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  1. #1
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    Default Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    What more needs to be said.

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  2. #2
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Great picture of ceiling-mounted paddle fan installed in tub/shower location. No doubt that excessive moisture over time could have a deleterious effect on the fixture, possibly affecting the ability of the equipment grounding conductor to safetly carry fault-current.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    What more needs to be said.

    Really, really bad tile job?

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    How about this LCD tv that I found at a tub surround wall. The TV is mounted behind a piece of Lexan and surrounded by tile?

    Lots of tile in this house.

    rick

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Not only is the fan/non flush mounted fixture with pull chains not allowed over the tub but the presence of the hand held shower wand would further restrict lighting and ventilation options over the tub.

    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules over the tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.

    EDIT to include:

    Could go on about the issues with the wand as pictured flooding the rim, air gap but won't. Doubt the wand has vacuum breaker either looks like a Wal-mart special, risking contamination of the potable water supply in addition to being a trip hazard floating as it does.


  6. #6
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    .........................
    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules over the tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.

    ......................
    I see nothing in the NEC that changes the dimensions of the tub zone or the shower zone because of the presence of a shower wand. Please point that out. If I were to issue a citation, what electrical code provision would I use?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    I see nothing in the NEC that changes the dimensions of the tub zone or the shower zone because of the presence of a shower wand. Please point that out. If I were to issue a citation, what electrical code provision would I use?
    Who said the dimmensions of the zone would be changed? I sure didn't. That's something you invented.

    I said when applying those 6 & 8' rules the presence of the hand held shower wand (as opposed to a fixed directional shower head) would envoke a wet location fixture installation requirement (not just damp location) since it could be sujected to water spray from the hand held shower wand can be turned in any direction including UP like a fountain.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules over the tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules ...
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I said when applying those 6 & 8' rules the presence of the hand held shower wand (as opposed to a fixed directional shower head) would envoke a wet location fixture installation requirement (not just damp location) since it could be sujected to water spray from the hand held shower wand can be turned in any direction including UP like a fountain.

    What 6 foot rule?

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  9. #9
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Who said the dimmensions of the zone would be changed? I sure didn't. That's something you invented.

    I said when applying those 6 & 8' rules the presence of the hand held shower wand (as opposed to a fixed directional shower head) would envoke a wet location fixture installation requirement (not just damp location) since it could be sujected to water spray from the hand held shower wand can be turned in any direction including UP like a fountain.
    680.72 hydromassage rules revert back to 410.10(D) for luminaires in a tub/shower zone. Your invention of a "6 foot rule" is unsubstantiated. Changing the dimension from "8 feet" to "6 feet" is not my invention, it is yours.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Not only is the fan/non flush mounted fixture with pull chains not allowed over the tub but the presence of the hand held shower wand would further restrict lighting and ventilation options over the tub.

    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules overthe tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.

    EDIT to include:

    Could go on about the issues with the wand as pictured flooding the rim, air gap but won't. Doubt the wand has vacuum breaker either looks like a Wal-mart special, risking contamination of the potable water supply in addition to being a trip hazard floating as it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Who said the dimmensions of the zone would be changed? I sure didn't. That's something you invented.

    I said when applying those 6 & 8' rules the presence of the hand held shower wand (as opposed to a fixed directional shower head) would envoke a wet location fixture installation requirement (not just damp location) since it could be sujected to water spray from the hand held shower wand can be turned in any direction including UP like a fountain.
    Who mentioned NEC, did I?

    shower bathtub combo compartment, wall surface type should be 6'.

    Operating from (possibly faulty) memory as to what adoptions in location

    The hanging switch chains and low tile height on the walls was referring to more than just tub issues in play due to presence of the hand held shower wand. Rick Hurst's photos show appliances/devices cord and plug within five (now six foot rule 2008 ) feet from a hydromasage bathtub.

