Thread: Receptacles over electrical baseboard heaters

I inspected a home today with electrical baseboard heaters, unusual in this area. The owner said that the house had just been rewired to bring all electrical components up to code.

In the dining room there were two receptacles about three feet above the heater. I don't recall an exception for height of receptacles over such heaters, only the prohibition. Can't find an exception in the code but maybe I am missing one.

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There was a thread on this subject some time ago. Look it up, it might help.

Bob,

I don't have a Building Code.

but

The Installation Instructions would work for me.
.
* item 2 in Warning Section
.

From the 2008 NEC. Note that only the FPN (Fine Print Note, which are unenforceable 'comments') addresses your question, and Billy's answer.

(bold is mine)
- 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
- - This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
- - - (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
- - - (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
- - - (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
- - - (4) Located more than 1.7 m (5½ ft) above the floor
- - Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped with factory-installed receptacle outlets or outlets provided as a separate assembly by the manufacturer shall be permitted as the required outlet or outlets for the wall space utilized by such permanently installed heaters. Such receptacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
- - - FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.

Keep in mind that if your going to fall back on the" included instructions", they must be the instructions for that make and model of heater. You can't just pull some instructions off the shelf or internet and apply them to every heater.
Without the listing/ instructions for the exact make and model heater you can't state "as per the listing/ instructions" as you have no idea what the listing / instructions actually state.

In my OPINION it is never a good idea to have receptacles above electric baseboard heaters.
Then again In my opinion it is never a good idea to have electric baseboard heaters

Originally Posted by ken horak

Keep in mind that if your going to fall back on the" included instructions", they must be the instructions for that make and model of heater.

.
*if it's not Installed Per The Manufacture it's Not Up to Code ( no need to Fall Back.)
.
Of course You are correct on Manufactures Installation Instructions for the Installed Appliance.

However some Applications will have some basic Universal practices that all Manufactures include.
* if you have Baseboard Installation Instructions that allow receptacles over the installation Please Post.

.

Manufacturer's instructions are great if they are available.

I have yet to inspect a house, new or old, that has the instructions for the electric baseboard heaters available soI can review them during the inspection. In the absence of such information, I will continue to list the installation as deficient.

Originally Posted by Bob Hunt

Manufacturer's instructions are great if they are available.

I have yet to inspect a house, new or old, that has the instructions for the electric baseboard heaters available soI can review them during the inspection. In the absence of such information, I will continue to list the installation as deficient.

.
Correctly So.
.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
* if you have Baseboard Installation Instructions that allow receptacles over the installation Please Post.
.

Look at the instructions you posted.

# 2 - says not to install under electrical convenience outlets.

Ok , lets say you have a single 240 volt outlet under the window for a window air conditioner. That is NOT a convenience outlet. The instructions do not state not to install under ANY electrical outlet, just convenience outlets
Yes it's a bad idea ,but by the instructions and the code it is compliant.
And YES I have seen many window air conditioners stay in year round and remained plugged in

Originally Posted by Bob Hunt

In the absence of such information, I will continue to list the installation as deficient.

The way I address that is by stating something to the effect of:

Typically, manufacturer's installation instructions do not allow blah-blah-blah. If someone says otherwise, have them produce the manufacturer's installation instructions which do allow for blah-blah-blah and provide those instructions to the client and this inspector.

That covers you both ways.

The reason for adding "and provide those instructions to the client and this inspector" is to prevent them from "saying" it is allowed without actually documentation proof that it is allowed - show it to me, let me read it, I will show you where you are reading it incorrectly (if it is even in there at all).

Billy -You asked:
http://www.indeeco.com/images/ComIndBH.pdf

No mention of placement under receptacles. Just to install to local and national codes.
We already know that it is not a code issue (unless someone can find it in the building code)

Originally Posted by ken horak

You asked:
http://www.indeeco.com/images/ComIndBH.pdf

A one pager?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

A one pager?

Yep- short and to the point.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Billy -You asked:
http://www.indeeco.com/images/ComIndBH.pdf

No mention of placement under receptacles. Just to install to local and national codes.
We already know that it is not a code issue (unless someone can find it in the building code)

.
Ken,

I'm Missing the Allowed Part.
*you got the see Optional for Details.
.

The options are the relays or thermostats

Originally Posted by ken horak

The options are the relays or thermostats

.
Say's You.
.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Keep in mind that if your going to fall back on the" included instructions", they must be the instructions for that make and model of heater. You can't just pull some instructions off the shelf or internet and apply them to every heater.
Without the listing/ instructions for the exact make and model heater you can't state "as per the listing/ instructions" as you have no idea what the listing / instructions actually state.

In my OPINION it is never a good idea to have receptacles above electric baseboard heaters.
Then again In my opinion it is never a good idea to have electric baseboard heaters

Then I guess all those homes with receptacles on the same wall should have the receptacles removed and have no receptacles for anything to plu into.

Electric baseboard with a receptacle above it (not right on top of it) has no concerns what so ever. If the baseboard heaters were going to get that darn hot to affect a receptacles then they would not be allowed in homes at all.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Electric baseboard with a receptacle above it (not right on top of it) has no concerns what so ever. If the baseboard heaters were going to get that darn hot to affect a receptacles then they would not be allowed in homes at all.

