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  1. #1
    Ed DeRousse's Avatar
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    Default Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    I called out the absence of a sub-panel in a detached shed today! I called it out because there is electrical in the shed, between 8-10 interior receptacles, with no panel in sight. I did this because I felt it would fall into the "in case of emergency" category. My question is, did I call it right? I appreciate your comments ahead of time.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Unless there is a submarine in that other building it does not need a sub-panel.

    However, it does require a disconnecting means in some enclosure, and that would be a panel, or even a "remote" "panel" to identify it as being "remote" from the main building's "panel".

    You said there were 8-10 receptacles, but how many circuits?

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining is mine)
    - 225.31 Disconnecting Means.
    - - Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.
    - 225.32 Location.
    - - The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.
    - - - (there are 4 exceptions, now of which would apply to your installation)

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  3. #3
    Steven Meyer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    I would say as long as it is "BREAKERED" at the main panel, it would be ok. I see no reaxon for a sub panel, at the shed.
    If that were a requirement, all detached garages would need a "sub panel".

    Any electricans out there???


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    codeman,
    250.32(A) exception?


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by brian schmitt View Post
    codeman,
    250.32(A) exception?

    Huh?

    250.32(A) is about grounding electrodes and not about location of overcurrent protection.

    The exception excepts out the grounding electrode under the conditions given.

    The grounding electrode system is not even in the question.

    Me thinks brian needs to read the code before responding as such.

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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Meyer View Post
    I would say as long as it is "BREAKERED" at the main panel, it would be ok. I see no reaxon for a sub panel, at the shed.
    If that were a requirement, all detached garages would need a "sub panel".

    Any electricans out there???
    The disconnect "shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served " ... "of the building served", that means "inside or outside" the shed "nearest the point of entrance" of the conductors into the shed.

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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    codeman,
    now read 225.36 exception! you just might learn something without me having to tutor you


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by brian schmitt View Post
    codeman,
    now read 225.36 exception! you just might learn something without me having to tutor you
    You really need to learn to read better, such as in my first post ... ... I covered that, yep. No go back and read what I posted, heck, I'll quote it here again.

    This is what YOU are referring to:
    - 225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
    - - The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.
    - - - Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential property, a snap switch or a set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches shall be permitted as the disconnecting means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    However, it does require a disconnecting means in some enclosure, and that would be a panel, or even a "remote" "panel" to identify it as being "remote" from the main building's "panel".

    You said there were 8-10 receptacles, but how many circuits?
    brian, did you read that last sentence? Do you understand it yet?

    Here is what Ed stated and what I am going on:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    I called it out because there is electrical in the shed, between 8-10 interior receptacles, with no panel in sight.
    Don't get it yet?

    Do you see where there would be a switch in there???

    Maybe for a light, provided a light is installed (I would presume so, given that there is electrical in there) and I would presume there is a switch FOR THE LIGHT ... BUT NOT FOR "THE ELECTRICAL" to that shed, i.e., I doubt there is a switch which turns on and off all electrical to that shed.

    That stated, or, in this case NOT STATED, then my original post stands.

    You really need to wake up, read the post, read the response, read the code, then re-read the post and the response, ... maybe ... maybe ... you will begin to "get it" ... nah, too much to ask from someone like you.


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    codeman,
    i'll try to make it simple for the kid who went to school in the special little yellow bus! i am typing really slow for you! a snap switch can control 8 to 10 receptacles. see also 225.38. we also allow the feed to begin at a gfi receptacle which serves as the disco and provides gfi protection to the rest of the outlets on the circuit. no grounding electrode system,no sub-panels,service or non -service panels required. this is quite common in anywhere other than jerry's world!


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    b-r-i-a-n,

    I w-i-l-l m-a-k-e i-t r-e-a-l s-i-m-p-l-e f-o-r y-o-u ...

    "can" does not mean "it is".

    Get a grip man and start learning, that includes reading, and understanding what you read, and then understanding that you do not know it all, and that just because something "can" be done does not mean "it is" done.

    Let Ed solve your puzzle for you which you cannot figure out ...

    Ed, was there a switch which shut the power all to all the receptacles?

    Yes and I will have to learn to read between the lines.

    No and brian will n-e-e-d t-o l-e-a-r-n t-o r-e-a-d and comprehend what he is reading.

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  11. #11
    Ed DeRousse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    I called out the absence of a sub-panel in a detached shed today! I called it out because there is electrical in the shed, between 8-10 interior receptacles, with no panel in sight. I did this because I felt it would fall into the "in case of emergency" category. My question is, did I call it right? I appreciate your comments ahead of time.
    There was no disconnecting means whatsoever in or outside of the Shed that was readily visible!


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    There was no disconnecting means whatsoever in or outside of the Shed that was readily visible!
    There needs to be a disconnecting means for those outlets.
    If it's only 1 circuit ,it can be a simple snap switch. 1 circuit would not require a subpanel.


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    There was no disconnecting means whatsoever in or outside of the Shed that was readily visible!
    Ed, maybe it was up in the attic.

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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    There needs to be a disconnecting means for those outlets.
    If it's only 1 circuit ,it can be a simple snap switch. 1 circuit would not require a subpanel.
    ken,
    well stated,short and simple without the drivel of cut and paste monotomy and an excess of verbage even a codeman should understand it!


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by brian schmitt View Post
    ken,
    well stated,short and simple without the drivel of cut and paste monotomy and an excess of verbage even a codeman should understand it!
    A codeman does, not sure a schmitt can though.

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  16. #16
    Ed DeRousse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    I called out the absence of a sub-panel in a detached shed today! I called it out because there is electrical in the shed, between 8-10 interior receptacles, with no panel in sight. I did this because I felt it would fall into the "in case of emergency" category. My question is, did I call it right? I appreciate your comments ahead of time.
    Thanks for all your help, Guy's! I found that the shed light and receptacles were all on one switch, and when the switch was turned off, everything electrical in the shed would also turn off! I appreciate everyone's input, it helped me out a lot!


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    ed,
    your welcome! thanks for providing a question for entertainment and education. i think it meets code but i,m just a schmitt so what do i know?


  18. #18
    Ed DeRousse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Probably a whole lot, Brian! Thanks again!


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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    [quote=Jerry Peck;84319]b-r-i-a-n,


    Get a grip man and start learning, that includes reading, and understanding what you read, and then understanding that you do not know it all, and that just because something "can" be done does not mean "it is" done.
    codeman,
    i am happy that you have admitted to yourself and everyone else that you are dealing with your "issues"


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed DeRousse View Post
    Thanks for all your help, Guy's! I found that the shed light and receptacles were all on one switch, and when the switch was turned off, everything electrical in the shed would also turn off! I appreciate everyone's input, it helped me out a lot!
    Ed,

    You are welcome.

    brian,

    I don't read into what is written, and when I do I state so, such as "I presume ... " and state what I am reading into it and presuming.

    Unlike you who always reads things into what it posted and not there, and, this one time, YOU GOT IT RIGHT!

    Way to go brian, you finally got one right!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Absence of Sub-Panel in Detached Shed

    thanks jerry.i think


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