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Thread: Checklist

  1. #1
    Sidney Holmes's Avatar
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    Post Checklist

    When doing an electrical inspection is a there system or checks list. Client at times only want a inspection just inly on electrical checks.

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    Default Re: Checklist

    If someone's only looking for an electrical inspection they'd be best served to just call an electrician.

    That being said, a HIs electrical inspection would generally consist of the service to the house, the panel(s) and the distribution throughout the house. And, more specifically, the visible/accessible portions thereof.

    Personally, if I fielded a call from a potential client looking for only an electrical inspection, I'd refer them to a contractor. It saves them the time/expense of having me come in and just give them the same advice after charging them.

    It would be kind of like you calling your general doctor and telling him that your elbow really hurt. He could charge you $100 to come to his office to have you tell him in person and then refer you to an elbow specialist. Or, he could just refer you without seeing you.


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    That call is a good example of why industry contacts are important. I would refer the call out to a known and used, licensed electrician. Depending on the deal you may or may not make some freight on it. Either way though you've established yourself with the client as a resource to call for X. This in turn keeps you in mind for future business.

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    Default Re: Checklist

    Both good pieces of advice!

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Coincidence! I was just signing on to ask the same question as the OP pretty much. Seeing as how there are quite specific requirements for wiring a house, I'm curious as to how some of the experienced guys here handle the electrical check, particularly if the main panel and any subs are not labelled. It would seem to me like a daunting job yet you don't want your client coming back to you with 'jesus man it seems like the wiring on this place is all wrong" type thing. Thanks for your input.


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    Here's is another twist to be considered:

    Suppose you do inspect "only the electrical system", however, being the educumated an' 'speareenced home inspector you are, can you really ignore the other things you see and not write them up?

    What if something happens and someone is injured as a result of it, then word gets out that 'well ... we had a home inspector inspect the electrical system, surely they saw blah-blah-blah too and yet they did not warn us ... ' - I am sure you can see where that is heading and that before too long receive a letter from an attorney inquiring as to why you did not perform your due diligence and warn your client of blah-blah-blah, which was obviously visible to you while inspecting blah-blah-blah part of the electrical system.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Thanks, Matt for that good advice on my queation. Just that as you know sometimes clients try and get the more for so little pay.


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    I would never tell a client to have an electrician inspect their electrical system unless it was just a newer house on a slab foundation.


    I have done too many re-inspections where they didn't even fix the whole list that was spoon fed to them in absolute detail.

    Electricians are geared towards troubleshooting particular complaints, installation or upgrades, they are not inspectors.

    There may be one out of a hundred that has the mindset and knowledge for inspections but willl they take the time? Will they crawl under the whole house looking for open boxes, improper splices? Can they spot a red wirenut sticking up above the attic insulation 40 feet from the scuttle hole? Do they know that double tap neutrals were wrong even before the NEC spoon fed the info into the 2002 version? Are they among the majority that think FPE stablok and zinsco are fine until they actually go bad? Do they know HVAC and how to determine if the branch circuit is correct for a heat pump airhandler with aux heating strips?


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    Those are all great points, Bruce. I often think of electricians as 'installers' - You're exactly right that many have no idea how to do an overall evaluation of an electrical system. They could put in a new one or replace a piece that you tell them to but they don't do what we do everyday.

    Unfortunately, sometimes we have to defer to an electrican to do a 'full system evaluation' or 'check all apsects of the system'. This is terminology that is suggested/requested/required by E/O companies in reaction to past lawsuits. So, we tell Mr. Soon to be homeowner that his electrical system is totally botched. We've all seen the place.... way too many problems to list individually. Do you really think the whole system gets evaluated and every problem repaired? Unlikely.... but at least we're not on the hook since we told them to have the entire thing looked at. For once I almost find myself heading down the road of thanking a lawyer.... yikes... that was a scary moment. Thankfully, it passed.

    Speaking of lawyers... it's worth noting that statistically speaking, a very small % of claims against HIs are the result of electrical problems. Of course, statisitics don't mean anything if you're the one it happens to but water, bugs and structural stuff is much more likley to get you. At least according to the last piechart I saw in an E/O carrier presentation.


