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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Peter,

    Part of what Aaron is trying to do is use humor, which some have missed.

    We are talking about electricians ... i.e., "Sparkys".

    The electric chairs are known as ... (in many cases) ... "Old Sparky".

    Get the tie in?



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    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  2. #67
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    "What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety he makes up in clarity"


  3. #68
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Oh really. Do you really find this that often?
    SP: Alas, yes I do.

    Now why would you want to do that?
    SP: It is called Schadenfreude.

    Or do you only like it when people agree with you?
    SP: I don't care if you agree with me. In fact, it makes it all the more fun if you do not.

    BTW- Which one of us would you like to see in your "electric chair" in #3 ?
    SP: Can I opt for more chairs?

    This is another interesting way of dealing with those that disagree with you.
    SP: Yes, and effective too.


  4. #69
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    "What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety he makes up in clarity"
    MG: I am fond of the phrase.


  5. #70
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    surely you make up a better story


  6. #71
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Ron, my post regarding suit by the seller was in response to Matt's assertion that no problems can come from recommending replacement. Nothing is fool proof!

    I can see it now: (Attorney) Mr. Heiler, you are a HI, is that correct.

    (Me) yes.

    (Attorney) and you recommended replacement of the panel at great cost to Mr. Seller.

    (Me) Yes.

    (Attorney) Are you also a licensed electrician or otherwise specialist in regards to this panel.

    (Me) Uh, no.

    (Attorney) What led you to believe the panel had to be replaced.

    (Me) It had scorch marks at unused locations and someone may try to use those locations.

    (Attorney) Isn't it true that the contacts have been removed from those locations making it impossible to insert breakers there.

    (Me) Yes.

    (Attorney) You say it has scorch marks. My car has a dent in the right front fender, doesn't mean the car is not functioning as intended. Did you as part of your inspection test any of the electrical system, like range, dishwasher, garbage disposal, A/C, etc.

    (Me) Yes.

    (Attorney) And did the panel smoke or burst into flame.

    (Me) No.

    (Attorney) Did you recommend further investigation by a licensed electrician to determine the status of the panel.

    (Me) No.

    (Attorney) Your Honor, Mr. Seller would like to recover the 10K earnest money he lost due to Mr. Heiler practicing outside his license authority.

    Jerry, I do not "WORK FOR" the buyer. I inspect the property and provide an unbiased report of its condition at that time. The buyer has agreed to purchase the report prior to the inspection. My report would be exactly the same for whomever purchased it. That may not be the norm, but it makes it a lot easier than taking sides.
    Say Vern. Let Flip that program.

    I can see it now: (Attorney) Mr. Heiler, you are a HI, is that correct.

    (Me) yes.

    (Attorney) and you did not recommended replacement of the panel at a lest cost to Mr. Seller.

    (Me) Yes.

    (Attorney) Are you also a licensed electrician or otherwise specialist in
    regards to this panel.

    (Me) Uh, no.

    (Attorney) What led you to believe the panel did not need to be replaced
    .

    (Me) The sellers Electrical contractor had just fix everything
    so the scorch marks are a not a big deal.

    (Attorney) And now that the panel went up in smoke and burst into flames and the complete home is gone .

    (Me) OUCH .

    (Attorney) Your Honor, Mr. Seller would like to recover the THE 510K money he lost due to the fire damage of his new home.



    I would call for the panel to be replaced Vern.
    Just as I have done in the past and it has never come back at me.

    I took Photos of a panel like this to the City of Windsors Fire Dept
    and told them that I have been finding Chalenger panels in the city that have scorch marks in them at the main breakers. this information was then sent to the building dept and is being look into.

    So what if this was information that no one was to see but the buyer and me. It just may save a life...

    I did what I did and I Sleep at night just fine.

    Best

    Ron


  7. #72
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    surely you make up a better story
    MG: You mean a better quote for my signature?

    OK, "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member."

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  8. #73
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    OH i'm sure they would accept you in a heartbeat


  9. #74
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    I did what I did and I Sleep at night just fine.







  10. #75
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    OH i'm sure they would accept you in a heartbeat
    MG: They can't afford me. Neither can you.


  11. #76
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Ron, I did not state the panel should not be replaced. I recommended further evaluation by a licensed (presumed competent) professional. The NC Licensure Board frowns on HI's overstepping there license. I as most likely all would prefer replacement, but don't have a hard-case reason to say nothing else will do.


  12. #77
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    MG: You mean a better quote for my signature?