    Since you brought up NEC, and for whatever reason think I was refering to it for a six foot rule I'll give you one, turn to 2008, and not assuming this hydromassage bathtub is actually in a contained bathroom (for example installed on the bedroom side of a master): The 2008 edition of the NEC expanded requirement for GFCI protected receptacles from 5 feet perimeter zone to SIX feet for hydromassage bathtubs at Section 680.71. Could apply to Rick Hurst's photos depending on time/location adoptions. So there's your 6 ft rule for a hydromassage bathtub zone.

    Your NEC citations bit unclear as you didn't reference an edition and the section language changes as does the numbering. NEC 2005 the articles would be 410.4(A) and 410.4(D) for requirement of damp or wet location and for the 3' out by 8' high zone of restrictions for other than flush mounted or recessed and protected luminaires over a tub or shower. BUT in the 2008 edition NEC the similar but enhanced language can be found at 410.10(A) and 410.10(D).

    In addtion all the appropriate and applicable rules from chapters 1-4 regarding bathroom installations are applicable to hydromassage bathtub areas whether in a bathroom or not.

    But which details are applicable I haven't checked since when I first responded I for whatever reason did not read the location for Erby Crofutt correctly (for whatever reason I was thinking the Ohio Gov's flip flops on 2008/2005 for residential, and I was also referring to plumbing, wall finishes and general clearance for paddle fan/ceiling fixture rules.

    Need another NEC 6' rule? consider moving the offending ceiling fan/light into the room area and beyond the 3'x8' zone, or replacing with more appropriate luminaires for that cove and/or exaust fan unit with or without integral light and desiring to relocate position more effective for exaust or more central for lighting? and use the 6' max tap length rule that's pretty much unchanged 2005/2008.


  11. #11
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.
    .........................
    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules over the tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.

    ......................



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fred Warner
    I see nothing in the NEC that changes the dimensions of the tub zone or the shower zone because of the presence of a shower wand. Please point that out. If I were to issue a citation, what electrical code provision would I use?


    Since this post is in the "Electrical Forum" and you made a statement having to do with electrical zone(s) above a tub/shower, it was reasonable for me to assume you were referring to the NEC, which by the way, is exactly what you were doing.
    So in the interest of being accurate, please answer my question. Here it is:
    I see nothing in the NEC that changes the dimensions of the tub zone or the shower zone because of the presence of a shower wand. Please point that out. If I were to issue a citation, what electrical code provision would I use?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Who mentioned NEC, did I?
    Yep, YOU sure did make reference to "IT".

    (bold and red text is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules over the tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.


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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    <---still looking in NEC for the spray wand rule. Am I missing the applicable section?


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt View Post
    <---still looking in NEC for the spray wand rule. Am I missing the applicable section?

    Michael,

    Yeah, I can't find it either.

    I know what Watson is talking about, but, as usual, he is way off base, so far off base that he is in the next ballpark over.

    Give him a chance though and he will claim he just hit a home run out of the park and that is why you cannot find the ball.

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  15. #15
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt View Post
    <---still looking in NEC for the spray wand rule. Am I missing the applicable section?
    Even though H.G. Watson attempts to overcome (by confutation) his reference to the NEC, he actually is drawing from the text in the 2008 NEC edition at 410.10(D) that requires "marked" (for wet locations) luminaires where such fixtures are subject to shower spray. This text, of course, does not introduce the "6-feet" rule he continues to espouse.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Fred,

    That 'wet location' / 'shower spray' wording was first added to the 2005 NEC.

    That is why I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I know what Watson is talking about, but, as usual, he is way off base, so far off base that he is in the next ballpark over.
    Another way to state it is that he is on the right track, just took the wrong train.



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  17. #17
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,


    Another way to state it is that he is on the right track, just took the wrong train.

