Thread: Panel bonding which is correct?

The house has one main panel and 2 sub panels. The main disconnect is located at the utility meter 320 feet away. I measured it. It is 35 feet further than this picture shows.
Should the neutral/ground bonding be at the meter or the main panel which does not have a main breaker. Why? Other than code says so.
Thanks
This one has been tough.

Similar Threads:

• CSST bonding
• Bonding question, yeah, I know...
• bonding wire
• Bonding
• Bonding of raceway

Paul-
The proper place for the bonding to take place is the main disconnect located at the utility meter. This is the main disconnecting means.
The neutral to ground bond should take place at the first disconnecting means whether it is a panel or just a disconnect ( fusible disconnect or enclosed circuit breaker).
NEC article 250.24 explains this , mainly 250.24 (A) (4)

In reality what you describe is a main service located at the utility meter and 3 subpanels located in the structure.
Anything after the first disconnecting means is a sub ( or remote from) of that first disconnect.
This means that the neutrals and grounds must be kept separate from each other at all 3 locations.

The reason to keep them separate is to prevent objectionable current from flowing on
normally non-current carrying metals parts of equipment.

Ok here goes - I'm going to dispel a common myth-
The myth: "Electricity is always seeking a way back to earth"

The truth is: Electricity is always seeking it's source.

The neutral conductor of a circuit is the path the electricity takes on its journey back to it's source.( Residential settings the source will be the utility companies transformer) Should you tie the neutral and ground together at one (or more) subpanels you will give the returning electricity an opportunity to flow on the ground wires in it's journey back to it's source.Thus normally non- carrying metal parts of electrical equipment can become energized.
For instance lets say your washing machine. It has become energized by the above.
You are loading your clothes in it. You lean on the machine as you reach to turn on the water valve, which is grounded. You can be shocked.
The amount of objectionable current will depend on the amount of electricity being used at the time.
I hope this helps and welcome anyone else to help clarify, as I am not the best at teaching over the internet.

Yes, the neutral is to be bonded to ground at the service disconnect, which is at the meter.

There needs to be 4 feeder conductors running to the first panel (no panel is a "subpanel" unless it is in a submarine, it is simply a panel, or, as Ken said, you could refer to it as a "remote" panel if that suits your taste better) and from the first panel, based on your description, that feeds the other panels, which would ALSO need 4 feeder conductors to those panels.

The 4 feeder conductors needed are: equipment grounding conductor, ungrounded neutral conductor, 2 phase hot conductors.

The reason for this is that if the neutral is tied to ground at the house panel as well as at the service equipment (the disconnect at the meter), then NEUTRAL AND grounding current would need to travel through earth to get back to the service equipment (the source Ken referred to) AND the neutral current would also go back through the neutral conductor. That would set up a condition in which the neutral current would be split (unequally) between the neutral conductor and earth, creating potential problems with the neutral circuit, including having GROUNDING current flowing back through the neutral conductor to the service equipment.

By installing the separate neutral and grounding conductors (required now) from the service equipment to the house, that problem is eliminated.

The best way to remember *where* the neutral is bonded to ground is to remember that the neutral is bonded to ground ONLY AT THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT, which in your case is the disconnect at the meter. Then to remember that the neutral IS NOT bonded to ground at any panel which is not "service equipment", i.e., ANY "panel", or "distribution panel", or "loadcenter", or, as noted previously, go with "remote" panel if you understand it better.

"Service equipment" = neutral bonded to ground. This could be a disconnect only as in your example, or there could be a panel which is part of the service equipment.

Not "service equipment" = neutral NOT bonded to ground. This would be ANY panel which is not part of the service equipment.

Electricity not only takes the least resistance path back to its source, electricity takes ALL AVAILABLE paths back to its source, which includes earth ground.

Ok here goes - I'm going to dispel a common myth-
The myth: "Electricity is always seeking a way back to earth"

KH: That's some heady stuff, what with your rewriting the history of physics and all. How is that working out for you?

Originally Posted by ken horak

Paul-
The proper place for the bonding to take place is the main disconnect located at the utility meter. This is the main disconnecting means.
The neutral to ground bond should take place at the first disconnecting means whether it is a panel or just a disconnect ( fusible disconnect or enclosed circuit breaker).
NEC article 250.24 explains this , mainly 250.24 (A) (4)

In reality what you describe is a main service located at the utility meter and 3 subpanels located in the structure.
Anything after the first disconnecting means is a sub ( or remote from) of that first disconnect.
This means that the neutrals and grounds must be kept separate from each other at all 3 locations.

The reason to keep them separate is to prevent objectionable current from flowing on
normally non-current carrying metals parts of equipment.

Ok here goes - I'm going to dispel a common myth-
The myth: "Electricity is always seeking a way back to earth"

The truth is: Electricity is always seeking it's source.

The neutral conductor of a circuit is the path the electricity takes on its journey back to it's source.( Residential settings the source will be the utility companies transformer) Should you tie the neutral and ground together at one (or more) subpanels you will give the returning electricity an opportunity to flow on the ground wires in it's journey back to it's source.Thus normally non- carrying metal parts of electrical equipment can become energized.
For instance lets say your washing machine. It has become energized by the above.
You are loading your clothes in it. You lean on the machine as you reach to turn on the water valve, which is grounded. You can be shocked.
The amount of objectionable current will depend on the amount of electricity being used at the time.
I hope this helps and welcome anyone else to help clarify, as I am not the best at teaching over the internet.

I think you did a damn good job. Some others may wish to "maybe" lightly alter it or add to it but it sounds like a good enough explanation to me.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Ok here goes - I'm going to dispel a common myth-
The myth: "Electricity is always seeking a way back to earth"

The truth is: Electricity is always seeking it's source.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

KH: That's some heady stuff, what with your rewriting the history of physics and all. How is that working out for you?

Aaron,

You left off the last part of what Ken said, which I included above.

Ken is ... drum roll ... CORRECT.

Take you car/truck as an example - there are four insulators insulating it from ground ... the electricity DOES NOT go back to ground, it goes back to its source, which happens to be the battery and the alternator, which is given a reference "ground" point by us humans, but it is not "earth ground".

Physics says just what Ken said: electricity will seek out a path to return to its source, that is what makes the complete circuit, and the only thing which makes a complete circuit.

The additional thing I was pointing out in my post above was that electricity not only takes the "path of least resistance" it takes "ALL paths" back to its source.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

You left off the last part of what Ken said, which I included above.

Ken is ... drum roll ... CORRECT.

Take you car/truck as an example - there are four insulators insulating it from ground ... the electricity DOES NOT go back to ground, it goes back to its source, which happens to be the battery and the alternator, which is given a reference "ground" point by us humans, but it is not "earth ground".

Physics says just what Ken said: electricity will seek out a path to return to its source, that is what makes the complete circuit, and the only thing which makes a complete circuit.

The additional thing I was pointing out in my post above was that electricity not only takes the "path of least resistance" it takes "ALL paths" back to its source.

JP: I am not disputing the validity of KH's second statement.

Thanks everyone. It is easier to understand. But just to make it difficult what would happen if you have the neutral was cut from the main disconnect and the washer becomes energized I know the ground should bleed the current off but since the neutral is what makes the circuit breaker work wouldn't you still be in danger?
Just trying to make sure I have it right.
Thanks Again
Paul

Paul,

There are three separate conditions to consider:

- a "short"
- - A "short" circuit is one in which the hot and neutral are touching, the hot is "shorted" out. I.e., the circuit is incomplete, the circuit has been 'shortened' to where the "short" is. Under this condition the breaker *should* trip (fuse *should* blow).

- a "ground fault"
- - A "ground fault" is where the hot has faulted to ground (instead of the neutral as in a "short"). In this case, the circuit is still complete, the equipment will still operate, however the case has been energized by the hot making it not safe to operate. In most cases there is not enough current through the fault to ground to cause (allow) enough current to flow to cause the breaker to trip or the fuse to blow. This is because there is still current flowing through the neutral conductor, and, in fact, most of the current is flowing through the neutral conductor.

The above two are the most common. The third is:
- open neutral
- - When the neutral is open, there is no current flow through the circuit and the equipment (talking about 120 volt equipment here) will cease to operate as there is no return path for the current to flow.

You are describing an "open neutral" condition in conjunction with a "ground fault".

Except that you are describing the open neutral as being on the feeders and not the branch circuit, which means that all 120 volt appliances will not longer have 120 volts on them, they will have varying voltage depending on the relative current on the relative loads on the phase conductors (the two hot conductors). Which means you could have 180 volts at the washer or 60 volts at the washer, or any voltage depending on the loads on the two phases.

The reason for the above is that the neutral serves as a relative point to reference the system to, which is not necessarily ground, and when that relative point is lost, the voltages can fluctuate wildly.

And no, it would not trip the breaker any more than a ground fault light fixture would trip the breaker. Under the right conditions, yes, the breaker will trip, but not under all conditions (with that open feeder neutral).

The only protection would be if that washer was located where its receptacle required GFCI protection.

You brought up a good example of why installing GFCI protection on every receptacle outlet is a "good thing".

Not sure how well I made the above understandable, but I will try to revise its wording as needed.

Getting back to your first post, though:

Originally Posted by Paul Johnston

The main disconnect is located at the utility meter 320 feet away. I measured it.

I would hope they sized the feeders up to account for voltage drop - that is 640 feet plus of conductor resistance/reactance to account for between the service equipment and the panel.

Thanks everyone. Now I think I have it. I will pratice with diagrams.
Jerry they did not super size at all. What concerns me is where they got the power for the remote panels because they are not tied in the main disconnect. It is a good thing most construction is masonry or they would need a lot of firemen.
Thanks
Again
Paul

Originally Posted by Paul Johnston

What concerns me is where they got the power for the remote panels because they are not tied in the main disconnect.

Then the other panels would be fed from the first panel.

You would then have:
- service equipment feeding the first panel
- - the first panel feeding the second panel
- - - the first panel feeding the third panel
- - - or
- - - the second panel feeding the third panel

All you guys make me feel STUPID......but thanks for all the great info, maybe if I keep reading I'll eventually be a well educated home inspector.

Clint

Originally Posted by Paul Johnston

The house has one main panel and 2 sub panels. The main disconnect is located at the utility meter 320 feet away. I measured it. It is 35 feet further than this picture shows.
Should the neutral/ground bonding be at the meter or the main panel which does not have a main breaker. Why? Other than code says so.
Thanks
This one has been tough.

i believe your main panel would require a disconnect or 6 throws maximum if i understand your description.

Brian,
He states the Main Disconnect is at the meter. That is all that is required.

Hi Jerry,

thought I drop in, "it takes "ALL paths" back to its source.

Did you mean, the paths of lease resistance is what current follows?

Not to many inspectors out here are as well verse in electricity as you
are. (not wanting to be to technical in response to your answer.)

Robert

Robert,

The common saying is that electricity "takes the path of least resistance" back to its source, which is mostly somewhat true.

The truth, though, is that electricity will "take all paths" back to its source.

Think of the neutral and ground circuits as parallel circuits with resistors in the. The path with the least resistance will carry the most current, the path with the most resistance will carry the least current.

Now to the electrical service panel where the neutral is bonded to the ground and the path back to the transformer is a nice, thick, fat, copper conductor - all the current will flow back through that conductor, right?

Nope. There is also a grounding electrode system at the service (may consist of two driven ground rods) and there is a a ground at the transformer, and there is a conductor between those two grounds - the earth path.

You now have a parallel circuit: one path with not much resistance - the nice, thick, fat, copper neutral conductor; and one path with a (comparatively speaking) relatively high resistance - earth, sometimes dry, sometimes wet, sometimes cold, sometimes hot, sometimes compacted, sometimes disturbed and loose, sometimes with rocks, sometimes with ... you get the idea, not an ideal conductor, but it is.

Thus, let's say the service is drawing 200 amps through one phase conductor and 100 amps through the other phase conductor. That means the difference of 100 amps is being drawn through the neutral conductor.

MOST of that 100 amps will return to the transformer through the neutral conductor, however ... some will return through earth, and how much depends on several things, not the least of which is the resistance in the neutral line, loose connections at terminals, nicked conductor, crushed conductor, many things can go wrong with the neutral conductor circuit.

The other thing to consider is the resistance of the earth path - which we know basically nothing about.

Let's say it has been dry for 2 months, the neutral has a bad connection but the resistance of the earth path is high enough to force almost all of the current through the neutral, now you have 2 weeks of rain, nice wet earth, its conductivity increases dramatically, however, the resistance of the neutral stays the same - the current flowing through earth back to the transformer will be much greater now with an equal reduction in the current in the neutral conductor.

Now let's suppose the neutral comes all the way loose, that 100 amps HAS TO (it has no choice) go through the earth ground to get back to the transformer, and that is going to upset the balance of the circuits and the current draw, as 100 amps through that resistance of earth is going to create a voltage across that earth between the house and the transformer, meaning the voltage will drop at the service, meaning the current will drop, until it all balances out. You could actually measure the voltage across that earth if you had long leads on your multimeter, using a digital meter will read higher than an analog meter would.

It would be prudent for the power companies to install a grounding conductor when the install the grounded conductor for all electrical services as it would do away with almost all stray voltages (because there would be that second lose resistance path back to the transformer). Keep in mind though that the neutral and ground are connected at the service and at the transformer, thus the grounding conductor would need to be sized the same as the neutral conductor as it would carry 1/2 the current under normal circumstances, and all the current when the neutral was open or had high resistance.

The picture leads one to believe this is a new house. Is it? Or, is the workgoing on an addition/remodel?

How many wires run from the disconnect on the pole to the panel?

My question stems from the fact that older code cycles (and this might play here depending on when a permit was pulled, if any) allowed running 3 wires from the pole disconnect. This makes a difference in how the neutral gets handled at the first house panel.

Bill,

I considered that too, but everything around it looks like new construction so I presumed it was new construction.

Also, if a remodel/addition and the extent exceeds substantially improved (which I recall as being 50% of the pre-improved value of the structure) the entire structure would need to be brought to current code anyway.

At least those were my thoughts.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Brian,
He states the Main Disconnect is at the meter. That is all that is required.

ken,
225.30,225.31,225.33, nec!

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

i believe your main panel would require a disconnect or 6 throws maximum if i understand your description.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Brian,
He states the Main Disconnect is at the meter. That is all that is required.

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

ken,
225.30,225.31,225.33, nec!

Brian,

Trying to follow you here, but you've lost me.

What is it you are trying to say with your posts and those code sections?

This is what he described:
- service equipment on the first structure (the post is a "structure") and there is a single main disconnect there
- feeder to main house (there are not other feeders present at the service disconnect so the presumption is that they feed the main house - regardless, though, they only feed *one* structure, so for this example the "main house" is used as that *one* structure) where there is a panel
- there are many breakers in that main house panel (many meaning "more than 6" for your post's concern)
- the "main house" has only one feeder on the load side of the service disconnect (okay per 225.30)
- there is a disconnecting means for all ungrounded conductors which supply or pass through the main house, the service disconnect (good per 225.31)
- there is a single disconnect for the service disconnect (okay per 225.33)
- the location of the disconnect is at the service equipment where the feeder original (okay per 225.32 which you did not even mention)

Now, though, with 225.32 we get into a discussion as to what (bold and underlining are mine) "The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure." means.

Does "outside" mean "immediately on the outside surface" of the structure? If so, then many, many, many installations in many, many, many areas of the country are incorrect.

Does "outside" mean "outside on a pole"? If so, how far away is that pole allowed?

Does the exceptions which state "elsewhere on the premises" mean the pole in the above? If so, go back to the many, many, many installation in many, many, many ares of the country are incorrect. And this installation is just like those, except many the distance is a little further.

Need clarification on what you are meaning.

jerry,
you are soo close to understanding what i am trying to say. op said house has a main panel and 2 sup panels with the service disconnect on a pole .the sections quoted say that each separate structure or building after the ist disco shall have a disconnect (1-6 throws)on or immediately inside that other building or structure.the sub panels in the seperate building do not need a disco because they are controlled by the main panel on the outside of that same building that feeds them that has a diconnect.if the service disco on the pole was to also feed a garage and a guest house they too would require a disconnect on or immediately inside that building and each building would also require grounding electrode systems and bonding as usual.that is how we enforce the code in this part of the world

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
you are soo close to understanding what i am trying to say.

Brian,

I believe I understand what you are saying, I am trying to point out why it is incorrect.

op said house has a main panel and 2 sup panels with the service disconnect on a pole .

Yes he did, but we all know that he really only had *3* "panels" with "service equipment" on a pole.

the sections quoted say that each separate structure or building after the ist disco shall have a disconnect (1-6 throws)on or immediately inside that other building or structure.

Actually, I pointed out to you that *is not* what it says.

Show me where it says that.

the sub panels in the seperate building do not need a disco because they are controlled by the main panel on the outside of that same building that feeds them that has a diconnect.

You keep using the term "building", the code uses the term "structure", I believe that is where you are going wrong.

if the service disco on the pole was to also feed a garage and a guest house they too would require a disconnect on or immediately inside that building

Please quote that code section which states that.

and each building would also require grounding electrode systems and bonding as usual.

You mean "as usual" for a "panel"? Yes.

Each STRUCTURE would require a GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM.

Each STRUCTURE would require the neutral to be isolated from ground.

that is how we enforce the code in this part of the world

Then you need to learn how the developed countries of the world enforce codes, Third World countries typically do not even use codes.

jerry,
225.30,"more than one BUILDING or structure".225.31 disconnecting means.never mind your right i'm wrong.you enforce the code however you want and it will be right. all the code enforcement people i know should only hope to be as knowledgeable as you some day when they grow up.

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
225.30,"more than one BUILDING or structure".225.31 disconnecting means.never mind your right i'm wrong.you enforce the code however you want and it will be right. all the code enforcement people i know should only hope to be as knowledgeable as you some day when they grow up.

Brian,

You keep going to BUILDING, you need to go to STRUCTURE.

THAT POLE *IS* a "structure".

Maybe you will learn something after all.

"Re: Ranel bonding which is correct"

Thanks Jerry for sharing with the rest of use the reality of the real
world when its comes to a house electrical system, in the United States.

Questions: do you know of any country that uses a different system.
Say a two wire, but at a higher voltage?


Robert

Brian-
225.30 - The number of Supplies ? The disconnect on the pole is the service disconnecting means . The wiring going from the disconnect to the house is a Feeder .
The code article 225.30 states that MORE then 1 structure on the property be supplied by a single branch circuit or a FEEDER on the load side of the service disconnecting means. (Which this property is)
That and in the original post it was stated " THE HOUSE has 1 main panel and 2 subpanels" I take that as 1 structure not more then one. I think if it was more then one structure it would have stated so.


225.31 only say that you need a disconnecting means to disconnect All ungrounded conductors. The disconnect on the pole has this covered as it disconnects the ungrounded conductors

225.33 Maximum number of disconnects - The disconnecting means at the pole is the ONE and only - as by shutting off the disconnect you are shutting off everything downstream.

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

Questions: do you know of any country that uses a different system.
Say a two wire, but at a higher voltage?

Most of Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and 1/2 of South America use 220-240 volts, 50 Hz.

Hi Jerry

So some country use a two wire servie without a share netural, am I
correct in saying this?

If this is true wasn't doesn't the USA do the same, is this type more
reliable and safer than our?

No so sure about the 50 Hz.

Robert

Robert,

As I understand it ... Europe started out with 110 volts and refused 60 cycles as it did not fit the metric systems divisions or 5 and 10, so they went with 50 cycles (known as Hz).

50 Hz is less efficient than 60 Hz and produces less power, so they went to 220 volts before electric appliances spread much across Europe as that provided greater power. Don't ask me how they justified the 220 volts as it was not a fit for the metric system as it is not a fact of 5 or 10, but, 220 volts it was.

In the US, we started with 60 Hz and 110 volts, and then added two 110 volt legs with the common neutral to give that same 240 volts when needed for the additional power.

The 110 volts became 120 volts and 220 volts became 240 volts.

Thus Europe has single phase 240 volts across the two circuit conductors; the US has single phase 120 volts across the two circuit conductors or 240 volts on 240 volt circuits - with the common neutral as the grounded center point of the 240 volts to make the 120 volts each leg to ground.

Also, with transmission over long distances from different power sources the different sources could be at different points on the cycle, so (this is from something I read a very long time ago) when the eastern distribution system was to be connected to the western distribution system to make a country wide US electrical grid, they went from each distribution system to dc, the dc connected with each other, then the dc was inverted back to ac in correct phase with the distribution system. Don't know it was/is true or not, something I read/heard/was told many decades ago. Maybe was once and not any longer?

Not sure if I answered your question as I was not sure what your question was?

Try entering "Utility Frequency" at Wikipedia for info on line frequency and voltage.

One of the considerations for the European wiring system not brought up in the article is that a lot of rebuilding happened after WW II, and the single, higher voltage design used considerably less material than ours does.

[quote=ken horak;92191]Brian-


225.31 only say that you need a disconnecting means to disconnect All ungrounded conductors. The disconnect on the pole has this covered as it disconnects the ungrounded conductors

ken,
article 225 is specific to feeders so in reading 225.32 "location" a reasonably intelligent person can come to the conclusion that the feeder to the seperate building or structure will require a disconnecting means installed either inside or outside the buiding or structure at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. this is not space shuttle stuff guys. jerry cut and paste away

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

article 225 is specific to feeders so in reading 225.32 "location" a reasonably intelligent person can come to the conclusion that the feeder to the seperate building or structure will require a disconnecting means installed either inside or outside the buiding or structure at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. this is not space shuttle stuff guys. jerry cut and paste away

Brian,

How many times do Ken and I have to repeat this for you: That main service disconnect IS "outside the building or structure" ... just like the code says.

Which is why, if you go back up a few posts, you will find where I said:

Now, though, with 225.32 we get into a discussion as to what (bold and underlining are mine) "The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure." means.

Does "outside" mean "immediately on the outside surface" of the structure? If so, then many, many, many installations in many, many, many areas of the country are incorrect.

Does "outside" mean "outside on a pole"? If so, how far away is that pole allowed?

Does the exceptions which state "elsewhere on the premises" mean the pole in the above? If so, go back to the many, many, many installation in many, many, many ares of the country are incorrect. And this installation is just like those, except many the distance is a little further.

Need clarification on what you are meaning.

jerry,
the main service disconnect is indeed outside the building! it's 320 feet away on a friggin structure referred to as a pole.kapische? the feeder disconnect required by sections 225.31 and 225.32 to the seperate building is where jerry? i can only lead my horses to the water after that they're on there own it can be heil teaching old dogs new tricks!

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
the main service disconnect is indeed outside the building! it's 320 feet away on a friggin structure referred to as a pole.kapische? the feeder disconnect required by sections 225.31 and 225.32 to the seperate building is where jerry? i can only lead my horses to the water after that they're on there own it can be heil teaching old dogs new tricks!

