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  1. #1
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Greetings!

    Although a frequent lurker, I haven't posted here in quite a while, I enjoy reading the threads. I'm a lowly attorney (and an avid do-it-yourselfer!), not an inspector!

    Here's my question... I am wondering if anyone has any insight.

    I have a cement in-ground pool in my backyard, with a water pump and heat pump on the side of my house, connected to a D-Square outdoor service subpanel next to the pump/filter/heater installation.

    I just purchased a new heat pump, since my present one went dead on me. I am doing the install myself, since it's very easy (re-attach the two water flow tubes, and re-attach the two 240V wires and the ground. Voila, mission accomplished.)

    ~ I did have to switch the breaker from a 30A to a 40A and I also needed an 8AWG cable instead of 10AWD. (New heat pump is 100,000BTU vs. 85,000BTU). I also installed a new PVC conduit into the service panel, since there was no way I was going to slide an 8AWG outdoor cable through the same conduit as another 10AWG cable, regardless of the amount of lubricant I used in there!)

    Everything went well, HOWEVER, I seem to have run into something that is quite new to me.

    On the heat pump instructions, it discussed a bonding wire. There is also a copper connector on the outside of the heat pump for this ‘bonding’ wire.

    I did a bit of research, and it turns out that all pool electrical fixtures (pool light; pump; heater) must be 'bonded' together, and attached to the underground metal rebarb grid of the swimming pool.

    Apparently, all pool fixtures should have a bonding wire so that all components are attached to one another, thus equalizing the current in the event of a short. Bonding is not the same as grounding, and according to some resources, attaching the bonding connector to the service panel's ground is not recommended! (Tempting, but not recommended)

    If there is no bonding wire, an alternative is to apparently plant a rod 6 feet deep into the ground, and attach the bonding connector to it with a copper wire.

    Okay, now I am stuck!

    My house has twice passed inspection. The pool assembly is 100% kosher, with proper outdoor cable & proper AWG wire; PVC tubing up the service panel; GFCI Outlets; GFCI breaker on the pool light circuit; everything on a level concrete slab; etc. etc.

    The issue is that I see no bonding wires of any shape or form at all! Nothing on the pump motor; and looking through the conduits into the service panel, I just see the usual hot/neutral/ground wires.

    There is no bonding anything in sight! And certainly, the old heat pump didn’t have any other wires.

    I have in front of me the instructions from the old Ultra heat pump; the Jacuzzi pool light; and the Hayward water pump motor. There is just no mentioning of any bonding cables.

    I am reading an interesting PDF about the NEC, Article 680, regarding swimming pools and spas, and I see a lot of references to ‘grounding’ with (Bonding) in parentheses. Ie “The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the underwater luminaire must not be spliced…” or “The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor can terminate at the grounding terminal of a listed pool transformer that meets the requirements of 680.23(A)(2).”

    So really… what on earth (no pun intended! Get it?) do I need to do with this Bonding connection sticking through the outside of my new heat pump, considering none of my other pool appliances seem to have this.

    Any insight is certainly appreciated!

    Thanks!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    There are many questions - how old is your pool ?
    Is the pool pump tied to a equipotential ground grid?

    The eqipotential grid is not to equilize the current in the event of a short. It is put everything around the pool in the same electrical plane in reference to stray current.

    DO NOT ATTACH THE EQUIPOTENTIAL BOND TO THE ELECTRICAL SERVICE GROUND WIRES OR PANEL!!!!!!!
    DOING SO COULD ACTUALLY CAUSE LIFE THREATENING PROBLEMS

    driving a ground rod for this bonding lug will do ZERO for you except waste your money and time- not to mention give you a false sense of safety

    Consult the services of a licensed and insured electrician for this.


  3. #3
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Thanks for the reply!

    First of all, don't worry -- I certainly will not attach the protruding "bonding" connector to anything. Not until I get a professional opinion.

    The pool is 16 years old, installed in 1993.

    Although they aren't licensed professionals, I did mention this bonding conundrum to the electrical guy at Home Depot, as well as the heat pump rep at the pool store. Both had absolutely no idea about this.