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    Interesting responses that I usually don't think of too much anymore. I learned to categorize the contractors I know years ago. Some guys are good at service calls, others installs. Some work good in occupied homes, others are strictly NC type crews.
    Another reason to have multiple contacts. I know Sparky's that could do a system eval to a high standard. I also know Sparky's that I wouldn't even consider referring for such work because of the points mentioned. Even though they are good installers.
    Often times it is helpful to consider how the client / contractor personalities will mesh in order for the relationship to be non-volatile.
    Refer with caution and thought

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  11. #11
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    Yep

    With the really heavily screwed up and just plane bad electric systems I will go just so far before it is time to recommend a complete electric system evaluation by a licensed, competent electrician.

    Lets face it. We are not individually tracing every circuit. Following every ground to see if it makes any unexpected detours. Opening every receptacle or outlet box cover.

    Sometimes we see ground wires coming out of panels and never do see the other end because they may be connected and buried in a wall.

    Some homes are just way to involved for us to spend a day there to figure it all out. After all, as home inspectors we are just generalists.

    When it comes to the point of recommending repairs/further eval etc I will recommend the whole system or component be checked thoroughly by the appropriate tradesman. If you do not and something else is on its way out with deeper testing then they just may be asking you to pay for it. That is of course depending on the seriousness of the concerns.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    If someone's only looking for an electrical inspection they'd be best served to just call an electrician.

    That being said, a HIs electrical inspection would generally consist of the service to the house, the panel(s) and the distribution throughout the house. And, more specifically, the visible/accessible portions thereof.

    Personally, if I fielded a call from a potential client looking for only an electrical inspection, I'd refer them to a contractor. It saves them the time/expense of having me come in and just give them the same advice after charging them.

    It would be kind of like you calling your general doctor and telling him that your elbow really hurt. He could charge you $100 to come to his office to have you tell him in person and then refer you to an elbow specialist. Or, he could just refer you without seeing you.
    Why on earth wouldn't you refer them to a professional "Electrical Inspector"? The language of electrical inspection is entirely different than that of electrical installation and electrical contracting. The intricacies of electrical systems and methods inspections demand highly individualized training and attention. Refer them to a professional electrical inspector.



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    Fred,

    Excellent point.

    Except ... if someone only wants a "structural inspection" do we refer them to a licensed certified building inspector, or to a structural engineer?

    Not setting aside the point you were making (and a very good point at that) just pointing out the realities of applying that across the board.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Why on earth wouldn't you refer them to a professional "Electrical Inspector"? The language of electrical inspection is entirely different than that of electrical installation and electrical contracting. The intricacies of electrical systems and methods inspections demand highly individualized training and attention. Refer them to a professional electrical inspector.
    Well

    An electrical inspector denoptes one that is just going to inspect. We already did and found multiple concerns. It is now time for a competent elctrical contractor do do a little deeper eval (he would anyway before performing work) and price the repairs and then do the repairs (maybe)

    Now if they are just looking for an electrical inspection only then yes, a fully wigged out codem soutafried elctriclical inspectiator would be in order.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    Excellent point.

    Except ... if someone only wants a "structural inspection" do we refer them to a licensed certified building inspector, or to a structural engineer?

    Not setting aside the point you were making (and a very good point at that) just pointing out the realities of applying that across the board.
    A structural inspection, depending on the intensity, might be performed by a structural engineer or his/her designee, but I would think it rare to have this work performed by a certified building official.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Why on earth wouldn't you refer them to a professional "Electrical Inspector"? The language of electrical inspection is entirely different than that of electrical installation and electrical contracting. The intricacies of electrical systems and methods inspections demand highly individualized training and attention. Refer them to a professional electrical inspector.

    Aside from splitting hairs on terminology...... what does this even mean?????

    I'm a general HI.... a bunch of X system is messed up. Get an X contractor to look at the entire X system and repair as needed.

    Your client has the best info and you're out from under the problem. Please site some case law to back up your position that this is not sufficent or complete advice.


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Aside from splitting hairs on terminology...... what does this even mean?????

    I'm a general HI.... a bunch of X system is messed up. Get an X contractor to look at the entire X system and repair as needed.