Fro crying out loud, Brian, can't the young puppy quit peeing on the porch?

jerry,
you are truly graceful and eloquent in defeat. it must come with age? thank you yoda

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
you are truly graceful and eloquent in defeat. it must come with age? thank you yoda

Brian,

I did not say you were correct, only that you young puppies need to quit peeing all over the porch.

See, *I* *used to* hold the same opinion as you do now, but over the years it was explained that I had the wrong opinion. I've never liked it the way they keep saying it, and I can defend it both ways with code sections, however, as Ken said, the disconnect can be at the pole.

Unless someone convinces me that I was correct all those years and am now incorrect, which would also make Ken incorrect, and would make you correct.

*I* try to keep learning and adapting when I learn more things, sometimes the old way proves correct over time.

jerry,
you used to hold the correct opinion and was led astray by some convincing boobs come back jerry the masses need you to be correct again. make peace with the code as interpreted by the truly wise practioners of the code.

Brian,

You know all those posts here where the service equipment in on a pedestal 1-10 feet or so out in the yard from the house, all those you let go without mentioning them as being wrong?

Yeah, ALL those ...

Are they right or wrong.

jerry,
they are wrong! the service on a pole thing is most common to mobile homes which require a disconnect on or immediately inside the home in addition to the main service disconnect. i am having a difficult time accepting the fact that you can't accept the fact that your facts are wrong!

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

they are wrong!

Yet you never said they were ... why? Did you just think of it?

i am having a difficult time accepting the fact that you can't accept the fact that your facts are wrong!

I know you are having difficulty understanding ... what is correct.

The facts are that this is one of the areas in which the NEC is not clear, and an argument can be made for both interpretations, good arguments for both interpretations.

Here is an example, you tell me if it is correct or not:

The service equipment is located on a pole/pedestal as described, the feeders go to the house and there is a disconnect on the exterior of the house, then a conduit runs down the outside the wall, under the slab in 30 feet, then up to a panel in the hall where there are 42 circuits.

Is that correct or not?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yet you never said they were ... why? Did you just think of it?



I know you JERRY PECK are having difficulty understanding ... what is correct.

Here is an example, you tell me if it is correct or not:

The service equipment is located on a pole/pedestal as described, the feeders go to the house and there is a disconnect on the exterior of the house, then a conduit runs down the outside the wall, under the slab in 30 feet, then up to a panel in the hall where there are 42 circuits.

Is that correct or not?

The disco on the exterior of the house is right. no requirement for a disco for the sub panel with 42 circuits. it is within the same building so no disco required. like an apartment house with 10 meters and disconnects in a grouped location. all the apts have 42 circuit sub panels in the units with no main disconnect.not a problem.

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

The disco on the exterior of the house is right. no requirement for a disco for the sub panel with 42 circuits. it is within the same building so no disco required. like an apartment house with 10 meters and disconnects in a grouped location. all the apts have 42 circuit sub panels in the units with no main disconnect.not a problem.

Wrong!

But I knew you would say that was correct.

The code requirement which would support you on your position that it is NOT ALLOWED on the pole and IS REQUIRED on the structure is the same code requirement which would NOT ALLOW the set up I described above.

Try again.

See if you can point to the code section which is applicable and to the wording in that code section which is specifically applicable.

i'm done trying to educate the hard headed a few words of wisdom to you sir, when you come to the fork in the road,take it!

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

i'm done trying to educate the hard headed a few words of wisdom to you sir, when you come to the fork in the road,take it!

Let me get this straight, Brian ... you are trying to convince the world YOU are correct and yet YOU have no documentation to back up your convictions?

Certainly does not say much about you other than your position is based on "Brian says so, so it must be so, and if you disagree then you are hardheaded."

Come on Brian, you are standing on your convictions here that you are correct, throughout all the above posts, so give us something to believe in - support your argument that you are right.

Either that or we can just write you off as one who offers no supporting documentation and believes it is "Brian's way or no way." - Jeez.

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

ken,
225.30,225.31,225.33, nec!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Brian,

Trying to follow you here, but you've lost me.

What is it you are trying to say with your posts and those code sections?

This is what he described:
- service equipment on the first structure (the post is a "structure") and there is a single main disconnect there
- feeder to main house (there are not other feeders present at the service disconnect so the presumption is that they feed the main house - regardless, though, they only feed *one* structure, so for this example the "main house" is used as that *one* structure) where there is a panel
- there are many breakers in that main house panel (many meaning "more than 6" for your post's concern)
- the "main house" has only one feeder on the load side of the service disconnect (okay per 225.30)
- there is a disconnecting means for all ungrounded conductors which supply or pass through the main house, the service disconnect (good per 225.31)
- there is a single disconnect for the service disconnect (okay per 225.33)
- the location of the disconnect is at the service equipment where the feeder original (okay per 225.32 which you did not even mention)

Now, though, with 225.32 we get into a discussion as to what (bold and underlining are mine) "The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure." means.

Does "outside" mean "immediately on the outside surface" of the structure? If so, then many, many, many installations in many, many, many areas of the country are incorrect.

Does "outside" mean "outside on a pole"? If so, how far away is that pole allowed?

Does the exceptions which state "elsewhere on the premises" mean the pole in the above? If so, go back to the many, many, many installation in many, many, many ares of the country are incorrect. And this installation is just like those, except many the distance is a little further.

Need clarification on what you are meaning.

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
225.30,"more than one BUILDING or structure".225.31 disconnecting means.never mind your right i'm wrong.you enforce the code however you want and it will be right. all the code enforcement people i know should only hope to be as knowledgeable as you some day when they grow up.