Ummmm ... Ted, are your forgetting that it is INTENDED to plug CORDS into those receptacle outlets ... you know ... PLASTIC cords which melt and burn?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ummmm ... Ted, are your forgetting that it is INTENDED to plug CORDS into those receptacle outlets ... you know ... PLASTIC cords which melt and burn?

Yeah if you take the cord and angle it to fit into the vent of the baseboard electric heater and stuff it inside. I lived in the north east. Many jobs I did had electric baseboard heat installed (not sure why anyone would do that) I was questioned about outlets over the baseboard and would show them temps of the heat directly at the vent of the of the unit. Maybe age a cord quicker hanging somewhere near it but not hot enough to do damage. It would more than likely be much worse draping a cord next to the old iron monsters (radiators as they called them) everyone use to have in there homes and some still do. I lived in a home where the gas forced hot air unit malfunctioned (to young to remember why) it just kept getting hotter and hotter until it ignited the wood arounf the supply vents in the floor. So I guess to have floor supply vents wth gas heat should not be allowed or have electric cords anywhere near them because of the possibility of a supply vent getting to hot.

Ahhhh, I don't see the problem. UNLESS a particular manufacturer says no, do not have electric receptacles directly above this unit. Then that is a different story as the unit is likely to get to hot and have an affect on the receptacle. Then I would suggest getting a unit from another manufacturer because the one they are about to put in will someday burn their home down from getting to hot.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
Say's You.
.

No says the directions.
It even shows the Optional thermostat in the drawings!

The paperwork clearly states to install to national codes, which do not prohibit outlets above the heater.

You asked me to show you a baseboard heaters instructions that allow outlets above them. I Did.
The instructions say to install to local or national code.
Match- Point- Set

I'm not saying that I would mount outlets above the heater,but rather that it can be allowed. I showed you 2 ways in my posts

Originally Posted by ken horak

No says the directions.
It even shows the Optional thermostat in the drawings!

The paperwork clearly states to install to national codes, which do not prohibit outlets above the heater.

You asked me to show you a baseboard heaters instructions that allow outlets above them. I Did.
The instructions say to install to local or national code.
Match- Point- Set

I'm not saying that I would mount outlets above the heater,but rather that it can be allowed. I showed you 2 ways in my posts

.
Ken,
* Mr. USA ( I'm Bad and Nation Wide )

Unless The Manufacture Specifically Allows then It's Not Allowed.

King Me !
.
.
Unless The Manufacture Specifically Allowed+

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
Ken,
* Mr. USA ( I'm Bad and Nation Wide )

Unless The Manufacture Specifically Allows then It's Not Allowed.

King Me !
.
.
Unless The Manufacture Specifically Allowed+

NO SIR - INCORRECT
Unless they disallow them they are permitted!! Other wise they would not write the part about not installing under receptacles.
If it was the way you propose they would need to list EVERYTHING - type of wall, wood,concrete,sheetrock,plaster,adobe and so forth. This is why they list WHATS NOT ALLOWED.
So sir step aside while I climb up in the throne and have that crown placed upon MY head
Admit it - You asked for something and I responded to that request. We may not like it, but there it is

[quote=ken horak;89191]NO SIR - INCORRECT
Unless they disallow them they are permitted!! Other wise they would not write the part about not installing under receptacles.
If it was the way you propose they would need to list EVERYTHING - type of wall, wood,concrete,sheetrock,plaster,adobe and so forth. This is why they list WHATS NOT ALLOWED.
So sir step aside while I climb up in the throne and have that crown placed upon MYhead
Admit it - You asked for something and I responded to that request. We may not like it, but there it is[/quote]
.
Nope & Nope !
*

......
Electrical wiring, residential - Google Books

Happened to run into this today.

Bill-
That means nothing - thats just one of many "how to" type of publications.
That is not code, not a jurisdiction adopted installation manual

Face it you wanted me to provide a instruction sheet that does not state do heater under receptacles - I DID

John - most electric baseboard heaters have / had those labels.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Bill-
That means nothing - thats just one of many "how to" type of publications.
That is not code, not a jurisdiction adopted installation manual

Face it you wanted me to provide a instruction sheet that does not state do heater under receptacles - I DID

John - most electric baseboard heaters have / had those labels.

.
Ken,

Where is your References to Your (so called ) Position.

A One Page Quick Start Guide with I don't need No See Details( because I'm telling You what it Says.)

You haven't Proven Anything (but you can not accept You are Wrong. )

Show us something Besides Your Backside.

Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed. However after viewing the web site I did notice that all the baseboard heaters are marketed for commercial or industrial use, even the wiring diagram had 208/240/and 277 volts.

Ken, I don't that this document is irrefutable proof that any residential baseboard heater manufacturer will allow installation under an outlet.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed. However after viewing the web site I did notice that all the baseboard heaters are marketed for commercial or industrial use, even the wiring diagram had 208/240/and 277 volts.

Ken, I don't that this document is irrefutable proof that any residential baseboard heater manufacturer will allow installation under an outlet.

.
They are Designed for Installation Under Large Windows.
.

DON'T YELL AT ME!! Especially when someone ELSE did your homework !
Well done Rick
I knew they were commercial rated when I saw the reference to EMT and BX. I then went to the website prior to posting the instructions.
BUT .......

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
*if it's not Installed Per The Manufacture it's Not Up to Code ( no need to Fall Back.)
.
Of course You are correct on Manufactures Installation Instructions for the Installed Appliance.