    Your client has the best info and you're out from under the problem. Please site some case law to back up your position that this is not sufficent or complete advice.
    I was responding to your use of the term "electrical inspector". I didn't realize you meant a generalized inspection from an electrical tradesman. In my line of work we call that a "Tradesman's Survey of Existing Conditions". There's actually quite a difference in approach and final results, between the two types of surveys.

    As far as whether it is sufficient or complete advice, I agree that it's dependent on the amount and type of information sought. This type of inspection may be all that's desired.

    I'm trying to make the point that a bone-fide electrical inspection is best performed by a bona-fide electrical inspection professional, that's all.


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    Fred,

    I didn't say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    certified building official
    I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    licensed certified building inspector
    There is a BIG difference between a "building inspector" and a "building official".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Coincidence! I was just signing on to ask the same question as the OP pretty much. Seeing as how there are quite specific requirements for wiring a house, I'm curious as to how some of the experienced guys here handle the electrical check, particularly if the main panel and any subs are not labelled. It would seem to me like a daunting job yet you don't want your client coming back to you with 'jesus man it seems like the wiring on this place is all wrong" type thing. Thanks for your input.


    In Ontario one contacts the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) and schedules a permit search and inspection. We've covered this before. Breaking an ESC inspection/certification seal without a homeowner's permit or not having an electrical contractor's license is a violation 570/05 ECRA.

    Unlike the US, you have in Ontario, the ESC. I suggest you look into that if you're looking to represent prospective purchasers as an HPI in the future and the requirements regarding maintaining certifications and documentation of one's electrical system.

    Potential property purchasers as well as property owners in Ontario have a procedure including inspection and certification for low cost. It begins with a historical search at the ESA. Mobile homes and other occupancies have their own unique procedures. Mr. Robertson of course would know this, as well as the prohibitions of engaging in work, inspection, or entering a labeled panel, not being the owner or occupant of record and not holding the proper licensing or authority (electrical contractor, ESA inspector) to do so.

    The well-informed buyer would also be aware of the procedure, as should any homeowner.

    Realizing the minimal effort it would have required to determine what ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) is or find a direct site link let alone explore it to acquire more information, here's one to ESA's site on buying a home, general information (additional links can be easily located) which outlines the basic steps an informed purchaser should follow.

    The General Inspection referenced at the link below General (Electrical Safety Audit) Inspection done by the ESA, the property owner must arrange for it. A general inspection is a visual safety audit of the home’s electrical system, installations and equipment. This service provides assurance that the home's electrical system, which may have been altered over the years, meets the requirements of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. Any hazardous defects identified during this inspection must be corrected by the homeowner. The general inspection is provided for in
    Ontario Electrical Safety Code Rule 2-004. The ESA encourages the use of Licensed Electrical Contractors. All electrical work requires a Certificate of Inspection from the Electrical Safety Authority.

    LINK (ESA information including General Inspection informationfor potential purchasers), this is a clickable link to Buying/Selling a Home:

    CLICK HERE: Buying a Home


    (old link previously provided no longer worked two and a half years later, so updated with the updated links in Sept 2011 - Try the one above, if desired, also provided below is a link for the General Inspection application form, you may also hunt around for more information pertaining to potential purchase transactions):

    CLICK HERE: Electrical Safety Authority Inspection Application Forms

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-08-2011 at 10:00 PM. Reason: updated/corrected link 2-1/2 yrs later.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    I didn't say:


    I said:


    There is a BIG difference between a "building inspector" and a "building official".
    ?????


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    ?????

    Fred,

    You are not saying you don't know the difference between a building "inspector" and a building "official" are you?

    If not, I am sure you are not, then I don't know what you are saying with the above.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    You are not saying you don't know the difference between a building "inspector" and a building "official" are you?

    If not, I am sure you are not, then I don't know what you are saying with the above.
    Jerry, in New York State, it is against our constitution to usurp the powers of the State. Building Code laws and the standards that are referenced from them must be administered and enforced by the State Codes Division, or a County governmental municipal or a city, town or village government. Building inspectors are government officials. Private for-profit inspection agencies are permitted to conduct inspections and file their reports indicating compliance or noting violations through contractual arrangements provided for within our general municipal laws, but the actual enforcement is by an official. In this manner, our rights are not violated.
    So, in our home inspector rules, these type home inspectors (if you want to call them "building inspectors"), are not officials.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Building inspectors are government officials.
    Fred,

    All municipal, county and state inspectors are "government officials", however, that does not make a "building INSPECTOR" a "building OFFICIAL", I surely hope you are aware of that difference.

