Thread: ELECTRICAL GROUND FOR ELECTRIC HOUSE PANEL

I NEED TO GROUND MY ELECTRIC PANEL;HOWEVER, THE COLD WATER PIPE AND GAS PIPE IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF MY BUILDING (ON A SLAB). IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY TO PROPERTLY GROUND MY PANEL ALONG WITH THE METAL ROD?

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1) Not enough information describing exactly what your situation is.
2) You will not use your gas pipe as a ground but you will need to make sure it is bonded.
3) This is not a DIY forum

If you don't understand #2 then you need to hire a qualified, licensed electrician.

As Jeff said:

Originally Posted by Jeff Remas

1) Not enough information describing exactly what your situation is.
2) You will not use your gas pipe as a ground but you will need to make sure it is bonded.

However, as you said:

Originally Posted by NICK TUSA

ALONG WITH THE METAL ROD?

IF you are using a proper ground rod to ground two, then you need to install two proper ground rods (one additional one) with the second proper ground rod at least ... AT LEAST ... 6 feet from the first proper ground rod.

Then, the cold water piping *in the house* and the gas line piping all get bonded back to that grounding system - BUT those pipes *are not used for* grounding.

If you do not understand what the above is saying, then, like Jeff, I recommend you contact a competent licensed electrical contractor to verify proper grounding exists, and, if not, to install proper grounding for you.

123456789

Ah, hm, well, ahhh, hm, oh, yup, contact a licensed electrician. That is your best bet. You panel more than likely is already (mybe) grounded. An electrician can test for proper grounding. Grounding is essential for the well being of your service and home and a life safety issue to you. I would suggest for the small fee it will be that you let an electrician service your grounding needs.

Originally Posted by ken horak

1) You need to install 1 ground rod at least 8' in length to start with. ( an unlisted ground rod must be 5/8" and a listed one may be 1/2' diameter)

Ken,

Well, sort of, but not really ...

He will need AT LEAST ONE ground rod, AND THEN prove that it has less than 25 ohms to earth, or ...

He will need AT LEAST TWO ground rods at least 6 feet apart, and not have to worry about proving anything.



Installing just the first ground rod is only the first step in a two step process, take the second step and measure the resistance, and maybe need to drive in a second ground rod anyway, or, just skip the second step and drive in a second ground rod anyway.

Yes, there are other options, however, Nick stated that his cold water pipe was on the other side of the building - so that is not really an option while just driving a second rod at least 6 feet away is.

Jerry read 250.50 all grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served SHALL be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist,one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52 (A)(4) through (A)(8) Shall be installed.

250.52 (A) (1) - Underground water pipe

Also read 250.53(D) (2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground WATER PIPE shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52 (A)(2) through (A)(8). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod,pipe, or plate type it shall comply with 250.56

250.56 Resistance of Rod,Pipe,and Plate Electrodes. A SINGLE ELECTRODE consisting of rod,pipe or plate that does not have a resistance to ground of 25 ohms or less shall be augmented by one additional electrode of any type specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8)

Water pipe IS available - 250.50 tells us that we MUST use it .
250.50 points us to 250.52 (A) (1)
250.52 (A) (1) also tells us that the Grounding Electrode Conductor must be attached to the water pipe with in 5' of where it enters the structure and to jump the water meter

250.53 (D) (2)tells us that we need a supplemental electrode and tells us what to use (250.56)

250.56 tells us if we are using a SINGLE Electrode that is a rod,pipe,or plate that it must have 25 ohms or less to ground. If not we need to add an additional electrode.

Here's where your a tiny bit confused- Water pipe is present - It MUST be used. This is Electrode number 1, then he chooses to use a rod for his supplemental electrode,this is Electrode number 2. These are bonded together in the panel on the ground bar.

250.56 Does not come into play as he now has two(2) electrodes and not a single electrode as described in 250.56.
The code does not give you the option not use the water just because of where it's located and how difficult it may be to get to it. If all else fails run it in conduit underground,around the outside of the building.

Ken Horak,

You are assuming his water service main is metalic and is 10 ft. outside buried and comes through the slab continuous without a union or other isolating break.

Might not be. Espeically in post-Katrina country (Biloxi, MS).