    Rider: "Conductor, why is this train going so slow...?"
    Conductor: "There's cattle on the track ahead!"
    Rider: "Too bad this train wasn't like the one I took from Bangor to Augusta that left the station so fast I kissed a cow goodbye instead of my wife."
    Conductor: "If you don't like this train, why don't you get off and walk?"
    Rider: "I would, but my folks aren't expecting me until later."
    Rider: "Conductor, why have we slowed down again?"
    Conductor: "We've caught up with those cows, again!"
    Rider: "Conductor, why is the train finally running so smoothly?"
    Conductor: "We've jumped the track!"


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    People!

    When applying

    6 & 8 foot rules (not just electrical chapters)

    OVER Luminaire rules

    Not just referring to hydromassage or bathtub/bathroom electrical rules.

    And Chapter 1-4 rules and definitions of dry, damp and wet locations been around for a long time in the NEC.

    However, this "area" of the forum is not limited to NEC in its applications, neither is the NEC itself.

    Other rules besides electrical are in play.

    MY POINT was that this was not "just" a tub, and not "just" a hydromassage bathtub, AND that it is not necessarily a BATHROOM.

    MY POINT was that this is a combination shower/tub compartment area due to the presence of the hand-held shower wand!!!!!!!! The wall surface/tiled area is too short no curtain or protection is pictured. Others including the "critic" made mention of TILE JOB which of course has nothing to do with the NEC.

    The original post was simply: "What more needs to be said" and was titled "Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience".

    Get a grip on and get over yourselves.

    Edit: sticky keys missed the "in" in luminaire


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Watson,

    You simply cannot, it is beyond your power to control, you simply cannot post a post without a negative remark about another's post.

    It is an impossibility for you to do so.

    (sigh)


    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    What more needs to be said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Really, really bad tile job?
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Others including the "critic" made mention of TILE JOB which of course has nothing to do with the NEC.
    Watson, do you not recognize the progression of the responses and how the thread developed?

    That the point in time the tile was commented on the thread was simply "What more needs to be said." Do you simply not comprehend simple things like progression of activities and information?

    You simply have no concept of how to use a board like this and no concept of what you should post or act. You have a controlling nature which you cannot keep inside you, and regardless how much you try, it simply comes out in your posts as you try so hard to control what goes on with others and their posts.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Wrong train!!! Wrong train!!! ALL ABOARD! ALL ABOARD!


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Twist twist. Despite your insistance the only issues that can be brought up on point to this post string and in this topic area must be reference from the NEC and contort someone else's post to meanings that were not included - you don't rule this board or topic area.

    It ain't all found in the NEC.

    Examples by the way of indoor location wet areas are in chapter 3. They go back far beyond 2002 but you can reference 300.6 for some examples if you're so inclined. Frequently washed walls where there are surfaces of absorbent materials, etc. in 2002 300.6 & 300.6(C), in 2005 300.6(D)

    2002 changed the definition for Location, Damp, Luminaire, Listed, and Premises Wiring (System). Location, Dry and Location, Wet were unchanged.

    However the language of 2002 NEC 410.4(A) & (D) and 410.24 are sufficient to require any luminaire in this location to be a wet location requirement.

    Shower compartments protected walls 6 feet not in electrical rules.

    You might check the definition of a hydromassage bathtub and 2002 NEC 680.72 & 680.74 and see that they were unchanged. DIY not bonding metalic supply to a handheld shower wand is often overlooked.

    You'd have had nothing on point of the original post had I not posted. That you didn't GET that I was referring to wall finish/plumbing and SHOWER compartment rules over and before a tub zone that's your own DEFICIENCY. I never implied I was referring only to the NEC, despite your insistance otherwise.

    And your own history stalking and digging and stirring up manure is well documented.

    No matter how many times you try to play king of the hill, YOU are not the BOSS of ME or anyone else on this board.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Twist twist. Despite your insistance the only issues that can be brought up on point to this post string and in this topic area must be reference from the NEC and contort someone else's post to meanings that were not included - you don't rule this board or topic area.

    It ain't all found in the NEC.
    Watson,

    Do you ever learn anything? Can you read things? And understand them?