    I just think the whole thing is strange, considering no other pool appliance (my water pump; submersible light; poolside outlets; old heat pump) makes any mention of this at all.

    Of course, the manuals all talk about amperage; adequate grounding; GFCI protection; attaching the ground wire first; proper wire gauge; etc.

    There is just nothing about bonding.

    Perhaps it's a Canadian thing vs. US thing.

    I have a friend who is an electrician. I speak to him occasionally. I'll probably give him a shout on Monday. I was just wondering how none of this was noticed before... Weird!


  4. #4
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Glazer View Post
    The pool is 16 years old, installed in 1993.
    Bonding became a requirement in 1968 down here in the states (as I recall without looking it up, it was 1968).

    I just think the whole thing is strange, considering no other pool appliance (my water pump; submersible light; poolside outlets; old heat pump) makes any mention of this at all.
    I would have thought that the Canadian code would be that far behind the US code.

    Perhaps it's a Canadian thing vs. US thing.
    Maybe, but 25 years difference and more?

    I have a friend who is an electrician. I speak to him occasionally. I'll probably give him a shout on Monday. I was just wondering how none of this was noticed before... Weird!
    Please ask him when bonding became standard in Canada, and let us know, thanks.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Grounding vs Bonding — Part 11 of 12
    From the website above:
    250.4(A)(3). It also has nothing to do with creating a path for fault current. Therefore, the 8 AWG or larger solid copper equipotential bonding conductor required by 680.26(C) isn't required to extend to (or attach to) any panelboard, service equipment, or electrode.
    This site has some good information (I can't vouch for all of it since I have not read it all) and may be helpful for understanding the concepts.
    BUT, contact a competent licensed electrician to bring your pool up to modern standards. Don't listen to the HD or parts counter guys! This is to important to cheap out with free information, THIS IS NOT A DO IT YOURSELF ISSUE! Some body can DIE!

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  6. #6
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Thanks for the warning!

    Don't worry... I put in a call to a friend of the family who is an electrician. He'll pass by this week.

    It really is just so bizarre how my old heat pump had three wires leading into it from the subpanel... Black, White, Ground. Nothing else. Period. Same as the pool light and water pump.

    Removing that heat pump and putting another in its place, just didn't seem like rocket science. Especially since on 240, One doesn't even have to worry about which wire is hot and which is neutral.

    I was truly surprised to learn about the bonding issue, and I am really curious about it. I guess I'll find out what the electrician has to say when he comes.

    Should be interesting!

    I will keep you all posted!

    Mike


  7. #7
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Glazer View Post
    I was truly surprised to learn about the bonding issue, and I am really curious about it. I guess I'll find out what the electrician has to say when he comes.

    Mike,

    The reason is it called bonding and not grounding is that with grounding you actually take things back to a single reference point at the service equipment, which is then taken back to "earth grounding".

    Not wanting to complicate the issue, but you can have an "ungrounded ground" in that that zero reference point is not grounded. While this is done for some a/c systems, the easiest to use as an example and allow for understanding of this practice is wiring systems in automobiles - "earth ground" is really only the frame/body of the vehicle, not "earth ground".

    Now to bonding, which is different from grounding in that you are not really caring what voltage the equipotential bonding plane is at (which could be -0- volts to 120 volts to ground, or anywhere between, and possibly even more under specific conditions, the "equipotential bonding plane", though, is like the frame/body of the vehicle in that any place on that frame/body you touch will be the same voltage, meaning you will not get a shock, or at most a very minor one - very minor as you would be dealing in the voltage potential across points on the equipotential bonding grid, which all should be -0- or very very close to it.

    That means that if you are in the water and the water is energized to, for example, 120 volts "to ground", that anything and everything you touch within 5 feet horizontally of the pool water up to 12 high will also be at that same 120 volts "to ground" - but at -0- volts to the water where you are, meaning no shock.

    Now, you walk out 5 feet and step off the concrete pool deck onto earth ground, you will get the shitch knocked out of you, BUT you will not be in the water or within 5 feet of the water, and when you yell and fall down, you will not fall into the water and drown.