But if it is, then I agree, he must use it as the primary earthing and within 5 feet of its entrance.

EDIT to include:

250.52(1)(A) Metal Underground Water Pipe.
(underscore for emphasis is mine).

Ken,

Read Nick's post.

He is asking HOW TO properly ground it.

Most of the things you listed are not available.

Thus, the BEST answer to Nick's question as stated is to simply add a second ground rod ... at least 6 feet from the first ground rod.

Concrete encased electrode? Present? Yep, probably, but on an existing building he is not required to chip concrete out to get to it.

Underground water pipe? Present? Yep, but nothing says it is metal, also, it is all the way on the other side of his building and thus not practical to get to for that purpose.

Same goes for the other approved grounding electrodes.

As others have said, including yourself, not only read the code, but you need to understand the code and the conditions present - and for the conditions present, re-read Nick's post.

The answer will appear before your eyes: Drive a second ground rod at least 6 feet from the existing ground rod.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Underground water pipe? Present? Yep, but nothing says it is metal, also, it is all the way on the other side of his building and thus not practical to get to for that purpose.

Same goes for the other approved grounding electrodes.

As others have said, including yourself, not only read the code, but you need to understand the code and the conditions present - and for the conditions present, re-read Nick's post.

The answer will appear before your eyes: Drive a second ground rod at least 6 feet from the existing ground rod.

Jerry,

Please re-read the section Ken posted. Provided the water line is metallic for at least 10 foot earth contact it MUST be used as the primary means. The code does not say "if practical". Rods could be one of the methods to supplement the water line.

If present (metal underground water pipe) it must be bonded, if this is not an industrial or commercial installation that meets the exception to 250.52(1)(A).

The exception to 250.50 does not include an inconvenient path.

Ken Horak made a valid case, btw so must 250.52(A)(2) as well, if present.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Jerry,

Please re-read the section Ken posted. Provided the water line is metallic

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

If present (metal underground water pipe) it must be bonded,

Both of you, and Ken, need to re-read what you have been writing, think about it, re-read Nick's post, and think about it.

ALL OF YOU are applying ASSUMPTIONS to information NOT GIVEN and NOT stating you are applying ASSUMPTIONS.

The answer, AS THE QUESTION WAS ASKED, does NOT include a metal underground water pipe, and THUS, THAT IS NOT ONE OF THE OPTIONS.

Now, if you want to put YOUR ASSUMPTIONS on the line, then clearly state YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and state that IF THOSE ASSUMPTIONS are correct, then the answer is blah, blah, blah.

Doing that remove all the doubt you raise by simply stating something is required to be, or not required to be, a certain way based on information NOT PROVIDED.

It is real simple, others do it, I do it, all you have to do is say: I presume (or assume, your preference for whichever word you want to use) that blah, blah, blah (listing your assumptions) in which case blah, blah, blah (giving your answer).

Know what? *IF* your assumptions are correct, then you are correct. *IF* your assumptions are not correct, you are not incorrect, what you said simply does not apply as the assumptions were off. And we all not what happens when ASSUMPTIONS are made, they are based on what is ASS*U*MEd to be the case.

It is seldom that all the information needed is given in a question, so, our answers need to provide all of the assumptions we are applying to the question.

Simply answering the question without stating the assumptions makes that answer incorrect ... unless the answer also fits the limited information given, which is not often the case.

Fred has a great phrase he uses: the picture needs to be painted more (or something to that affect) so we can see what you are talking about.

The three of you simply state your answers and not the ASSUMPTIONS you have applied to the question, and then, when you are incorrect, you try to go back and add the proper assumptions in then. Which is too late. ADD YOUR ASSUMPTIONS FIRST, then give your answers based on that picture you painted, only then can what you post be taken at full value.

Some of the posts above have started adding the assumptions ... AFTER STATING what is required. WRONG!

It is not REQUIRED until the ASSUMPTIONS are stated FIRST.

I have a go-kart which will go 200 mph. Yep. Yessiree.

That is, 200 mph scale. Huh? WTH does that mean? 200 mph scale? Why, that means that it is a scaled down race car, 1/4 size, and 50 mph is 200 mph scale!