    OK, "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member."
    Continuing with Groucho Marx:
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
    "I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #78
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Continuing with Groucho Marx:
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
    "I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member."
    JP: He was a very funny man!


  14. #79
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    A.D. afford you?Now the Marx Brothers,THEY are funny


  15. #80
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    MG: This clip is you.

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  16. #81
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    come on now A.D. It's like amateur hour at the comedy club.Don't you have anything funny and original.My border collie makes more sense and is a lot more amusing


  17. #82
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    come on now A.D. It's like amateur hour at the comedy club.Don't you have anything funny and original.My border collie makes more sense and is a lot more amusing
    MG: The good stuff costs money. At the risk of repeating myself, you simply cannot afford me.

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  18. #83
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    I see there is a cut and paste book for dummies,must be in the childrens section


  19. #84
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    John, a few questions:

    1 - What amperage is the the breaker that was installed lower in the panel? I can't tell from the 2nd pic due to the angle.
    It's a 30 A branch circuit, with some smoke damage to the numbers.
    2 - Does the panel still have one main shut-off served by the new breaker? I'm wondering whether or not this panel still deenergizes in 6 throws of the hand or less.
    There's no main brkr, not required in a condo in my area. Also, you can catch a lot of breakers with 6 sweeps.
    3 - Is it a new service cable that runs to the new main breaker? If so, what is going on with the service cables still attached to the top of the hot bus bar?
    No change to the service.

    So far, the HI's are calling for a new panel before the place burns down, the electricians are non-committal. An electrician will check it and make the call.


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    I see there is a cut and paste book for dummies,must be in the childrens section
    MG: So then, as you appear to be the self-anointed arbiter of all that is creative, humorous, and I dare say, culturally stimulating, please take the stage. Dazzle us with your razor wit.

    Cut this. Paste that.


  21. #86
    James Foy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Wow, that's incredibly racist.


  22. #87
    James Foy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Does anyone see a main disconnect on this panel? I certainly don't, I am assuming it is what belongs at the burnt spot. Recommend replacing the panel, if it's just the bars, the panel can be replaced w/o replacing the enclosure


  23. #88
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    Wow, that's incredibly racist.
    JF: Only a racist would look at it that way.


  24. #89
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    Does anyone see a main disconnect on this panel? I certainly don't, I am assuming it is what belongs at the burnt spot. Recommend replacing the panel, if it's just the bars, the panel can be replaced w/o replacing the enclosure

    James,

    That is not service equipment, just a panel.

    No main disconnect required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  25. #90
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    Wow, that's incredibly racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JF: Only a racist would look at it that way.

    James,

    I noticed the same thing, but also understood the reason Aaron used that - as I explained in a post to Peter above - because we are talking about Sparkys and that is Old Sparky itself.


    Aaron,

    Nope. I, and I am sure others, noticed the same thing James did. I, and I am sure the others too, am not racist.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  26. #91
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    but maybe using the the ol'sparky poster was not a great idea and maybe we should finish on a pleasant note.The original post was what?Have a great day guys,hope the market picks up.


  27. #92
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    James,

    I noticed the same thing, but also understood the reason Aaron used that - as I explained in a post to Peter above - because we are talking about Sparkys and that is Old Sparky itself.


    Aaron,

    Nope. I, and I am sure others, noticed the same thing James did. I, and I am sure the others too, am not racist.
    JP: The term "racist" denotes one who practices racism, or the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

    Can we agree on the definitions?

    In order to determine if a person is a racist, I would assume that you would either have to know that person's thoughts and intentions on an intimate level, or, at a minimum, be able to determine this proclivity from a pattern of behavior.

    None of you knows me well enough to make such a cockeyed snap judgment, and I have not exhibited a pattern that might lead one to think that way of me.

    I loathe the fact that anyone could be so prejudiced as to concoct, based upon the posting of vintage signage, the purpose for which was clearly evident to all but the insanely asinine, that I am a racist.

    Damn all of you who fall into that category. Goddamn you with EXTREME prejudice!

    If that is not clear enough for any of you you can take this off line at my email address.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 07-27-2009 at 08:19 AM.

  28. #93
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    None of you knows me well enough to make such a cockeyed snap judgment, and I have not exhibited a pattern that might lead one to think that way of me.

    I loathe the fact that anyone could be so prejudiced as to concoct, based upon the posting of vintage signage, the purpose for which was clearly evident to all but the insanely asinine, that I am a racist.

    Damn all of you who fall into that category. Goddamn you with prejudice!