    There is no way to protect you "forever" distance from the water, so it is set at 5 feet horizontally and 12 feet high. Think of a box set over the pool, enough larger than the pool to extend out 5 feet all the way around the pool with the box extending 12 feet high. Inside that box you are 'safe', outside that box you are 'at risk'.

    Back to the vehicle frame/body with its earth ground and the battery being 12 volts positive from the frame/body, then someone connects a fence charger to the frame/body and drops a chain down to the ground (the chain is isolated from the frame/body, which energizes the frame/body in relation to earth ground below - the frame/body becomes "the fence" for the fence charger).

    Nothing will happen to the vehicle and nothing will happen to the people IN the vehicle, but if you walk up to the vehicle and touch it - ZAP! - you get the shitch knocked out of you. The frame/body is 'safe' and outside the frame/body is 'at risk'.

    Yeah, I know that because in high school electronics we did something similar with a friends car. Drive it to the beach, drop the chain, lean out and start talking to a friend, they walk over and lean on the car and - ZAP!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Mitchell Toelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Mike,

    You were right when you mentioned the instructions stating that all metal housed equipment needs to be bonded, including pump housings, filter housings, heaters, etc. This should be ammended to include any metal surround fencing you have to prevent access to the pool area.

    I often review pools and equipment where the bond wire has been severed or cut off somewhere underground near the equipment. If bonding was required when you pool was installed there may verywell be a bonding wire nearby. While you're waiting for your electrician friend to arrive do some digging around just below the surface around your equipment and see if you don't find a bare copper wire somewhere.

    In the end you should know that even if this was not required when the pool was installed it should be upgraded...definitely.

    Hope this help and all works out for you.


  9. #9
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Hi guys,

    Thanks very much for all the explanations! I think I have to re-read through them again. I think I qualify as a small step above layman, but when it comes to electricity, it's always been something that I need to better understand.

    So, my electrician buddy passed by.

    Here are some notes for y'all:

    1 - He was impressed with the conduit I installed into the subpanel, but told me I need to crimp the bottom. He said it wasn't a code requirement, but I should have done it. (The other three conduits don't have any crimps at the bottom.

    2 - He said despite what the heat pump instructions say, I could have easily have left a 30 AMP circuit breaker in there. He said only on the hottest days, would it pop, if even then. I think it was drawing 22 Amps.

    3 - He said he wouldn't have changed the 10AWG wire to an 8AWG. He said it would have been just fine. I actually am glad I did. I remember when I bought the house, our inspector noted a few wires that were too thin for the breakers. He said I must have overpaid for the cable, too. (I think I did!)

    4 - He kinda laughed in the fact that the main panel has a 40 AMP 240 line going out to the subpanel, and said that if the submersible pool light/rock garden lights/heat pump/water pump all don't blow a 40 amp breaker, then that's proof that I could have left the 30 amp breaker on my new heat pump.

    5 - He said if it blows, we could put a 50 amp breaker inside the main panel leading to the subpanel. When I suggested that we'd also probably need to switch the 8AWG cable heading outside with a 6AWG cable, he said, "nahhh... it should be fine.."

    6 - He pointed out the lug that I missed on the pool water pump. Of course, there was no bonding wire through it!

    7 - He brought over some copper wire and a small clamp, and told me to...
    (a) clamp one end onto the new heat pump

    (b) run it right through the water pump

    (c) drill a hole through my wall, and run the copper wire right into my workroom where the main panel is. (It's that very wall)

    (d) attach the new copper wire with a lug he gave me onto the copper grounding wire that leaves my main panel, and attaches to my cold water pipe down the hallway.

    And that's the story.

    It's actually a little ironic that by doing it myself, it actually ended up being a little safer (40A breaker & an 8 gauge wire) than had he did it himself.

    I said that it was my understanding that I didn't the bonding wire should attach to the grounding wire exiting the main panel. He said that the alternative isn't so simple, because he thinks Canadian code requires two rods, 8FT into the ground, 3FT apart, and it's a total pain.

    He said that the copper grounding cable from my box that goes right to the cold water in pipe "cannot be more grounded than that."

    So, that's the scoop. He said he's going to read up on bonding and do some research.