    Your posts, confirmed by your last post above, indicates all the answers are 'No.'.

    I can see that no further attempts at trying to explain it to you will be of any use, because, as Fred so aptly put it ... WRONG TRAIN! WRONG TRAIN! ... you have again gotten onto the wrong train heading in the wrong direction - I saw your ticket, it was stamped "CLEVELAND" and the train you are on is heading to "DEATH VALLEY", so be it.

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Sigh.

    I said:

    Not only is the fan/non flush mounted fixture with pull chains not allowed over the tub but the presence of the hand held shower wand would further restrict lighting and ventilation options over the tub.

    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, supply, box due to the presence of the hand held and non-contained shower wand, thus subject to directional water spray when applying the 6 & 8 ft rules overthe tub/rim bathroom luminaire type rules, the pendant/paddle fan restrictions over tub zone rules, plus the hydromassage tub rules.

    EDIT to include:

    Could go on about the issues with the wand as pictured flooding the rim, air gap but won't. Doubt the wand has vacuum breaker either looks like a Wal-mart special, risking contamination of the potable water supply in addition to being a trip hazard floating as it does.
    and

    Who said the dimmensions of the zone would be changed? I sure didn't. That's something you invented.

    I said when applying those 6 & 8' rules the presence of the hand held shower wand (as opposed to a fixed directional shower head) would envoke a wet location fixture installation requirement (not just damp location) since it could be sujected to water spray from the hand held shower wand can be turned in any direction including UP like a fountain.
    I was referring to R307.2 the "six foot rule" regarding the required wall finish height.

    There is also the six foot-eight inch rule (exception over R305 "7 foot rule) for ceiling height clearance, that being Ceiling height exception distinct to bathrooms 6 foot 8 inches chapter 3, related codes and constraints section. See Figure 3-21.

    And the Chapter 27 rules regarding the application.

    all OVER the application of the 8' zone (out 3') restriction on the dropped light fixture and paddle fan.

    And outlining these and a wet location being required here (not merely a damp location, and by no means a dry location) fixture replacement DUE TO THE PRESENCE OF THE SHOWER WAND - which CONTAINS A SHOWER HEAD.

    THIS WAS ON POINT, both in the ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENT DEFECTS and the WALL SURFACE DEFECTS.

    RIGHT TRAIN. responding to "what else is there to say" and pointing out the title "Nice Two Person TUB - Shocking Experience"

    Was pictured a hydromassage bathtub combination SHOWER COMPARTMENT.

    GEEZUS some of you have BLINDERS ON and are EXTREMELY SHORT SIGHTED.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    .......Not only is the fan/non flush mounted fixture with pull chains not allowed over the tub but the presence of the hand held shower wand would further restrict lighting and ventilation options over the tub....................

    It would require wet location fixture not damp location, .........
    The above is the introduction on your first post in this thread. You've established a ceiling-mounted paddle fan as being "not permitted" above the tub/shower zone. You go on to state that a "wet location" fixture would be required due to the presence of a shower wand. Since the NEC is the generally accepted reference standard which is referenced from the building code, where are you getting this information if not from the NEC?

    Just own up to the fact that you're referring to the NEC and you simply slipped up and fashioned a non-existent rule (6 feet).

    Or, produce the actual text in whatever code it is you're citing.

    People involved in trades make mis-statements a lot. It's no big deal. Why go ON & ON? Fess up and get over it! I certainly won't hold it against you...I learn from your posts here, too.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Shower head fixed? No its on a wand on a hose.

    Apply the rules. Its not "just" a 2-person "tub", its not "just" a "two person hydromassage bathtub" - due to the presence of the SHOWER WAND.

    And we have a wet location for anything on the ceiling due to the presence of the SHOWER WAND, which contains a shower head, but is not fixed therefore the ceiling can be washed frequently by the uncontained shower wand, as can the walls and the area surrounding.

    The presence of baby shampoo and baby wash are reminders that children may use the tub (and shower wand).

