a # 8 copper by the manufacturer and the NEC.

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  31. #31
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes and no.

    Yes in that when they are connected to metal water piping systems, there is the potential for them to become "likely to become energized" due to their connection with the metal water piping systems, and they are bonded to ground through those metal water piping systems.

    No in that when they are connected to non-metallic water piping systems, there is no real potential for them to become "likely to become energized". The way they would "likely become energized" would be limited to either through the water (which cannot be bonded unless a metal wire were inserted through the non-metallic water piping system its entire length, connecting each wire section together when making up the water piping system connections) or by somehow energizing it with a live wire laying over it, in which case the live wire would be the problem, not the metal faucet not connected to anything else conductive.

    You are not suggesting that a grounding wire be run to each and every faucet, spout, metallic sink, metal escutcheon, etc., are you? Those items would then have to be made with a bonding lug on them, you would be talking about changing the way electrical systems and water piping systems are made.

    Did that help?
    JP: Somewhat. That's a lot of stuff to shovel into such a small space in a relatively short period of time. Let it simmer and I'll get back to you.


  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Miller View Post
    To answer the OP's question. There is no requirement to bond to the copper because of the transition to plastic. The bonding of the motor to the heated is required to be a # 8 copper by the manufacturer and the NEC.

    Roland,

    You've confused me here, you referred to "the OP's question" then referred to "The bonding of the motor to the heated is required", but no heater was in the original question ... unless I keep missing it.

    If you are referring to ... 'if a heater is installed, then, yes, it is required to be bonded to the motor', that I understand.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    544

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    typo "heater"--if installed. Yes,Jerry, I expanded on the OP's post. You caught me!

    "Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret. " Robert E. Lee

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Thanks everyone, even Aaron The Trouble Maker, (kind of like Richard The Lionhearted)
    As I suspected, if I kept out of the fray as much as possible, the discussion would likely conclude back close to my original position.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  35. #35
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Thanks everyone, even Aaron The Trouble Maker, (kind of like Richard The Lionhearted)
    As I suspected, if I kept out of the fray as much as possible, the discussion would likely conclude back close to my original position.
    Jim: OK, I apoligize for my oversharing . . .


  36. #36
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    "No heater was mentioned"

    I would assume the presence of a heater, especially if the unit requires a feeder larger than #12.

    Package units usually have an electric heater, and the heaters are not much larger than a soda bottle. They're easy to miss, and may not be accessible. Hence, my mention of the bonding lug at the power connection point.

    True, a more informed buyer will use a gas heater ... but those will generally have an igniter. The grounding is accomplished through that attachemnt plug. I have seen gas heaters placed 30 ft away from the tub, out of sight, and very well concealed.


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    "No heater was mentioned"

    I would assume the presence of a heater, especially if the unit requires a feeder larger than #12.

    Package units usually have an electric heater, and the heaters are not much larger than a soda bottle. They're easy to miss, and may not be accessible. Hence, my mention of the bonding lug at the power connection point.

    True, a more informed buyer will use a gas heater ... but those will generally have an igniter. The grounding is accomplished through that attachemnt plug. I have seen gas heaters placed 30 ft away from the tub, out of sight, and very well concealed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I wanted to get some opinions on a hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub installation I saw yesterday.
    The entire house is plumbed with copper except the remodeled tub which has copper stubbed up from the slab under the tub and immediately transitioned to CPVC.
    So while copper lines serve the tub, there is 12 to 18 inches of plastic isolating it electrically from the copper and PVC drain lines.
    The copper is available for bonding but the way I understand the requirement, there is no requirement for bonding, just like if the entire house was plumbed with PEX.
    Thoughts?
    Jim,

    To clarify, because it seems there are two distinctly different things being discussed above, do you mean:
    - IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
    - VI. Pools and Tubs for Therapeutic Use
    - VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs

    I think most of us are thinking you are referring to "VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs", I suspect that John is thinking you are referring to "IV. Spas and Hot Tubs".

    The confusion comes from your use of "hydrotherapy (Jacuzzi) tub".

    I tried to clarify that with this post (post #3) above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    First, here is the 2008 NEC.
    - VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs
    - - 680.74 Bonding.
    You closest clarification came in this post (post #18) above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Staying away from the rants and focusing on the issue: from the Jacuzzi installation instructions.
    Just clarifying for John as I suspect he is thinking spa as I have never seen nor heard of a gas heater for a hydromassage tub installed within a bathroom.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    "Hydrotherapy equipment" is the term used in the older reporting form with " Hydro-Massage Therapy Equipment" for the newest required form in my state. My apologies if my original post was not clear.
    The IRC E4109 calls it "Hydromassage Bathtubs" (although I see no definition of the term in the abreviated definition of terms in the IRC)
    And lists this as bonding requirements in E4109.4
    All metal piping systems, metal parts of the electrical ewuipment, and pump motors associated with the hydromassage tub shall be vonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8AWG solid.
    Metal parts fo listed equipment incoroporating an approved system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, noncurrent-carrying metal parts shall not be bonded.


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Bonding of hydrotherapy tub

    Jim,

    That's where you would need to get the definition from the NEC: "Hydromassage Bathtub. A permanently installed bathtub equipped with a recirculating piping system, pump, and associated equipment. It is designed so it can accept, circulate, and discharge water upon each use."

    If you search Google you will find that "hydromassage bathtub" is also an industry used term for the same thing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •