Thread: Square D Poster Child

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but....."I'm back in the saddle a-ge-hen........":

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Ummmmm...
What does Square D have to do with Zinsco?

Thats not Square D thats Zinsco or an old Sylvania panel and Breakers. Square D did make the old XO line that looked a little (very little) like that. Similar principle of buss connection.
Zinsco was not one of the Top lines

Thats not Square D thats Zinsco or an old Sylvania panel and Breakers.

Uhhhhhh--- If I recall correctly, the original pictures were not Zinnsco. Those pictures have been changed since the initial post.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Uhhhhhh--- If I recall correctly, the original pictures were not Zinnsco. Those pictures have been changed since the initial post.

That's odd. It appears that I replied to the original post a scant 6 minutes after it was posted. What I saw were Zinsco (or possibly essentially identical but later vintage Sylvania) breakers. So if the original photos were changed, it would have been done very quickly!

Maybe he meant poster child for REPLACEMENT with a Sq D....

The alternative title for the thread was "We Install Square D", which is magnetic signage on the back of my van. Mike got what I was implying with the title. The title I chose was ambiguous at best; sorry for the confusion. I haven't changed or edited the post, so I'm not sure what Brandon is referring to.

Due to scheduling conflicts with the tenants, it took 3 different trips to 2 adjacently located commercial properties with attached apartments (one sale/ one inspection fee) to complete the inspection. 9 of 13 service panels were Zinsco. 234 on 789 was the first thread I started regarding this inspection. If anyone ever needs conclusive evidence as to why we must call out Zinsco, my partner and I took a wealth of photos, which are on my external hard drive (the best of which I shared, the rest of which, I'll gladly share). Which brings up an important point: photos from my camera are easily uploaded to this sight, however the photos from my partner's camera will not upload. This resulted in my having to convert them to a PDF so I can share them. Clicking on the attachment, saving it to your computer, (YAWN) and then viewing the attachment is cumbersome, at best. I recall that Billy Stephens recommended an image resizer on a previous post, but I can't find the post. Is there an easier way to upload oversized images at the time of posting?

Interesting note regarding 234 on 789: My partner and I received a text message earlier in the day about the numeric mesmery occuring at 12 hours, 34 minutes, 56 seconds, on 07/08/09 (123456789). Later in the day, when my partner called me with the temperature readings of the Zinsco breaker (which ranged between 209 and 257 degrees), I knew I had a post to share with you twisted geniuses. I banged my nut squeezing through a crawlspace beneath the store front, and clicked 2 cameras approximately 30 times to get the 234 degree reading. I must confess, it was a premeditated post that took an inordinate amount of time to compile, but I love each and every one of you poor bastards.

Upon reflection: my bad. This whole post should have simply been a reply to a previous post: 234 on 789. Yet another lesson learned: Don't drink and jive.

And by poor bastards, I'm simply implying that home inspection/ property analysis is typically a thankless profession. No offense intended.

so I'm not sure what Brandon is referring to.

In that case, I must be going nuts. I must have been thinking about some other picture somewhere. Sorry for the confusion.

Here's a good looking Square D panel from a couple of days ago. Apparently installed in 1985. The doorbell tranny is waiting to go in.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Here's a good looking Square D panel from a couple of days ago. Apparently installed in 1985.

John,

You didn't put a smiley after that part, but I am sure you meant your smiley for that too, right?

The only thing wrong with that panel is that it needs to be rotated 90 degrees so it is vertical ...

I say "the only thing wrong" is because in order to rotate that 90 degrees to vertical means that ALL wiring will need to be removed from the panel, meaning the installer is starting out with a fresh palette on which to paint their own picture of how to do it right ... or wrong.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

John,

You didn't put a smiley after that part, but I am sure you meant your smiley for that too, right?

The only thing wrong with that panel is that it needs to be rotated 90 degrees so it is vertical ...

I say "the only thing wrong" is because in order to rotate that 90 degrees to vertical means that ALL wiring will need to be removed from the panel, meaning the installer is starting out with a fresh palette on which to paint their own picture of how to do it right ... or wrong.