    The building DEPARTMENT is headed by the building OFFICIAL who subjugates his duties to his INSPECTORS, one of which is the electrical INSPECTOR, another of which is the building INSPECTOR, yet another of which is the plumbing INSPECTOR, all of whom are "government officials".

    This has all been long laid out in, for example in the IRC:
    SECTION R103
    DEPARTMENT OF BUILDING SAFETY
    R103.1 Creation of enforcement agency. The department of building safety is hereby created and the official in charge thereof shall be known as the building official.
    R103.2 Appointment. The building official shall be appointed by the chief appointing authority of the jurisdiction.
    R103.3 Deputies. In accordance with the prescribed procedures of this jurisdiction and with the concurrence of the appointing authority, the building official shall have the authority to appoint a deputy building official, the related technical officers, inspectors, plan examiners and other employees. Such employees shall have powers as delegated by the building official.

    SECTION R104
    DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE BUILDING OFFICIAL
    R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in conformance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    All municipal, county and state inspectors are "government officials", however, that does not make a "building INSPECTOR" a "building OFFICIAL", I surely hope you are aware of that difference.

    The building DEPARTMENT is headed by the building OFFICIAL who subjugates his duties to his INSPECTORS, one of which is the electrical INSPECTOR, another of which is the building INSPECTOR, yet another of which is the plumbing INSPECTOR, all of whom are "government officials".

    This has all been long laid out in, for example in the IRC:
    SECTION R103
    DEPARTMENT OF BUILDING SAFETY
    R103.1 Creation of enforcement agency. The department of building safety is hereby created and the official in charge thereof shall be known as the building official.
    R103.2 Appointment. The building official shall be appointed by the chief appointing authority of the jurisdiction.
    R103.3 Deputies. In accordance with the prescribed procedures of this jurisdiction and with the concurrence of the appointing authority, the building official shall have the authority to appoint a deputy building official, the related technical officers, inspectors, plan examiners and other employees. Such employees shall have powers as delegated by the building official.

    SECTION R104
    DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE BUILDING OFFICIAL
    R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in conformance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.
    Jerry, New York has adopted the Residential Code of New York State which combines language from the 2003 IRC and New York modifications (I've been and still continue to be a member of the task group charged with NY's enhancements). These modifications are developed by our State Fire Prevention and Building Code Council. In addition, Chapter 1 of our Administrative Modifications was developed by our Department of State's Administrative Task Group. I have been on these Task Groups and busied by serving for over ten years now.
    Our Section R105 covers Administration and Enforcement. But as I've stated above in my previous post, our building codes (this includes all of the family of international codes...all with NY State enhancements) are all enforced by Officials. Each building inspector receives his or her power and authority by being appointed by an elected official.
    Some cities and larger metropolitan areas have actual electrical inspectors that are government officials, but by and large (88&#37 of electrical inspections are conducted by third-party private inspection agency employees who file their reports to the building officials.

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 04-26-2009 at 04:42 AM. Reason: english language

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    Thank you kindly Mr. Watson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    But as I've stated above in my previous post, our building codes (this includes all of the family of international codes...all with NY State enhancements) are all enforced by Officials. Each building inspector receives his or her power and authority by being appointed by an elected official.
    Not unlike (while not exactly like) in Florida and probably most other states.

    In Florida the the Building Official is hired by the City Manager/City Council/City Commission/County Manager/County Commission, all of who are elected Officials. The Building Official then is responsible for the entire Building Department, which includes all inspectors as well as all permit clerks, plan reviewers, etc.

    Thus, all codes are also enforced by Officials, and each building inspector receives his or her power and authority by being duly authorized by the Building Official.

    Thus, while there is some similarities, there are also differences.

    In the areas which operate as I described above, the Building Official and the Building Inspector are two different people and have two distinctly different sets duties.

