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  1. #1
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    Default any code exemption for this...

    I would be very surprised if there is a code exemption for this but I will post this anyway.


    220 volt condensation sump pump hardwired into the 60 amp furnace disconnect box with its own 3 ft long 14 gauge cable (not inside a wall).

    The sump pump has an internal overload device of some sort as per the hvac guy.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    I would be very surprised if there is a code exemption for this but I will post this anyway.


    220 volt condensation sump pump hardwired into the 60 amp furnace disconnect box with its own 3 ft long 14 gauge cable (not inside a wall).

    The sump pump has an internal overload device of some sort as per the hvac guy.

    Bruce,

    Without seeing the installation instructions, I suspect it came with a cord and plug and is listed and labeled for cord and plug installation.

    I think I only found 3-4 which were actually plugged into a receptacle which had been installed for their use, the rest (hundreds of them) all had the cord and plug with the plug cut off, then permanently wired in to the AHU as you describe.

    Cutting the plug off the cord and plug set now made its installation "not in accordance with its listing and labeling" which is an NEC code violation of 110.3(B) Listing and Labeling.

    Do you have a make or model number?

    Was the cable a flexible cord or NM cable?

    Most are like this: Hartell > Products > Condensate Pumps > KT-15 Pump

    Added with edit: The specifications show two plug types: the 5-15P plug is 120 volts, the 6-15P is 240 volts. That means it has to be ordered with the proper motor and cord and plug set.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-27-2009 at 05:54 PM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Not NM, typical round black cable.

    I didn't get any numbers off it, only checked the voltage.


    The builder says he talked to the hvac guy and found out that they have installed very many like this. HVAC guy claimed that the instructions showed it wired this way.

    I agree, any cord like that would have a plug on it for a typical 15 or 20 amp receptacle.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Not NM, typical round black cable.

    Most likely cord and plug with the plug cut off. Not good.

    he builder says he talked to the hvac guy and found out that they have installed very many like this.
    Do not doubt that at all. I think most HVAC installer think they can do what they want with whatever they want - Code? What is "code"?

    HVAC guy claimed that the instructions showed it wired this way.
    That I doubt, and the answer is "show me the installation instructions where it says that".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    They will be fixing it no doubt, this buyer is on top of things.

    Easy fix to, the panel is on the same wall, opposite side.


    If I get a chance, I'll find the manual on that.

    I have a bath fan with two large heat lamps that require a max 15amp breaker when you would think a 20 amp would be typical.

    I wonder if these pumps have a low max breaker like that.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Easy fix to, the panel is on the same wall, opposite side.
    The fix is not attaching a plug to that cord, but in replacing that cord and plug with the cut off plug with a new cord and plug set.

    I wonder if these pumps have a low max breaker like that.
    The installation instructions ( http://www.hartell.com/Files/Hartell.../KT15-KL20.pdf ) for that one I linked to states:
    - (underlining and bold are mine)
    - - The pump is supplied with a grounding type plug. To reduce the risk of electrical shock be certain that it is connected to a properly grounded, grounding receptacle.
    - (the warranty says)
    - - This guarantee does not apply if the product has been misapplied or mechanically damaged, HARTELL assumes no liability for resultant damages of any kind arising out of the use of its products. (I.e., the plug cut off unless replaced with like kind cord and plug.)
    - - LINE VOLTAGE. Connect power cord to the proper voltage as indicated on the motor nameplate. Connect only to a source of constant power, not an intermittent source such as a fan or limit control circuit.
    - (does not state, on either the first link or the installation instructions link, what maximum overcurrent protection, however, because of the plug configuration style of the plug the maximum would be 15 amps - for either the 5-15P or the 6-15P cord and plug set)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck;86331- (does not state, on either the first link or the installation instructions link, what maximum overcurrent protection, however, because of the plug configuration style of the plug the [U
    maximum would be 15 amps[/U] - for either the 5-15P or the 6-15P cord and plug set)
    Could you please state why the circuit could be no larger than 15 amps based on the plug size?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Could you please state why the circuit could be no larger than 15 amps based on the plug size?
    Jim,

    Sure, I could, but you think you are the smart one, so go back and read the posts above and figure it yourself.

    Then I can show you where you are incorrect when you come up with the wrong answer.

    See, instead of offering advice and help, you are always looking to bust someone, so, guess what, if you want to know, figure it out, and then we will do what you like to do - we will bust you.

    Gawd I loved doing that. But then Jim deserves nothing better.

    Added with edit: Jim, see, I know Ken is knowledgeable, and Ken helps out and provides answers here. I can tell that Tim is also knowledgeable, and Tim helps out and provides answers here too. But you, Jim, you just try to make life hard for others, and in doing so you show your ignorance of the codes, as you have done so often. Hate to bust your butt in public like this, but it is a fact based on your previous posts.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-27-2009 at 09:51 PM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    I don't think I have ever seen a 220v condensation pump. I see plenty of the 120v ones in homes.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - (does not state, on either the first link or the installation instructions link, what maximum overcurrent protection, however, because of the plug configuration style of the plug the maximum would be 15 amps - for either the 5-15P or the 6-15P cord and plug set)
    I was just wondering how you came up with this. Are you saying that anything with a 15 amp plug configuration needs to be used on a 15 amp maximum circuit?

    I asked a serious question. I had read nothing in the posts that would lead me to your answer and wanted to know how your derived your answer. Why did you resort to childish behavior?


  11. #11
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I asked a serious question.

    Why did you resort to childish behavior?
    You have no serious questions and sometimes the only way to communicate with children is to stoop down and talk to you ... er ... them in the language they use.

    I will take your questions serious after I see serious participation on your part.

    Out of the 162 posts you have made one could probably count your useful, helpful, and serious posts on both hands, maybe even one hand.
    - Jim Port
    - Member
    - Join Date: Aug 2008
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    - Posts: 162

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-28-2009 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Added last part about how few serious and helpful posts Jim has posted
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    I would be very surprised if there is a code exemption for this but I will post this anyway.


    220 volt condensation sump pump hardwired into the 60 amp furnace disconnect box with its own 3 ft long 14 gauge cable (not inside a wall).

    The sump pump has an internal overload device of some sort as per the hvac guy.

    The 14 gauge cable Ampacity would be 15 amps. The assumption is that this is the correct conductor that was provided with the pump by the manufacturer and not a scrap from the toolbox.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    These pumps use very little current, the cord has a factory strain relief in the side of the housing too, pretty easy to tell if these have been tampered with.

    I going back to the same neighborhood monday to do another new house, can't wait to see what it has.

    I'll get the make and model number this time.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    I did the other house today, it did not use a condensate pump.

    Also did a reinspect on the other one, the builder said the hvac guy could not come up with the instructions he was talking about.

    They removed the 220 pump and installed a 120 one with a regular wall receptacle on a new circuit.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: any code exemption for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    I did the other house today, it did not use a condensate pump.

    Also did a reinspect on the other one, the builder said the hvac guy could not come up with the instructions he was talking about.

    They removed the 220 pump and installed a 120 one with a regular wall receptacle on a new circuit.

    Bruce,

    Isn't it amazing what asking for the installation instructions can do?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  16. #16
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    Cool Re: any code exemption for this...

    June 6, 2009

    Just a note, I want to share with everyone.

    I once visit a house, built on hill, what I say was the HVAC guy drill
    thru the basement/cellar cement** floor, and ran a hose into it.
    No condensate pump used here.


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