See? It makes no sense to add the assumptions and conditions last. Put them right out there first.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Jerry,

Please re-read the section Ken posted. Provided the water line is metallic for at least 10 foot earth contact it MUST be used as the primary means. The code does not say "if practical". Rods could be one of the methods to supplement the water line.

What part of this was not clear? This allowed for the option of a non-metallic line. i was reiterating that it needed to be used IF it meet the conditions.

I was responding to the part where you seemed to say that if it was not practical to use the water line you could just drive 2 rods. as you seemed to say in this quote

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yes, there are other options, however, Nick stated that his cold water pipe was on the other side of the building - so that is not really an option while just driving a second rod at least 6 feet away is.

You also said a ufer could be ignored as it cannot be accessed due to the concrete. The code says if present it needs to be used. If it is encased it would be present, unless you can figure out how to encase something not present.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

IF you are using a proper ground rod to ground two, then you need to install two proper ground rods (one additional one) with the second proper ground rod at least ... AT LEAST ... 6 feet from the first proper ground rod.

Then, the cold water piping *in the house* and the gas line piping all get bonded back to that grounding system - BUT those pipes *are not used for* grounding.

It is seldom that all the information needed is given in a question, so, our answers need to provide all of the assumptions we are applying to the question.

Simply answering the question without stating the assumptions makes that answer incorrect ... unless the answer also fits the limited information given, which is not often the case.

etc, etc, etc

Jerry, it seems to me that you made a huge unstated assumption in that first post that NICK's water pipe was not metallic and then proceeded to tell him how to ground his house without stating that assumption. Yes, some have also posted with unstated assumptions but I hardly feeel you are the one to lecture them about it in this case. Something about people in glass houses...


From Ken Horak's first post...(my bold, underline)

2) If you have at least 10' of metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth ,coming into your house, you need to run a GROUNDING Electrode Conductor ( ground wire) to this water line. You must attach the GROUNDING Electrode Conductor to the water line WITHIN 5' of where it enters the building. The size of the GROUNDING Electrode Conductor will be based on the size of the electrical service. Table 250.66 in the NEC

Seems clear enough!

Originally Posted by Jim Port

What part of this was not clear? This allowed for the option of a non-metallic line. i was reiterating that it needed to be used IF it meet the conditions.

I'll give you that part as IN THIS CASE (which is what I was replying to) Ken did include *IF* "2) If you have at least 10' of metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth ,coming into your house, you need to run a GROUNDING Electrode Conductor ( ground wire) to this water line.", thus, in this case I was incorrect to jump on Ken for that.

However, that is (what I was referring to) a common practice you, Ken and especially, especially, Watson does - make statements without prestating the assumptions and conditions for which the answer is applicable.

For the posts above, I was wrong.

Now for your turn to acknowledge being wrong.

You also said a ufer could be ignored as it cannot be accessed due to the concrete. The code says if present it needs to be used. If it is encased it would be present, unless you can figure out how to encase something not present.

Jim,

How to ignore a concrete encased electrode and have it code compliant?

Jim, you really need to read the code, like the last time ...

From the 2008 NEC. (bold and underlining are mine)
- III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding Electrode Conductor
- - 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
- - - All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
- - - - Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.

Your turn to eat crow.

Here, I'll pass the mustard, it helps some, the Tabasco helps a little more if you don't mind hot stuff, it's right over there.

Long winded diatribe about other's assumptions then admitting a limited personal error complete with additional personal digs.

I clarified at the summary of Ken Horak's argument the presumptive IF and the missed word from the title subsection.

Second time I posted I included the IF as well.

Yet More "Watson" digs. GIVE IT UP PECK.

Now we have to debate what the meaning of IF is.....UGH! Like the famous "depends on what the meaning of IS is

JERRY PECK is demanding that we have to explain logic and how to reason: IF...THEN statements to the "codeman" ??

If he can't follow along more than a singular paragraph or a selective word search of a CD? and defend code construction logic? Why? because HE demands we overcome his blinders to basic reasoning?

I've had enough from the word-twisting flip-flopping, logic absent, selective reading; self-appointed: spelling, grammar, bulletin board decorum/dominatrix, bully, code expert?

Speaking of ASS...U...ME. Just when did JERRY PECK ASSUME the CODE THRONE? Did I miss the coronation? Did he anoint himself?