    Usually it is setup as: Building Official, then subordinate to the Building Official are all of the Chiefs - Chief Electrical Inspector, Chief Building Inspector, etc., and subordinate to them are the inspectors -such as the Chief Building Inspector may have one or more Building Inspectors under him/her, same with plumbing, etc.

    All to the end point and back to the previous posts a long time ago above - if one were to have the structure inspected, would you call a "building inspector" or a "structural engineer", all in response to your 'You would call an electrical inspector" and all is well and good except for, as I stated previously, trying to place that across the board to all disciplines is not all going to work out that way.

    And in that way, New York's setup may be enough different to warrant another choice, but the original question, as I recall, did not come from New York.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Mr. Watson, just going over your post again, so in Ontario this general inspection that is required is performed by an ESA certified contractor, which isn't hard to find, but is paid for by the homeowner. Are you requesting your clients, (I'm not sure, I'm assuming your an HI) have this inspection done before purchasing the home? I guess in general, I'm curious exactly what your protocol would be for the electrical part of your inspection, for a residence here in Ontario, if you wouldn't mind sharing it with me.


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    H.G. are you out there, I was curious about how you would conduct the electrical part of an home inspection in Ontario, if you don't mind. Thanks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    In Ontario one contacts the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) and schedules a permit search and inspection. We've covered this before. Breaking an ESC inspection/certification seal without a homeowner's permit or not having an electrical contractor's license is a violation 570/05 ECRA.

    Unlike the US, you have in Ontario, the ESC. I suggest you look into that if you're looking to represent prospective purchasers as an HPI in the future and the requirements regarding maintaining certifications and documentation of one's electrical system.

    Potential property purchasers as well as property owners in Ontario have a procedure including inspection and certification for low cost. It begins with a historical search at the ESA. Mobile homes and other occupancies have their own unique procedures. Mr. Robertson of course would know this, as well as the prohibitions of engaging in work, inspection, or entering a labeled panel, not being the owner or occupant of record and not holding the proper licensing or authority (electrical contractor, ESA inspector) to do so.

    The well-informed buyer would also be aware of the procedure, as should any homeowner.

    Realizing the minimal effort it would have required to determine what ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) is or find a direct site link let alone explore it to acquire more information, here's one to ESA's site on buying a home, general information (additional links can be easily located) which outlines the basic steps an informed purchaser should follow.

    The General Inspection referenced at the link below General (Electrical Safety Audit) Inspection done by the ESA, the property owner must arrange for it. A general inspection is a visual safety audit of the home’s electrical system, installations and equipment. This service provides assurance that the home's electrical system, which may have been altered over the years, meets the requirements of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. Any hazardous defects identified during this inspection must be corrected by the homeowner. The general inspection is provided for in
    Ontario Electrical Safety Code Rule 2-004. The ESA encourages the use of Licensed Electrical Contractors. All electrical work requires a Certificate of Inspection from the Electrical Safety Authority.

    LINK (ESA Inspection information for potential purchasers):
    Buying a Home
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Thank you kindly Mr. Watson
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Mr. Watson, just going over your post again, so in Ontario this general inspection that is required is performed by an ESA certified contractor, which isn't hard to find, but is paid for by the homeowner. Are you requesting your clients, (I'm not sure, I'm assuming your an HI) have this inspection done before purchasing the home? I guess in general, I'm curious exactly what your protocol would be for the electrical part of your inspection, for a residence here in Ontario, if you wouldn't mind sharing it with me.
    ESA performs a general inspection for a modest fee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    H.G. are you out there, I was curious about how you would conduct the electrical part of an home inspection in Ontario, if you don't mind. Thanks.
    The information provided to you on this and another string are self-explanitory. One can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. Have you visited the link provided on this string? resources referenced on this and the other string? Reviewed materials at esasafety?

    It would depend on 1) what the ESA report/inspection indicated; 2) observed conditions (for example 15 amp multiwire kitchen countertop or 20 amp); 3) condition and presence of certification seals; 4) status of insurance and ESA licensure of the "inspector". What I would do in a hypothetical situation without parameters regarding a residence in Ontario Canada is not germain to the original topic.

