Old 60 amp feeding new 100 amp panel

Bob Lynett · 03-21-2009, 02:39 PM

Hello panel,

I know this is wrong but never seen this configuration before. The old 60 amp fused panel is feeding the new installed 100 amp panel. The wiring is sloppy and I wasn't sure on the wording to apply to this situation? I appreciate this site and all the help as usual!

Bob

Similar Threads:

**ken horak** · 03-21-2009, 04:15 PM

With a quick glance I saw that they installed the bonding strap in the sub panel on the left. Neutrals and grounds must remain seperate if a "sub panel", I saw no main grounding conductors in either panel. Is the Fuse panel the main panel after the meter or is there a disconnect or another panel ahead of this one?

How to write it up -
" complete panel change, to remove old fuse panel,should be completed. Have a licensed and insured electrical contractor evaluate the electrical service including the panels and the grounding of said items "

Bob Lynett · 03-21-2009, 04:35 PM

Thanks Ken,

You pretty much called it! I am recommending a complete re-wire of removing the i(old) panel and re-wire to the new panel. by a licensed electrician.

Bob

Fred Warner · 03-21-2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Lynett

Thanks Ken,

You pretty much called it! I am recommending a complete re-wire of removing the i(old) panel and re-wire to the new panel. by a licensed electrician.

Bob

If it were me, I would not even recommend using the new panel. It's not a main breaker panel and if it were listed for service, you'd still have to use a back-fed main. I would simply recommend a code-compliant service entrance be installed by a licensed (if licensing is actually required in your area) and insured electrician.

Let the electrician decide whether to use the existing (newer) panelboard.

**Jerry Peck** · 03-21-2009, 04:48 PM

Bob,

Not saying that much is right in there, but ...

The "service equipment" is the old panel on the right. It does not need a separate grounding conductor, the grounded conductor serves that purpose.

None of the circuits in the old panel appear to be used other than the old "main" which is now the "main disconnect", did that have fuses in it?

The metal closed nipple looks like it is being used for the "grounding" conductor between the "service equipment" and the "panel", however, it is also likely in concentric or eccentric knock-outs, which is not good and not acceptable, thus it requires a separate grounding conductor.

As Ken said, the neutral in the "panel" on the left needs the ground bond strap removed, however, it also needs the metal cross-over bar removed so the left terminal bar bus can be used for the grounding terminal bar bus. which means all of the neutrals on the left side would need to get moved to the right side, and all of the grounds on the right side would need to get moved to the left side, which would also correct the improper connection where the grounding conductors and neutrals are in the same terminal.

Add to that the breaker feeding the newer "panel" is back-fed and needs to have some type of retainer installed to keep the breaker from being removed without first removing the retainer (no retainer is visible).

Also, in the old panel there appear to be many open knock outs.

Yep, an electrician needs to go over that installation.

Fred Warner · 03-21-2009, 04:58 PM

I do not see any observable grounding electrode system originating from the present fused service equipment. The lack of such an important system should be noted on your report (IMHO).

**Jerry Peck** · 03-21-2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fred Warner

I do not see any observable grounding electrode system originating from the present fused service equipment. The lack of such an important system should be noted on your report (IMHO).

Back then ...

... the grounding electrode was probably connected to the meter.

However, might as well include that with the re-wiring recommendation and let the electrician check it and correct it - excellent idea Fred.

Fred Warner · 03-22-2009, 02:17 AM

A service entrance this antiquated would likely have been required to be grounded. Around my area, it was accomplished by running a #4 varnished cambric, solid copper conductor to the water and another (or sometimes tha same) one to a ground rod or pipe near the panel, but typically outside (not always). Or the GEC might have been a metal-clad single #4 copper run the same way.

Grounding back then, as it is today, was done to stabilize voltage and to protect equipment from lighting strikes.

Bob Lynett · 03-22-2009, 04:18 AM

Fred and Jerry,

I appreciate your comments, sometimes just putting the right words in the report is the hardest thing. There is copper wire right at the base of the 60 amp service running into the painted white conduit and from there about six feet over to the incoming water meter.

**ken horak** · 03-22-2009, 10:03 AM

Yep- A complete new electrical service recommended. To be installed by a licensed and insured Electricla Contractor is in order.

Fred Warner · 03-22-2009, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Bob Lynett

Fred and Jerry,

I appreciate your comments, sometimes just putting the right words in the report is the hardest thing. There is copper wire right at the base of the 60 amp service running into the painted white conduit and from there about six feet over to the incoming water meter.

My pleasure.

**Jerry Peck** · 03-22-2009, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Lynett

Fred and Jerry,

I appreciate your comments, sometimes just putting the right words in the report is the hardest thing. There is copper wire right at the base of the 60 amp service running into the painted white conduit and from there about six feet over to the incoming water meter.

As Fred said, my pleasure and you are welcome.

I don't see a "painted white conduit" so I'm not sure of which wire you are referring to. ... wait, I don't see it because it is white against a white background ... that must be the one you are referring to - looks like there is a red wire going into that fitting too, or is that just an optical illusion from the angle of the photo? Sounds like that is the grounding electrode conductor and is using the underground metal water pipe as a ground?

**ken horak** · 03-22-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Lynett

Thanks Ken,

You pretty much called it! I am recommending a complete re-wire of removing the i(old) panel and re-wire to the new panel. by a licensed electrician.

Bob

I didn't want to be left out

(Ok I'm just having some fun here)
Isn't it nice when we all get along