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Thread: Acceptable Tie?

  1. #1
    Rick Burkman's Avatar
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    Default Acceptable Tie?

    This service has a hot wire and a bare neutral tied together with a piece of twisted wire. Is this allowed? Do you know the code reference that either allows or disallows this? Thanks!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Rick,

    Well ... first of all that is not an approved cable tie.

    Second ... that is just dumb ... any Sparky should know that sparks happen that way (which is why he is called a Sparky ).

    And, other than not being an approved cable tie, no, the code does not address stupidity.

    However, you also wrote up that white wire being used as a hot from the breaker and not being "permanently re-identified by painting" along its entire length and at all locations where that white conductor is visible and accessible, I am sure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rick,


    However, you also wrote up that white wire being used as a hot from the breaker and not being "permanently re-identified by painting" along its entire length and at all locations where that white conductor is visible and accessible, I am sure.
    I don't remember seeing the word "paint" in 210.5C. Is it somewhere else?


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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I don't remember seeing the word "paint" in 210.5C. Is it somewhere else?

    Read 200.7(A) and (C).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    2008 NEC®©110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
    Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.

    Since the NEC doesn't require all cable and wire straps and/or ties to be listed, workmanship is the issue here. Whether or not it is a violation would depend on the inspector - like to think a pro wouldn't do this but suspect otherwise.

    And, for Jerry:


    2008 NEC®© 200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
    (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.
    The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).

    (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.

    What this means is that the wire needs to have an indication it isn't being used as a grounded conductor.



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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    What this means is that the wire needs to have an indication it isn't being used as a grounded conductor.
    For Bill,

    What it means is that it needs a PERMANENT color change, NOT TAPE as tape is not permanent.

    Tape (as in phase tape) is permissible for changing black to red, brown, etc. (any other ungrounded conductor color), or for changing red to black, brown, etc. (any ungrounded other conductor color), but ... tape is not acceptable for changing white to any ungrounded conductor color - the re-identification method is required to be permanent and tape is not.

    I do admit that I said ""permanently re-identified by painting" along its entire length and at all locations where that white conductor is visible and accessible" and that the code says "at its termination", but at least I got your attention on it - so now define "at its termination" ...

    1/32"? 1/16"? 1/4"? 1/2"? 3/4"? 1"? the entire length visible and accessible to its termination? Go for it. And provide back up documentation for your definition.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  7. #7
    Rick Burkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Jerry,

    I did catch the white-coated wire, but thanks for the heads up. The way I put it in the report is "There is a white-coated wire that is being used as a hot wire - wires used in this manner should be permanently colored [black] to reflect their hot status."


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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    ter⋅mi⋅na⋅tion  [tur-muh-ney-shuhn] –noun 1.the act of terminating2.the fact of being terminated.3.the place or part where anything terminates; bound or limit.4.an end or extremity; close or conclusion.5.an issue or result.6.Grammar. a suffix or ending.7.an ending of employment with a specific employer.

    This would be from dictionary.com


    Sorry Jerry, you don't get to interpret the NEC for me. The intent is that the wire be easily identified at the termination. I say close is an inch . Really don't care what it means to you.


    The NEC makes it clear it isn't a manual to be used other than by trained persons. Someone who doesn't recognize a colored marking other than gray, white, or green means a white wire isn't an ungrounded conductor doesn't have any business messing with it. If entire exposed length was required to be marked, that's what it would say.


    As to the paint being more permanent than tape that's a bit of speculation. Yes, tape can be removed with effort and I can scrape paint off with my thumbnail. I can slice shrink sleeve off with a knife. Cheap imported tape may fall off the wire. Cheap paint may fall off as soon as the wire is moved or bent.


    Not removeable without effort is as close to permanent as you get. Listed coding tape is accepted by most reasonable people. And, that's probably the rub here.


    Now if you're willing to get on board that masking tape written on with a pencil or a paper label tied on with string isn't permanent I think we agree (yes, both were common in old work).




    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 04-16-2009 at 08:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Acceptable Tie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    For Bill,

    1/32"? 1/16"? 1/4"? 1/2"? 3/4"? 1"? the entire length visible and accessible to its termination? Go for it. And provide back up documentation for your definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Sorry Jerry, you don't get to interpret the NEC for me. The intent is that the wire be easily identified at the termination. I say close is an inch .
    Okay, so now you are applying the interpretation - no problem.

    However, each inspectors interpretation of at the termination varies - which was my point.

    Really don't care what it means to you.


    Not a problem for me, seems like it is to you, though.


    Listed coding tape is accepted by most reasonable people. And, that's probably the rub here.


    Accepted by most reasonable people for markings not required to be permanent, yes. Most reasonable people recognize tape as not permanent.

    Are you saying that the rub is that you are unreasonable?

    Now if you're willing to get on board that masking tape written on with a pencil or a paper label tied on with string isn't permanent I think we agree (yes, both were common in old work).


    That tape is no different than any other non-permanent tape - most reasonable people would agree, so I guess we agree that any non-permanent tape is ... well ... non-permanent ... being reasonable people and all.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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