I am so sick of the attitude that everybody is all wrong all of the time and JERRY PECK is right all of the time about every thing and is the most perfect and his poop never stinks, GURU on the Mountaintop, crud.

I'm especially sick of the attitude that we have to PROVE something to HIM. I've seen him DEMAND this of others DEMAND others prove something to HIM...its a JOKE!

No we don't. And when we chose not to it does NOT prove him right or us wrong.

HE isn't the boss of anyone, he isn't the judge, he's not the authority - he ain't no CODE KING and yes poop still stinks even if there's no one there to smell it other than the proud producer.

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

Jerry, it seems to me that you made a huge unstated assumption in that first post that NICK's water pipe was not metallic and then proceeded to tell him how to ground his house without stating that assumption. Yes, some have also posted with unstated assumptions but I hardly feeel you are the one to lecture them about it in this case. Something about people in glass houses...

Well Said!

Except his first position was that it wasn't available due to distance! He didn't develop the "excuse of assuming the water service was not metallic until I suggested/pointed out that was a real possiblity, that's when he jumped on and adopted that premise.

Then around the wagon about how it wasn't available due to distance.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ken,

Well, sort of, but not really ...

Yes, there are other options, however, Nick stated that his cold water pipe was on the other side of the building - so that is not really an option while just driving a second rod at least 6 feet away is.

He didn't take on the metalic/non-metalic not sufficient for earth/grounding until after I posted!

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Long winded diatribe .

.
After reading ( most of Postings. )

I agree You are a Persistent Windbag.
.

Everybody reread everything!

Watson,

You still have, what is it now, 3-4-5 and more postings/threads where you have been shown to have been wrong and still have not shown you are man enough to admit your mistakes.

AND YOU ARE COMPLAINING THAT I DID admit my mistake?

Watson, you sure are a piece of cake, ... the crumb which gets discarded into the trash because no one wants it.

(sigh)

The NEC is pretty clear on the fact that if an electrode is present it HAS to be used. The OP alluded to the fact that his problem with using the water pipe was distance, not the fact it wasn't metallic or didn't have the required contact with the earth.

IF the pipe enters the slab as a metal pipe it needs to be treated as an electrode. You then add all other additional (and required) permitted electrodes OR a required supplimental electrode and you're done. If any other electrodes are already present they must all be used and no ground rods are required.

The above accomplishes a required GEC connection to the pipe if in fact it is an electrode and the required bonding whether or not the pipe is in fact an electrode. Simple as that.

Metal gas pipes aren't used as grounding electrodes but must be bonded.

Absent any other input from the OP this is the answer.

As to the OP, he probably has no business doing the work anyway - but then THAT'S the issue that should have generated a bunch of extra input.

Not wrong, nothing to admit. Your creative manipulations don't change the truth or facts, nor your illogical thought processes.

Presentation of an IF ...then statement: the IF conditions, the presumptive existance of a circumstance; followed by THEN, the required application when the presumptive circumstances are present.

Unlike Jerry Peck, these were made correctly by others.

The first several posts in the string already pointed out this was not a DIY site and referred the OP to an electrical contractor.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Not wrong, nothing to admit.

That would be the thought process of someone totally devoid of any sense of honesty and ethics, which, in your other posts, you have shown you lack.

I find it truly amazing that you have been able to baffle with bull everyone to this point in your life that you think you can do so here too.

referring to the grounding the electric house panel post... It is just so funny reading your posts to one another. I have never laughed out loud so much when reading any blog ever, assuming that I have un-never read blogs before. My eyes are still watering.

Nick: you're gonna have to get to "the other side" with a wire, service ground electrode code qualified or not. If the water system is metallic the wire will have to be sized as a service ground. If the water system is not metallic, the gas line is and must be bonded along with any significant metallic portion of the water line. The wire size will differ a bit depending on whether it's a main service grounding electrode or just being bonded. Either way, it's go around, under, over, through or any combination there-of. Oh yea; go with the electrician recommendations.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
After reading ( most of Postings. )

I agree You are a Persistent Windbag.
.

Have mercy Billy. I donno where you found that stallion in the photo, but I'm sure the female viewers will get weak knees viewing him