Thanks Jerry. I found no signif faults there, just thought it was a good looking deadfront, all twist-outs intact. The rodents thought so too.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

I found no signif faults there,

Other than it being installed sideways which is wrong.

just thought it was a good looking deadfront, all twist-outs intact.

Not understanding you there ... might just be my reading of what you wrote, but ...

... how can "all twist-outs be intact" when there are breakers installed?

Or did you mean all twist-outs not where breakers were installed were intact?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Other than it being installed sideways which is wrong.



Not understanding you there ... might just be my reading of what you wrote, but ...

... how can "all twist-outs be intact" when there are breakers installed?

Or did you mean all twist-outs not where breakers were installed were intact?

The deadfront has been sitting there for 24 years, it was never installed, all twist-outs intact. Screws are lost, no doubt.

I do not call a sideways panel a repair item, it is "unconventional", maybe. In this case the main disconnect is correct, so where's the danger?.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

I do not call a sideways panel a repair item, it is "unconventional", maybe. In this case the main disconnect is correct, so where's the danger?.

ALL the breakers which on 'ON' in the down position, and all the future breakers which could be installed in those open breaker spaces.

You ABSOLUTELY SHOULD write it up, and if you did not, I would issue an addendum with that on there.

I know you are in Canada, but here in The States that has been a requirement for decades.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

ALL the breakers which on 'ON' in the down position, and all the future breakers which could be installed in those open breaker spaces.

You ABSOLUTELY SHOULD write it up, and if you did not, I would issue an addendum with that on there.

I know you are in Canada, but here in The States that has been a requirement for decades.

Sorry, I do not see that as a danger. We see light switches in that config all the time, so sometimes 'on is down'. Even little kids know this.
I'll get back to you on the local regs, but an authority ok'd this install in 1985.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Sorry, I do not see that as a danger. We see light switches in that config all the time, so sometimes 'on is down'. Even little kids know this.

That is like saying there is nothing wrong with driving 70 mph through a school zone because people drive 70 mph all the time. Even little kids see that.

The difference is that a light switch serves an entirely different purpose than a breaker does.

This is what the NEC says and this requirement has been in there for decades: (underlining and bold are mine)
- 240.81 Indicating.
- - Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open “off” or closed “on” position.
- - Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the “up” position of the handle shall be the “on” position.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That is like saying there is nothing wrong with driving 70 mph through a school zone because people drive 70 mph all the time. Even little kids see that.

The difference is that a light switch serves an entirely different purpose than a breaker does.

This is what the NEC says and this requirement has been in there for decades: (underlining and bold are mine)
- 240.81 Indicating.
- - Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open “off” or closed “on” position.
- - Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the “up” position of the handle shall be the “on” position.

You are correct and I cannot argue with the code. Perhaps the AHJ should have stipulated clear markings on the sideways panel which he supposedly examined and approved?

We see this often in old basements, and sometimes it is the only way to fit the long panel in. In this case, it was probably to facilitate connecting a lot of short wires directly to the bus without jumpers. You will see that all the older wiring goes in to the upper bus.
I write it as unconventional, and the new owners learn that "on is down", on the rare ocassions they need to turn the juice off.
Reversed shower taps is worse, IMO.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

You are correct and I cannot argue with the code. Perhaps the AHJ should have stipulated clear markings on the sideways panel which he supposedly examined and approved?

We see this often in old basements, and sometimes it is the only way to fit the long panel in. In this case, it was probably to facilitate connecting a lot of short wires directly to the bus without jumpers. You will see that all the older wiring goes in to the upper bus.
I write it as unconventional, and the new owners learn that "on is down", on the rare ocassions they need to turn the juice off.
Reversed shower taps is worse, IMO.

Writing up something which is acknowledged to be "wrong" as being "unconventional" is a disservice to your clients.

It is "wrong" and should be written up as such.

I used to find a few panel like that installed sideways too, and because of lack of space, which does NOT make it correct, so I always wrote them up for replacement.

Whether or not they get replaced, that is beyond my reach and into my clients reach, *I* advised them it was wrong, *I* cannot (as a home inspector) force anyone to correct anything, *THEY* have total control over what is corrected, but *THEY* cannot come back and say that *I* did not tell *THEM* of the problem.