    You had previously responded on this string and at that point I no longer subscribed to it, if you had new questions you might have alerted me via private message, unlike some I do not frequent this forum daily, nor keep track of every discussion string, especially when they had previously appeared stale and completed.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-25-2009 at 10:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The information provided to you on this and another string are self-explanitory. One can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
    Watson,

    There you go again.

    You cannot simply answer a question, you first must degrade someone else, then you STILL do not answer the question.

    Have you visited the link provided on this string? resources referenced on this and the other string? Reviewed materials at esasafety?

    Watson,

    Do as the rest of us do, PROVIDE THE ANSWER, give the references, copy and paste them here, otherwise you are not answering anything, you are simply blabbering on and trying to sound important.

    Answer the question man.

    Quit thumping your chest and actually post something of substance.

    You can do it, you can do it, you can do it ... see, even have a cheering squad here cheering you on ... you can do it, you can do it ...


    Now just answer the question.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Checklist

    I have answered the question, on more than one occasion.

    It would depend on the resulting ESA history report and ESA general inspection report/certification status and the particular cirumstances/conditon of the property as to what should be recommended or done and by whom.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Checklist

    I will not plagerize nor violate reserved copyright.

    START HERE BY READING THIS (click on link to esainspection.net):
    Buying a Home

    Cannot help those who will not help themselves.

    Ontario Provincial Government organization and regulation is quite different than the United States/State Government.



  33. #33
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Yeah, what Jerry said. I am trying to help myself, that's why I'm here. So maybe your not an HI, I can't figure it out. Yes, I read the link but it has nothing to do with my question. My question was fairly specific and straightforward. Thanks anyhow


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I have answered the question, on more than one occasion.
    Watson,

    No, you have not yet answered his question, or any other question, for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I will not plagerize nor violate reserved copyright.
    What a basket case, refuses to answer questions and post relevant information, even when allowed by the Fair Use Doctrine, and then tries to hide his ineffectuality behind saying he is not allowed to post anything he did not write.

    Watson, you seem to be, at least pretend to be, a bright person, and you are always telling others to read things by giving them links, so ... here are some links for you:

    U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 1
    - ( U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 1 ) ( U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 1 )
    U.S. Copyright Office - Fair Use
    Fair Use of Copyrighted Materials
    Fair use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Stanford Copyright & Fair Use Center
    Fair Use in Copyright (BitLaw)
    How Much of Someone Else's Work May I Use Without Asking Permission?: The Fair Use Doctrine, Part I
    Fair Use Doctrine and Copyright Law

    When you are through reading those, think of what the purpose of this is: non-commercial, education, and research.

    Jeez, man, get a grip.

    Cannot help those who will not help themselves.
    No, be we keep trying to help you, as much as we regret it and should just let you lie, we keep trying to help you.

    Maybe we are secretly hoping that the wisdom of 'you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink' along with 'however, you might drown the horse' comes into play, maybe you will drown and not re-surface? One can only wish upon a star ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Jerry
    That was very informative, but what does it mean.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  36. #36
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    Inspection News is a commercial site. It is not a non-commercial site.

    Quoting US law is meaningless, Canadian Copyright is reserved on the ESA sites.

    International Treaties, Canadian Law, and International Law are what is at issue.

    If you can't read what I wrote in my posts, including that ESA performs the inspection not a contractor, for a modest fee, obviously reading two paragraphs on a link is beyond you.

    I wouldn't recommend a home purchase offer in Ontario withOUT a history report AND an ESA inspection BEFORE an Home Inspection and the offer contingent upon approval of same.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Inspection News is a commercial site. It is not a non-commercial site.
    While inspection news is a commercial site, THE USE OF the site is NON-COMMERCIAL and FOR EDUCATION, and FOR RESEARCH, EACH AND EVERY POST is NON-COMMERCIAL (is supposed to be, some people slip ads in but are not supposed to).

    Quoting US law is meaningless, Canadian Copyright is reserved on the ESA sites.

    International Treaties, Canadian Law, and International Law are what is at issue.
    No, what is at issue is your inability to post actually informative posts, with actual documentation, from creditable sources, instead of just posting endless dribble and chest pounding saying that Watson, and only Watson knows.

    If you can't read what I wrote in my posts, including that ESA performs the inspection not a contractor, for a modest fee, obviously reading two paragraphs on a link is beyond you.
    We can read your posts, however, they are meaningless, just so much dribble after dribble, with no meaningful content.