    Heater is on. Pool went up by .1 of a degree already. And he said just attach the bonding wire before I go swimming.

    I asked him about my rope lights and my four 100W spot lights in the rock garden a few feet from the water. He said, "hmm.. yeah, it's probably against the code, but as long as the outlet is a GFCI it's cool."

    He was pretty nonchalant about the whole thing and was amused at my adherence to the proper sized cables and breaker......!

    Well, I guess that's why we have inspectors...! I hope I did a pretty good job at laying out the situation and his views. Interesting..

    Last edited by Mike Glazer; 06-22-2009 at 06:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Mike,

    I started reading through what your electrician friend said and was smiling and not going to comment, then I came to a Whoa! comment he made and realized I really needed to comment on some of what he said, so, here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Glazer View Post
    1 - He was impressed with the conduit I installed into the subpanel, but told me I need to crimp the bottom. He said it wasn't a code requirement, but I should have done it. (The other three conduits don't have any crimps at the bottom.
    You would need to explain that "crimp" he wants you to do to me as I have no idea what he is talking about, and, depending on what and how he wants you to "crimp" that conduit, I say NO! DON'T TOUCH THAT tool you are going to crimp it with - there is a reason the others ARE NOT crimped - because you do not want them crimped.

    Okay, depending on what you explain, m-a-y-b-e ... but I cannot think of anything that would need a crimp or that you would want to crimp or that even would be acceptable to be crimped.

    [quote[2 - He said despite what the heat pump instructions say, I could have easily have left a 30 AMP circuit breaker in there. He said only on the hottest days, would it pop, if even then. I think it was drawing 22 Amps.[/quote]

    Regardless of what it is drawing, read the label and install whatever the label tells you to install.

    If the label gives a minimum circuit ampacity of between 30 and 50 amps, then you would want the #8 AWG. If it gives a minimum circuit ampacity of between 20 and 35 amps you could technically have left the #10, but why push it? You did good replacing the #10 with a #8.

    3 - He said he wouldn't have changed the 10AWG wire to an 8AWG. He said it would have been just fine. I actually am glad I did. I remember when I bought the house, our inspector noted a few wires that were too thin for the breakers. He said I must have overpaid for the cable, too. (I think I did!)
    Without knowing what the label on the heat pump says, I can only say that the #8 is far better, and that you *may* have been able to use the #10 if the label ampacity size is low enough. Pay no attention to that electrician, be glad you installed the #8 - codes are "MINIMUM" requirements and you went with a "good common sense requirement".

    4 - He kinda laughed in the fact that the main panel has a 40 AMP 240 line going out to the subpanel, and said that if the submersible pool light/rock garden lights/heat pump/water pump all don't blow a 40 amp breaker, then that's proof that I could have left the 30 amp breaker on my new heat pump.
    Kind of sort of right, and plays into his logic for leaving the #10 if it were him, except that #10 is only rated for 35 amp when used to the heat pump, use it as a feeder to that pool panel and you would have needed to have gone to the #8 anyway. Thus the "kind of sort of" is more like "Huh? What was he thinking?" Again, you did the right thing by going to the #8 feeder to that pool panel.

    5 - He said if it blows, we could put a 50 amp breaker inside the main panel leading to the subpanel. When I suggested that we'd also probably need to switch the 8AWG cable heading outside with a 6AWG cable, he said, "nahhh... it should be fine.."
    Yep, with with that #8 you could go to a 50 amp breaker as most, if not all, new panels are rated for 75 degree C terminals, however, if your pool panel is an older panel, it may only be rated for 60 degree C terminals, in which case you would not be able to just "put in a 50 amp breaker" in the panel in the workshop. If it an older panel, and if you need 50 amps, you may need to replace that feeder with a #6, which is rated at 55 amps with 60 degree C terminals, or 65 amps if you replaced the pool panel with a new one (making sure it is rated for 75 degree C terminals).

    6 - He pointed out the lug that I missed on the pool water pump. Of course, there was no bonding wire through it!
    Yep, further evidence that nothing is properly grounded. As Mitchell said, the bond wire *may* be just cut off, but it also *MAY* never have been installed.