However some Applications will have some basic Universal practices that all Manufactures include.
* if you have Baseboard Installation Instructions that allow receptacles over the installation Please Post.

.

I was only providing what you asked for!
look at your quote above - I see no where that you set the boundaries at a residential baseboard heater.

GOTCHA BUD !

By the way you can get commercial baseboard heaters that look exactly like residential heaters and are 120 volt. The instructions DO NOT state not to install in a dwelling.
This being said you can install them in a dwelling and it does not say do not install under receptacles.

Ken
All of us (myself in particular), learn more from this forum by the questions asked and answered by other members.

If you had stated;
I have found a manufacturer that does not prohibit installation under an outlet, and even though this manufacturer markets them as commercial/industrial the manufacturer also does not prohibit residential installation.

Your point would have still been made.
However, for you to give reference to information that you know is questionable or withhold information that is relevant to the conversation, is a deliberate attempt to be misleading, some call it deceitful.

If everyone would be more interested in sharing knowledge, instead of winning the debate, then the people that need to ask questions will be more willing to ask more questions. Everyone will benefit.

It's also amazing how many professionals will over look the obvious.
I have yet to see any response to the fact that I did prove there can be a receptacle over the heater, even following the installation guides posted. Yet an entire list of ramblings with out doing a lick of investigative work(research) . By the way it took me 2 minutes to find that installation sheet and to research the website. (I know everyone has access to Google,that's what I used)

I do agree that we learn from others and some times it should be straight forward as a comment like you stated. I'm I would have gotten no better a response had I chosen to go that way. I would have heard all about it being commercial and not residential.

I chose to go the "learn from experience" route instead. Just as much can be learned from this approach. Some would say that this approach will result in you remembering it better.

Was I deceitful ? NO well ... possibly misleading.
Remember I did prove the point in my 2nd post, to which NO ONE would acknowledge.
I was challenged to provide a baseboard heater that did not mention placement under receptacles- which I did.

I was never rude. I admitted many times that I felt it was not a good idea.
I just answered the questions/posts presented

Rick,If I offended you - that was not the intention.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.

* if you have Baseboard Installation Instructions that allow receptacles over the installation Please Post.

.

Originally Posted by ken horak

I was challenged to provide a baseboard heater that did not mention placement under receptacles- which I did.
.

.
So You took a Commercial Industrial Appliance Designed to be Installed Below Large Windows and Stretched that into it's Allowed for Residential Application Under a Receptacle.
* talk about not doing your Home Work.
* Some of us Work on Saturday Ken ( I tried to answer You Puff Pigeon Posts as Time Allowed.)

stretched - Nope-
Does not stipulate Do Not Install In Dwellings. Therefore it's allowed in a dwelling.
Besides where did you stipulate it had to be a residential heater??

What defines a large window ?
My neighbors have 4' picture windows. Thats a large window in my book.

You still have not acknowledged that I proved my point in my 2nd post.

Have to work on Saturday? Sorry for your luck .

"I have yet to see any response to the fact that I did prove there can be a receptacle over the heater"

Does this count?
"Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed. "

"I chose to go the "learn from experience" route instead. Just as much can be learned from this approach. Some would say that this approach will result in you remembering it better."
Thats your opinion.
I believe that accurate and reliable information (testimony) is the foundation of trust, and knowledge is accepted from those we trust.


"I was never rude."
No, you were not rude.



"Was I deceitful ? NO well ... possibly misleading"
Ken, I was being polite, misleading and deceit are one and the same.

de⋅ceit⋅ful
–adjective
1.given to deceiving: A deceitful person cannot keep friends for long.
2.intended to deceive; misleading; fraudulent: a deceitful action.


"Rick,If I offended you - that was not the intention."
You've done nothing to offend me.

"I have yet to see any response to the fact that I did prove there can be a receptacle over the heater"

Does this count?
"Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed. "

NO - it does not count-


# 2 - says not to install under electrical convenience outlets.

Ok , lets say you have a single 240 volt outlet under the window for a window air conditioner. That is NOT a convenience outlet. The instructions do not state not to install under ANY electrical outlet, just convenience outlets
Yes it's a bad idea ,but by the instructions and the code it is compliant.
And YES I have seen many window air conditioners stay in year round and remained plugged in

The above is my 2nd post - like I said point proven
without deceit

I was not deceitful - Some just assumed , or chose to think inside the box and read with blinders on

Enough said - conversation over thank you and Good Day

Originally Posted by Bob Hunt

I
.
I inspected a home today with electrical baseboard heaters, .

As this was the Topic of this Thread.( Home )

Originally Posted by ken horak

]stretched - Nope-

.
If You Insist " Untruthful."

Does not stipulate Do Not Install In Dwellings. Therefore it's allowed in a dwelling.
Besides where did you stipulate it had to be a residential heater??
What defines a large window.
My neighbors have a 4' picture windows. That's a large window in my book.

Ken,

You seem to have a Reading Disorder ( being Polite ).

I did not stipulate Country of Installation such as ( Bangladesh ) my apologies to any of our Members that may be working under different International Authorities.

If you can not Keep up with the Topic maybe you can get someone to assist you.

Look forward to Your DIY Book so you may provide us with all the Chapters on How Ken is Correct.
.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed.