    Aaron,

    Ummmm ... you need to calm down and get hold of yourself ... no one called YOU a racist, on that THE ITEM you posted was racist.

    Look at THAT ITEM and you will see, should readily see, what is being referred to.

    Take a deep breath, hold it ... hold it ... hold it ... ... now slowly exhale - SLOWLY DANG IT!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  29. #94
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Ummmm ... you need to calm down and get hold of yourself ... no one called YOU a racist, on that THE ITEM you posted was racist.

    Look at THAT ITEM and you will see, should readily see, what is being referred to.

    Take a deep breath, hold it ... hold it ... hold it ... ... now slowly exhale - SLOWLY DANG IT!
    JP: It has been my experience in this life that people only see what they want to see. One can "see the world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower", or just dirt and weeds.

    For those who see the latter in my post, may your rest under the dirt and fertilize the weeds. The sooner the better. Make haste!


  30. #95
    Leigh Goodman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    "For those who see the latter in my post, may your rest under the dirt and fertilize the weeds. The sooner the better. Make haste!"

    That quote is just ugly


  31. #96
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: It has been my experience in this life that people only see what they want to see.
    It has been my experience that people also see what they are shown.

    When in a crowed stands at a basketball game it is not hard to see what someone does not want to see when someone streaks across the court buck naked.

    NO WAY do I want to see that, but, alas, sometimes there is no choice until it is too late.

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  32. #97
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    That quote is just ugly
    LG: In the eyes of the beholder.

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  33. #98
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It has been my experience that people also see what they are shown.

    When in a crowed stands at a basketball game it is not hard to see what someone does not want to see when someone streaks across the court buck naked.

    NO WAY do I want to see that, but, alas, sometimes there is no choice until it is too late.
    JP Just WTF do you want from me anyhow? I deleted the GD post to appease the purient interests of the holier than thou on this forum. What else would you have me do, master?


  34. #99
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    JP: And, I might add, that James Foy, my most outspoken critic in this issue, was so offended that he chose to post an even larger version of the graphic in question. It is now on his post, not mine, and rightly so.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 07-27-2009 at 09:12 AM.

  35. #100
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Prurient adj. 1. having or expressing lustful ideas or desires. 2. tending to excite lust; lascivious; lewd. 3.(rare) itching

    Just what are we being accused of when our interest is described as prurient?

    AD:"It has been my experience in this life that people only see what they want to see." You are a people. According to you, then, YOU only see what you want to see.


  36. #101
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh Goodman View Post
    Prurient adj. 1. having or expressing lustful ideas or desires. 2. tending to excite lust; lascivious; lewd. 3.(rare) itching

    Just what are we being accused of when our interest is described as prurient?

    AD:"It has been my experience in this life that people only see what they want to see." You are a people. According to you, then, YOU only see what you want to see.
    LG: I own more dictionaries than you do books. But, to answer your question, it is when arbitrarily calling someone a racist causes your loins to quiver.

    Clear enough, or do you need more graphic details?


  37. #102
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP Just WTF do you want from me anyhow? I deleted the GD post to appease the purient interests of the holier than thou on this forum. What else would you have me do, master?
    Aaron,

    Did you take your meds this morning?

    I ordered the refill myself for you.

    Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, *I* was only commenting on, and expanding on, *YOUR* comment on life experience and observations at to what people see, pointing out that people see more than "just what they want to see".

    *I* am not asking you to do anything.

    As you are fond of saying yourself ... I thinks he doth protest too much.

    Chill. Take your meds.

    By the way, you mis-spelled "purient".

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  38. #103
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Did you take your meds this morning?
    JP: I only do evening meds. It is too early.

    I ordered the refill myself for you.
    JP: Patron or what?

    By the way, you mis-spelled "purient".
    JP: Agitation leads to no spellcheckation.


  39. #104
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    I don't claim to know anyone's mindset here on the forum. But in the illustration posted, I don't see anything different in the actions of the people in the illustration, I merely see the execution of a black by whites as 'correct' and an execution of a white by blacks as 'incorrect'. Maybe they're just making an analogy of hooking up the conductors backwards and I'm not getting the joke. I really didn't think this would spawn that much of a protest. Reading the posts, I don't see an explanation of the drawing, other than it belonged to the company. Perhaps there is nothing to it, or perhaps the artist was making a racist joke that wasn't likely to be spotted. If someone has a good explanation of the artwork, I'd love to know.

    On the panel: I thought that at >6 throws we needed a disconnect in that panel, whether it was a main or not.