For two cents, I agree with Jerry Peck.

I don't have every edition of the NEC code, but in a old edition 1987
240-81. Indicating. Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whethr they are
in the open "off" of close "on position.
Where circuit breaker handles on switchboards or in panelboards are
operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the "up" position of the handle shall be the "on" positions.

Now for 3 cents you get this
Section 240-33 Vertical Posistion. Enclosures for overcurrent devices shall be mounted in a vertical position

Exception: Where this is shown to be impracticable and complies with
Section 240-81

Now here one for you; electric hot water heater, voltage 240 is feed two #10 wires rated for 30 amps, the Hot water Heater has a 4,500 watt element. Do you in-install a 2-pole 25 amp breaker or a 2-pole 30 amp breaker.

As Jerry said its all about reading more than just one section of the Code.

Robert

Now here one for you; electric hot water heater, voltage 240 is feed two #10 wires rated for 30 amps, the Hot water Heater has a 4,500 watt element. Do you in-install a 2-pole 25 amp breaker or a 2-pole 30 amp breaker.

30 Amp Breaker maximum. The breaker is based on wire size not load. Breakers and fuses protect wire.

Joe thanks for your answer.

/S/ Robert

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

Now here one for you; electric hot water heater, voltage 240 is feed two #10 wires rated for 30 amps, the Hot water Heater has a 4,500 watt element. Do you in-install a 2-pole 25 amp breaker or a 2-pole 30 amp breaker.

As Joe said, 30 MAXIMUM, the answer to your question is "either".

Jerry thanks for your answer.


/S/ Robert

Following up to my question on Electric Hot Water Heater.

Conductor size and overcurrent protection for a water heater is located in
Article 422 - Appliances (of the NFPA 70 NEC aka: National Electrical Code) I believe Jerry may had used the 2005 edition.



/S/ Robert

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

Following up to my question on Electric Hot Water Heater.

Conductor size and overcurrent protection for a water heater is located in
Article 422 - Appliances (of the NFPA 70 NEC aka: National Electrical Code) I believe Jerry may had used the 2005 edition.



/S/ Robert

Robert,

Not sure what you are saying?????

Are you saying the size is different, the size is the same, the code is different, the code is the same ... ?????

The 2008 NEC simply added the red text to the 2005:
- 422.13 Storage-Type Water Heaters.
- - A fixed storage-type water heater that has a capacity of 450 L (120 gal) or less shall be considered a continuous load for the purposes of sizing branch circuits.

Hi Jerry just getting back to this thread.

4,500 watt water heater element.

#10 conductor wire rated at 30 ampere.

continus load on conductor wire 4,500 WATTS/240 VOLTS = 18.75 amps

then 18.75 x 125% = 23.43 amps

next standard size circuit breaker is 25 amps

Refering to text in a copy of the NEC edition year 1987 Artl 240-6
Standard Breaker.... 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40,....

Electrician in this State, (VT.) have been told not to used 30 amp. breaker
and use the 25.

Okay Jerry I welcome you come back on this subject.

qoute: "the more I learn the less I know"

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

#10 conductor wire rated at 30 ampere.

Electrician in this State, (VT.) have been told not to used 30 amp. breaker
and use the 25.

Why?

Conductor rating = 30 amps.

Overcurrent protection rating = 30 amps.

No problem.

CAN you use a 25 amp breaker, yes.

CAN you use a 30 amp breaker, yes.

Are you ALLOWED to use a 25 amp OR a 30 amp breaker by the NEC, yes.

CAN AHJ make stupid rules, yes.

The breaker is not there to protect the equipment which is connected, the breaker is there to protect the conductors. If otherwise than you would not be able to plug a floor lamp into a 20 amp circuit without changing the breaker to a 15 amp breaker - and that is not ever going to happen.

Hi Jerry just getting back.

"Are you ALLOWED to use a 25 amp or a 30 amp. breaker by the NEC, YES".

I say maybe on the 30 amp. breaker. (please correct me if I am wrong)
Article 422 Appliances, NEC 2005 edition.