Originally Posted by ken horak

I have yet to see any response to the fact that I did prove there can be a receptacle over the heater, even following the installation guides posted.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Does this count?
"Ken did indeed show a manufactures document that does not say it's not allowed. "

NO - it does not count-

Ken,

I've been staying in the stands watching this one, occasionally picking up a dropped ball and tossing it back in, but your post above shows that you ARE NOT looking for someone to say that Ken is right (heck, someone already did that and you stated it does not count), no, you are looking for ...


... well, I am not sure what you are looking for - some kind of vindication yet not willing to accept someone saying you were correct, so I don't know what kind of vindication you are looking for.

I suspect it may just be that you are now in "argument mode" and NOTHING will be acceptable while you are in "argument mode".

When you are no longer in "argument mode", look back at the posts above and you will see that some did indeed state precisely what you said you wanted someone to state. Then you stated it did not count. Huh???

Until then, keep arguing and keep making yourself look foolish.

As much as we might want it to, the NEC does not prohibit receptacles over baseboard heaters.

Now, it just happens that UL does evaluate heaters for temperaturees, and parts that may get over certain temperatures are required to be guarded. It's possible that the code panel is relying upon this to protect cords.

Or, perhaps, they (again) managed to say exactly the opposite of what they meant.

Good design and code compliance are two different things.

This exhibits an issue that has long bothered me in this business..... particularly when trying to play building codes versus manufacturer's specifications. Many parts of the building code state that the manufacturer's specifications must be followed while every product manual printed in the last 40+ years says (usually in bold) that all local building codes must be followed.

It's just a grand case of passing the buck back and forth. I've argued this one with several AHJs on various things. They just want to fall back on the manufacturer's specs without really applying the intent of the code.

I suppose like everything we just have the attorneys to thank but it seems like nobody will ever step up and take responsibility or be a final authority on anything.

I'm curious as to others' take on this....

According to listing instructions, permeanent electric baseboard heatrs are not permitted to be located beneath wall receptacles. Where the recep-
tacle is a part of the hearter, cords of appliances or lamps are less apt to be exposed to the heating elements, such as falling into convetor slots.

I general tell the customer that the electrician should removed receptacle above electric baseboard heat, and blank off the outlet.

Many electrical baseboard heaters are of the low-density type and are de-
signed to be longer than 12 Ft. To mee the spacing requirements for re-
ceptacles, it is neccessary that the required receptacle be located as a part of the heater unit.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

This exhibits an issue that has long bothered me in this business..... particularly when trying to play building codes versus manufacturer's specifications. Many parts of the building code state that the manufacturer's specifications must be followed while every product manual printed in the last 40+ years says (usually in bold) that all local building codes must be followed.

It's just a grand case of passing the buck back and forth. I've argued this one with several AHJs on various things. They just want to fall back on the manufacturer's specs without really applying the intent of the code.

They likely ARE applying the intent of the code.

The code says blah, blah, blah, ...

The manufacturer's installation instructions say blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, ...

You have to do what the code says (blah, blah, blah) AND what the manufacturer says (yada, yada, yada).

The MOST RESTRICTIVE applies.

The code ALLOWS certain things done certain ways and REQUIRES certain other things done certain other ways.

If you can install to the manufacturer's installation instructions and meet the code, all is fine. If you cannot meet the code when installed as the manufacturer says, then you ALSO need to install to meet the code.

USUALLY the manufacturer's installation instructions are more restrictive than the code, so installing to the installation instructions USUALLY meets the code ... but *if not* ... then you *also* have to meet the code. Thus the manufacturer's installation instructions says to install it this way AND to meet the local code - i.e., if the local code is more restrictive and does not create an installation which is not in accordance with the listing and labeling and installation instructions, then BOTH are applicable, however, if the local code creates an installation not in accordance with the listing, labeling and installation instructions, then that is a *code violation*.

I tried saying the same thing several ways to help make it easier to understand - did I accomplish that?

Originally Posted by Bob Hunt

I inspected a home today with electrical baseboard heaters, unusual in this area. The owner said that the house had just been rewired to bring all electrical components up to code.

In the dining room there were two receptacles about three feet above the heater. I don't recall an exception for height of receptacles over such heaters, only the prohibition. Can't find an exception in the code but maybe I am missing one

Assumed we are discussing "mounted" (attached) heater/s, and further assuming they are "hard wired".

The code requires installation to be not in conflict or not contrary to its listing. Quoting from the UL White Book for KLDR (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by UL

Electrical cords, drapes, and other furnishings should be kept away from baseboard heaters. To reduce the likelihood of cords contacting the heater, the heater should not be located beneath electrical receptacles. Receptacle accessories for use with individual manufacturers' baseboard heaters are covered under Baseboard Heater Accessories

Note there is no identifer or qualifer for "convenience" receptacles, or limiting the prohibition to 120vac receptacles.

UL 1042. The
scope for UL 1042 can be reviewed here: Scope for UL 1042

The category is KLDR. You can review in the UL White Book. The most recent editions are available for download (free) on the internet.
A direct link to Guide Info for KLDR is here:
KLDR.GuideInfo - Baseboard Heaters

Don't be disarmed by the use of the words "should not". Recommendations and the use of should in listings and manufacturer's instructions are NOT elective nor voluntary.

Regarding commercial or industrial in residential on this subject KLDR:

Originally Posted by UL KLDR Guide Info

Heaters, other than those marked to indicate that they are not for residential use, have been investigated to determine that the accessible surface temperatures are low enough to reduce the likelihood of burns from accidental contact.