    This is the Whoa! part I mentioned at the beginning ... WHOA! DO NOT DO THIS! DOES YOUR FRIEND not know what he is doing, or does he just not care? (parts C and D )
    7 - He brought over some copper wire and a small clamp, and told me to...
    (a) clamp one end onto the new heat pump
    That if what should be done.

    (b) run it right through the water pump
    That is what should be done

    (c) drill a hole through my wall, and run the copper wire right into my workroom where the main panel is. (It's that very wall)

    (d) attach the new copper wire with a lug he gave me onto the copper grounding wire that leaves my main panel, and attaches to my cold water pipe down the hallway.
    NO! DO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR electrician friend!

    You are trying to "bond" the pump and heat pump, NOT "ground" them, they are already "grounded" by their circuits.

    You will need to take that #8 bare copper bond wire and bond it (connect it) to all things metal which are within 5 feet of the pool water and less than 12 feet high, AND to the steel in your concrete pool deck (presuming you have one). Bonding that to the steel in your concrete pool deck does, yes, mean chipping out some concrete to expose the steel, then using a proper connection terminal connect to that steel, then repair the concrete with a proper concrete repair material, preparing the old concrete properly for proper adhesion of the new repair material.

    I said that it was my understanding that I didn't the bonding wire should attach to the grounding wire exiting the main panel. He said that the alternative isn't so simple, because he thinks Canadian code requires two rods, 8FT into the ground, 3FT apart, and it's a total pain.

    He said that the copper grounding cable from my box that goes right to the cold water in pipe "cannot be more grounded than that."

    So, that's the scoop. He said he's going to read up on bonding and do some research.
    Yeah, he sure needs to.

    I am serious.

    And he said just attach the bonding wire before I go swimming.
    NOT LIKE HE SAID!

    Is he trying to KILL YOU?

    I asked him about my rope lights and my four 100W spot lights in the rock garden a few feet from the water. He said, "hmm.. yeah, it's probably against the code, but as long as the outlet is a GFCI it's cool."

    He was pretty nonchalant about the whole thing and was amused at my adherence to the proper sized cables and breaker......!
    I WOULD NOT call him to give you any more electrical advise, and I would DEFINITELY NOT call him to have him help you.

    Go here: IAEI Magazine Online , read the second and third articles on swimming pools.

    Then this: bonding « IAEI Magazine Online , which has this: (underlining is mine)
    The CE Code requirements for bonding and grounding are perhaps, the most important safety rules for electrical installations. Each person deemed to be qualified to do electrical work must clearly understand what bonding and grounding is, why it is necessary and how it must be done. And yet the basic principles of these essential code requirements are often misunderstood.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Good discussion.

    Bonding, grounding. The safety measures both entail so much. I for one can never get enough. Pools, I inspect all the time and I am always looking for a better way to explain it to my clients. Yes, I know of bonding and grounding but one must keep it reasonabley simple (not to simple) for clients to understand.

    Like I said.....Good discussion.


  12. #12
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Indeed!

    Thanks very much for the detailed explanation, Jerry. Very interesting, indeed.

    I have been reading tons online regarding bonding, and it's becoming more and more clear. In a nutshell, I'd explain as the difference between grounding something (ie. providing a path for stray current to make its way to the earth in the event of a fault), versus throwing all metal items near the pool, and all equipment into a big huge metal basket, to help ensure that everything all shares the same electric charge). Over-simplification, but an interesting analogy.

    What's interesting is how many people just get it wrong. Pool guys; inspectors; electricians; etc. It's as if "Bonding vs. Grounding" seems to be one of the biggest misconceptions/misunderstandings out there.

    I had a few thoughts...

    First, I was wondering how to definitively tell if my pool is bonded or not. I will open a few junction boxes; move the ladder and rail; and see if I see any lugs and/or wires. (I am not sure if actually saw this, or I am having some sort of a false memory(!), but I seem to recall a lug inside the copper housing (niche) of my submersible light, when I was screwing the light into the housing at the beginning of the summer.) [note: I just looked at a random PDF installation guide of a pool light, and sure enough, it mentioned "#8 AWG Ground Connector is located at rear of niche." Maybe it wasn't a dream!]