    Like it or lump it my original post was referring to the 6 & 8 foot rules not just electrical, relative to the pictured installation.

    (I have explained more than once your interpretation of what I SAID was wrong, and previously directed you to 2008 NEC 680.71 and informed you that in 2005 the zone was five feet from outside of, and 2002 was five feet from inside wall of the hydromassage bathtub. I also previously cited 2002, 2005 and 2008 NEC for the 8' (up and 3 foot out) zone as with different edition the citations are different. I additionally and continuously expressed that NOT ONLY NEC rules applied regarding this zone and have cited Chapter 27, and Chapter 3 of the IRC, and been specific regarding citation for the "six foot rule" and the exception for ceiling clearance being 6'8". And directed you to the appropriate section of Chapter 3 and an illustration.)

    You have only to look them up and read them. Can lead a horse to water can't make him drink!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-09-2009 at 03:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Look it up Fred Warner, I cited IRC in the post immediately prior to your most recent post. I've indicated what the rule was I was referring to (wall finish height) over and over. If you're not familiar tough. I'm NOT going to cut and paste copyrighted material.


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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Fred,

    It is a losing battle with Watson, you cannot explain something to someone who "knows they know it all" and will not accept the fact that they do not.

    It is also hard to explain things to someone who will not listen, read, and think.

    Combine the above two together in one, such as Watson, and the case is hopeless, all we can do is keep up the good watch and warn the others of his presence when he stumbles into the room spreading unrelated information as though it were the truth, none of which he even tries to back up with specifics - probably because he cannot back anything up.

    (sigh)

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Dang! This is more fun than watching the guy grease the Tilt-A-Whirl at the county fair!

    How about this little diagram. I think it makes it kind of simple! Anyone found that 6' rule yet?

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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt View Post
    <---still looking in NEC for the spray wand rule. Am I missing the applicable section?
    You're looking in the wrong chapter of the IRC.

    Try Chapter 3 and Chapter 27.

    Its a shower head. The shower head is not fixed restraining its location or direction it is installed on a wand and further installed on a hose, it is photographed resting on a holding mount/bracket, it is not fixed there.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    It is a losing battle with Watson, you cannot explain something to someone who "knows they know it all" and will not accept the fact that they do not.

    It is also hard to explain things to someone who will not listen, read, and think.

    Combine the above two together in one, such as Watson, and the case is hopeless, all we can do is keep up the good watch and warn the others of his presence when he stumbles into the room spreading unrelated information as though it were the truth, none of which he even tries to back up with specifics - probably because he cannot back anything up.

    (sigh)
    Jerry, in my many years in codes and standards, I have learned all too well that some persons experience difficulty in acquiring the quality of being in accordance with facts. They misinterpret, understand and explain incorrectly. They delude by wrongful notions and deceive by deliberate misrepresentation. They betray the trust one develops in them for purposes that are not always clear to those affected. And not once does it occur to them to give up their resentments or desires to punish and become inclined to work together in reach of common goals. In your words, "(sigh)".


  31. #31
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Jerry, in my many years in codes and standards, I have learned all too well that some persons experience difficulty in acquiring the quality of being in accordance with facts. They misinterpret, understand and explain incorrectly. They delude by wrongful notions and deceive by deliberate misrepresentation. They betray the trust one develops in them for purposes that are not always clear to those affected. And not once does it occur to them to give up their resentments or desires to punish and become inclined to work together in reach of common goals. In your words, "(sigh)".
    Was that Abe Lincoln that said that. If not you should become a polition Fred


  32. #32
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Was that Abe Lincoln that said that. If not you should become a polition Fred
    Ted, those words were entirely crafted by me. As you well know, codes are political. Ask any code enforcement official. (I'm not a politician, though.)


  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
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    Default Re: Nice Two Person Tub - Shocking Experience

    Here's another tub with light fixtures. This one already has the little angel waiting to take you away.

    rick

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