Short answer: no exception unless otherwise listed as having one, or having been specifically investigated to allow, e.g. Field Investigation. If integrated and listed as a part of the heater unit or system - is how one complies with the code requirements for having receptacles every 6', etc.


Despite assertions to the contrary, assertions that the prohibition applies only to certain receptacles, etc. there is no exception in the listing category. The listing category is specific.

Unless the listing and instructions specific to the mfg, make, model, ALLOW for A/ANY receptacle to be placed in the vicinity, of the electric baseboard heater, it may not be.

There is no need for the instructions, or the code, to "allow" anything; absent a specific rule against, it's allowed.

Such is the case here. While I don't like receptacles over baseboard heaters, and I think the code panel is under the impression that they somehow banned such placement, I cannot find that prohibition in the code. Therefore. receptacles over heaters must be allowed.

This may be a case of us letting our imaginations run away. After all, there are other standards that limit outside temperatures of heaters to 'it won't burn you' temperatures, and thus won't harm cables. Parts that get hot have to be guarded. True, such guards are based on finger size, not cable size, so with some effort you can force a wire in .... but with effort you can also steal the gold from Ft. Knox.

Dare I say it, but the effect of 'designing to code' is often to guarantee that receptacles are in poor places - behind furniture, above heaters - all as the result of strictly following the '12 ft. rule.' Heaven forbid someone vary, and add an extra receptacle with better spacing!

Which, of course, brings us back to those heaters. They're also often blocked by, covered by, or pressed against by furniture. Heating design almost demands that both furniture and the heaters be placed against the same part of the wall. Yet, I see no fires as a result. Maybe our concerns are exaggerated.

John Stienk, I personal don't know, but do like the way you think.

Originally Posted by John Steinke

.

Such is the case here.

While I don't like receptacles over baseboard heaters, and I think the code panel is under the impression that they somehow banned such placement,

I cannot find that prohibition in the code. Therefore. receptacles over heaters must be allowed.


.

.
John,

If it is not installed per the manufactures installation instructions ( it's not installed to Code.)

Other than a Commercial Baseboard Heater Designed for Installation under Large Windows ( I haven't seen any receptacles installed onto a large commercial window,but I'm willing to look.)

Please Post a Baseboard Heater Manufacturer that Allows Installation under a Receptacle.
.
.

Well, Jerry, that's a lot like trying to prove a negative - it can't be done.

We have no cause to assume that the instructions say anything. Therefore, we go back to the principle: Unless forbidden, we must assume it's allowed.

If you are going to assert that the instructions are not being followed, it is incumbent upon you to produce the instructions that support your opinion.

As I said ... I may not like it, but until the code panel says different, we have to assume there is some reason that they do not plainly state 'don't place receptacles over heaters.'

John S. I am not sure that have a firm position on this issue.

Are saying, yea go ahead place outlets such as duplex recetpacle above
baseboard electric heaters. It not a NEC code volation.

I am not sure which one of you will win this one, but here my opinion.

An outlet such as duplex receptacle above a electric heater doesn't look
bad to me, personal.

But now plug in a table lamp, with it lamp cord drap over a 250 watt per
for section of electric baseboard heat. Not what going to happen to this
cord? It going to dry up and crack, and soon the insulation may fall off.

So I vote no. NO! NO! duplex receptacle above electric heat baseboard
units for this reason along.

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

I generally tell the customer that the electrician should remove the receptacle above electric baseboard heat, and blank off the outlet.

Robert why not simply move the heater to one side, or split it down to two smaller ones? This way you can leave the outlets at the required spacing.

John K.

Good Answer, but your never around when my brain take a holiday.

Robert, it's a matter of making a distinction between what I like, and what the rules are.

That's a common problem HI's often have; they assert their opinions are the 'right way,' but the rule books don't back them up. If your're going to say something is 'wrong,' you better be able to justify it.

In this instance, I believe the NEC needs some major editing. Until then, we're stuck accepting receptacles over heaters.

John Steinke

In my State, with were two family are inspected by state electrical
inspectors, many won't accept your agruement, that receptacle are
allow over electric baseboard heaters.

But I will go back and re-read all previous post, to help me understand
this better. Thanks for your recent post. /S/ Robert.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Don't be disarmed by the use of the words "should not". Recommendations and the use of should in listings and manufacturer's instructions are NOT elective nor voluntary.

Watson,

Sorry old chap, but "should" is only a "strong recommendation" and IS BOTH "elective" AND "voluntary".

I asked for clarification from UL and "should" is a strong recommendation and is not the same as "shall". They will also be reviewing their use of the word "should" to verify which is intended and will make corrections.

See the e-mail from UL below.

On this part, though, you are at least somewhat correct.

Unless the listing and instructions specific to the mfg, make, model, ALLOW for A/ANY receptacle to be placed in the vicinity, of the electric baseboard heater, it may not be.

The standard to which baseboard heaters are listed to does not allow receptacles to be above baseboard heaters - this is also addressed in e-mail below from UL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com [mailto:Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:25 AM
To: codeman@AskCodeMan.com
Cc: Robert.Wozniak@us.ul.com; Richard.J.Berman@us.ul.com; Thomas.R.Lichtenstein@us.ul.com
Subject: RE: Answer to Receptacle ?

