Panel Bonding, wirie bundling

Scott Hurt · 07-11-2009, 04:03 PM

This is a 1980 home. There is an individual breaker installed adjacent to the utility meter at the front of the yard. There is only one panel to the house, at an exterior location. Am I correct that the bus bar DOES NOT need bonding to the panel in this configuration.

Also there are multiple (more than 5 electrical cables) coming through a knockout open at the back of the panel. Would you folks write up that the cables should be routed through individual knockout openings? Or based on the age of the house, this configuration is okay.

Thanks for your assistance and glad I finally had the nerve to post!

Scottie

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Jim Katen · 07-11-2009, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Scott Hurt

This is a 1980 home. There is an individual breaker installed adjacent to the utility meter at the front of the yard.

What does this breaker feed? The house? An outbuilding? A single receptacle?

There is only one panel to the house, at an exterior location. Am I correct that the bus bar DOES NOT need bonding to the panel in this configuration.

Depends. Is the service disconnect at this panel or is it the breaker back at the meter?

If the service disconnect is at the meter, then the neutral terminal bar should be isolated from the panel enclosure and there should be a grounding terminal bar and a separate equipment grounding conductor.

If this panel is the service disconnect, then the neutral terminal should be bonded. In that case, though, I'd want to know what's going on with the single breaker at the meter.

Also there are multiple (more than 5 electrical cables) coming through a knockout open at the back of the panel. Would you folks write up that the cables should be routed through individual knockout openings? Or based on the age of the house, this configuration is okay.

Was each cable secured to the cabinet? If not, then the installation doesn't comply with 312.5(C). Back in 1980, it would have been 373.5(c), so it would have been wrong from the get go. Whether to write it up or not is your decision.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Scott Hurt · 07-11-2009, 07:09 PM

Thanks, Jim -- I can see I wasn't too clear.

I'm fairly sure the breaker in the yard is controling the panel, which serves the house. There is not an individual breaker disconnect at the panel.

**Jerry Peck** · 07-11-2009, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Scott Hurt

This is a 1980 home. There is an individual breaker installed adjacent to the utility meter at the front of the yard.

From your description, that would be the "service equipment" and the main disconnect (or service disconnect if less confusing).

The neutral should be bonded to ground at that service equipment.

There is only one panel to the house, at an exterior location. Am I correct that the bus bar DOES NOT need bonding to the panel in this configuration.

From your description that sounds like it is *not* the service equipment as the service equipment would be at the disconnect at the meter out in the yard.

If this is the case, then the neutral at the panel should *not* be bonded to ground, the neutral should be isolated from ground.

If this panel is the service equipment, then the entire setup would be screwed up.

Also there are multiple (more than 5 electrical cables) coming through a knockout open at the back of the panel. Would you folks write up that the cables should be routed through individual knockout openings?

Yes, that should be written up.

Or based on the age of the house, this configuration is okay.

That never was allowed.

Originally Posted by Scott Hurt

I'm fairly sure the breaker in the yard is controling the panel, which serves the house. There is not an individual breaker disconnect at the panel.

Which confirms that the disconnect at the meter is the service equipment.

A.D. Miller · 07-12-2009, 06:03 AM

From your description, that would be the "service equipment" and the main disconnect (or service disconnect if less confusing).

JP: How many lectures have been spewed forth from your particular pulpit regarding the use of the term "main" as it applies to panels? I lost count.

Scott Hurt · 07-12-2009, 08:03 AM

Jim, Jerry

Thanks for your inputs.

Aaron,

If you don't have anything valued added to say, then don't say it. If you want to gripe at Jerry, then create a new thread entitled, "Gripes I have with Jerry", but don't use my thread where I'm trying to learn.

A.D. Miller · 07-12-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Hurt

Jim, Jerry

Thanks for your inputs.

Aaron,

If you don't have anything valued added to say, then don't say it. If you want to gripe at Jerry, then create a new thread entitled, "Gripes I have with Jerry", but don't use my thread where I'm trying to learn.

SH: So now you are the thread police? FO.

Ted Menelly · 07-12-2009, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Hurt

Jim, Jerry

Thanks for your inputs.

Aaron,

If you don't have anything valued added to say, then don't say it. If you want to gripe at Jerry, then create a new thread entitled, "Gripes I have with Jerry", but don't use my thread where I'm trying to learn.

Geeesh

Once you start a thread (I do say start) it is then out of your control. It appears you have been around for a while and you will in fact know that Jerry is Mr lecturer. Aaron only commented on it.

If you don't like what Aaron says on "your thread" then ignore it. Just to let you know this is an open site to all. Any of those all's can add what ever they wish.

My goodness....Peeing around the campsite

As to "your thread". Disconnect at the meter area....panel next to the home with and seperated ground and neutral...very common and the way it should be. The panel at the home could have another main breaker for that panel (non service equipment) in it and in my opinion the smart way to do it instead of having to go out to the main disconnect or as Jerry will call it "main disconnect which is the service equipment" to shut the whole panel down or the non service equipment down.

You should just use "Main" and Sub" to describe the electric equipment...he loves that .

Hmm..electric equipment getting serviced....I just made it the service equipment

A.D. Miller · 07-12-2009, 09:55 AM

TM: I have some distinctly creative ideas regarding what this guy can do with "his thread". They involve, among other things sewing his lips shut. I volunteer to assist during that operation.

**Rick Hurst** · 07-12-2009, 10:29 AM

EVEN AFTER HE'S GONE, He'll have the last word.

A.D. Miller · 07-12-2009, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

EVEN AFTER HE'S GONE, He'll have the last word.

RH: Excellent!

Jim Katen · 07-13-2009, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

EVEN AFTER HE'S GONE, He'll have the last word.

Ha! Funny.

Except that I'm sure Jerry would insist that the stone cutter include the necessary apostrophes.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

**Ken Lyons** · 07-20-2009, 06:16 AM

Back to the original question.

If you wire or piping is like this: [METER] -> [DISCONNECT] --> [PANEL]
Then the Ground and Neutral should be bonded in the [DISCONNECT], as that is the first user device after the meter, aka Service Equipment, aka MAIN
If you are not sure and can't follow the wires, simply pull that disconnect, and if ANYTHING is on in the house or property, you know that it doesn't cut-off all power, thus is not the MAIN.

As far as the wires in the back.. if they are loose and not in a conduit or in a clamp designed for that many wires, then it's a write-up. [for diy] I'd use a flex conduit if possible.

Now a few newer houses are using 400 amp service, they have a larger drop to the meter. And two sets of wires feeding two 200 amp panels. Bonding would be in BOTH panels since each is independent of the other and both running a grounded wire to the grounded rod.