[quote=brian schmitt;92402]

Originally Posted by ken horak

Brian-


225.31 only say that you need a disconnecting means to disconnect All ungrounded conductors. The disconnect on the pole has this covered as it disconnects the ungrounded conductors

ken,
article 225 is specific to feeders so in reading 225.32 "location" a reasonably intelligent person can come to the conclusion that the feeder to the seperate building or structure will require a disconnecting means installed either inside or outside the buiding or structure at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. this is not space shuttle stuff guys. jerry cut and paste away

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

jerry,
the main service disconnect is indeed outside the building! it's 320 feet away on a friggin structure referred to as a pole.kapische? the feeder disconnect required by sections 225.31 and 225.32 to the seperate building is where jerry? i can only lead my horses to the water after that they're on there own it can be heil teaching old dogs new tricks!

james stallcups 1999 code changes has some excellent illustrations of my point but don't read it jerry it would only prove you wrong and we know how jerry hates to be wrong

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

ken,
225.30,225.31,225.33, nec!

From the 2008 NEC - YOUR code sections, I added in the one which really applies and you missed 225.32 LOCATION. (underlining and bold are mine)
- II. More Than One Building or Other Structure
- - 225.30 Number of Supplies.
- - - Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
- - - - (A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply the following:
- - - - - (1) Fire pumps
- - - - - (2) Emergency systems
- - - - - (3) Legally required standby systems
- - - - - (4) Optional standby systems
- - - - - (5) Parallel power production systems
- - - - - (6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
- - - - (B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either of the following:
- - - - - (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants
- - - - - (2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to make two or more supplies necessary
- - - - (C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000 amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less.
- - - - (D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.
- - - - (E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply installations under single management where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.
- - 225.31 Disconnecting Means.
- - - Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.
- - 225.32 Location. (Jerry's note: THIS section specifies THE LOCATION of the required disconnecting means.)
- - - The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized. (Jerry's note: 230.6 is included in this post below.)
- - - - Exception No. 1: For installations under single management, where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection, and where the installation is monitored by qualified individuals, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
- - - - Exception No. 2: For buildings or other structures qualifying under the provisions of Article 685, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
- - - - Exception No. 3: For towers or poles used as lighting standards, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
- - - - Exception No. 4: For poles or similar structures used only for support of signs installed in accordance with Article 600, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
- - 225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
- - - (A) General. The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.
- - - - Exception: For the purposes of this section, disconnecting means used solely for the control circuit of the ground-fault protection system, or the control circuit of the power-operated supply disconnecting means, installed as part of the listed equipment, shall not be considered a supply disconnecting means.
- - - (B) Single-Pole Units. Two or three single-pole switches or breakers capable of individual operation shall be permitted on multiwire circuits, one pole for each ungrounded conductor, as one multipole disconnect, provided they are equipped with identified handle ties or a master handle to disconnect all ungrounded conductors with no more than six operations of the hand.

- - 230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building.
- - - Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions:
- - - - (1) Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete beneath a building or other structure
- - - - (2) Where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 50 mm (2 in.) thick
- - - - (3) Where installed in any vault that meets the construction requirements of Article 450, Part III
- - - - (4) Where installed in conduit and under not less than 450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other structure

Brian,

Now back to my example ...

WHERE do the conductors enter the building or structure, where is "the point of entrance" of those conductors?

WHERE is the disconnecting means required to be in relation to "the point of entrance" of those conductors?

YOU tell me where the disconnecting means is required/allowed to be for the example I gave.

nice try!conductors considered outside a building is na to required disconnect which is the basis of this exchange. the conductors still need their disconnect at the seperate building but the location of that disconnect on or within that seperate building can be changed per 230.6.you can do better than this jp. think critical,shake out the cobwebs and present a legitimate arguement

Originally Posted by brian schmitt

conductors considered outside a building is na to required disconnect which is the basis of this exchange.

To the contrary, that is why that section SPECIFICALLY references THAT VERY SECTION - to MAKE SURE THE READER (if you are reading it and not just making it up) is aware that conductors outside the building, and by that definition, is precisely included and applicable.

Brian, while you ARE selectively reading the code, you ARE NOT ALLOWED to selectively read the code when applying the proper and correct code sections.

The entire code section is applicable, including the superficially referenced code sections from elsewhere in the code.

THE CODE says the disconnect is to be located closest to the point of entrance, which would be in the hall in my example.

YOU said it was okay to have the disconnect 30 feet away in my example.

Which gets us back to what I asked at the very beginning of our exchanges:

Now, though, with 225.32 we get into a discussion as to what (bold and underlining are mine) "The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure." means.

Does "outside" mean "immediately on the outside surface" of the structure? If so, then many, many, many installations in many, many, many areas of the country are incorrect.

Does "outside" mean "outside on a pole"? If so, how far away is that pole allowed?

Does the exceptions which state "elsewhere on the premises" mean the pole in the above? If so, go back to the many, many, many installation in many, many, many ares of the country are incorrect. And this installation is just like those, except many the distance is a little further.

Does "outside the building or structure served" mean *ON THE OUTSIDE* of the building or structure served or dose it mean *OUTSIDE* the building or structure served as it says?

It has been interpreted to mean WHAT IT SAYS: "outside" the building or structure served.

Paul Johnston your thread dated: 07/12/2009

Does Costa Rica have any electrical code? There two out there. Here
in the U.S.A. we use the N.E.C. and what ever local code the locals can
think of

Do they have electrical inspectors, building inspectors?

Your thread ask, "should the neutral/ground bond be at the meter or at
the panel, which does not have a main breaker.

The neutral/ground should be bonded, where the panel is use as the Main
Electrical Service Disconnect. Big problem is your is out at the utility meter 320 feet away. The other panel is what I call a, "Main Lug Only",
electrical panel box. If your head is spinning stop reading now!!

The "Main Lug Only" should have four conductor cable coming into it.
But in Costa Rica who knows??. It might have only three conductors
coming into it.

Now there more to this... but I don't want your head to explode.

But you lost me on neutral/ground bonding, but are talking about the
the grounding conductor being bonded to the panel?

Because the neutral/ground mean the same thing.