Jerry,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Sorry that no one responded to you with your emailed question to the UL technical question page.

I contacted the Primary UL Engineer (PDE) for the UL category KLDR (BASEBOARD HEATERS) for clarification of the term "should" in the UL White Book. After we reviewed the Standard (UL 1042) it was determined that the language in the standard is more restrictive than the language in the NEC, since in the NEC there is no restriction of installing baseboard heaters below a receptacle. Therefore, the language in the UL White Book is a strong recommendation since it is not an NEC requirement not to install baseboard heaters below electrical receptacles. However, the language in UL 1042 5th Edition contains mandatory terms that baseboard heaters are not permitted below receptacles also electrical cords are required to be kept away from baseboard heaters. So since the standard is more restrictive then the NEC, it would be a violation of 110.3(B) to install baseboard heaters below a receptacle.

The PDE for UL category KLDR stated that he will research this further to determine if the language in the UL White Book needs to be revised.

The UL category KLDR (BASEBOARD HEATERS) is evaluated to the standard UL 1042 and below are clauses from UL 1042 which contain mandatory terms such as "Keep .... Away From Heater" and "is not".

UL 1042-2009
59.18 Each heater shall be permanently marked on a surface where it will be readily visible from the exterior of the heater after the heater is installed or positioned as intended with the following wording or the equivalent, "CAUTION - High Temperature, Keep Electrical Cords, Drapes, And Other Furnishings Away From Heater." The marking shall be in letters not less than 1/8 in (3.2 mm) in height and shall be of a permanent type.

61.2.1.1 Clear and complete instructions for the installation and operation of a baseboard-type heater system shall be provided. The instructions shall include the following items:g) A warning that the heater is not to be located below an electrical convenience receptacle.

Thank you for contacting UL for clarification and bringing this to our attention.

Jeffrey A. Fecteau C.B.O., E.C.O
Staff Engineer Associate
Regulatory Services
Underwriters Laboratories
Wyoming, MN. 55092
(952) 838-5453 Cell
(651) 408-8562 Office
(847) 313-3869 Fax
Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com

Assuming that the letter is genuine - and I have no reason to dobt that it is genuine - that's a very nice bit of clarification.

I note that the letter is dated today, and does not tell us when the 5th edition of the standard - the one with this change - was adopted.

Originally Posted by John Steinke

I note that the letter is dated today, and does not tell us when the 5th edition of the standard - the one with this change - was adopted.

John,

While that does not give a year for the 5th edition, it also does not state that wording was a change.

He is simply referring to the current edition, as that is what UL works with ... current standards.

It is quite possible that the wording in the actual standard has been that way for some time.

The UL 1042 4th edition was in 1994 and had changes in 1998, not sure when the 5th edition was done.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Watson,

Sorry old chap, but "should" is only a "strong recommendation" and IS BOTH "elective" AND "voluntary".

I asked for clarification from UL and "should" is a strong recommendation and is not the same as "shall". They will also be reviewing their use of the word "should" to verify which is intended and will make corrections.

See the e-mail from UL below.

On this part, though, you are at least somewhat correct.


The standard to which baseboard heaters are listed to does not allow receptacles to be above baseboard heaters - this is also addressed in e-mail below from UL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com [mailto:Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:25 AM
To: codeman@AskCodeMan.com
Cc: Robert.Wozniak@us.ul.com; Richard.J.Berman@us.ul.com; Thomas.R.Lichtenstein@us.ul.com
Subject: RE: Answer to Receptacle ?

Jerry,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Sorry that no one responded to you with your emailed question to the UL technical question page.

I contacted the Primary UL Engineer (PDE) for the UL category KLDR (BASEBOARD HEATERS) for clarification of the term "should" in the UL White Book. After we reviewed the Standard (UL 1042) it was determined that the language in the standard is more restrictive than the language in the NEC, since in the NEC there is no restriction of installing baseboard heaters below a receptacle. Therefore, the language in the UL White Book is a strong recommendation since it is not an NEC requirement not to install baseboard heaters below electrical receptacles. However, the language in UL 1042 5th Edition contains mandatory terms that baseboard heaters are not permitted below receptacles also electrical cords are required to be kept away from baseboard heaters. So since the standard is more restrictive then the NEC, it would be a violation of 110.3(B) to install baseboard heaters below a receptacle.

The PDE for UL category KLDR stated that he will research this further to determine if the language in the UL White Book needs to be revised.

The UL category KLDR (BASEBOARD HEATERS) is evaluated to the standard UL 1042 and below are clauses from UL 1042 which contain mandatory terms such as "Keep .... Away From Heater" and "is not".

UL 1042-2009
59.18 Each heater shall be permanently marked on a surface where it will be readily visible from the exterior of the heater after the heater is installed or positioned as intended with the following wording or the equivalent, "CAUTION - High Temperature, Keep Electrical Cords, Drapes, And Other Furnishings Away From Heater." The marking shall be in letters not less than 1/8 in (3.2 mm) in height and shall be of a permanent type.

61.2.1.1 Clear and complete instructions for the installation and operation of a baseboard-type heater system shall be provided. The instructions shall include the following items:g) A warning that the heater is not to be located below an electrical convenience receptacle.

Thank you for contacting UL for clarification and bringing this to our attention.