Art. 422.11, (F) Single Non-motor-Operated Appliance
(3) Not exceed 150% of the appliance rated current if the
overcurrent protection rating is not marked and the
appliance is rated over 13.3 amperes. Where 150% of
overcurrent device ampere rating, the next higher stand-
ard rating shall be permitted.

Art. 422.13 Storage=Type Water Heaters. A fix storage-type
water heater that has a capacitye 120 gallons or less
shall be conside a continuous load.

Art. 422.10 Branch-Circuit Rating, (A) Individual Circuit. The rating of an
individual branch circuit shall not be less than the marked
rating of an appliance having a combined loads as provide
as provided in 422.62 (motor appliance, doesn't apply here)
...The Branch-Circuit rating for an appliance this is contin-
ously loaded, other than a motor-operated appliance, shall
not be less tha 125% of the mark rating, ........

To note all name plate of storage hot water heater I have look at just
list the wattage size the heating element their using.

Element rated 4500/240 = 18.75 current drawn

18.75 x 125% - 23.44 amperes. NM-B conductor used would be #10.
Yes #10 is rated for 30 amperes. As I said, the next standard size cir-
cuit breaker is 25 amps.

As you said, you could used the maximum overcurrent device for the
water heater: here we use 18.75 amperes x 150% = 38.125 amperes.
Here your said there nothing wrong in using a 30 amperes circuit breaker.
But why use a 30 ampere breaker when I already shown that a 25 ampere
breaker is suitable for the 4,500 watt load.

Jerry you are now wrong. but this what the electrical inspector want,
and this is how they explain it to the electrician I ask.

I do feel how ever I missing something.

As far as ext. cords. Now we have AFCI breakers. Since the MFG. of
ext. cord, perfer now to fuss the male plug-end. Although I think I once
saw a set of x-mass lights, that were fused.

quote: "the more I learn the less I know".

Robert.

From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- ARTICLE 422 Appliances
- - 422.11 Overcurrent Protection.
- - - Appliances shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with 422.11(A) through (G) and 422.10.
- - - - (A) Branch-Circuit Overcurrent Protection. Branch circuits shall be protected in accordance with 240.4.
- - - - - If a protective device rating is marked on an appliance, the branch-circuit overcurrent device rating shall not exceed the protective device rating marked on the appliance. (Jerry's note: There is no "branch-circuit overcurrent device rating" marked on the appliance.)
- - - - (B) Household-Type Appliances with Surface Heating Elements. Household-type appliances with surface heating elements having a maximum demand of more than 60 amperes calculated in accordance with Table 220.55 shall have their power supply subdivided into two or more circuits, each of which shall be provided with overcurrent protection rated at not over 50 amperes. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)
- - - - (C) Infrared Lamp Commercial and Industrial Heating Appliances. Infrared lamp commercial and industrial heating appliances shall have overcurrent protection not exceeding 50 amperes. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)
- - - - (D) Open-Coil or Exposed Sheathed-Coil Types of Surface Heating Elements in Commercial-Type Heating Appliances. Open-coil or exposed sheathed-coil types of surface heating elements in commercial-type heating appliances shall be protected by overcurrent protective devices rated at not over 50 amperes. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)
- - - - (E) Single Non–motor-Operated Appliance. If the branch circuit supplies a single non–motor-operated appliance, the rating of overcurrent protection shall comply with the following:
- - - - - (1) Not exceed that marked on the appliance.
- - - - - (2) Not exceed 20 amperes if the overcurrent protection rating is not marked and the appliance is rated 13.3 amperes or less; or
- - - - - (3) Not exceed 150 percent of the appliance rated current if the overcurrent protection rating is not marked and the appliance is rated over 13.3 amperes. Where 150 percent of the appliance rating does not correspond to a standard overcurrent device ampere rating, the next higher standard rating shall be permitted. (Jerry's note: Robert, you stated "Element rated 4500/240 = 18.75 current drawn" so let's work with that. 18.75 x 1.5 = 28.125, the NEXT HIGHER overcurrent protection rating is 30 amps and is permitted.)
- - - - (F) Electric Heating Appliances Employing Resistance-Type Heating Elements Rated More Than 48 Amperes. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)
- - - - - (1) Electric Heating Appliances. Electric heating appliances employing resistance-type heating elements rated more than 48 amperes, other than household appliances with surface heating elements covered by 422.11(B), and commercial-type heating appliances covered by 422.11(D), shall have the heating elements subdivided. Each subdivided load shall not exceed 48 amperes and shall be protected at not more than 60 amperes.
- - - - - - These supplementary overcurrent protective devices shall be (1) factory-installed within or on the heater enclosure or provided as a separate assembly by the heater manufacturer; (2) accessible; and (3) suitable for branch-circuit protection.
- - - - - - The main conductors supplying these overcurrent protective devices shall be considered branch-circuit conductors.
- - - - - (2) Commercial Kitchen and Cooking Appliances. Commercial kitchen and cooking appliances using sheathed-type heating elements not covered in 422.11(D) shall be permitted to be subdivided into circuits not exceeding 120 amperes and protected at not more than 150 amperes where one of the following is met:
- - - - - - (1) Elements are integral with and enclosed within a cooking surface.
- - - - - - (2) Elements are completely contained within an enclosure identified as suitable for this use.
- - - - - - (3) Elements are contained within an ASME-rated and stamped vessel.
- - - - - (3) Water Heaters and Steam Boilers. Water heaters and steam boilers employing resistance-type immersion electric heating elements contained in an ASME-rated and stamped vessel or listed instantaneous water heaters shall be permitted to be subdivided into circuits not exceeding 120 amperes and protected at not more than 150 amperes.
- - - - (G) Motor-Operated Appliances. Motors of motor-operated appliances shall be provided with overload protection in accordance with Part III of Article 430. Hermetic refrigerant motor-compressors in air-conditioning or refrigerating equipment shall be provided with overload protection in accordance with Part VI of Article 440. Where appliance overcurrent protective devices that are separate from the appliance are required, data for selection of these devices shall be marked on the appliance. The minimum marking shall be that specified in 430.7 and 440.4. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)