    Second, I was wondering just how important it is to have everything bonded, as compared to other safety devices and mechanisms. For example, not connecting a ground wire = very bad. A non-GFCI protected outlet near pool? Very bad. No GFCI pool light breaker? Also really dangerous....

    ...Yet I am just wondering how detrimental it is to have a pool not properly bonded. Sounds to me like I am one of many pool owners with pump equipment that has unused bonding lugs. And many inspectors and/or electricians just don't know about bonding altogether.

    If I don't have the money to rip open my concrete deck and pool shell.... Does this really mean NO SWIMMING this summer? Do I visit my friends' homes and see if their equipment has unattached bonding lugs, and scare the daylights out of them, as Jerry did to me?

    I am reading about many pool users that feel tingles and so forth when they stand in puddles near their pool; especially with salt purifiers. Thankfully, that hasn't been a problem for me or the previous owner for 15 years.

    I am quite eager to see what I turn up tomorrow. I will also go to the pool manufacturer. They are still very much in business.

    I was also wondering if it helps to partially bond _some_ equipment. Would I be achieving ANYTHING (in the interim) by bonding the heat pump and pool pump to each other? Of course, it won't impact the pool itself, but if I do lean in-between the units to adjust the temperature; clean the filter; etc, at least I will have set up a mini equipotential bond between the two appliances.

    Very interesting....

    I think more than anything what surprises me is that I bought this house from the most careful and anal retentive of sellers who overbuilt this thing; the pool was installed by the most reputable company in the west part of Montreal; our inspector was one of the most recommended ones who seems to have caught everything; and I had a licensed electrician here today.

    Everyone must have noticed two empty lugs on the pumps; yet no one was phased (pardon the pun) by this lack of bonding.

    Maybe I'll just leave everything as-is but have my guests sign a waiver before they swim!

    I'll try to dig up more information tomorrow! Thanks for everything so far!


  13. #13
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    "partially bond _some_ equipment"

    No, you would be fully bonding some equipment.

    The more items you are able to bond to and put into your metal basket, the safer anyone in that metal basket will be.

    Bonding started one with a few things being bonded, then as experience and knowledge grew, more and more items were bonded to the equipotential plane (your metal basket).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Hi All,

    I have an update for you!

    First of all, Jerry, I never answered your question with respect to what my electrician said to do at the bottom of the conduit. He said I needed one of those rubber plugs that I assume will waterproof it. And second, I do stand corrected regarding your last post. It was a grammatical error regarding the "partial bonding".

    Okay, I did some research, and this is what I turned up:

    1 - Called the pool company
    =====================
    They said that bonding to the pool frame is absolutely, positively not done anymore. There is a grounding of the subpanel, and that's that. He said I was misinformed by my inspector. "We ground our pools; not bond them", is what he said, more or less. (It was in French)


    2 - Called the heat pump manufacturer
    =============================
    She said sometimes there is a bonding grid and sometimes not. She was speaking back and forth between me and her technician. I explained to her my set up (pumps on side of house near panel; pool in back), and told her about the conflicting info I have received. She said that I would only have to bond the electrical devices, with a copper wire, 5FT into the ground. When I told her my electrician said two rods are required by code, she went back to her technician, who said my electrician was correct.

    I then told her what my electrician wanted to do... Copper wire from the heat pump to the water pump, into the house, to the copper wire attached to my cold water intake pipe. She asked her technician, and he said absolutely fine.

    I said, "but what about the hand rail and ladder? Don't I have to run 100FT of copper wire to that?", and she said no, as they weren't electric. (Although come to think of it, I forgot to mention the submersible light....)

    3 - I called the Order of Electricians here in Québec
    ======================================
    I am waiting for a phone call back.


    4 - The pool company gave me the number of their main electrician, whom I will call.