Jeffrey A. Fecteau C.B.O., E.C.O
Staff Engineer Associate
Regulatory Services
Underwriters Laboratories
Wyoming, MN. 55092
(952) 838-5453 Cell
(651) 408-8562 Office
(847) 313-3869 Fax
Jeffrey.Fecteau@us.ul.com

You'll note the author copied his correspondance to Tom Lichtenstein in Northbrook.

Tom Lichtenstein (Senior Staff Engineer, Regulatory Services, Northbrook) Warren Shill, (Lead Engineer Associate, Regulatory Services) and John Taecker, (Senior Staff Engineer, Regulatory Services) have consistantly authored and reviewed AUTHORIZED PUBLISHED OPINION responses to Questions on the issues regarding the phrases SHOULD NOT pertaining to Manufacturer's Instructions and Recommendations that conflict with the conclusions you draw and some of what has been represented to have been proposed in the email of Jeffrey Fecteau.

To ignore a "should not" or a "should" in a Listing specific Manufacturer's Instruction or Manufacturer's Recommendation would be to do so contrary to the Listing and in conflict with NEC 110.3.

Often a Listed item is covered under more than one Code. However, it is also the option of a manufacturer to exceed the minimum safety requirements of a particular Code, or Standard. The item, as Listed (and instructions and labels are a PART of that Listing). Only an AHJ can override that and knowingly "approve" the installation, if the AHJ determines that the level of safety met is within the minimum code(s) standard(s) in that jurisdiction and conflicts with no other, which of course is equally provided for in the Code (NEC) at 90.4.

Now, apparently you have further muddled the issue as the email has further confused and injected a another level of Peck-Fog: Listed Instructions REQUIRED by the Standard & Labeling Language REQUIRED by the Standard vs. Manufacturers Instructions and Recommendations elected by the manufacturer and which were reviewed and made a part of the Listing and examination process to determine the Listing itself.

We've had this discussion before. Example a manufacturer of a gas fireplace references installation instructions are to meet or exceed NFPA 54, which requires more stringent than IRC sections, your jurisdiction hasn't adopted it, what rules? The most restrictive, unless specific waiver from the AHJ, BUT unless it complies with the manufacturer's instructions - any warranty and most if not all liability to the manufacturer is forfieted.

1. I doubt the author provided you with permission to publish the response email, and it would be against the policy to do so without providing the entirety of the text of the INQUIRY Email.

2. The quality of the response is always relative to the quality of the inquiry.

3. You should have provided the full-text of your inquiry email.

4. I have already engaged in correspondance and followup regarding this purported reply, (which I note was neither final nor complete, as per the author) with more Senior Staff Engineers at UL, since if there has been a major policy change from the last decade, it hasn't been announced.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

To ignore a "should not" or a "should" in a Listing specific Manufacturer's Instruction or Manufacturer's Recommendation would be to do so contrary to the Listing and in conflict with NEC 110.3.

Quite to the contrary.

"Should" and "should not" are strong recommendations, whereas "shall" and "shall not" are commands.

I have no doubt that, due to my inquiry, the words "should" and "should not" will be replaced with "shall" and "shall not" where they are meant as commands, and, where they were really only strong recommendations, those strong recommendations will likely have the wording changed to "recommended" and "not recommended".

4. I have already engaged in correspondance and followup regarding this purported reply, (which I note was neither final nor complete, as per the author) with more Senior Staff Engineers at UL, since if there has been a major policy change from the last decade, it hasn't been announced.

Very good for you. Let us know what the final outcome is.

However, I see *YOU* did not include *YOUR* inquiry here, so why on earth should you complain about me not including my inquiry here? Oh, because Watson is the complainer who complains about everything he does not get his way on.

Maybe I have become a thorn in your side because I have not stepped aside to allow you to bully us into submission from your incessant rantings? Too bad if I have.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Quite to the contrary.

"Should" and "should not" are strong recommendations, whereas "shall" and "shall not" are commands.

I have no doubt that, due to my inquiry, the words "should" and "should not" will be replaced with "shall" and "shall not" where they are meant as commands, and, where they were really only strong recommendations, those strong recommendations will likely have the wording changed to "recommended" and "not recommended".



Very good for you. Let us know what the final outcome is.

However, I see *YOU* did not include *YOUR* inquiry here, so why on earth should you complain about me not including my inquiry here? Oh, because Watson is the complainer who complains about everything he does not get his way on.

Maybe I have become a thorn in your side because I have not stepped aside to allow you to bully us into submission from your incessant rantings? Too bad if I have.

More B.S. Jerry Peck!!!

That my post was back in mid-August and you are relying on the anything pertaining to the Fifth edition which wasn't published until August 31,2009 and of course wouldn't apply to something installed let alone manufactured prior to that date is stupendous.

The onus is upon you. What I stated is per PUBLISHED, available to the PUBLIC, REVIEWED UL OPINION.

You, on the otherhand, manufactured and edited something, represented it as publishable, credible, official, complete, authoritative, that was and is NOT. And you didn't bother to include the LIMITED inquiry as to which it supposedly pertains to.

Published and authoritative information from UL contradicts what you have "posted". 1042-2009 wouldn't pertain to the Original Post, since it pre-dates the original post date.

You and your so-called "evidence" is MOOT. PUBLISHED OPINION and Authoritative documentation from SENIOR Staff is, and that is accessible as I have previously indicated. Ex Post Facto is NOT.