That leaves us going to 422.10 and seeing what it says.

- 422.10 Branch-Circuit Rating.
- - This section specifies the ratings of branch circuits capable of carrying appliance current without overheating under the conditions specified.
- - - (A) Individual Circuits. The rating of an individual branch circuit shall not be less than the marked rating of the appliance or the marked rating of an appliance having combined loads as provided in 422.62. (Jerry's note: This section does not apply as there is no overcurrent protection rating on the appliance, however, the "Individual Circuits" part does apply so we must keep reading further.)
- - - - The rating of an individual branch circuit for motor-operated appliances not having a marked rating shall be in accordance with Part II of Article 430. (Jerry's note: This section does not apply as there are no combined ratings and no motor-operated load.)
- - - - The branch-circuit rating for an appliance that is a continuous load, other than a motor-operated appliance, shall not be less than 125 percent of the marked rating, or not less than 100 percent of the marked rating if the branch-circuit device and its assembly are listed for continuous loading at 100 percent of its rating. (Jerry's note: This section does not apply to our search for a MAXIMUM overcurrent protection rating as this establishes a MINIMUM branch-circuit rating.)
- - - - Branch circuits and branch-circuit conductors for household ranges and cooking appliances shall be permitted to be in accordance with Table 220.55 and shall be sized in accordance with 210.19(A)(3). (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)
- - - (B) Circuits Supplying Two or More Loads. For branch circuits supplying appliance and other loads, the rating shall be determined in accordance with 210.23. (Jerry's note: This section is not applicable.)

We end up with 422.10 establishing a MINIMUM branch-circuit rating but not a MAXIMUM overcurrent protection rating, thus we must go back up to 422.11 for the maximum overcurrent protection rating, which was established there.

And so it goes back to the electrical inspector, right or wrong he can be
a real pain in the --s.

Some electrician have been told by inspectors, it their way or else.

"Can't we just get along."

So Jerry, now that we know that a 25 or 30 can be used, and the inspector should just learn to live with it. OFF THE RECORD which one
would you use? On second thought don't answer that.

Many thanks, once again.

/S/ Robert

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

So Jerry, now that we know that a 25 or 30 can be used, and the inspector should just learn to live with it. OFF THE RECORD which one would you use? On second thought don't answer that.

30 amp breaker. ON THE RECORD.