  40. #105
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Perhaps there is nothing to it
    JF: Now you are on the right track. Please take one step further, go back and delete your post prominently displaying the offending graphic, and voila, this issue can be put to rest . . .


  41. #106
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Heck, I saved the graphic to my computer, so I can run it by a few old electricians I know. It reminds me of the 'Mammy' pottery. I can't delete my post until I get a satisfactory answer on the intent of the artist, but I will happily take responsibility for allowing it to remain on site and take any censorship from the site administration that they deem appropriate.


  42. #107
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    I can't delete my post until I get a satisfactory answer on the intent of the artist, but I will happily take responsibility for allowing it to remain on site and take any censorship from the site administration that they deem appropriate
    JF: So then, you would perpetuate the myth that you have honorable intentions.

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  43. #108
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    quote:LG: I own more dictionaries than you do books.

    You have no idea how many books I have. You just make stuff up. Once you are caught making up stuff to advance your argument your entire testimony can be discredited.


  44. #109
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Who started the myth of me having honorable intentions? Certainly not me. The artwork goes with my collection of 'Gaelic-sheep-bestiality' jokes for stereotypes and racism. Pointing out the racism in picture is no different to me than pointing out the phallus on the cover of Disney's "The Little Mermaid", it's there, though some people may choose not to see it.


  45. #110
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh Goodman View Post
    quote:LG: I own more dictionaries than you do books.

    You have no idea how many books I have. You just make stuff up. Once you are caught making up stuff to advance your argument your entire testimony can be discredited.
    LG: Grow up.


  46. #111
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    Who started the myth of me having honorable intentions? Certainly not me. The artwork goes with my collection of 'Gaelic-sheep-bestiality' jokes for stereotypes and racism. Pointing out the racism in picture is no different to me than pointing out the phallus on the cover of Disney's "The Little Mermaid", it's there, though some people may choose not to see it.
    JF: Whatever sick crap trips your trigger. Be my guest.


  47. #112
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    grow up? now that is funny


  48. #113
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    I can't delete my post until I get a satisfactory answer on the intent of the artist,
    Now THAT is sad.

    YOU "can't delete" your post until you "get a satisfactory answer" from the artist, who most likely has been dead a long time.

    YOU, obviously, cannot take responsibility for YOUR actions, while at the same time calling Aaron on his actions.

    Any contempt you had and exhibited toward Aaron for posting it is now totally erased and you have left yourself holding the bag for no other reason than "YOU WANT TO".

    How sad that is and how sad it much be to be you.

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  49. #114
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh Goodman View Post
    "For those who see the latter in my post, may your rest under the dirt and fertilize the weeds. The sooner the better. Make haste!"

    That quote is just ugly
    I have come to realize after reading more than enough of his posts that the individual in question is indeed ugly, on the inside that is. I really don't care what the outside looks like.

    With that I am done with this train wreck of a thread. Whatever redeeming educational value it might have had is long gone.

    Aaron, I am sure you will reply with some demeaning or insulting comment of your own, but I will not honor it with a reply of my own.


  50. #115
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I have come to realize after reading more than enough of his posts that the individual in question is indeed ugly, on the inside that is. I really don't care what the outside looks like.

    With that I am done with this train wreck of a thread. Whatever redeeming educational value it might have had is long gone.

    Aaron, I am sure you will reply with some demeaning or insulting comment of your own, but I will not honor it with a reply of my own.
    So then, we can bid a fond adieu to the Joe the Plumber wannabee.


  51. #116
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?




  52. #117
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    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Yes, I would change out this panel, for the simple reason that the damage to the bus bars occurred at the top of the panel, upstream from the rest of the load. I am not a mettallurgist or an engineer of any kind, but it's only common sense that if all the load is downstream of the damage, you're asking for trouble by leaving it as it is. The addition of another breaker is just a band-aid fix.


  53. #118
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    Location
    N. Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    36

    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Yes, I would change out the panel for the simple reason that the damage to the bus bars occurred upstream of the load. Adding a breaker was only a band-aid fix. Leaving it is only asking for trouble down the road. Replacing just the bus bars would save some labor cost, assuming that the part was available.


  54. #119
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    N. Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    36

    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    Oops. I sent two. My bad.


  55. #120
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    117

    Default Re: Would you change this panel?

    John,
    I would definitely say it should go (w/o reading all of the above threads by the way). The burn mark on the buss makes it unsafe and a potential fire hazard.

    RJDalga
    http://homeanalysts.com
    Kalamazoo, MI

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