You are the bully, and when caught in your web of fog you resort to ad-hominum attacks and pizzing in the wind.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

You, on the otherhand, manufactured and edited something,

Watson,

What a boorish brute you are, trying to take everyone down to your wallowing in the gutter level.

I did not "manufacture" or "edit" anything.

I present the facts, as I have stated before, word for word, copied and pasted.

All you ever present is reference numbers and names and no content, then try to tell us the content is what you want it to say.

Pardon us if we do not believe much, if anything, of what you say.

I've said it before and will repeat it again: Grow up.

Negative.

1. Elective and voluntary refers to the Manufacturer with regards to the Standard and Listing. The Manufacturer voluntarily ELECTED to LIST the product with a higher level "instruction" and exceeds the Standard(s).

2. All such equipment is subject to AALZ.

3. When said Manufacturer "elects" in a "voluntary" way to further recommend...and include critical instructions...said Listed item is reviewed with said instructions and labeling...for its Listing.

4. Manufacturer's "recommendations" should be followed to be compliant with 110.3(B). Manufacturer's critical instructions including "should(s)" and "should not(s)" should be followed. TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE IN NON-COMPLIANCE WITH NEC 110.3(B). This has been PUBLISHED policy by UL for the at least the last decade.

5. UL emails contain information regarding their limited use and non-publication. To "use" them without the language of the interogatory is also against policy, permitted use, etc.

6. Publishing a UL employee's personal home telephone number (home office) and personal cell phone number is not only a breach of trust, a violation of UL policy regarding the use of email and/or fax communcations, but is truly a GUTTER TACTIC.

7. Selectively communicating with a junior level employee with a mere year of employment with UL, knowing the communication is an incomplete and interim one, and publishing it, claiming it is final, authoritative, and unlimited, is a GUTTER TACTIC.

8. Said author is junior and reporting to Berman you likewise is under Lichtenstein. Said communication is incomplete, erroneous regarding prior policy and published opinion, and frankly doesn't apply since the 5th edition was effective at the end of August this year, and this string was obviously pertaining to items manufactured and listed prior to that time.

9. Your communciations with UL as a "codeman" implying an active AHJ chief status are GUTTERISH. Your failure to post the complete inquiry (showing how limited it was) was TOTALLY GUTTERISH.

UL Senior Engineering Staff have compiled, reviewed, and reported regarding UL Policy and authored authoritative OPINION and INTREPRETATION regarding the harmonized Standards, application of the NEC and Manufacturer's Instructions, Recommendations, etc. I have quoted this and offered links to their web site.

Meanwhile since Annual Section Meetings are currently ongoing, YOU WILL HAVE TO BE PAITENT as I am regarding a considered response from UL.

Unless I missed an announcement that wasn't brought over to the new site redesign, I seriously doubt there has been any sort of change in UL Regulatory Opinion, Policy, or the Style guide for Standards. With scores of STDs their might be someting pending in the instant area, but I doubt it.

I

Watson,

(sigh)

Your entire post is a trash talking, GUTTERISH, GUTTER TACTIC.

WTF that means.

Watson,

I have repeated repeated this, and shall repeat it yet again:

If you spent even the tiniest fraction of your time trying to be helpful and informative here, you could be an asset to this board.

As it is, though, you have bored us with your rants and carrying-ons to the point that whatever you do only makes you look even more foolish, like the bully trying to steal everyones' lunch or lunch money - only no one is allowing you to run rough-shod over us.

Now be your boorish blow-hard self and slither out through that gutter you slimed your way in through. And please, don't leave that slime trail behind you this time, it just makes a mess the rest of us either have to step around or clean up.

Jeez, what a boorish boar of a bore. I would say a boorish oaf except that you are not stupid ... clumsy and boorish no doubt, just not stupid, so the best description is a boorish bully (but that is redundant, isn't it?).

It's time to give credit where credit is due.

I have reviewed the appropriate UL standard, editions as old as the 70's, and the standard is pretty clear: UL doesn't want receptacles over baseboard heaters, or the drapery resting against them either.

If you're going to assert that having a receptacle over a heater is a violation, you're going to have to hang your hat on the UL standard as your authority.

Kudos to Jerry for running this down, and he is citing it correctly. The UL guy cited it correctly.

Let me tell you something about UL: I don't care if the guy was with them a week; you can be sure that letter didn't go out without consultation all over that bureaucracy. Some of the 'senior' people identified, btw, have as their areas of expertise things like firewalls and HVAC - not electrical.

Now, UL is never going to say that something 'violates' a listing. If you want to accuse them of waffling, I won't argue; more correctly, it's not their job. The call has to be made by the AHJ, and no one else.

It is fair to ask the AHJ upon what he bases his opinion. In this regard, the same principle applies to a home inspection. Jerry has found a basis for his opinion. Case closed.

Originally Posted by Bob Hunt

I inspected a home today with electrical baseboard heaters, unusual in this area. The owner said that the house had just been rewired to bring all electrical components up to code.

In the dining room there were two receptacles about three feet above the heater. I don't recall an exception for height of receptacles over such heaters, only the prohibition. Can't find an exception in the code but maybe I am missing one.

Hello Bob:

See page 201 in the new UL Whitebook under:

BASEBOARD HEATERS (KLDR) USE AND INSTALLATION

Go to www.ul.com and download a free copy.

110.3(b) in the NEC is the key