    I wouldn't recommend a home purchase offer in Ontario withOUT a history report AND an ESA inspection BEFORE an Home Inspection and the offer contingent upon approval of same.
    No problem, and I wouldn't recommend anyone pay any attention to your dribble posts full of nothing by Watson knows and only Watson knows, and if you don't believe Watson go read it a link ... a link which is meaningless.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-28-2009 at 06:07 PM. Reason: correcting an incorrect [quote]
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Just to clarify this before it gets asked: I used "dribble" intentionally instead of "drivel" to make sure the right meaningS of "drivel" would be applied - both meanings.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Yawn!


  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Yawn!
    Just another indication that you will never learn how to communicate effectively and properly on this board.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  41. #41
    Craig Ervin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidney Holmes View Post
    When doing an electrical inspection is a there system or checks list. Client at times only want a inspection just inly on electrical checks.
    Wow a lot said here thats for sure. I would explain that you are not an electrician and would be looking for items in the open and can't see what is covered up and how much you charge for this service. From there you could explain that an electrician would be needed to look deeper and or fix items noted. I would asks some probing questions on why just an electrical inspection as they might have a problem that requires an electrician to fix.

    My check list which is not worth a hill of beans.

    1) Open the main panel and see if the breakers are labeled.
    2) Using the top to bottom left to right approach. See how far you can push a breaker before it trips. If more then 1/2 way its bad. ( try a new one they go about 1/3 before tripping)
    3) How old is the house as note above, FPE and Zinco is just plain ugly, right up there with knob and tube.
    4)Take note if you have the old rat wire with no grounds
    5)Take picture of panel with cover removed, for posting here

    Discalamer: I'm am not a licensed inspector or unlicensed one.
    Just been around the block a few times.


  42. #42
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Ervin View Post
    Wow a lot said here thats for sure. I would explain that you are not an electrician and would be looking for items in the open and can't see what is covered up and how much you charge for this service. From there you could explain that an electrician would be needed to look deeper and or fix items noted. I would asks some probing questions on why just an electrical inspection as they might have a problem that requires an electrician to fix.

    My check list which is not worth a hill of beans.

    1) Open the main panel and see if the breakers are labeled.
    2) Using the top to bottom left to right approach. See how far you can push a breaker before it trips. If more then 1/2 way its bad. ( try a new one they go about 1/3 before tripping)
    3) How old is the house as note above, FPE and Zinco is just plain ugly, right up there with knob and tube.
    4)Take note if you have the old rat wire with no grounds
    5)Take picture of panel with cover removed, for posting here

    Discalamer: I'm am not a licensed inspector or unlicensed one.
    Just been around the block a few times.
    You've got to be kidding. Right?


  43. #43
    Craig Ervin's Avatar
    Craig Ervin Guest

    Default Re: Checklist

    Nope. You need to test breakers, as they don't last forever. The top to bottom left to right is just so you don't forget which one you did last

    A friend bought a house and I was helping him replace all the outlets (circa 1959) I found several breakers that were questionable and one you could push it all the way over and it would not trip. After slamming over a couple times I got it to trip.

    That house got a new panel and breakers

    Thinking back the inspection report was very well done. Best I have seen, but don't remember any mentioning of the breaker that would not trip. Of course that house had a ton of other things that keep the inspector busy writing.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Checklist

    "2) Using the top to bottom left to right approach. See how far you can push a breaker before it trips. If more then 1/2 way its bad. ( try a new one they go about 1/3 before tripping) "

    Other than your posting, is there any documentation of this testing procedure? I never heard of it.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Ervin View Post
    Nope. You need to test breakers, as they don't last forever.
    Like the others, I've never heard of that procedure, and, by the way, you are NOT "testing" how the breakers "trip", you are only "turning them off", which has nothing to do with "how they trip".

    I think your testing procedure is, at best, misguided ... I will leave that comment at that.

    In fact, you are not "testing" anything, you are simply turning breakers off and then back on. That IS NOT something I would recommend home inspectors do.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Checklist

    Uh, where is the part about taking the panel cover off and examining the wiring and installation?

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
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