If your panel was a Main Lug Only, type, then the electrician would
had install extra ground bars. And the grounding conductor, usually bare
copper or cover with green insulation would only attach to these extra
bars, which I call grounding bars.

The grounding bar cannot be electrical connected to the ground/neutal.
It has its own conductor that feed back to the Service Disconnect on
the Power Pole. But if you have only three wires. then the grounding
bar should attach to a ground rod grounding conductor, which located
outside and driven into the earth with the ground rod ground conductor
attach to it.

Personal I wouldn't okay three conductors, no way.

Change over, so the service disconnect is inside the house, no big deal, any good electrician should be any to do that.

As for the breaker on the pole, it would become a switch with built in
over load protection. Would I want this, hell no, have the power com-
pany remove it. If not, put a lock on the breaker enclosure.

Thanks Robert,
No there are no electrical or building inspectors. Its a lot like the wild wild west.
You are referring to the grounded neutral when speaking about the ground/neutral correct?
Here they use any color they can find and when there is a problem and there are many you can not trace anything out by color. The main method of wiring is twist and tape.
It is a nightmare so I just try and make people aware of what they are buying.
Thanks Again
Paul

Paul, the wild west,

"Your are referring to the grounded neutral when speaking about the ground/neutral correct?" Actually that like a play on words, the neutral as a
word means the same as the word ground. I used both words together
because when you start at the transformer, which center tap, that is the
neutral neither positive nor negative. Example: this is also called the zero
reference point. Voltage to neutral; 120 - and voltage to neutral; 120 +
The sum of these two voltages add up to 240 volts. This how power
company can supply a house with 120 volts and 240 volts.

240 volts comes from using two breakers connect to the electrical panel.
Two circuit wires are used here, with each individual connected to a single
circuit breaker. (two wires, two breakers, 240 volts)
Appliances like Hot Water Heater like to be wire to 240 volts.

120 volts comes from using one breaker connected to the electrical panel.
Two circuit wires are used here, only one of the two, is attach to a circuit
breaker and the other wire, usually insulated white, attach to the netural.
We or I call it ground because here the power company want yout to ground the neutral. Once you ground the neutral, its name changes. Its
now call the Ground. That why I alway refer to it as the neutral/ground.

Your table and ceiling lights like to be wired to 120 volts.

So one circuit breaker one wire, color black,red, blue, not white or green
gives you a electrical circuit of 120 volts, this is assuming that the other
wire connects to the neutral/ground.

Two circuit breaker with their handle tie together, or in SD breaker just
on handle, means your looking at a 240 volt circuit. That refering to
living in the U.S.A. Bottom line is what is the voltage the local Power
Company supply to house, where you are. Ask the Power Company for
a spec. sheet or have then write it down on paper.

Why do we ground the at the Service Panel with the Main Electrical Break-
er...short answer the "NATIONAL ELECTRIAL CODE also call NEC tell us to.
For electrical safety, lighting protection, and the list goes on and on and
on..

I would look for an electrician who from the U.S. living down there.

You could also start your own electrical businsess and hire electricians
from the U.S.

I wish you much success in you business there.

Also buy to copies of the NEC Handbook, that the hardback edition.

One edition printed in english and other printed in spanish. Assume they
speak spanish there.

This is book you should have if you are going to get better with electrical
inspection as part of your H.I. business. The pictures inside this book
are what sells this book.

Hey Paul I was just curious was there a significant voltage drop at home outlets?

James V., voltage drop, what voltage drop, service coming in should start at 350 kcmil. if buried, flying thru the air #2.

Electrician will properly size the entrance cable correctly, then the power
company will come along, and use the smallest cable thay have on the
truck. Reason, air cool conductors, read the charts, in the NEC book.

But James you did ask a good question, how about not more than 3% at the Service Panel and not more than 5% at the outlet furthest from the Service Panel.

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

But James you did ask a good question, how about not more than 3% at the Service Panel and not more than 5% at the outlet furthest from the Service Panel.

Incorrectly stated: (underlining and bold are mine)
FPN No. 4: Conductors for branch circuits as defined in Article 100, sized to prevent a voltage drop exceeding 3 percent at the farthest outlet of power, heating, and lighting loads, or combinations of such loads, and where the maximum total voltage drop on both feeders and branch circuits to the farthest outlet does not exceed 5 percent, provide reasonable efficiency of operation. See FPN No. 2 of 215.2(A)(3) for voltage drop on feeder conductors.

The 3% is from the panel to the furthest outlet for the branch circuits.

The 5% is including the feeders too.

If you are working with a panel which is the service equipment, then the 5% applies from the service equipment panel to the furthest outlet.

If you are working with a panel fed from the service equipment then the 3% applies from the panel to the furthest outlet and the 2% applies to the feeders for that panel.

The way to check that would be to check voltage drop *at the service equipment* which gives the base voltage drop for the service entrance, over service conductor/service laterals (I'll call this VD1), THEN check the voltage drop at the panel fed by the feeders (I'll call this VD2), THEN check the voltage drop at the furthest outlet (I'll call this VD3).

Then:

VD3 - VD1 = voltage drop of feeders and to the furthest outlet and must be less than 5%

VD2 - VD1 = voltage drop of the feeders and must be less than 2%

VD3 - VD2 = voltage drop of the branch circuits and must be less than 3% (added this line with edit)

VD1 is not addressed in the code, this just is the reference point needed to calculate the other two voltage drops.

Thanks Jerry, who did a great job correcting my error.

You wrote it out well, so anyone could understand it.

By why, temp. in my area my hit 90 degree tomorow.

Originally Posted by James Vincent

Hey Paul I was just curious was there a significant voltage drop at home outlets?

There was no voltage drop at all.

Originally Posted by Paul Johnston

There was no voltage drop at all.

Paul,

Measured with a SureTest or with what?

I made up a true voltage drop test set-up which clearly and plainly shows the voltage drop to non-believers.