    I guess it comes down to one of the following choices:

    1 - Bond the pumps together with a rod 5FT into the ground.
    2 - Bond the pumps together with two rods spaced apart.
    3 - Leave the bonding lugs empty (as they were for 15 years)
    4 - Bond the pumps together, and run the wire to my cold water pipe.
    5 - Bond the pumps together, break open 100FT of concrete, and run a copper wire to the pool ladder; railing; light and pool rebarb frame.


    Very interesting how my original home inspector; my electrician buddy; the heat pump manufacturer; and the pool manufacturer were all just not overly concerned with anything to do with bonding.

    Yet you guys in the States (and article 680) are realllllllly concerned with the bonding issue.

    I know another electrician whom I will call!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Glazer View Post
    First of all, Jerry, I never answered your question with respect to what my electrician said to do at the bottom of the conduit. He said I needed one of those rubber plugs that I assume will waterproof it.
    Mike,

    Huh?

    There should not be any open ends outside of junction boxes.

    So I am not following what you are saying.

    1 - Called the pool company
    =====================
    They said that bonding to the pool frame is absolutely, positively not done anymore. There is a grounding of the subpanel, and that's that. He said I was misinformed by my inspector. "We ground our pools; not bond them", is what he said, more or less. (It was in French)
    Wow! Sounds either: a) really weird, or b) he is one of the people in that article which does not understand what the code and that article are saying. I vote for b).

    2 - Called the heat pump manufacturer
    =============================
    She said sometimes there is a bonding grid and sometimes not. She was speaking back and forth between me and her technician. I explained to her my set up (pumps on side of house near panel; pool in back), and told her about the conflicting info I have received. She said that I would only have to bond the electrical devices, with a copper wire, 5FT into the ground. When I told her my electrician said two rods are required by code, she went back to her technician, who said my electrician was correct.
    Again, I vote for b) above.

    I then told her what my electrician wanted to do... Copper wire from the heat pump to the water pump, into the house, to the copper wire attached to my cold water intake pipe. She asked her technician, and he said absolutely fine.
    Seems that all answers are b) above.

    I said, "but what about the hand rail and ladder? Don't I have to run 100FT of copper wire to that?", and she said no, as they weren't electric. (Although come to think of it, I forgot to mention the submersible light....)
    In addition to b) above, I think you understand bonding around pools better than they do.

    3 - I called the Order of Electricians here in Québec
    ======================================
    I am waiting for a phone call back.


    4 - The pool company gave me the number of their main electrician, whom I will call.
    Do you have a link to the Canadian electrical code?

    I guess it comes down to one of the following choices:

    1 - Bond the pumps together with a rod 5FT into the ground.
    2 - Bond the pumps together with two rods spaced apart.
    3 - Leave the bonding lugs empty (as they were for 15 years)
    4 - Bond the pumps together, and run the wire to my cold water pipe.
    5 - Bond the pumps together, break open 100FT of concrete, and run a copper wire to the pool ladder; railing; light and pool rebarb frame.

    Very interesting how my original home inspector; my electrician buddy; the heat pump manufacturer; and the pool manufacturer were all just not overly concerned with anything to do with bonding.

    Yet you guys in the States (and article 680) are realllllllly concerned with the bonding issue.

    I know another electrician whom I will call!
    With that link to the Canadian electrical code we should be able to clear up what the code REQUIRES rather quickly.

    Yet you guys in the States (and article 680) are realllllllly concerned with the bonding issue.
    Yeah, because it says lives.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Mike Glazer's Avatar
    Mike Glazer Guest

    Default Re: This is new... An electrical heat pump question


    This is getting more and more interesting!
    Jerry, your retorts are great. Thank you. I'll take a pic of the conduits to show you what I was talking about.

    I am now trying to do find some statistics regarding swimming pool deaths/ electrocutions that are caused by improper or lack of bonding.

    I spoke with the electricians' order, and they referred me to the Department of Building Safety (loosely translated from French), who couldn't help much.

    I then called the CSA, which I think is the equivalent of your UL, who manages the Canadian code. On their site, they charge for the code, so I just called them. I was referred to their inspection department, and I am awaiting a call-back.

    I really am curious about the number of deaths due to improper bonding.

    In the meantime, my girlfriend went swimming today....!

    I am looking forward to discussing the situation with the CSA...


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