Paul J. correct me if I am wrong, and after all that said before in the previous well written posts,
I want some facts: Isn't Electricity in Costa Rica inside a house only 120
volt altenating 60 cycles per second. Aren't the outlet generally a type
with only two flat blades plugs, that two prong or three if a ground is
avaible. I am also to understand the 60 cycle is not to accurate.

So everything said doesn't seen to applied here.

The Meter on the pole, the Service Disconnect is there, would there be a conduit running underground?
Are the two wires to the house Service copper, and the Service Disconnect ampere rating is what?

So is this house Service a 120 V single phase, 2-wire?

Should be it grounded, here in the U.S.A. one leg would be.

But then I don't know if the power company would ground at the transformer. And without the third prong is really necessary?

But in Costa Rica any one can wire, and what the hell. Why brother to
ground the Service at all.

Let the comment begain. ALL ARE WELCOME!!

Paul thanks for this thread.

Jerry please send us the plans to your home made voltage drop test
instrument.




NOW WHERE DID THE KIDS HIDE MY TRAIN SET.

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

Jerry please send us the plans to your home made voltage drop test instrument.

Robert,

See attached photos.

The NM cable plugs into a receptacle.

There is a loop sticking out which my clamp-on ammeter clamps around to read the current, see it protruding from the side of the box where the NM cable clamp is?

There is a 750 watt / 1400 watt heat gun (the red one).

There is an adjustable watt heat gun (the black one).

Between the two heat guns I can set the current draw to be about anywhere I want the current draw to be.

The SureTest plugs into the receptacles along with the heat guns and is to measure the voltage.

Procedure:

Step One: Plug NM cable with plug in, read voltage, read current (should be none or virtually none), write voltage down (say it is 123.2 volts).

Step Two: Turn on red heat gun, try 750 watt setting first, watch current rise and voltage drop.

Step Three: Turn on black heat gun and adjust wattage up to reach the current draw desired, if more current is needed, turn black heat gun to lowest setting, turn red heat gun to 1400 watts, then turn black heat gun up to desired current draw, read voltage and write it down (say it is 116.3 volts).

Step Four: Use calculator (in bag, forgot to remove it and lay it there for the photo) and divide lower voltage reading (116.3 volts) by higher voltage reading (123.2 volts) = 0.9444 (116.3 is 94.44% or 123.2) and store into M+. Now enter 1 and - MR = 0.056 (5.6%).

Also not shown in photo is cord cap receptacle with 3' NM cable with stripped ends which can be connected to a breaker to measure VD1 and VD2 in my post above.

I mounted the box to a piece of wood so I could prop the red heat gun up on it and only have to hold the black heat gun while I was adjusting it for my desired current draw.

And, no, it is not UL listed test equipment, it is JP listed test equipment. (My UL - Uncle Lew - died a number of years ago.)

For any builders, electricians, etc., who do not believe the "voltage" "drops" they can stand there and actually watch the voltage drop as I turn up the amp draw.

The highest voltage drop I've measured using this was (as I recall) around 21%.

And, yes, the SureTest voltage drop test is close, it is not as precise though as my voltage drop test set-up does something the SureTest cannot do - draw full current for a long time and heat up connections. The first SureTest only used 2 half cycles, then they went to using 8 half cycles so they could get some heating effect, not sure what the technical test is now, but it is not full current draw for minutes as I can do. Yet, the SureTest has proven to be "close", which is good enough for most cases. However, if you go to court, one can attempt to dispute the SureTest and its analytical calculations, etc., one cannot dispute real, live, you-can-watch-it-happen voltage drop as with my set-up.

One key to the puzzle is to ask 'where are / is the first overcurrent protection?'

The 'first disconnecting means' is only part of what determins if a panel is a 'main' or a 'sub.' For example, even 'back east' where a home will often have a meter/main disconnect on the outside of the house, with a panel on the inside face of the same wall, the neutrals and grounds are often bonded at that panel, with only three wires (no ground) going to that disconnect.

On newer meter/main units, that 'main' is actually a breaker, and the thing is constructed in such a manner that the neutral and ground are bonded - you have no choice in the matter - so that would be the place to start separating the two.

It was for situations like yours that the NEC, prior to the 2008 edition, allowed the neutral and ground to be separated at either location - at the service drop OR at the house panel. That was then. The 2008 edition made clear that the separation should be (in your case) at the meter/main (assuming a fuse or breaker there).

Not that there was anything inherently dangerous in your situation. Oddly enough, the argument always seemed to start when a detached garage was fed from that service, and someone wanted to treat the separate building as a separate service. The short version of the 2008 changes is 'same meter = same service.'

For your situation, I would not be concerned is the bond is at either end, especially if PVC conduit is used. If metal conduit is used, there ought to also have been 'bonding bushings' used to ensure the bonding of the conduit.

Originally Posted by John Steinke

One key to the puzzle is to ask 'where are / is the first overcurrent protection?'

The service equipment is where the first main service disconnecting mean is.

The service equipment overcurrent means is required to be integral with the disconnecting means "or immediately adjacent thereto", which does not mean the disconnect is allowed to be "outside" and the overcurrent protection is "inside" the house.

Take the old knife switches, the overcurrent protection was an integral part thereof.

Same with circuit breakers.

If you had an old knife switch with no integral overcurrent protection, then the overcurrent protection was required to be installed "immediately adjacent there to", i.e., right next to it with a closed nipple connecting the two.

Hope we didn't scare away, Paul Johnston.

Please come back, will play nice.

Hey Robert M. We hit our 53rd day over one hundred degrees this year today. Having pool installed next week I think about the slopes at Killington

The great state of Texas. Vermont sent its National Guard to train there.
1/3 return, the rest stay behind due to heat stroke.

With all the rain where having in the great state of Vermont. Or as I call
it the know-it-all State. I am just sent for Noah plans on how to build you
own Ark.


I know it hot, but its a dry heat, no that Arizona.